Why is it cheaper to fly within the UK than taking the train?
We are planning to travel to Scotland from Manchester and looking at the prices it is way cheaper to get flight tickets than trains, and it is, even more, cheaper than from London.
Why train tickets are so expensive?
For example,
on the 6th of February, 2019 a return ticket from Manchester to Aberdeen for 23-24 March costs £133,30.
OFF-PEAK RETURN
Any off-peak train. Return within 1 month.
1 Adult @ £133.30
Flights between Manchester and Aberdeen today for that weekend varies between 30-66 Pounds. Flying is also faster including check-in times.
air-travel uk trains tickets
|
show 5 more comments
We are planning to travel to Scotland from Manchester and looking at the prices it is way cheaper to get flight tickets than trains, and it is, even more, cheaper than from London.
Why train tickets are so expensive?
For example,
on the 6th of February, 2019 a return ticket from Manchester to Aberdeen for 23-24 March costs £133,30.
OFF-PEAK RETURN
Any off-peak train. Return within 1 month.
1 Adult @ £133.30
Flights between Manchester and Aberdeen today for that weekend varies between 30-66 Pounds. Flying is also faster including check-in times.
air-travel uk trains tickets
Between airports there is no infrastructure to build and/or maintain.
– Weather Vane
11 hours ago
2
But airplanes are much more expensive, and you can use the infrastructure for short travels and freight too.
– Mcload
11 hours ago
Just looked on google flights, I couldn't get much cheaper. What prices are you seeing for flights?
– Philbo
11 hours ago
3
@Mcload it's the other way round: British railways were built for freight and passenger services were the icing on the cake. In the days when most freight was moved by rail, it was known that a passenger service could not be run for profit without freight to pay for the infrastructure. Now, that infrastructure is hugely expensive to maintain.
– Weather Vane
11 hours ago
2
@Traveller I checked and the off peak open return is actually cheapest. But I've put both in (thetrainline for train and google flights for air) and they come out to roughly £130 and £120 respectively. If the OP can get himself an 18-25 or 26-30 railcard (and does this journey more than once a year), they'll probably come out best using rail.
– Philbo
11 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
We are planning to travel to Scotland from Manchester and looking at the prices it is way cheaper to get flight tickets than trains, and it is, even more, cheaper than from London.
Why train tickets are so expensive?
For example,
on the 6th of February, 2019 a return ticket from Manchester to Aberdeen for 23-24 March costs £133,30.
OFF-PEAK RETURN
Any off-peak train. Return within 1 month.
1 Adult @ £133.30
Flights between Manchester and Aberdeen today for that weekend varies between 30-66 Pounds. Flying is also faster including check-in times.
air-travel uk trains tickets
We are planning to travel to Scotland from Manchester and looking at the prices it is way cheaper to get flight tickets than trains, and it is, even more, cheaper than from London.
Why train tickets are so expensive?
For example,
on the 6th of February, 2019 a return ticket from Manchester to Aberdeen for 23-24 March costs £133,30.
OFF-PEAK RETURN
Any off-peak train. Return within 1 month.
1 Adult @ £133.30
Flights between Manchester and Aberdeen today for that weekend varies between 30-66 Pounds. Flying is also faster including check-in times.
air-travel uk trains tickets
air-travel uk trains tickets
asked 11 hours ago
McloadMcload
164111
164111
Between airports there is no infrastructure to build and/or maintain.
– Weather Vane
11 hours ago
2
But airplanes are much more expensive, and you can use the infrastructure for short travels and freight too.
– Mcload
11 hours ago
Just looked on google flights, I couldn't get much cheaper. What prices are you seeing for flights?
– Philbo
11 hours ago
3
@Mcload it's the other way round: British railways were built for freight and passenger services were the icing on the cake. In the days when most freight was moved by rail, it was known that a passenger service could not be run for profit without freight to pay for the infrastructure. Now, that infrastructure is hugely expensive to maintain.
– Weather Vane
11 hours ago
2
@Traveller I checked and the off peak open return is actually cheapest. But I've put both in (thetrainline for train and google flights for air) and they come out to roughly £130 and £120 respectively. If the OP can get himself an 18-25 or 26-30 railcard (and does this journey more than once a year), they'll probably come out best using rail.
– Philbo
11 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
Between airports there is no infrastructure to build and/or maintain.
– Weather Vane
11 hours ago
2
But airplanes are much more expensive, and you can use the infrastructure for short travels and freight too.
– Mcload
11 hours ago
Just looked on google flights, I couldn't get much cheaper. What prices are you seeing for flights?
– Philbo
11 hours ago
3
@Mcload it's the other way round: British railways were built for freight and passenger services were the icing on the cake. In the days when most freight was moved by rail, it was known that a passenger service could not be run for profit without freight to pay for the infrastructure. Now, that infrastructure is hugely expensive to maintain.
– Weather Vane
11 hours ago
2
@Traveller I checked and the off peak open return is actually cheapest. But I've put both in (thetrainline for train and google flights for air) and they come out to roughly £130 and £120 respectively. If the OP can get himself an 18-25 or 26-30 railcard (and does this journey more than once a year), they'll probably come out best using rail.
