Why doesn't the EU now just force the UK to choose between referendum and no-deal?
Since May has proven incompetent to get a deal through, there are now two alternatives left: no-deal, or an article 50 extension (which would then lead to further deals being put on the table, or possibly a referendum).
Clearly, the EU would prefer a new referendum, which, most experts predict, would lead to remain winning this time (they only lost marginally last time around, and given what a failure Brexit has been, it is obvious to think that Remain would win if a referendum was held now).
However, if they agree to a article 50 extension, it is not guaranteed that a new referendum is held: in fact, May might offer a new deal that is accepted.
With that in mind, why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?
Clearly, this would lead to a referendum being held: nobody wants a no-deal.
This seems like the only sensible thing to do from the EU's perspective, yet I am not hearing anything in the news about it?
brexit
New contributor
|
show 3 more comments
Since May has proven incompetent to get a deal through, there are now two alternatives left: no-deal, or an article 50 extension (which would then lead to further deals being put on the table, or possibly a referendum).
Clearly, the EU would prefer a new referendum, which, most experts predict, would lead to remain winning this time (they only lost marginally last time around, and given what a failure Brexit has been, it is obvious to think that Remain would win if a referendum was held now).
However, if they agree to a article 50 extension, it is not guaranteed that a new referendum is held: in fact, May might offer a new deal that is accepted.
With that in mind, why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?
Clearly, this would lead to a referendum being held: nobody wants a no-deal.
This seems like the only sensible thing to do from the EU's perspective, yet I am not hearing anything in the news about it?
brexit
New contributor
36
Given how a major factor in Brexit was "We don't want the EU ordering us around anymore", I dread to think how apocalyptically furious the Brexiteers would be at such a threat.
– F1Krazy
6 hours ago
10
What makes you think that "nobody wants a no-deal"?
– Michal Paszkiewicz
5 hours ago
1
@F1Krazy - I'm not sure we need to worry too much about whether the True Believers in Brexit will be 'furious'; they are probably a relatively small fraction of the population. To most people it was more a gesture of defiance which had relatively little to do with EU, is my impression. We have all enjoyed things like not having to get an international passport, being able to import stuff without restrictions etc - even if we didn't realise; many things bought on Amazon, for example, are shipped from outside UK. Most likely what people would say now, is 'never mind, it's too much trouble...'
– j4nd3r53n
3 hours ago
1
“given what a failure Brexit has been”. CORRECTION: you mean given what a failure the negotiations have been. Brexit hasn’t happened yet. You can’t say whether it has been a success or a failure. Most Leavers would still vote Leave, and for the same reasons - but just wish for a better negotiation strategy.
– Chris Melville
3 hours ago
1
MPs have voted by 312 to 308 to reject leaving the EU without a withdrawal agreement.. It only takes 3 MPs to change their mind and there is a majority for leaving without a deal. Your premise that nobody wants to leave without a deal is false.
– gerrit
21 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
Since May has proven incompetent to get a deal through, there are now two alternatives left: no-deal, or an article 50 extension (which would then lead to further deals being put on the table, or possibly a referendum).
Clearly, the EU would prefer a new referendum, which, most experts predict, would lead to remain winning this time (they only lost marginally last time around, and given what a failure Brexit has been, it is obvious to think that Remain would win if a referendum was held now).
However, if they agree to a article 50 extension, it is not guaranteed that a new referendum is held: in fact, May might offer a new deal that is accepted.
With that in mind, why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?
Clearly, this would lead to a referendum being held: nobody wants a no-deal.
This seems like the only sensible thing to do from the EU's perspective, yet I am not hearing anything in the news about it?
brexit
New contributor
Since May has proven incompetent to get a deal through, there are now two alternatives left: no-deal, or an article 50 extension (which would then lead to further deals being put on the table, or possibly a referendum).
Clearly, the EU would prefer a new referendum, which, most experts predict, would lead to remain winning this time (they only lost marginally last time around, and given what a failure Brexit has been, it is obvious to think that Remain would win if a referendum was held now).
However, if they agree to a article 50 extension, it is not guaranteed that a new referendum is held: in fact, May might offer a new deal that is accepted.
With that in mind, why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?
Clearly, this would lead to a referendum being held: nobody wants a no-deal.
This seems like the only sensible thing to do from the EU's perspective, yet I am not hearing anything in the news about it?
brexit
brexit
New contributor
New contributor
New contributor
asked 6 hours ago
alienfootsoldeiralienfootsoldeir
643
643
New contributor
New contributor
36
Given how a major factor in Brexit was "We don't want the EU ordering us around anymore", I dread to think how apocalyptically furious the Brexiteers would be at such a threat.
– F1Krazy
6 hours ago
10
What makes you think that "nobody wants a no-deal"?
– Michal Paszkiewicz
5 hours ago
1
@F1Krazy - I'm not sure we need to worry too much about whether the True Believers in Brexit will be 'furious'; they are probably a relatively small fraction of the population. To most people it was more a gesture of defiance which had relatively little to do with EU, is my impression. We have all enjoyed things like not having to get an international passport, being able to import stuff without restrictions etc - even if we didn't realise; many things bought on Amazon, for example, are shipped from outside UK. Most likely what people would say now, is 'never mind, it's too much trouble...'
– j4nd3r53n
3 hours ago
1
“given what a failure Brexit has been”. CORRECTION: you mean given what a failure the negotiations have been. Brexit hasn’t happened yet. You can’t say whether it has been a success or a failure. Most Leavers would still vote Leave, and for the same reasons - but just wish for a better negotiation strategy.
– Chris Melville
3 hours ago
1
MPs have voted by 312 to 308 to reject leaving the EU without a withdrawal agreement.. It only takes 3 MPs to change their mind and there is a majority for leaving without a deal. Your premise that nobody wants to leave without a deal is false.
– gerrit
21 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
36
Given how a major factor in Brexit was "We don't want the EU ordering us around anymore", I dread to think how apocalyptically furious the Brexiteers would be at such a threat.
– F1Krazy
6 hours ago
10
What makes you think that "nobody wants a no-deal"?
– Michal Paszkiewicz
5 hours ago
1
@F1Krazy - I'm not sure we need to worry too much about whether the True Believers in Brexit will be 'furious'; they are probably a relatively small fraction of the population. To most people it was more a gesture of defiance which had relatively little to do with EU, is my impression. We have all enjoyed things like not having to get an international passport, being able to import stuff without restrictions etc - even if we didn't realise; many things bought on Amazon, for example, are shipped from outside UK. Most likely what people would say now, is 'never mind, it's too much trouble...'
