Are there situations where a child is permitted to refer to their parent by their first name?












4















(This question addresses the prohibition of referring to your parents by their first name)



Other than emergency situations (medical, hospital etc) are there instances where a child is permitted to refer to their parent by their first name?



For example: my father used to do business with someone named Herb Schuster, who employed a couple of his kids. Now my father called him "Herb"... but so did Herb's kids. Is that allowed?



Furthermore, is this something a parent can be mochel on, ie: "I don't mind, you can refer to me by my first name"?










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  • "Excuse me, what's the patient's name?" (ch"v)

    – Micha Berger
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    judaism.stackexchange.com/q/80688/16706

    – Dr. Shmuel
    15 hours ago











  • Related judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14591/759

    – Double AA
    15 hours ago











  • @DoubleAA and judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/7112/…

    – Isaac Moses
    10 hours ago











  • There's a general rule in Judaism every newcomer must know - for every accepted Halachah X there's always a condition where not-X overrides X, at least in some opinions. You can ask that question about any Halachah in Shulchan Aruch - "are there conditions where X does not apply?" and the answer is - yes.

    – Al Berko
    7 hours ago
















4















(This question addresses the prohibition of referring to your parents by their first name)



Other than emergency situations (medical, hospital etc) are there instances where a child is permitted to refer to their parent by their first name?



For example: my father used to do business with someone named Herb Schuster, who employed a couple of his kids. Now my father called him "Herb"... but so did Herb's kids. Is that allowed?



Furthermore, is this something a parent can be mochel on, ie: "I don't mind, you can refer to me by my first name"?










share|improve this question

























  • "Excuse me, what's the patient's name?" (ch"v)

    – Micha Berger
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    judaism.stackexchange.com/q/80688/16706

    – Dr. Shmuel
    15 hours ago











  • Related judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14591/759

    – Double AA
    15 hours ago











  • @DoubleAA and judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/7112/…

    – Isaac Moses
    10 hours ago











  • There's a general rule in Judaism every newcomer must know - for every accepted Halachah X there's always a condition where not-X overrides X, at least in some opinions. You can ask that question about any Halachah in Shulchan Aruch - "are there conditions where X does not apply?" and the answer is - yes.

    – Al Berko
    7 hours ago














4












4








4








(This question addresses the prohibition of referring to your parents by their first name)



Other than emergency situations (medical, hospital etc) are there instances where a child is permitted to refer to their parent by their first name?



For example: my father used to do business with someone named Herb Schuster, who employed a couple of his kids. Now my father called him "Herb"... but so did Herb's kids. Is that allowed?



Furthermore, is this something a parent can be mochel on, ie: "I don't mind, you can refer to me by my first name"?










share|improve this question
















(This question addresses the prohibition of referring to your parents by their first name)



Other than emergency situations (medical, hospital etc) are there instances where a child is permitted to refer to their parent by their first name?



For example: my father used to do business with someone named Herb Schuster, who employed a couple of his kids. Now my father called him "Herb"... but so did Herb's kids. Is that allowed?



Furthermore, is this something a parent can be mochel on, ie: "I don't mind, you can refer to me by my first name"?







halacha names children-parenting kibbud-av-veim-honoring






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edited 8 hours ago







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asked 16 hours ago









alichtalicht

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1,8871428













  • "Excuse me, what's the patient's name?" (ch"v)

    – Micha Berger
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    judaism.stackexchange.com/q/80688/16706

    – Dr. Shmuel
    15 hours ago











  • Related judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14591/759

    – Double AA
    15 hours ago











  • @DoubleAA and judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/7112/…

    – Isaac Moses
    10 hours ago











  • There's a general rule in Judaism every newcomer must know - for every accepted Halachah X there's always a condition where not-X overrides X, at least in some opinions. You can ask that question about any Halachah in Shulchan Aruch - "are there conditions where X does not apply?" and the answer is - yes.