– Philbo
11 hours ago
Between airports there is no infrastructure to build and/or maintain.
– Weather Vane
11 hours ago
Between airports there is no infrastructure to build and/or maintain.
– Weather Vane
11 hours ago
2
2
But airplanes are much more expensive, and you can use the infrastructure for short travels and freight too.
– Mcload
11 hours ago
But airplanes are much more expensive, and you can use the infrastructure for short travels and freight too.
– Mcload
11 hours ago
Just looked on google flights, I couldn't get much cheaper. What prices are you seeing for flights?
– Philbo
11 hours ago
Just looked on google flights, I couldn't get much cheaper. What prices are you seeing for flights?
– Philbo
11 hours ago
3
3
@Mcload it's the other way round: British railways were built for freight and passenger services were the icing on the cake. In the days when most freight was moved by rail, it was known that a passenger service could not be run for profit without freight to pay for the infrastructure. Now, that infrastructure is hugely expensive to maintain.
– Weather Vane
11 hours ago
@Mcload it's the other way round: British railways were built for freight and passenger services were the icing on the cake. In the days when most freight was moved by rail, it was known that a passenger service could not be run for profit without freight to pay for the infrastructure. Now, that infrastructure is hugely expensive to maintain.
– Weather Vane
11 hours ago
2
2
@Traveller I checked and the off peak open return is actually cheapest. But I've put both in (thetrainline for train and google flights for air) and they come out to roughly £130 and £120 respectively. If the OP can get himself an 18-25 or 26-30 railcard (and does this journey more than once a year), they'll probably come out best using rail.
– Philbo
11 hours ago
@Traveller I checked and the off peak open return is actually cheapest. But I've put both in (thetrainline for train and google flights for air) and they come out to roughly £130 and £120 respectively. If the OP can get himself an 18-25 or 26-30 railcard (and does this journey more than once a year), they'll probably come out best using rail.
– Philbo
11 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
Your £133 train ticket isn't tied to a specific connection like your cheap plane ticket is. For some random dates in April I was offered a return for £52 (two singles at £25 and £27 each). These tickets are sold out for your dates, so you're only offered the more expensive semi-flexible tickets.
Always keep in mind the varying conditions when comparing prices.
add a comment |
Europe-wise train tickets are one of the most expensive in the UK, this image below from The Telegraph is quoted a lot of times in the press and on social media trying to show the disparity with other European countries for:
While it does include a lot of cherry-picking, and doesn't really address why train fares are so expensive (which is still up to debate both by politicians and the general public), it does show that high rail prices are something that you can expect in the UK. Also prices are usually increasing each year as well usually with higher rates than inflation.
Air travel in comparison, especially on low cost airlines is still cheap, it's much more common that low and ultra-low-cost airlines like RyanAir or WizzAir will try to charge you on the extras instead of the plain ticket prices. Also don't forget that although the rail system in the UK is privatised there's not really many competition between the rail companies, as each of them only serves part of the country - there's only a handful routes where you actually have the option to pick between multiple train companies - meaning there's also less of a competition between them to decrease prices. Flight companies however do operate on the same route - meaning there's more competition between them that can affect their prices.
However there are some ways you might be able to get cheaper rail fares.
Use routes that are served by one specific train company
Railway in the UK is privatised and there are multiple train companies operating in the country on a franchise basis. Some companies are only providing train travel on a small part of the country, but some others like Virgin, LNER or CrossCountry operate long-distance trains as well.
When checking routes if you are lucky enough that your trip is served by only one company, then you might be lucky, as they usually have advance tickets for sale. However if the route is served by multiple companies (as you have to switch trains at some point) the price will be dependent whether both of the sections have a cheaper advance ticket, or not.
For example a trip from London to Aberdeen would only include travel on LNER trains - meaning LNER alone could give you a bargain price on an advance off-peak single ticket. However a trip from Manchester to Aberdeen includes multiple companies - likely the Transpennine Express from Manchester to Glasgow, then either CrossCountry or ScotRail to Aberdeen. It's possible in this case that only the section from Manchester to Glasgow is on sale, or only the section from Glasgow to Aberdeen is on sale. It's also possible that there's a cheaper ticket if you wait a few hours in Glasgow - but these options will likely not show up on the booking page.
Also note that although you can book tickets on any train company's website (even for routes that are not served by them) when you have a "single company route" booking on that particular company's website might also get you some extra benefits. For example there's free wifi on LNER trains if you book the ticket on the LNER site, otherwise it's around £3
Book in advance
Also book off-peak or super-off-peak tickets, and book non-refundable tickets that are only valid to one specific train. Similarly to plane tickets the more flexible they are the more expensive they get. Also similarly to them the prices of advance rail tickets might also go both up and down, so it might not always be worth booking too far in advance.
Advance tickets might not always be available - some train companies don't sell them for example at all, as they only have plain peak and off-peak tickets. This can be relevant on routes which are only served by changing trains and train companies.
If there are advanced tickets, for both the outward and return journey then they can be cheaper than an anytime return ticket.
Use railcards
Railcards will give you 1/3 off the price of off-peak tickets. For long distances if you travel with someone a two-together railcard might sometimes make the trip cheaper than the cost of the railcard itself (£30, and you can use the railcard for subsequent travels in the year as well).