– j4nd3r53n
3 hours ago
1
“given what a failure Brexit has been”. CORRECTION: you mean given what a failure the negotiations have been. Brexit hasn’t happened yet. You can’t say whether it has been a success or a failure. Most Leavers would still vote Leave, and for the same reasons - but just wish for a better negotiation strategy.
– Chris Melville
3 hours ago
1
MPs have voted by 312 to 308 to reject leaving the EU without a withdrawal agreement.. It only takes 3 MPs to change their mind and there is a majority for leaving without a deal. Your premise that nobody wants to leave without a deal is false.
– gerrit
21 mins ago
36
36
Given how a major factor in Brexit was "We don't want the EU ordering us around anymore", I dread to think how apocalyptically furious the Brexiteers would be at such a threat.
– F1Krazy
6 hours ago
Given how a major factor in Brexit was "We don't want the EU ordering us around anymore", I dread to think how apocalyptically furious the Brexiteers would be at such a threat.
– F1Krazy
6 hours ago
10
10
What makes you think that "nobody wants a no-deal"?
– Michal Paszkiewicz
5 hours ago
What makes you think that "nobody wants a no-deal"?
– Michal Paszkiewicz
5 hours ago
1
1
@F1Krazy - I'm not sure we need to worry too much about whether the True Believers in Brexit will be 'furious'; they are probably a relatively small fraction of the population. To most people it was more a gesture of defiance which had relatively little to do with EU, is my impression. We have all enjoyed things like not having to get an international passport, being able to import stuff without restrictions etc - even if we didn't realise; many things bought on Amazon, for example, are shipped from outside UK. Most likely what people would say now, is 'never mind, it's too much trouble...'
– j4nd3r53n
3 hours ago
@F1Krazy - I'm not sure we need to worry too much about whether the True Believers in Brexit will be 'furious'; they are probably a relatively small fraction of the population. To most people it was more a gesture of defiance which had relatively little to do with EU, is my impression. We have all enjoyed things like not having to get an international passport, being able to import stuff without restrictions etc - even if we didn't realise; many things bought on Amazon, for example, are shipped from outside UK. Most likely what people would say now, is 'never mind, it's too much trouble...'
– j4nd3r53n
3 hours ago
1
1
“given what a failure Brexit has been”. CORRECTION: you mean given what a failure the negotiations have been. Brexit hasn’t happened yet. You can’t say whether it has been a success or a failure. Most Leavers would still vote Leave, and for the same reasons - but just wish for a better negotiation strategy.
– Chris Melville
3 hours ago
“given what a failure Brexit has been”. CORRECTION: you mean given what a failure the negotiations have been. Brexit hasn’t happened yet. You can’t say whether it has been a success or a failure. Most Leavers would still vote Leave, and for the same reasons - but just wish for a better negotiation strategy.
– Chris Melville
3 hours ago
1
1
MPs have voted by 312 to 308 to reject leaving the EU without a withdrawal agreement.. It only takes 3 MPs to change their mind and there is a majority for leaving without a deal. Your premise that nobody wants to leave without a deal is false.
– gerrit
21 mins ago
MPs have voted by 312 to 308 to reject leaving the EU without a withdrawal agreement.. It only takes 3 MPs to change their mind and there is a majority for leaving without a deal. Your premise that nobody wants to leave without a deal is false.
– gerrit
21 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
Clearly, the EU would prefer a new referendum
[citation needed]
May might offer a new deal that is accepted
The EU would have to approve it, and they've already been as clear as possible that this is the deal that has been negotiated. It is possible that if a new government was elected with a different mandate for a radically different deal, that would be worth exploring.
Clearly, this would lead to a referendum being held: nobody wants a no-deal.
Far from obvious: there definitely is a UK no-deal faction in parliament.
Also, what if they hold a referendum and the answer comes back as Leave? Nothing has been solved but more time has been wasted.
No, what's happening here is that the EU is forcing the UK to make a decision. It has to ask for an extension first, and present an offer that would result in some material change to the negotiation position. A referendum is only one of various options for that - fresh elections would also count, as would a change of PM without an election by means of a no-confidence vote. Crucially, to avoid timewasting, whatever the UK presents has to be acceptable firstly to the UK Parliament.
Edit: see Verhofstadt "The European Union should reject a request from Britain to extend its Brexit deadline unless British lawmakers rally around a clear objective for what they want to achieve".
As the comment says, trying to directly order around the UK political process would be unpopular. So they're trying hard to not specify a route out of the impasse, instead forcing the UK political factions to fight among themselves until a conclusion is produced.
12
Isn't one of the reasons things took so long, and which is oft-mentioned here, that the UK government doesn't have a mandate for any specific way forward, just a cobbled together mandate for exiting the EU made from fundamentally incompatible (sometimes even self-contradictory) pieces?
– Deduplicator
5 hours ago
2
Exactly. The whole thing has been conducted in a grossly incoherent manner.
– pjc50
5 hours ago
2
Well, "mandate" is not defined in UK law (for better or worse), and so it tends to mean whatever a politician both wants it to mean and can persuade a relevant audience that it does mean -- either the public or fellow party members depending on the question and situation.
– terry-s
2 hours ago
1
Well, you're operating on the principle that the Labour party are interested in a deal. My feeling is that they'd find a reason to not vote for any deal because it suits their purpose to make the situation look more chaotic.
– Valorum
25 mins ago
add a comment |
The EU could indeed threaten to only allow an extension if it was used for a second referendum, but there is a risk that some British people would take exception to being forced into that course of action (by the failings of their own representatives!) and vote to leave with no deal, an outcome the EU wishes to avoid.
Basically the EU doesn't want to play into brexiteers claims about it being undemocratic and trying to force the UK to do what it wants, by forcing the UK to do what it wants.
add a comment |
With that in mind, why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?
Because that's not in the best interest of the EU.
The EU doesn't want a second referendum. The EU wants the UK to make up its mind, and to make it up soon. A referendum does neither. If there is a referendum, whatever the outcome is, people will disagree on what the outcome means. Furthermore, you cannot have a referendum on a very short notice. Apart from logistics, a proper democracy demands there to be time for people to campaign; the public must get the opportunity to make up their minds. So you need time.
But the European elections are near the horizon. Europe will not have time to negotiate with the UK afterwards. There will be a new parliament, and a new commission has to be formed. Remember the UK lost valuable time when May called elections? It's something like that, except that forming a new commission takes much longer. Juncker will be replaced.
For the EU to agree on an extension, the UK must present a plan which can be used to build upon. A referendum is too much uncertainty. And remember, the UK will only be granted an extension if all of the 27 countries agree. A while Germany is very likely to go a long way to avoid a no-deal Brexit, even at huge costs, others (like France) are ready to take their losses and see more value in just moving on.