    – Al Berko
    7 hours ago



















  • "Excuse me, what's the patient's name?" (ch"v)

    – Micha Berger
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    judaism.stackexchange.com/q/80688/16706

    – Dr. Shmuel
    15 hours ago











  • Related judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14591/759

    – Double AA
    15 hours ago











  • @DoubleAA and judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/7112/…

    – Isaac Moses
    10 hours ago











  • There's a general rule in Judaism every newcomer must know - for every accepted Halachah X there's always a condition where not-X overrides X, at least in some opinions. You can ask that question about any Halachah in Shulchan Aruch - "are there conditions where X does not apply?" and the answer is - yes.

    – Al Berko
    7 hours ago

















"Excuse me, what's the patient's name?" (ch"v)

– Micha Berger
15 hours ago





"Excuse me, what's the patient's name?" (ch"v)

– Micha Berger
15 hours ago




1




1





judaism.stackexchange.com/q/80688/16706

– Dr. Shmuel
15 hours ago





judaism.stackexchange.com/q/80688/16706

– Dr. Shmuel
15 hours ago













Related judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14591/759

– Double AA
15 hours ago





Related judaism.stackexchange.com/q/14591/759

– Double AA
15 hours ago













@DoubleAA and judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/7112/…

– Isaac Moses
10 hours ago





@DoubleAA and judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/7112/…

– Isaac Moses
10 hours ago













There's a general rule in Judaism every newcomer must know - for every accepted Halachah X there's always a condition where not-X overrides X, at least in some opinions. You can ask that question about any Halachah in Shulchan Aruch - "are there conditions where X does not apply?" and the answer is - yes.

– Al Berko
7 hours ago





There's a general rule in Judaism every newcomer must know - for every accepted Halachah X there's always a condition where not-X overrides X, at least in some opinions. You can ask that question about any Halachah in Shulchan Aruch - "are there conditions where X does not apply?" and the answer is - yes.

– Al Berko
7 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















6














There are instances where a child can use their parent's name.



According to the Radvaz, Hilchos Mamrim 6:3, s.v. אבל, a child may use their parent's name, even in their parent's presence (and presumably even to the parent, although he does not explicate that point), as long as it is qualified with an honorific, such as Reb/Rav Avrohom, or Don Avraham.



R' Akiva Eiger, D'rush V'chiddush Shabbos 115a s.v. אמר ר' יוסי, proves (in the name of his son R' Shlomo Eiger) basically the same thing from a Rashi in Sanhedrin, which says that a heretic is someone who refers to their father as Ploni, and not as Rebbi Mori Ploni (my rebbe my teacher Ploni), which means that with the honorific it would be ok. (Although we see nothing from here about even in the father's presence.)



According to the Maharshal, Yam Shel Shlomo Kiddushin #65, honorifics only work with regard to a teacher's name, but not a parent's name, since you only have one father and there is no need to clarify further than just to say "my father." Pischei Teshuva, Y.D. 240:2 writes that based on this, if someone asked who your father is you could answer with his name, because it's a necessary clarification (but you should still add an honorific).



Regarding if a parent can nullify this, the Gemara in Kiddushin says that a father who pardons his honor, his honor is pardoned. Calling him by name is really a facet of fear, not honor, as the Rambam classifies it, but the Turei Even proves from Kiddushin 32a that even disgracing a parent is in their jurisdiction to pardon.






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  • How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?

    – DonielF
    12 hours ago











  • @DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.

    – Y     e     z
    11 hours ago











  • @Y e z In my shul at least, people approach the Gabbai to add names to the Mi Shebeirach on Shabbos.

    – DonielF
    8 hours ago











  • @DonielF ok so in that case, see the first half of my comment.

    – Y     e     z
    6 hours ago



















5














The Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 6:8) says:




אֶלָּא יִמְחל וְיִתְעַלֵּם שֶׁהָאָב שֶׁמָּחַל עַל כְּבוֹדוֹ כְּבוֹדוֹ מָחוּל



Rather he should forgive and ignore, as the father that forgave his honor, his honor is forgiven.