If you're travelling alone or in a group you might be able to find other railcards that can help you drive the cost down, especially if you're either a Senior, or younger than 30 years old.
Don't forget that air travel is usually not that simple
Because:
Airports are usually not centrally located, and the transfer from the airport to the city can easily add a lot to the cost of the ticket. Trains usually depart and arrive to the city centre. The transfer ticket from the airport to the city can easily get into the £10-£20 range in some locations, especially London.
Usually only small cabin bags are included in the air fare (and in case of RyanAir they are now only allowing really-really small bags without paying extra). Any additional bags need to be bought separately - which can add to the total cost of your trip. Also no liquids in bottles measuring more than 100ml, unless you pay extra for putting your bags in the hold. On trains both the baggage allowance and what you can bring onboard is much more relaxed.
The transfer, check-in, security and baggage reclaim can actually take a substantial time, which might easily eat away a lot of the time gained by the shorter fare time.
Personal
I usually do the Edinburgh-London trip, and usually I have a choice between using an LNER train to London or by finding some cheap tickets from
Edinburgh Airport to London Stansted.
I can usually find train tickets in the £60-£120 price range each way, while air fares are usually between £20-£100. When I can find something in the £20-40 range I usually opt for that, but above it, the extra hassle with baggage (£10-£15), airport transfer (£10-£20) and security means I am usually better off with a £80-£100 train ticket.
Time wise they are also comparable: although the plane flight only takes an hour, I also have to get to and from the airport which can take up to an hour in both Edinburgh and London, and there's still check-in, security, and baggage reclaim, which can easily add to a total of 4 hours, which is almost the same as the the 4.5 hours trip for the train - and on the train there's at least free wifi.
And both of them are usually delayed as well.
3
-1 \ Cherry picking of results for the first graphic. I frequently get a train between Cambridge and Liskeard (Cornwall) for £20--£25. This is 300 miles each way. So we're looking at around 80p/mile, making it potentially the cheaper than all the others on the graphics: half that of Belgium and Italy; a quarter that of France. \ Of course, I have also cherry picked a certain train.
– Sam T
7 hours ago
1
In the UK, we tend to bias our price structure towards cheaper advance tickets; on the continent they do this less. In fact, in the Netherlands you can get an NS card (national system) and the whole system works rather like the Oyster card system in London! While that is convenient, you don't get the cheap advance tickets in the same way
– Sam T
7 hours ago
@SamT it is an image that is circulating around a while in UK newspapers and other media outlets. There is also a source. It might be cherry picked, but it's definitely something that comes up a lot in discussions around the UK train fares
– SztupY
3 hours ago
add a comment |
One of the big differences between UK and EU rail pricing, is that the UK uses the supply and demand and Willingness To Pay (WTP) pricing model similar to that used by airlines, while many EU train services use a much simpler €/km pricing model.
This way, in the UK you get odd things like a short rail journey costing (say) £9.40 single and just £9.60 return; and you get outlandishly high fares for last minute travel on the next train, but reasonably good discounts if you plan your journey weeks in advance and pay for a specific off-peak departure (bit like an airline in that respect).
As for air travel, passengers across Europe have become accustomed to the business model of low-cost airlines, and have the expectation of being able to fly many hundreds of km for next to no money, so long as they are prepared put up with all the rules and regulations of the airlines and the airports. See for example: this story from early 2016
New contributor
add a comment |
Everybody likes nonstops. Partly, the price reflects the number of seat changes, and concomitant waits. Because those break your workflow/experience. Consider train, 3 seat changes with a luscious uninterrupted 4.5hr to focus on your choice of activity:
- seat: local transit to train station
- seat: on train
- seat: local transit to destination
Versus airline, a hot mess of seat changes and required tasks, all short segments, none longer than an hour.
- seat: local transit to train station
- seat: airport connector
- "seat": queue for airport security, take shoes off, laptop in tray, all that jazz
- seat: in airport waiting hall
- seat: in actual airplane
- "seat": at baggage claim, what fun
- seat: airport connector
- seat: local transit to destination
Look at all the buzz. Always active, always doing something, another task you're obliged to do to keep your journey moving, it's hours and hours of "hurry up and wait".
Now maybe you are happy for the task list, if so, there's your choice. But obviously a lot of people think different, because the train is able to command those prices. It's free market, on a 400 seat train, prices are set by the 400th highest bidder.
I don’t think the changes thing really holds up - at best you’re overstating it. The route OP highlights in the question has direct flights but requires at least one and sometimes multiple changes going by train, and it’s generally true (at least in my experience) that trains are much more likely to involve connections then air travel over a comparable distance. Your list for air travel includes time in airport waiting rooms, but the train list excludes time at the station waiting for your train.
– Chris H
7 hours ago
@ChrisH because trains go to many more city-pairs, and can get you much closer if you change. If you limit to air-served cities, probably 1-train direct. No wait for the train because you don't need to show up at the train station 2 hours early on the off chance that security screening is backed up. Show up 10 minutes prior and walk right onto the train. Anyway, every airgate has enough seats for any planethat docks there. Train stations simply don't have acres of space like that, trains are huge.