And beside that, the EU doesn't like to threaten. Whatever the differences it has, it always, always takes into account "we need each other tomorrow". Threats are not part of that.
"The EU wants the UK to make up its mind" -> that's the perfect answer. Remember that Parliament is sovereign and doesn't need another referendum to make a decision. All they have to do is pick one option and stick to it.
– JonathanReez
20 mins ago
add a comment |
"Why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?"
In my experience the EU operates quite legalistically, and EU functionaries wish to refrain from doing things outside its range of established legal competences (or, if one is being cynical: they wish at least not to be seen to do such things).
One of the areas outside EU legal competences is the internal affairs and constitutional actions of member states -- insofar as EU law is not violated by the conduct of such affairs and actions.
So I believe this would be a simple explanation for the reluctance or restraint -- whichever it may be - shown by representatives of EU organs in promoting action to resolve the UK/EU impasse. They can and may encourage the UK to come to some decision about what it wants at the level of its relation with (currently) the rest of the EU, but it is not within their remit to promote particular political actions within the UK.
I have to refrain from putting a value judgment on this right now. I suppose that when it gets to be time for hindsight, then the judgment will depend on currently-unknowable factors in the outcome, yet to appear. But it might not be very long now before we get to know, for better or for worse!
New contributor
1
+1 This is for sure an important point. In the EU, every member is sovereign, so the the EU as such does not have the right to request a new referendum or anything else that can only be an internal affair.
– rexkogitans
2 hours ago
add a comment |
- Many EU leaders and spokespersons say that they would like the UK to stay. I find those statements credible. Many EU leaders also express their exasperation with UK politics and they do not want the UK to stay at any cost.
- Extending the Article 50 negotiations beyond the next EU elections will be difficult. Extending them into the next multi-annual financial framework will be extremely difficult. There is little faith that a few weeks would result in a stable majority for a solution in the UK.
- The UK has held a brexit referendum in 1975 and another in 2016. In between there were rebates, opt-outs, and so on. If the UK were to stay by a narrow margin, the next referendum would be much sooner than 40 years from now. So what would be won by forcing the UK to stay a little longer?
2
After this horrific mess I guarantee any leader even mentioning the idea of another referendum gets kicked out faster than DC resigning after he lost the vote!
– Tim B
3 hours ago
add a comment |
The EU's position (insofar as an organization that is an organization of organizations has a position) is that the negotiated terms are those that the UK can take.
If they don't take those terms, the EU's position is that the UK is legally allowed to leave the EU or stay in the EU under EU law.
The EU appears to be willing to let the UK choose between those 3 choices.
In the event that the UK leaves the EU with no deal, there are "territorial"-ish disputes between EU states and the UK that will no longer be as resolved as they where under the EU framework. These include Gibralter (Spain-UK disagreement) and Northern Ireland (Ireland-UK-IRA disagreement, settled by Good Friday accords).
So in some sense, the EU doesn't want a no-deal Brexit, because it wants those disputes to remain settled.
The EU has also made clear that if the UK wants to stay in the EU, existing deals involving special status for the UK (where it can opt out of things) may no longer be on the table.
The EU has also made it clear that it is uninterested in reopening the current Brexit deal barring major concessions by the UK on matters of substance.
How the UK resolves these issues is up to the UK. They can have another referendum ("Do you want to accept the current Brexit deal (a), or stay in the EU (b)?" or "Do you want to accept the current Brexit deal(a), or no-deal Brexit(b)?" for a 2 question version, or a 3 question version "Current Brexit deal (a), No-deal Brexit (b), stay in EU (c)?", or a 2x2 version "Do you want to Brexit (1) or not (2)? If we do Brexit, do you want to accept current deal (a) or no-deal (b)?") to "settle" the issue if the UK chooses, they could have a snap election and have the new parlaiment decide, they could remove the oath requirement of Parlaiment and sit the 7 Sien Fein MPs and swing the balance of power, but that isn't the EU's problem.
Do you have a source for The EU has also made clear that if the UK wants to stay in the EU, existing deals involving special status for the UK (where it can opt out of things) may no longer be on the table. ?
– gerrit
26 mins ago
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "475"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
alienfootsoldeir is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fpolitics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f39363%2fwhy-doesnt-the-eu-now-just-force-the-uk-to-choose-between-referendum-and-no-dea%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Clearly, the EU would prefer a new referendum
[citation needed]
May might offer a new deal that is accepted
The EU would have to approve it, and they've already been as clear as possible that this is the deal that has been negotiated. It is possible that if a new government was elected with a different mandate for a radically different deal, that would be worth exploring.
Clearly, this would lead to a referendum being held: nobody wants a no-deal.
Far from obvious: there definitely is a UK no-deal faction in parliament.
Also, what if they hold a referendum and the answer comes back as Leave? Nothing has been solved but more time has been wasted.
No, what's happening here is that the EU is forcing the UK to make a decision. It has to ask for an extension first, and present an offer that would result in some material change to the negotiation position. A referendum is only one of various options for that - fresh elections would also count, as would a change of PM without an election by means of a no-confidence vote. Crucially, to avoid timewasting, whatever the UK presents has to be acceptable firstly to the UK Parliament.
Edit: see Verhofstadt "The European Union should reject a request from Britain to extend its Brexit deadline unless British lawmakers rally around a clear objective for what they want to achieve".
As the comment says, trying to directly order around the UK political process would be unpopular. So they're trying hard to not specify a route out of the impasse, instead forcing the UK political factions to fight among themselves until a conclusion is produced.
12
Isn't one of the reasons things took so long, and which is oft-mentioned here, that the UK government doesn't have a mandate for any specific way forward, just a cobbled together mandate for exiting the EU made from fundamentally incompatible (sometimes even self-contradictory) pieces?
– Deduplicator
5 hours ago
2
Exactly. The whole thing has been conducted in a grossly incoherent manner.
– pjc50
5 hours ago
2
Well, "mandate" is not defined in UK law (for better or worse), and so it tends to mean whatever a politician both wants it to mean and can persuade a relevant audience that it does mean -- either the public or fellow party members depending on the question and situation.
– terry-s
2 hours ago
1
Well, you're operating on the principle that the Labour party are interested in a deal. My feeling is that they'd find a reason to not vote for any deal because it suits their purpose to make the situation look more chaotic.
– Valorum
25 mins ago
add a comment |
Clearly, the EU would prefer a new referendum
[citation needed]
May might offer a new deal that is accepted
The EU would have to approve it, and they've already been as clear as possible that this is the deal that has been negotiated. It is possible that if a new government was elected with a different mandate for a radically different deal, that would be worth exploring.