So a parent who allows their kid to call them by name, the kid is allowed to call them by name. From the fact that Herb didn’t object to his kids calling him by name, he probably allowed them to call them by name. Nevertheless, it is better to be mechabed, because, as it says in Kiddushin 32b

אפ"ה הידור מיעבד ליה בעו - even so, he should honor him (literally praise him)






share|improve this answer










New contributor




Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




























    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    6














    There are instances where a child can use their parent's name.



    According to the Radvaz, Hilchos Mamrim 6:3, s.v. אבל, a child may use their parent's name, even in their parent's presence (and presumably even to the parent, although he does not explicate that point), as long as it is qualified with an honorific, such as Reb/Rav Avrohom, or Don Avraham.



    R' Akiva Eiger, D'rush V'chiddush Shabbos 115a s.v. אמר ר' יוסי, proves (in the name of his son R' Shlomo Eiger) basically the same thing from a Rashi in Sanhedrin, which says that a heretic is someone who refers to their father as Ploni, and not as Rebbi Mori Ploni (my rebbe my teacher Ploni), which means that with the honorific it would be ok. (Although we see nothing from here about even in the father's presence.)



    According to the Maharshal, Yam Shel Shlomo Kiddushin #65, honorifics only work with regard to a teacher's name, but not a parent's name, since you only have one father and there is no need to clarify further than just to say "my father." Pischei Teshuva, Y.D. 240:2 writes that based on this, if someone asked who your father is you could answer with his name, because it's a necessary clarification (but you should still add an honorific).



    Regarding if a parent can nullify this, the Gemara in Kiddushin says that a father who pardons his honor, his honor is pardoned. Calling him by name is really a facet of fear, not honor, as the Rambam classifies it, but the Turei Even proves from Kiddushin 32a that even disgracing a parent is in their jurisdiction to pardon.






    share|improve this answer
























    • How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?

      – DonielF
      12 hours ago











    • @DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.

      – Y     e     z
      11 hours ago











    • @Y e z In my shul at least, people approach the Gabbai to add names to the Mi Shebeirach on Shabbos.

      – DonielF
      8 hours ago











    • @DonielF ok so in that case, see the first half of my comment.

      – Y     e     z
      6 hours ago
















    6














    There are instances where a child can use their parent's name.



    According to the Radvaz, Hilchos Mamrim 6:3, s.v. אבל, a child may use their parent's name, even in their parent's presence (and presumably even to the parent, although he does not explicate that point), as long as it is qualified with an honorific, such as Reb/Rav Avrohom, or Don Avraham.



    R' Akiva Eiger, D'rush V'chiddush Shabbos 115a s.v. אמר ר' יוסי, proves (in the name of his son R' Shlomo Eiger) basically the same thing from a Rashi in Sanhedrin, which says that a heretic is someone who refers to their father as Ploni, and not as Rebbi Mori Ploni (my rebbe my teacher Ploni), which means that with the honorific it would be ok. (Although we see nothing from here about even in the father's presence.)



    According to the Maharshal, Yam Shel Shlomo Kiddushin #65, honorifics only work with regard to a teacher's name, but not a parent's name, since you only have one father and there is no need to clarify further than just to say "my father." Pischei Teshuva, Y.D. 240:2 writes that based on this, if someone asked who your father is you could answer with his name, because it's a necessary clarification (but you should still add an honorific).



    Regarding if a parent can nullify this, the Gemara in Kiddushin says that a father who pardons his honor, his honor is pardoned. Calling him by name is really a facet of fear, not honor, as the Rambam classifies it, but the Turei Even proves from Kiddushin 32a that even disgracing a parent is in their jurisdiction to pardon.






    share|improve this answer
























    • How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?

      – DonielF
      12 hours ago











    • @DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.

      – Y     e     z
      11 hours ago











    • @Y e z In my shul at least, people approach the Gabbai to add names to the Mi Shebeirach on Shabbos.

      – DonielF
      8 hours ago











    • @DonielF ok so in that case, see the first half of my comment.