– Harper
6 hours ago
The example in the question is literally between air-served cities and requires 2 or 3 trains. Can’t begin to fathom how you think that train stations not having acres of space means nobody spends a meaningful length of time waiting between connections, that just seems to be an argument that you might not be able to find a seat while doing so (tbf, not being able to find a seat is exactly the experience I had for a large part of the two hours I spent waiting at Berlin Hbf this weekend, though I’m struggling to see how this is a benefit)
– Chris H
6 hours ago
I just ... feel like that particular one is an outlier, though. Maybe even a ringer... like OP chose it because there is air service (which may be a matter of subsidies), and then is asking the train to "catch up". Which isn't a fair comparison, because for every city-pair where air works out, rail can give 10 others where the tables are turned.
– Harper
5 hours ago
add a comment |
In a free market like in the UK, prices are generally governed by demand and supply and customers Willingness To Pay (WTP). Pricing and Analytics is big business with advanced data crunching and thousands of variables.
It’s as simple as that. So far as consumers are willing to pay a certain price there is little motivation to reduce it.
If and when customers are unwilling to pay the price, the price will drop to the point where they are willing to pay for the goods or service. At that point if the price is such that the company’s costs are exceeding its income, the company either go bust or finds cost cutting measures and efficiencies or sometimes subsidized by government.
Bottom line the prices are high because customers still purchase. Although they both transport people, airlines and trains are not perfect competitors. Each has peculiarities that appeal to a segment of the consumer base at a particular price point.
5
Sorry but in this case the UK isn't a free market. Many types of rail fares - including the one listed are set by the government: orr.gov.uk/info-for-the-public/fares
– skifans
10 hours ago
@skifans I believe my answer already covered that when I talked about government subsidies.
– Honorary World Citizen
10 hours ago
2
To claim that rail travel in the UK operates in a free market economy is broderline laughable. Look at how the railways are allocated but also look at the reality of the necessity to travel for work. You can pay the fare or not work/study/etc. - So it is not a choice. You pay the price because you have to if you want to live. And if you need to access certain stations you don't have a choice between train operators either.
– DetlevCM
8 hours ago
@DetlevCM Perhaps you lack an understanding of what free markets are. You have the option of planes, cars, trains, and buses. The decision to take the train is a choice. Nobody compels you to, and there are alternatives. Perhaps when we say free markets you expect a perfectly free market. Those don't exist.
– Honorary World Citizen
7 hours ago
@HonoraryWorldCitizen the argument that "there are alternatives" is rather weak when national policy is designed to limit the alternatives. Try commuting by car into central London - including the cost of the politically imposed Congestion Charge, and the politically imposed limits (via planning regulations) on available parking. THEN you can tell me it is a viable alternative to a rail season ticket, if you still believe so.
– alephzero
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
I’d say it could be connected to freight carried by air, which enables the airline to offer lower passenger prices. About 15 years ago I regularly flew with Jet2 between Edinburgh - Manchester for around £30 each way (cheaper than a tank of petrol!). Sometimes the outbound flight on a Sunday was only 20-30% occupied, and I used to wonder how they managed to maintain the route. I found out when Jet2 cancelled it - the freight contract had ended.
add a comment |
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6 Answers
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6 Answers
6
active
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Your £133 train ticket isn't tied to a specific connection like your cheap plane ticket is. For some random dates in April I was offered a return for £52 (two singles at £25 and £27 each). These tickets are sold out for your dates, so you're only offered the more expensive semi-flexible tickets.
Always keep in mind the varying conditions when comparing prices.
add a comment |
Your £133 train ticket isn't tied to a specific connection like your cheap plane ticket is. For some random dates in April I was offered a return for £52 (two singles at £25 and £27 each). These tickets are sold out for your dates, so you're only offered the more expensive semi-flexible tickets.
Always keep in mind the varying conditions when comparing prices.
add a comment |
Your £133 train ticket isn't tied to a specific connection like your cheap plane ticket is. For some random dates in April I was offered a return for £52 (two singles at £25 and £27 each). These tickets are sold out for your dates, so you're only offered the more expensive semi-flexible tickets.
Always keep in mind the varying conditions when comparing prices.
Your £133 train ticket isn't tied to a specific connection like your cheap plane ticket is. For some random dates in April I was offered a return for £52 (two singles at £25 and £27 each). These tickets are sold out for your dates, so you're only offered the more expensive semi-flexible tickets.
Always keep in mind the varying conditions when comparing prices.
answered 11 hours ago
StrangerToKindnessStrangerToKindness
45227
45227
add a comment |
add a comment |
Europe-wise train tickets are one of the most expensive in the UK, this image below from The Telegraph is quoted a lot of times in the press and on social media trying to show the disparity with other European countries for:
While it does include a lot of cherry-picking, and doesn't really address why train fares are so expensive (which is still up to debate both by politicians and the general public), it does show that high rail prices are something that you can expect in the UK. Also prices are usually increasing each year as well usually with higher rates than inflation.