Clearly, this would lead to a referendum being held: nobody wants a no-deal.
Far from obvious: there definitely is a UK no-deal faction in parliament.
Also, what if they hold a referendum and the answer comes back as Leave? Nothing has been solved but more time has been wasted.
No, what's happening here is that the EU is forcing the UK to make a decision. It has to ask for an extension first, and present an offer that would result in some material change to the negotiation position. A referendum is only one of various options for that - fresh elections would also count, as would a change of PM without an election by means of a no-confidence vote. Crucially, to avoid timewasting, whatever the UK presents has to be acceptable firstly to the UK Parliament.
Edit: see Verhofstadt "The European Union should reject a request from Britain to extend its Brexit deadline unless British lawmakers rally around a clear objective for what they want to achieve".
As the comment says, trying to directly order around the UK political process would be unpopular. So they're trying hard to not specify a route out of the impasse, instead forcing the UK political factions to fight among themselves until a conclusion is produced.
12
Isn't one of the reasons things took so long, and which is oft-mentioned here, that the UK government doesn't have a mandate for any specific way forward, just a cobbled together mandate for exiting the EU made from fundamentally incompatible (sometimes even self-contradictory) pieces?
– Deduplicator
5 hours ago
2
Exactly. The whole thing has been conducted in a grossly incoherent manner.
– pjc50
5 hours ago
2
Well, "mandate" is not defined in UK law (for better or worse), and so it tends to mean whatever a politician both wants it to mean and can persuade a relevant audience that it does mean -- either the public or fellow party members depending on the question and situation.
– terry-s
2 hours ago
1
Well, you're operating on the principle that the Labour party are interested in a deal. My feeling is that they'd find a reason to not vote for any deal because it suits their purpose to make the situation look more chaotic.
– Valorum
25 mins ago
add a comment |
Clearly, the EU would prefer a new referendum
[citation needed]
May might offer a new deal that is accepted
The EU would have to approve it, and they've already been as clear as possible that this is the deal that has been negotiated. It is possible that if a new government was elected with a different mandate for a radically different deal, that would be worth exploring.
Clearly, this would lead to a referendum being held: nobody wants a no-deal.
Far from obvious: there definitely is a UK no-deal faction in parliament.
Also, what if they hold a referendum and the answer comes back as Leave? Nothing has been solved but more time has been wasted.
No, what's happening here is that the EU is forcing the UK to make a decision. It has to ask for an extension first, and present an offer that would result in some material change to the negotiation position. A referendum is only one of various options for that - fresh elections would also count, as would a change of PM without an election by means of a no-confidence vote. Crucially, to avoid timewasting, whatever the UK presents has to be acceptable firstly to the UK Parliament.
Edit: see Verhofstadt "The European Union should reject a request from Britain to extend its Brexit deadline unless British lawmakers rally around a clear objective for what they want to achieve".
As the comment says, trying to directly order around the UK political process would be unpopular. So they're trying hard to not specify a route out of the impasse, instead forcing the UK political factions to fight among themselves until a conclusion is produced.
Clearly, the EU would prefer a new referendum
[citation needed]
May might offer a new deal that is accepted
The EU would have to approve it, and they've already been as clear as possible that this is the deal that has been negotiated. It is possible that if a new government was elected with a different mandate for a radically different deal, that would be worth exploring.
Clearly, this would lead to a referendum being held: nobody wants a no-deal.
Far from obvious: there definitely is a UK no-deal faction in parliament.
Also, what if they hold a referendum and the answer comes back as Leave? Nothing has been solved but more time has been wasted.
No, what's happening here is that the EU is forcing the UK to make a decision. It has to ask for an extension first, and present an offer that would result in some material change to the negotiation position. A referendum is only one of various options for that - fresh elections would also count, as would a change of PM without an election by means of a no-confidence vote. Crucially, to avoid timewasting, whatever the UK presents has to be acceptable firstly to the UK Parliament.
Edit: see Verhofstadt "The European Union should reject a request from Britain to extend its Brexit deadline unless British lawmakers rally around a clear objective for what they want to achieve".
As the comment says, trying to directly order around the UK political process would be unpopular. So they're trying hard to not specify a route out of the impasse, instead forcing the UK political factions to fight among themselves until a conclusion is produced.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
pjc50pjc50
5,2431226
5,2431226
12
Isn't one of the reasons things took so long, and which is oft-mentioned here, that the UK government doesn't have a mandate for any specific way forward, just a cobbled together mandate for exiting the EU made from fundamentally incompatible (sometimes even self-contradictory) pieces?
– Deduplicator
5 hours ago
2
Exactly. The whole thing has been conducted in a grossly incoherent manner.
– pjc50
5 hours ago
2
Well, "mandate" is not defined in UK law (for better or worse), and so it tends to mean whatever a politician both wants it to mean and can persuade a relevant audience that it does mean -- either the public or fellow party members depending on the question and situation.
– terry-s
2 hours ago
1
Well, you're operating on the principle that the Labour party are interested in a deal. My feeling is that they'd find a reason to not vote for any deal because it suits their purpose to make the situation look more chaotic.
– Valorum
25 mins ago
add a comment |
12
Isn't one of the reasons things took so long, and which is oft-mentioned here, that the UK government doesn't have a mandate for any specific way forward, just a cobbled together mandate for exiting the EU made from fundamentally incompatible (sometimes even self-contradictory) pieces?
– Deduplicator
5 hours ago
2
Exactly. The whole thing has been conducted in a grossly incoherent manner.
– pjc50
5 hours ago
2
Well, "mandate" is not defined in UK law (for better or worse), and so it tends to mean whatever a politician both wants it to mean and can persuade a relevant audience that it does mean -- either the public or fellow party members depending on the question and situation.
– terry-s
2 hours ago
1
Well, you're operating on the principle that the Labour party are interested in a deal. My feeling is that they'd find a reason to not vote for any deal because it suits their purpose to make the situation look more chaotic.
– Valorum
25 mins ago
12
12
Isn't one of the reasons things took so long, and which is oft-mentioned here, that the UK government doesn't have a mandate for any specific way forward, just a cobbled together mandate for exiting the EU made from fundamentally incompatible (sometimes even self-contradictory) pieces?
– Deduplicator
5 hours ago
Isn't one of the reasons things took so long, and which is oft-mentioned here, that the UK government doesn't have a mandate for any specific way forward, just a cobbled together mandate for exiting the EU made from fundamentally incompatible (sometimes even self-contradictory) pieces?
– Deduplicator
5 hours ago
2
2
Exactly. The whole thing has been conducted in a grossly incoherent manner.
– pjc50
5 hours ago
Exactly. The whole thing has been conducted in a grossly incoherent manner.