      – Y     e     z
      6 hours ago














    6












    6








    6







    There are instances where a child can use their parent's name.



    According to the Radvaz, Hilchos Mamrim 6:3, s.v. אבל, a child may use their parent's name, even in their parent's presence (and presumably even to the parent, although he does not explicate that point), as long as it is qualified with an honorific, such as Reb/Rav Avrohom, or Don Avraham.



    R' Akiva Eiger, D'rush V'chiddush Shabbos 115a s.v. אמר ר' יוסי, proves (in the name of his son R' Shlomo Eiger) basically the same thing from a Rashi in Sanhedrin, which says that a heretic is someone who refers to their father as Ploni, and not as Rebbi Mori Ploni (my rebbe my teacher Ploni), which means that with the honorific it would be ok. (Although we see nothing from here about even in the father's presence.)



    According to the Maharshal, Yam Shel Shlomo Kiddushin #65, honorifics only work with regard to a teacher's name, but not a parent's name, since you only have one father and there is no need to clarify further than just to say "my father." Pischei Teshuva, Y.D. 240:2 writes that based on this, if someone asked who your father is you could answer with his name, because it's a necessary clarification (but you should still add an honorific).



    Regarding if a parent can nullify this, the Gemara in Kiddushin says that a father who pardons his honor, his honor is pardoned. Calling him by name is really a facet of fear, not honor, as the Rambam classifies it, but the Turei Even proves from Kiddushin 32a that even disgracing a parent is in their jurisdiction to pardon.






    share|improve this answer













    There are instances where a child can use their parent's name.



    According to the Radvaz, Hilchos Mamrim 6:3, s.v. אבל, a child may use their parent's name, even in their parent's presence (and presumably even to the parent, although he does not explicate that point), as long as it is qualified with an honorific, such as Reb/Rav Avrohom, or Don Avraham.



    R' Akiva Eiger, D'rush V'chiddush Shabbos 115a s.v. אמר ר' יוסי, proves (in the name of his son R' Shlomo Eiger) basically the same thing from a Rashi in Sanhedrin, which says that a heretic is someone who refers to their father as Ploni, and not as Rebbi Mori Ploni (my rebbe my teacher Ploni), which means that with the honorific it would be ok. (Although we see nothing from here about even in the father's presence.)



    According to the Maharshal, Yam Shel Shlomo Kiddushin #65, honorifics only work with regard to a teacher's name, but not a parent's name, since you only have one father and there is no need to clarify further than just to say "my father." Pischei Teshuva, Y.D. 240:2 writes that based on this, if someone asked who your father is you could answer with his name, because it's a necessary clarification (but you should still add an honorific).



    Regarding if a parent can nullify this, the Gemara in Kiddushin says that a father who pardons his honor, his honor is pardoned. Calling him by name is really a facet of fear, not honor, as the Rambam classifies it, but the Turei Even proves from Kiddushin 32a that even disgracing a parent is in their jurisdiction to pardon.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 15 hours ago









    Y     e     zY     e     z

    44.4k368197




    44.4k368197













    • How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?

      – DonielF
      12 hours ago











    • @DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.

      – Y     e     z
      11 hours ago











    • @Y e z In my shul at least, people approach the Gabbai to add names to the Mi Shebeirach on Shabbos.

      – DonielF
      8 hours ago











    • @DonielF ok so in that case, see the first half of my comment.

      – Y     e     z
      6 hours ago



















    • How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?

      – DonielF
      12 hours ago











    • @DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.

      – Y     e     z
      11 hours ago











    • @Y e z In my shul at least, people approach the Gabbai to add names to the Mi Shebeirach on Shabbos.

      – DonielF
      8 hours ago











    • @DonielF ok so in that case, see the first half of my comment.

      – Y     e     z
      6 hours ago

















    How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?

    – DonielF
    12 hours ago





    How about if a Gabbai calls you to the Torah and asks you for your name? Or if one’s sibling is sick c”v and he wants to put the sibling on the Cholim list? In both instances he says Ploni Ben Ploni(s) - does including “Ben” qualify as an honorific?