Air travel in comparison, especially on low cost airlines is still cheap, it's much more common that low and ultra-low-cost airlines like RyanAir or WizzAir will try to charge you on the extras instead of the plain ticket prices. Also don't forget that although the rail system in the UK is privatised there's not really many competition between the rail companies, as each of them only serves part of the country - there's only a handful routes where you actually have the option to pick between multiple train companies - meaning there's also less of a competition between them to decrease prices. Flight companies however do operate on the same route - meaning there's more competition between them that can affect their prices.
However there are some ways you might be able to get cheaper rail fares.
Use routes that are served by one specific train company
Railway in the UK is privatised and there are multiple train companies operating in the country on a franchise basis. Some companies are only providing train travel on a small part of the country, but some others like Virgin, LNER or CrossCountry operate long-distance trains as well.
When checking routes if you are lucky enough that your trip is served by only one company, then you might be lucky, as they usually have advance tickets for sale. However if the route is served by multiple companies (as you have to switch trains at some point) the price will be dependent whether both of the sections have a cheaper advance ticket, or not.
For example a trip from London to Aberdeen would only include travel on LNER trains - meaning LNER alone could give you a bargain price on an advance off-peak single ticket. However a trip from Manchester to Aberdeen includes multiple companies - likely the Transpennine Express from Manchester to Glasgow, then either CrossCountry or ScotRail to Aberdeen. It's possible in this case that only the section from Manchester to Glasgow is on sale, or only the section from Glasgow to Aberdeen is on sale. It's also possible that there's a cheaper ticket if you wait a few hours in Glasgow - but these options will likely not show up on the booking page.
Also note that although you can book tickets on any train company's website (even for routes that are not served by them) when you have a "single company route" booking on that particular company's website might also get you some extra benefits. For example there's free wifi on LNER trains if you book the ticket on the LNER site, otherwise it's around £3
Book in advance
Also book off-peak or super-off-peak tickets, and book non-refundable tickets that are only valid to one specific train. Similarly to plane tickets the more flexible they are the more expensive they get. Also similarly to them the prices of advance rail tickets might also go both up and down, so it might not always be worth booking too far in advance.
Advance tickets might not always be available - some train companies don't sell them for example at all, as they only have plain peak and off-peak tickets. This can be relevant on routes which are only served by changing trains and train companies.
If there are advanced tickets, for both the outward and return journey then they can be cheaper than an anytime return ticket.
Use railcards
Railcards will give you 1/3 off the price of off-peak tickets. For long distances if you travel with someone a two-together railcard might sometimes make the trip cheaper than the cost of the railcard itself (£30, and you can use the railcard for subsequent travels in the year as well).
If you're travelling alone or in a group you might be able to find other railcards that can help you drive the cost down, especially if you're either a Senior, or younger than 30 years old.
Don't forget that air travel is usually not that simple
Because:
Airports are usually not centrally located, and the transfer from the airport to the city can easily add a lot to the cost of the ticket. Trains usually depart and arrive to the city centre. The transfer ticket from the airport to the city can easily get into the £10-£20 range in some locations, especially London.
Usually only small cabin bags are included in the air fare (and in case of RyanAir they are now only allowing really-really small bags without paying extra). Any additional bags need to be bought separately - which can add to the total cost of your trip. Also no liquids in bottles measuring more than 100ml, unless you pay extra for putting your bags in the hold. On trains both the baggage allowance and what you can bring onboard is much more relaxed.
The transfer, check-in, security and baggage reclaim can actually take a substantial time, which might easily eat away a lot of the time gained by the shorter fare time.
Personal
I usually do the Edinburgh-London trip, and usually I have a choice between using an LNER train to London or by finding some cheap tickets from
Edinburgh Airport to London Stansted.
I can usually find train tickets in the £60-£120 price range each way, while air fares are usually between £20-£100. When I can find something in the £20-40 range I usually opt for that, but above it, the extra hassle with baggage (£10-£15), airport transfer (£10-£20) and security means I am usually better off with a £80-£100 train ticket.
Time wise they are also comparable: although the plane flight only takes an hour, I also have to get to and from the airport which can take up to an hour in both Edinburgh and London, and there's still check-in, security, and baggage reclaim, which can easily add to a total of 4 hours, which is almost the same as the the 4.5 hours trip for the train - and on the train there's at least free wifi.
And both of them are usually delayed as well.
3
-1 \ Cherry picking of results for the first graphic. I frequently get a train between Cambridge and Liskeard (Cornwall) for £20--£25. This is 300 miles each way. So we're looking at around 80p/mile, making it potentially the cheaper than all the others on the graphics: half that of Belgium and Italy; a quarter that of France. \ Of course, I have also cherry picked a certain train.
– Sam T
7 hours ago
1
In the UK, we tend to bias our price structure towards cheaper advance tickets; on the continent they do this less. In fact, in the Netherlands you can get an NS card (national system) and the whole system works rather like the Oyster card system in London! While that is convenient, you don't get the cheap advance tickets in the same way
– Sam T
7 hours ago
@SamT it is an image that is circulating around a while in UK newspapers and other media outlets. There is also a source. It might be cherry picked, but it's definitely something that comes up a lot in discussions around the UK train fares
– SztupY
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Europe-wise train tickets are one of the most expensive in the UK, this image below from The Telegraph is quoted a lot of times in the press and on social media trying to show the disparity with other European countries for:
While it does include a lot of cherry-picking, and doesn't really address why train fares are so expensive (which is still up to debate both by politicians and the general public), it does show that high rail prices are something that you can expect in the UK. Also prices are usually increasing each year as well usually with higher rates than inflation.