– pjc50
5 hours ago
2
2
Well, "mandate" is not defined in UK law (for better or worse), and so it tends to mean whatever a politician both wants it to mean and can persuade a relevant audience that it does mean -- either the public or fellow party members depending on the question and situation.
– terry-s
2 hours ago
Well, "mandate" is not defined in UK law (for better or worse), and so it tends to mean whatever a politician both wants it to mean and can persuade a relevant audience that it does mean -- either the public or fellow party members depending on the question and situation.
– terry-s
2 hours ago
1
1
Well, you're operating on the principle that the Labour party are interested in a deal. My feeling is that they'd find a reason to not vote for any deal because it suits their purpose to make the situation look more chaotic.
– Valorum
25 mins ago
Well, you're operating on the principle that the Labour party are interested in a deal. My feeling is that they'd find a reason to not vote for any deal because it suits their purpose to make the situation look more chaotic.
– Valorum
25 mins ago
add a comment |
The EU could indeed threaten to only allow an extension if it was used for a second referendum, but there is a risk that some British people would take exception to being forced into that course of action (by the failings of their own representatives!) and vote to leave with no deal, an outcome the EU wishes to avoid.
Basically the EU doesn't want to play into brexiteers claims about it being undemocratic and trying to force the UK to do what it wants, by forcing the UK to do what it wants.
add a comment |
The EU could indeed threaten to only allow an extension if it was used for a second referendum, but there is a risk that some British people would take exception to being forced into that course of action (by the failings of their own representatives!) and vote to leave with no deal, an outcome the EU wishes to avoid.
Basically the EU doesn't want to play into brexiteers claims about it being undemocratic and trying to force the UK to do what it wants, by forcing the UK to do what it wants.
add a comment |
The EU could indeed threaten to only allow an extension if it was used for a second referendum, but there is a risk that some British people would take exception to being forced into that course of action (by the failings of their own representatives!) and vote to leave with no deal, an outcome the EU wishes to avoid.
Basically the EU doesn't want to play into brexiteers claims about it being undemocratic and trying to force the UK to do what it wants, by forcing the UK to do what it wants.
The EU could indeed threaten to only allow an extension if it was used for a second referendum, but there is a risk that some British people would take exception to being forced into that course of action (by the failings of their own representatives!) and vote to leave with no deal, an outcome the EU wishes to avoid.
Basically the EU doesn't want to play into brexiteers claims about it being undemocratic and trying to force the UK to do what it wants, by forcing the UK to do what it wants.
answered 6 hours ago
useruser
8,21421735
8,21421735
add a comment |
add a comment |
With that in mind, why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?
Because that's not in the best interest of the EU.
The EU doesn't want a second referendum. The EU wants the UK to make up its mind, and to make it up soon. A referendum does neither. If there is a referendum, whatever the outcome is, people will disagree on what the outcome means. Furthermore, you cannot have a referendum on a very short notice. Apart from logistics, a proper democracy demands there to be time for people to campaign; the public must get the opportunity to make up their minds. So you need time.
But the European elections are near the horizon. Europe will not have time to negotiate with the UK afterwards. There will be a new parliament, and a new commission has to be formed. Remember the UK lost valuable time when May called elections? It's something like that, except that forming a new commission takes much longer. Juncker will be replaced.
For the EU to agree on an extension, the UK must present a plan which can be used to build upon. A referendum is too much uncertainty. And remember, the UK will only be granted an extension if all of the 27 countries agree. A while Germany is very likely to go a long way to avoid a no-deal Brexit, even at huge costs, others (like France) are ready to take their losses and see more value in just moving on.
And beside that, the EU doesn't like to threaten. Whatever the differences it has, it always, always takes into account "we need each other tomorrow". Threats are not part of that.
"The EU wants the UK to make up its mind" -> that's the perfect answer. Remember that Parliament is sovereign and doesn't need another referendum to make a decision. All they have to do is pick one option and stick to it.
– JonathanReez
20 mins ago
add a comment |
With that in mind, why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?
Because that's not in the best interest of the EU.
The EU doesn't want a second referendum. The EU wants the UK to make up its mind, and to make it up soon. A referendum does neither. If there is a referendum, whatever the outcome is, people will disagree on what the outcome means. Furthermore, you cannot have a referendum on a very short notice. Apart from logistics, a proper democracy demands there to be time for people to campaign; the public must get the opportunity to make up their minds. So you need time.
But the European elections are near the horizon. Europe will not have time to negotiate with the UK afterwards. There will be a new parliament, and a new commission has to be formed. Remember the UK lost valuable time when May called elections? It's something like that, except that forming a new commission takes much longer. Juncker will be replaced.
For the EU to agree on an extension, the UK must present a plan which can be used to build upon. A referendum is too much uncertainty. And remember, the UK will only be granted an extension if all of the 27 countries agree. A while Germany is very likely to go a long way to avoid a no-deal Brexit, even at huge costs, others (like France) are ready to take their losses and see more value in just moving on.
And beside that, the EU doesn't like to threaten. Whatever the differences it has, it always, always takes into account "we need each other tomorrow". Threats are not part of that.
"The EU wants the UK to make up its mind" -> that's the perfect answer. Remember that Parliament is sovereign and doesn't need another referendum to make a decision. All they have to do is pick one option and stick to it.
– JonathanReez
20 mins ago
add a comment |
With that in mind, why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?
Because that's not in the best interest of the EU.
The EU doesn't want a second referendum. The EU wants the UK to make up its mind, and to make it up soon. A referendum does neither. If there is a referendum, whatever the outcome is, people will disagree on what the outcome means. Furthermore, you cannot have a referendum on a very short notice. Apart from logistics, a proper democracy demands there to be time for people to campaign; the public must get the opportunity to make up their minds. So you need time.
But the European elections are near the horizon. Europe will not have time to negotiate with the UK afterwards. There will be a new parliament, and a new commission has to be formed. Remember the UK lost valuable time when May called elections? It's something like that, except that forming a new commission takes much longer. Juncker will be replaced.
For the EU to agree on an extension, the UK must present a plan which can be used to build upon. A referendum is too much uncertainty. And remember, the UK will only be granted an extension if all of the 27 countries agree. A while Germany is very likely to go a long way to avoid a no-deal Brexit, even at huge costs, others (like France) are ready to take their losses and see more value in just moving on.
And beside that, the EU doesn't like to threaten. Whatever the differences it has, it always, always takes into account "we need each other tomorrow". Threats are not part of that.
With that in mind, why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?
Because that's not in the best interest of the EU.