    – DonielF
    12 hours ago













    @DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.

    – Y     e     z
    11 hours ago





    @DonielF If the Gabbai doesn't know your name, then I don't see any reason it should be any different than the Pischei Teshuva, at the worst, but R' Moshe Feinstein holds that saying your father's name in order to say your name is fine. The cholim list is writing - that is a separate discussion; R' Moshe Feinstein says (in the same teshuva) there is no issue in writing.

    – Y     e     z
    11 hours ago













    @Y e z In my shul at least, people approach the Gabbai to add names to the Mi Shebeirach on Shabbos.

    – DonielF
    8 hours ago





    @Y e z In my shul at least, people approach the Gabbai to add names to the Mi Shebeirach on Shabbos.

    – DonielF
    8 hours ago













    @DonielF ok so in that case, see the first half of my comment.

    – Y     e     z
    6 hours ago





    @DonielF ok so in that case, see the first half of my comment.

    – Y     e     z
    6 hours ago











    5














    The Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 6:8) says:




    אֶלָּא יִמְחל וְיִתְעַלֵּם שֶׁהָאָב שֶׁמָּחַל עַל כְּבוֹדוֹ כְּבוֹדוֹ מָחוּל



    Rather he should forgive and ignore, as the father that forgave his honor, his honor is forgiven.




    So a parent who allows their kid to call them by name, the kid is allowed to call them by name. From the fact that Herb didn’t object to his kids calling him by name, he probably allowed them to call them by name. Nevertheless, it is better to be mechabed, because, as it says in Kiddushin 32b

    אפ"ה הידור מיעבד ליה בעו - even so, he should honor him (literally praise him)






    share|improve this answer










    New contributor




    Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.

























      5














      The Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 6:8) says:




      אֶלָּא יִמְחל וְיִתְעַלֵּם שֶׁהָאָב שֶׁמָּחַל עַל כְּבוֹדוֹ כְּבוֹדוֹ מָחוּל



      Rather he should forgive and ignore, as the father that forgave his honor, his honor is forgiven.




      So a parent who allows their kid to call them by name, the kid is allowed to call them by name. From the fact that Herb didn’t object to his kids calling him by name, he probably allowed them to call them by name. Nevertheless, it is better to be mechabed, because, as it says in Kiddushin 32b

      אפ"ה הידור מיעבד ליה בעו - even so, he should honor him (literally praise him)






      share|improve this answer










      New contributor




      Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.























        5












        5








        5







        The Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 6:8) says:




        אֶלָּא יִמְחל וְיִתְעַלֵּם שֶׁהָאָב שֶׁמָּחַל עַל כְּבוֹדוֹ כְּבוֹדוֹ מָחוּל



        Rather he should forgive and ignore, as the father that forgave his honor, his honor is forgiven.




        So a parent who allows their kid to call them by name, the kid is allowed to call them by name. From the fact that Herb didn’t object to his kids calling him by name, he probably allowed them to call them by name. Nevertheless, it is better to be mechabed, because, as it says in Kiddushin 32b

        אפ"ה הידור מיעבד ליה בעו - even so, he should honor him (literally praise him)






        share|improve this answer










        New contributor




        Lo ani is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.










        The Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 6:8) says:




        אֶלָּא יִמְחל וְיִתְעַלֵּם שֶׁהָאָב שֶׁמָּחַל עַל כְּבוֹדוֹ כְּבוֹדוֹ מָחוּל



        Rather he should forgive and ignore, as the father that forgave his honor, his honor is forgiven.




        So a parent who allows their kid to call them by name, the kid is allowed to call them by name. From the fact that Herb didn’t object to his kids calling him by name, he probably allowed them to call them by name. Nevertheless, it is better to be mechabed, because, as it says in Kiddushin 32b

        אפ"ה הידור מיעבד ליה בעו - even so, he should honor him (literally praise him)







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        edited 14 hours ago









        alicht

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        answered 15 hours ago









        Lo aniLo ani

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