Air travel in comparison, especially on low cost airlines is still cheap, it's much more common that low and ultra-low-cost airlines like RyanAir or WizzAir will try to charge you on the extras instead of the plain ticket prices. Also don't forget that although the rail system in the UK is privatised there's not really many competition between the rail companies, as each of them only serves part of the country - there's only a handful routes where you actually have the option to pick between multiple train companies - meaning there's also less of a competition between them to decrease prices. Flight companies however do operate on the same route - meaning there's more competition between them that can affect their prices.
However there are some ways you might be able to get cheaper rail fares.
Use routes that are served by one specific train company
Railway in the UK is privatised and there are multiple train companies operating in the country on a franchise basis. Some companies are only providing train travel on a small part of the country, but some others like Virgin, LNER or CrossCountry operate long-distance trains as well.
When checking routes if you are lucky enough that your trip is served by only one company, then you might be lucky, as they usually have advance tickets for sale. However if the route is served by multiple companies (as you have to switch trains at some point) the price will be dependent whether both of the sections have a cheaper advance ticket, or not.
For example a trip from London to Aberdeen would only include travel on LNER trains - meaning LNER alone could give you a bargain price on an advance off-peak single ticket. However a trip from Manchester to Aberdeen includes multiple companies - likely the Transpennine Express from Manchester to Glasgow, then either CrossCountry or ScotRail to Aberdeen. It's possible in this case that only the section from Manchester to Glasgow is on sale, or only the section from Glasgow to Aberdeen is on sale. It's also possible that there's a cheaper ticket if you wait a few hours in Glasgow - but these options will likely not show up on the booking page.
Also note that although you can book tickets on any train company's website (even for routes that are not served by them) when you have a "single company route" booking on that particular company's website might also get you some extra benefits. For example there's free wifi on LNER trains if you book the ticket on the LNER site, otherwise it's around £3
Book in advance
Also book off-peak or super-off-peak tickets, and book non-refundable tickets that are only valid to one specific train. Similarly to plane tickets the more flexible they are the more expensive they get. Also similarly to them the prices of advance rail tickets might also go both up and down, so it might not always be worth booking too far in advance.
Advance tickets might not always be available - some train companies don't sell them for example at all, as they only have plain peak and off-peak tickets. This can be relevant on routes which are only served by changing trains and train companies.
If there are advanced tickets, for both the outward and return journey then they can be cheaper than an anytime return ticket.
Use railcards
Railcards will give you 1/3 off the price of off-peak tickets. For long distances if you travel with someone a two-together railcard might sometimes make the trip cheaper than the cost of the railcard itself (£30, and you can use the railcard for subsequent travels in the year as well).
If you're travelling alone or in a group you might be able to find other railcards that can help you drive the cost down, especially if you're either a Senior, or younger than 30 years old.
Don't forget that air travel is usually not that simple
Because:
Airports are usually not centrally located, and the transfer from the airport to the city can easily add a lot to the cost of the ticket. Trains usually depart and arrive to the city centre. The transfer ticket from the airport to the city can easily get into the £10-£20 range in some locations, especially London.
Usually only small cabin bags are included in the air fare (and in case of RyanAir they are now only allowing really-really small bags without paying extra). Any additional bags need to be bought separately - which can add to the total cost of your trip. Also no liquids in bottles measuring more than 100ml, unless you pay extra for putting your bags in the hold. On trains both the baggage allowance and what you can bring onboard is much more relaxed.
The transfer, check-in, security and baggage reclaim can actually take a substantial time, which might easily eat away a lot of the time gained by the shorter fare time.
Personal
I usually do the Edinburgh-London trip, and usually I have a choice between using an LNER train to London or by finding some cheap tickets from
Edinburgh Airport to London Stansted.
I can usually find train tickets in the £60-£120 price range each way, while air fares are usually between £20-£100. When I can find something in the £20-40 range I usually opt for that, but above it, the extra hassle with baggage (£10-£15), airport transfer (£10-£20) and security means I am usually better off with a £80-£100 train ticket.
Time wise they are also comparable: although the plane flight only takes an hour, I also have to get to and from the airport which can take up to an hour in both Edinburgh and London, and there's still check-in, security, and baggage reclaim, which can easily add to a total of 4 hours, which is almost the same as the the 4.5 hours trip for the train - and on the train there's at least free wifi.
And both of them are usually delayed as well.
3
-1 \ Cherry picking of results for the first graphic. I frequently get a train between Cambridge and Liskeard (Cornwall) for £20--£25. This is 300 miles each way. So we're looking at around 80p/mile, making it potentially the cheaper than all the others on the graphics: half that of Belgium and Italy; a quarter that of France. \ Of course, I have also cherry picked a certain train.