The EU doesn't want a second referendum. The EU wants the UK to make up its mind, and to make it up soon. A referendum does neither. If there is a referendum, whatever the outcome is, people will disagree on what the outcome means. Furthermore, you cannot have a referendum on a very short notice. Apart from logistics, a proper democracy demands there to be time for people to campaign; the public must get the opportunity to make up their minds. So you need time.
But the European elections are near the horizon. Europe will not have time to negotiate with the UK afterwards. There will be a new parliament, and a new commission has to be formed. Remember the UK lost valuable time when May called elections? It's something like that, except that forming a new commission takes much longer. Juncker will be replaced.
For the EU to agree on an extension, the UK must present a plan which can be used to build upon. A referendum is too much uncertainty. And remember, the UK will only be granted an extension if all of the 27 countries agree. A while Germany is very likely to go a long way to avoid a no-deal Brexit, even at huge costs, others (like France) are ready to take their losses and see more value in just moving on.
And beside that, the EU doesn't like to threaten. Whatever the differences it has, it always, always takes into account "we need each other tomorrow". Threats are not part of that.
answered 2 hours ago
AbigailAbigail
82218
82218
"The EU wants the UK to make up its mind" -> that's the perfect answer. Remember that Parliament is sovereign and doesn't need another referendum to make a decision. All they have to do is pick one option and stick to it.
– JonathanReez
20 mins ago
add a comment |
"The EU wants the UK to make up its mind" -> that's the perfect answer. Remember that Parliament is sovereign and doesn't need another referendum to make a decision. All they have to do is pick one option and stick to it.
– JonathanReez
20 mins ago
"The EU wants the UK to make up its mind" -> that's the perfect answer. Remember that Parliament is sovereign and doesn't need another referendum to make a decision. All they have to do is pick one option and stick to it.
– JonathanReez
20 mins ago
"The EU wants the UK to make up its mind" -> that's the perfect answer. Remember that Parliament is sovereign and doesn't need another referendum to make a decision. All they have to do is pick one option and stick to it.
– JonathanReez
20 mins ago
add a comment |
"Why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?"
In my experience the EU operates quite legalistically, and EU functionaries wish to refrain from doing things outside its range of established legal competences (or, if one is being cynical: they wish at least not to be seen to do such things).
One of the areas outside EU legal competences is the internal affairs and constitutional actions of member states -- insofar as EU law is not violated by the conduct of such affairs and actions.
So I believe this would be a simple explanation for the reluctance or restraint -- whichever it may be - shown by representatives of EU organs in promoting action to resolve the UK/EU impasse. They can and may encourage the UK to come to some decision about what it wants at the level of its relation with (currently) the rest of the EU, but it is not within their remit to promote particular political actions within the UK.
I have to refrain from putting a value judgment on this right now. I suppose that when it gets to be time for hindsight, then the judgment will depend on currently-unknowable factors in the outcome, yet to appear. But it might not be very long now before we get to know, for better or for worse!
New contributor
1
+1 This is for sure an important point. In the EU, every member is sovereign, so the the EU as such does not have the right to request a new referendum or anything else that can only be an internal affair.
– rexkogitans
2 hours ago
add a comment |
"Why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?"
In my experience the EU operates quite legalistically, and EU functionaries wish to refrain from doing things outside its range of established legal competences (or, if one is being cynical: they wish at least not to be seen to do such things).
One of the areas outside EU legal competences is the internal affairs and constitutional actions of member states -- insofar as EU law is not violated by the conduct of such affairs and actions.
So I believe this would be a simple explanation for the reluctance or restraint -- whichever it may be - shown by representatives of EU organs in promoting action to resolve the UK/EU impasse. They can and may encourage the UK to come to some decision about what it wants at the level of its relation with (currently) the rest of the EU, but it is not within their remit to promote particular political actions within the UK.
I have to refrain from putting a value judgment on this right now. I suppose that when it gets to be time for hindsight, then the judgment will depend on currently-unknowable factors in the outcome, yet to appear. But it might not be very long now before we get to know, for better or for worse!
New contributor
1
+1 This is for sure an important point. In the EU, every member is sovereign, so the the EU as such does not have the right to request a new referendum or anything else that can only be an internal affair.
– rexkogitans
2 hours ago
add a comment |
"Why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?"
In my experience the EU operates quite legalistically, and EU functionaries wish to refrain from doing things outside its range of established legal competences (or, if one is being cynical: they wish at least not to be seen to do such things).
One of the areas outside EU legal competences is the internal affairs and constitutional actions of member states -- insofar as EU law is not violated by the conduct of such affairs and actions.
So I believe this would be a simple explanation for the reluctance or restraint -- whichever it may be - shown by representatives of EU organs in promoting action to resolve the UK/EU impasse. They can and may encourage the UK to come to some decision about what it wants at the level of its relation with (currently) the rest of the EU, but it is not within their remit to promote particular political actions within the UK.
I have to refrain from putting a value judgment on this right now. I suppose that when it gets to be time for hindsight, then the judgment will depend on currently-unknowable factors in the outcome, yet to appear. But it might not be very long now before we get to know, for better or for worse!
New contributor
"Why doesn't the EU simply threathen to NOT agree to an article 50 extension unless a referendum is held?"
In my experience the EU operates quite legalistically, and EU functionaries wish to refrain from doing things outside its range of established legal competences (or, if one is being cynical: they wish at least not to be seen to do such things).
One of the areas outside EU legal competences is the internal affairs and constitutional actions of member states -- insofar as EU law is not violated by the conduct of such affairs and actions.
So I believe this would be a simple explanation for the reluctance or restraint -- whichever it may be - shown by representatives of EU organs in promoting action to resolve the UK/EU impasse. They can and may encourage the UK to come to some decision about what it wants at the level of its relation with (currently) the rest of the EU, but it is not within their remit to promote particular political actions within the UK.
I have to refrain from putting a value judgment on this right now. I suppose that when it gets to be time for hindsight, then the judgment will depend on currently-unknowable factors in the outcome, yet to appear. But it might not be very long now before we get to know, for better or for worse!
New contributor
New contributor
answered 2 hours ago
terry-sterry-s
1711
1711
New contributor
New contributor
1
+1 This is for sure an important point. In the EU, every member is sovereign, so the the EU as such does not have the right to request a new referendum or anything else that can only be an internal affair.
– rexkogitans
2 hours ago
add a comment |
1
+1 This is for sure an important point. In the EU, every member is sovereign, so the the EU as such does not have the right to request a new referendum or anything else that can only be an internal affair.
– rexkogitans
2 hours ago
1
1
+1 This is for sure an important point. In the EU, every member is sovereign, so the the EU as such does not have the right to request a new referendum or anything else that can only be an internal affair.
– rexkogitans
2 hours ago
+1 This is for sure an important point. In the EU, every member is sovereign, so the the EU as such does not have the right to request a new referendum or anything else that can only be an internal affair.
– rexkogitans
2 hours ago
add a comment |
- Many EU leaders and spokespersons say that they would like the UK to stay. I find those statements credible. Many EU leaders also express their exasperation with UK politics and they do not want the UK to stay at any cost.
- Extending the Article 50 negotiations beyond the next EU elections will be difficult. Extending them into the next multi-annual financial framework will be extremely difficult. There is little faith that a few weeks would result in a stable majority for a solution in the UK.
- The UK has held a brexit referendum in 1975 and another in 2016. In between there were rebates, opt-outs, and so on. If the UK were to stay by a narrow margin, the next referendum would be much sooner than 40 years from now. So what would be won by forcing the UK to stay a little longer?
2
After this horrific mess I guarantee any leader even mentioning the idea of another referendum gets kicked out faster than DC resigning after he lost the vote!
– Tim B
3 hours ago
add a comment |
- Many EU leaders and spokespersons say that they would like the UK to stay. I find those statements credible. Many EU leaders also express their exasperation with UK politics and they do not want the UK to stay at any cost.
- Extending the Article 50 negotiations beyond the next EU elections will be difficult. Extending them into the next multi-annual financial framework will be extremely difficult. There is little faith that a few weeks would result in a stable majority for a solution in the UK.
- The UK has held a brexit referendum in 1975 and another in 2016. In between there were rebates, opt-outs, and so on. If the UK were to stay by a narrow margin, the next referendum would be much sooner than 40 years from now. So what would be won by forcing the UK to stay a little longer?
2
After this horrific mess I guarantee any leader even mentioning the idea of another referendum gets kicked out faster than DC resigning after he lost the vote!
– Tim B
3 hours ago
add a comment |
- Many EU leaders and spokespersons say that they would like the UK to stay. I find those statements credible. Many EU leaders also express their exasperation with UK politics and they do not want the UK to stay at any cost.
- Extending the Article 50 negotiations beyond the next EU elections will be difficult. Extending them into the next multi-annual financial framework will be extremely difficult. There is little faith that a few weeks would result in a stable majority for a solution in the UK.
- The UK has held a brexit referendum in 1975 and another in 2016. In between there were rebates, opt-outs, and so on. If the UK were to stay by a narrow margin, the next referendum would be much sooner than 40 years from now. So what would be won by forcing the UK to stay a little longer?
- Many EU leaders and spokespersons say that they would like the UK to stay. I find those statements credible. Many EU leaders also express their exasperation with UK politics and they do not want the UK to stay at any cost.
- Extending the Article 50 negotiations beyond the next EU elections will be difficult. Extending them into the next multi-annual financial framework will be extremely difficult. There is little faith that a few weeks would result in a stable majority for a solution in the UK.
- The UK has held a brexit referendum in 1975 and another in 2016. In between there were rebates, opt-outs, and so on. If the UK were to stay by a narrow margin, the next referendum would be much sooner than 40 years from now. So what would be won by forcing the UK to stay a little longer?
answered 4 hours ago
o.m.o.m.
8,86511434
8,86511434
2
After this horrific mess I guarantee any leader even mentioning the idea of another referendum gets kicked out faster than DC resigning after he lost the vote!
– Tim B
3 hours ago
add a comment |
2
After this horrific mess I guarantee any leader even mentioning the idea of another referendum gets kicked out faster than DC resigning after he lost the vote!
– Tim B
3 hours ago
2
2
After this horrific mess I guarantee any leader even mentioning the idea of another referendum gets kicked out faster than DC resigning after he lost the vote!
– Tim B
3 hours ago
After this horrific mess I guarantee any leader even mentioning the idea of another referendum gets kicked out faster than DC resigning after he lost the vote!
– Tim B
3 hours ago
add a comment |
The EU's position (insofar as an organization that is an organization of organizations has a position) is that the negotiated terms are those that the UK can take.
If they don't take those terms, the EU's position is that the UK is legally allowed to leave the EU or stay in the EU under EU law.
The EU appears to be willing to let the UK choose between those 3 choices.
In the event that the UK leaves the EU with no deal, there are "territorial"-ish disputes between EU states and the UK that will no longer be as resolved as they where under the EU framework. These include Gibralter (Spain-UK disagreement) and Northern Ireland (Ireland-UK-IRA disagreement, settled by Good Friday accords).
So in some sense, the EU doesn't want a no-deal Brexit, because it wants those disputes to remain settled.
The EU has also made clear that if the UK wants to stay in the EU, existing deals involving special status for the UK (where it can opt out of things) may no longer be on the table.
The EU has also made it clear that it is uninterested in reopening the current Brexit deal barring major concessions by the UK on matters of substance.
How the UK resolves these issues is up to the UK. They can have another referendum ("Do you want to accept the current Brexit deal (a), or stay in the EU (b)?" or "Do you want to accept the current Brexit deal(a), or no-deal Brexit(b)?" for a 2 question version, or a 3 question version "Current Brexit deal (a), No-deal Brexit (b), stay in EU (c)?", or a 2x2 version "Do you want to Brexit (1) or not (2)? If we do Brexit, do you want to accept current deal (a) or no-deal (b)?") to "settle" the issue if the UK chooses, they could have a snap election and have the new parlaiment decide, they could remove the oath requirement of Parlaiment and sit the 7 Sien Fein MPs and swing the balance of power, but that isn't the EU's problem.
Do you have a source for The EU has also made clear that if the UK wants to stay in the EU, existing deals involving special status for the UK (where it can opt out of things) may no longer be on the table. ?
– gerrit
26 mins ago
add a comment |
The EU's position (insofar as an organization that is an organization of organizations has a position) is that the negotiated terms are those that the UK can take.
If they don't take those terms, the EU's position is that the UK is legally allowed to leave the EU or stay in the EU under EU law.
The EU appears to be willing to let the UK choose between those 3 choices.
In the event that the UK leaves the EU with no deal, there are "territorial"-ish disputes between EU states and the UK that will no longer be as resolved as they where under the EU framework. These include Gibralter (Spain-UK disagreement) and Northern Ireland (Ireland-UK-IRA disagreement, settled by Good Friday accords).
So in some sense, the EU doesn't want a no-deal Brexit, because it wants those disputes to remain settled.
The EU has also made clear that if the UK wants to stay in the EU, existing deals involving special status for the UK (where it can opt out of things) may no longer be on the table.
The EU has also made it clear that it is uninterested in reopening the current Brexit deal barring major concessions by the UK on matters of substance.