– Sam T
7 hours ago
1
In the UK, we tend to bias our price structure towards cheaper advance tickets; on the continent they do this less. In fact, in the Netherlands you can get an NS card (national system) and the whole system works rather like the Oyster card system in London! While that is convenient, you don't get the cheap advance tickets in the same way
– Sam T
7 hours ago
@SamT it is an image that is circulating around a while in UK newspapers and other media outlets. There is also a source. It might be cherry picked, but it's definitely something that comes up a lot in discussions around the UK train fares
– SztupY
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Europe-wise train tickets are one of the most expensive in the UK, this image below from The Telegraph is quoted a lot of times in the press and on social media trying to show the disparity with other European countries for:
While it does include a lot of cherry-picking, and doesn't really address why train fares are so expensive (which is still up to debate both by politicians and the general public), it does show that high rail prices are something that you can expect in the UK. Also prices are usually increasing each year as well usually with higher rates than inflation.
Air travel in comparison, especially on low cost airlines is still cheap, it's much more common that low and ultra-low-cost airlines like RyanAir or WizzAir will try to charge you on the extras instead of the plain ticket prices. Also don't forget that although the rail system in the UK is privatised there's not really many competition between the rail companies, as each of them only serves part of the country - there's only a handful routes where you actually have the option to pick between multiple train companies - meaning there's also less of a competition between them to decrease prices. Flight companies however do operate on the same route - meaning there's more competition between them that can affect their prices.
However there are some ways you might be able to get cheaper rail fares.
Use routes that are served by one specific train company
Railway in the UK is privatised and there are multiple train companies operating in the country on a franchise basis. Some companies are only providing train travel on a small part of the country, but some others like Virgin, LNER or CrossCountry operate long-distance trains as well.
When checking routes if you are lucky enough that your trip is served by only one company, then you might be lucky, as they usually have advance tickets for sale. However if the route is served by multiple companies (as you have to switch trains at some point) the price will be dependent whether both of the sections have a cheaper advance ticket, or not.
For example a trip from London to Aberdeen would only include travel on LNER trains - meaning LNER alone could give you a bargain price on an advance off-peak single ticket. However a trip from Manchester to Aberdeen includes multiple companies - likely the Transpennine Express from Manchester to Glasgow, then either CrossCountry or ScotRail to Aberdeen. It's possible in this case that only the section from Manchester to Glasgow is on sale, or only the section from Glasgow to Aberdeen is on sale. It's also possible that there's a cheaper ticket if you wait a few hours in Glasgow - but these options will likely not show up on the booking page.
Also note that although you can book tickets on any train company's website (even for routes that are not served by them) when you have a "single company route" booking on that particular company's website might also get you some extra benefits. For example there's free wifi on LNER trains if you book the ticket on the LNER site, otherwise it's around £3
Book in advance
Also book off-peak or super-off-peak tickets, and book non-refundable tickets that are only valid to one specific train. Similarly to plane tickets the more flexible they are the more expensive they get. Also similarly to them the prices of advance rail tickets might also go both up and down, so it might not always be worth booking too far in advance.
Advance tickets might not always be available - some train companies don't sell them for example at all, as they only have plain peak and off-peak tickets. This can be relevant on routes which are only served by changing trains and train companies.
If there are advanced tickets, for both the outward and return journey then they can be cheaper than an anytime return ticket.
Use railcards
Railcards will give you 1/3 off the price of off-peak tickets. For long distances if you travel with someone a two-together railcard might sometimes make the trip cheaper than the cost of the railcard itself (£30, and you can use the railcard for subsequent travels in the year as well).
If you're travelling alone or in a group you might be able to find other railcards that can help you drive the cost down, especially if you're either a Senior, or younger than 30 years old.
Don't forget that air travel is usually not that simple
Because:
Airports are usually not centrally located, and the transfer from the airport to the city can easily add a lot to the cost of the ticket. Trains usually depart and arrive to the city centre. The transfer ticket from the airport to the city can easily get into the £10-£20 range in some locations, especially London.
Usually only small cabin bags are included in the air fare (and in case of RyanAir they are now only allowing really-really small bags without paying extra). Any additional bags need to be bought separately - which can add to the total cost of your trip. Also no liquids in bottles measuring more than 100ml, unless you pay extra for putting your bags in the hold. On trains both the baggage allowance and what you can bring onboard is much more relaxed.
The transfer, check-in, security and baggage reclaim can actually take a substantial time, which might easily eat away a lot of the time gained by the shorter fare time.
Personal
I usually do the Edinburgh-London trip, and usually I have a choice between using an LNER train to London or by finding some cheap tickets from
Edinburgh Airport to London Stansted.
I can usually find train tickets in the £60-£120 price range each way, while air fares are usually between £20-£100. When I can find something in the £20-40 range I usually opt for that, but above it, the extra hassle with baggage (£10-£15), airport transfer (£10-£20) and security means I am usually better off with a £80-£100 train ticket.
Time wise they are also comparable: although the plane flight only takes an hour, I also have to get to and from the airport which can take up to an hour in both Edinburgh and London, and there's still check-in, security, and baggage reclaim, which can easily add to a total of 4 hours, which is almost the same as the the 4.5 hours trip for the train - and on the train there's at least free wifi.
And both of them are usually delayed as well.