How the UK resolves these issues is up to the UK. They can have another referendum ("Do you want to accept the current Brexit deal (a), or stay in the EU (b)?" or "Do you want to accept the current Brexit deal(a), or no-deal Brexit(b)?" for a 2 question version, or a 3 question version "Current Brexit deal (a), No-deal Brexit (b), stay in EU (c)?", or a 2x2 version "Do you want to Brexit (1) or not (2)? If we do Brexit, do you want to accept current deal (a) or no-deal (b)?") to "settle" the issue if the UK chooses, they could have a snap election and have the new parlaiment decide, they could remove the oath requirement of Parlaiment and sit the 7 Sien Fein MPs and swing the balance of power, but that isn't the EU's problem.
Do you have a source for The EU has also made clear that if the UK wants to stay in the EU, existing deals involving special status for the UK (where it can opt out of things) may no longer be on the table. ?
– gerrit
26 mins ago
add a comment |
The EU's position (insofar as an organization that is an organization of organizations has a position) is that the negotiated terms are those that the UK can take.
If they don't take those terms, the EU's position is that the UK is legally allowed to leave the EU or stay in the EU under EU law.
The EU appears to be willing to let the UK choose between those 3 choices.
In the event that the UK leaves the EU with no deal, there are "territorial"-ish disputes between EU states and the UK that will no longer be as resolved as they where under the EU framework. These include Gibralter (Spain-UK disagreement) and Northern Ireland (Ireland-UK-IRA disagreement, settled by Good Friday accords).
So in some sense, the EU doesn't want a no-deal Brexit, because it wants those disputes to remain settled.
The EU has also made clear that if the UK wants to stay in the EU, existing deals involving special status for the UK (where it can opt out of things) may no longer be on the table.
The EU has also made it clear that it is uninterested in reopening the current Brexit deal barring major concessions by the UK on matters of substance.
How the UK resolves these issues is up to the UK. They can have another referendum ("Do you want to accept the current Brexit deal (a), or stay in the EU (b)?" or "Do you want to accept the current Brexit deal(a), or no-deal Brexit(b)?" for a 2 question version, or a 3 question version "Current Brexit deal (a), No-deal Brexit (b), stay in EU (c)?", or a 2x2 version "Do you want to Brexit (1) or not (2)? If we do Brexit, do you want to accept current deal (a) or no-deal (b)?") to "settle" the issue if the UK chooses, they could have a snap election and have the new parlaiment decide, they could remove the oath requirement of Parlaiment and sit the 7 Sien Fein MPs and swing the balance of power, but that isn't the EU's problem.
The EU's position (insofar as an organization that is an organization of organizations has a position) is that the negotiated terms are those that the UK can take.
If they don't take those terms, the EU's position is that the UK is legally allowed to leave the EU or stay in the EU under EU law.
The EU appears to be willing to let the UK choose between those 3 choices.
In the event that the UK leaves the EU with no deal, there are "territorial"-ish disputes between EU states and the UK that will no longer be as resolved as they where under the EU framework. These include Gibralter (Spain-UK disagreement) and Northern Ireland (Ireland-UK-IRA disagreement, settled by Good Friday accords).
So in some sense, the EU doesn't want a no-deal Brexit, because it wants those disputes to remain settled.
The EU has also made clear that if the UK wants to stay in the EU, existing deals involving special status for the UK (where it can opt out of things) may no longer be on the table.
The EU has also made it clear that it is uninterested in reopening the current Brexit deal barring major concessions by the UK on matters of substance.
How the UK resolves these issues is up to the UK. They can have another referendum ("Do you want to accept the current Brexit deal (a), or stay in the EU (b)?" or "Do you want to accept the current Brexit deal(a), or no-deal Brexit(b)?" for a 2 question version, or a 3 question version "Current Brexit deal (a), No-deal Brexit (b), stay in EU (c)?", or a 2x2 version "Do you want to Brexit (1) or not (2)? If we do Brexit, do you want to accept current deal (a) or no-deal (b)?") to "settle" the issue if the UK chooses, they could have a snap election and have the new parlaiment decide, they could remove the oath requirement of Parlaiment and sit the 7 Sien Fein MPs and swing the balance of power, but that isn't the EU's problem.
answered 1 hour ago
YakkYakk
958310
958310
Do you have a source for The EU has also made clear that if the UK wants to stay in the EU, existing deals involving special status for the UK (where it can opt out of things) may no longer be on the table. ?
– gerrit
26 mins ago
add a comment |
Do you have a source for The EU has also made clear that if the UK wants to stay in the EU, existing deals involving special status for the UK (where it can opt out of things) may no longer be on the table. ?
– gerrit
26 mins ago
Do you have a source for The EU has also made clear that if the UK wants to stay in the EU, existing deals involving special status for the UK (where it can opt out of things) may no longer be on the table. ?
– gerrit
26 mins ago
Do you have a source for The EU has also made clear that if the UK wants to stay in the EU, existing deals involving special status for the UK (where it can opt out of things) may no longer be on the table. ?
– gerrit
26 mins ago
add a comment |
alienfootsoldeir is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
alienfootsoldeir is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
alienfootsoldeir is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
alienfootsoldeir is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Thanks for contributing an answer to Politics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fpolitics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f39363%2fwhy-doesnt-the-eu-now-just-force-the-uk-to-choose-between-referendum-and-no-dea%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
36
Given how a major factor in Brexit was "We don't want the EU ordering us around anymore", I dread to think how apocalyptically furious the Brexiteers would be at such a threat.
– F1Krazy
6 hours ago
10
What makes you think that "nobody wants a no-deal"?
– Michal Paszkiewicz
5 hours ago
1
@F1Krazy - I'm not sure we need to worry too much about whether the True Believers in Brexit will be 'furious'; they are probably a relatively small fraction of the population. To most people it was more a gesture of defiance which had relatively little to do with EU, is my impression. We have all enjoyed things like not having to get an international passport, being able to import stuff without restrictions etc - even if we didn't realise; many things bought on Amazon, for example, are shipped from outside UK. Most likely what people would say now, is 'never mind, it's too much trouble...'
– j4nd3r53n
3 hours ago
1
“given what a failure Brexit has been”. CORRECTION: you mean given what a failure the negotiations have been. Brexit hasn’t happened yet. You can’t say whether it has been a success or a failure. Most Leavers would still vote Leave, and for the same reasons - but just wish for a better negotiation strategy.
– Chris Melville
3 hours ago
1
MPs have voted by 312 to 308 to reject leaving the EU without a withdrawal agreement.. It only takes 3 MPs to change their mind and there is a majority for leaving without a deal. Your premise that nobody wants to leave without a deal is false.
– gerrit
21 mins ago