Europe-wise train tickets are one of the most expensive in the UK, this image below from The Telegraph is quoted a lot of times in the press and on social media trying to show the disparity with other European countries for:
While it does include a lot of cherry-picking, and doesn't really address why train fares are so expensive (which is still up to debate both by politicians and the general public), it does show that high rail prices are something that you can expect in the UK. Also prices are usually increasing each year as well usually with higher rates than inflation.
Air travel in comparison, especially on low cost airlines is still cheap, it's much more common that low and ultra-low-cost airlines like RyanAir or WizzAir will try to charge you on the extras instead of the plain ticket prices. Also don't forget that although the rail system in the UK is privatised there's not really many competition between the rail companies, as each of them only serves part of the country - there's only a handful routes where you actually have the option to pick between multiple train companies - meaning there's also less of a competition between them to decrease prices. Flight companies however do operate on the same route - meaning there's more competition between them that can affect their prices.
However there are some ways you might be able to get cheaper rail fares.
Use routes that are served by one specific train company
Railway in the UK is privatised and there are multiple train companies operating in the country on a franchise basis. Some companies are only providing train travel on a small part of the country, but some others like Virgin, LNER or CrossCountry operate long-distance trains as well.
When checking routes if you are lucky enough that your trip is served by only one company, then you might be lucky, as they usually have advance tickets for sale. However if the route is served by multiple companies (as you have to switch trains at some point) the price will be dependent whether both of the sections have a cheaper advance ticket, or not.
For example a trip from London to Aberdeen would only include travel on LNER trains - meaning LNER alone could give you a bargain price on an advance off-peak single ticket. However a trip from Manchester to Aberdeen includes multiple companies - likely the Transpennine Express from Manchester to Glasgow, then either CrossCountry or ScotRail to Aberdeen. It's possible in this case that only the section from Manchester to Glasgow is on sale, or only the section from Glasgow to Aberdeen is on sale. It's also possible that there's a cheaper ticket if you wait a few hours in Glasgow - but these options will likely not show up on the booking page.
Also note that although you can book tickets on any train company's website (even for routes that are not served by them) when you have a "single company route" booking on that particular company's website might also get you some extra benefits. For example there's free wifi on LNER trains if you book the ticket on the LNER site, otherwise it's around £3
Book in advance
Also book off-peak or super-off-peak tickets, and book non-refundable tickets that are only valid to one specific train. Similarly to plane tickets the more flexible they are the more expensive they get. Also similarly to them the prices of advance rail tickets might also go both up and down, so it might not always be worth booking too far in advance.
Advance tickets might not always be available - some train companies don't sell them for example at all, as they only have plain peak and off-peak tickets. This can be relevant on routes which are only served by changing trains and train companies.
If there are advanced tickets, for both the outward and return journey then they can be cheaper than an anytime return ticket.
Use railcards
Railcards will give you 1/3 off the price of off-peak tickets. For long distances if you travel with someone a two-together railcard might sometimes make the trip cheaper than the cost of the railcard itself (£30, and you can use the railcard for subsequent travels in the year as well).
If you're travelling alone or in a group you might be able to find other railcards that can help you drive the cost down, especially if you're either a Senior, or younger than 30 years old.
Don't forget that air travel is usually not that simple
Because:
Airports are usually not centrally located, and the transfer from the airport to the city can easily add a lot to the cost of the ticket. Trains usually depart and arrive to the city centre. The transfer ticket from the airport to the city can easily get into the £10-£20 range in some locations, especially London.
Usually only small cabin bags are included in the air fare (and in case of RyanAir they are now only allowing really-really small bags without paying extra). Any additional bags need to be bought separately - which can add to the total cost of your trip. Also no liquids in bottles measuring more than 100ml, unless you pay extra for putting your bags in the hold. On trains both the baggage allowance and what you can bring onboard is much more relaxed.
The transfer, check-in, security and baggage reclaim can actually take a substantial time, which might easily eat away a lot of the time gained by the shorter fare time.
Personal
I usually do the Edinburgh-London trip, and usually I have a choice between using an LNER train to London or by finding some cheap tickets from
Edinburgh Airport to London Stansted.
I can usually find train tickets in the £60-£120 price range each way, while air fares are usually between £20-£100. When I can find something in the £20-40 range I usually opt for that, but above it, the extra hassle with baggage (£10-£15), airport transfer (£10-£20) and security means I am usually better off with a £80-£100 train ticket.
Time wise they are also comparable: although the plane flight only takes an hour, I also have to get to and from the airport which can take up to an hour in both Edinburgh and London, and there's still check-in, security, and baggage reclaim, which can easily add to a total of 4 hours, which is almost the same as the the 4.5 hours trip for the train - and on the train there's at least free wifi.
And both of them are usually delayed as well.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 10 hours ago
SztupYSztupY
2,05211525
2,05211525
3
-1 \ Cherry picking of results for the first graphic. I frequently get a train between Cambridge and Liskeard (Cornwall) for £20--£25. This is 300 miles each way. So we're looking at around 80p/mile, making it potentially the cheaper than all the others on the graphics: half that of Belgium and Italy; a quarter that of France. \ Of course, I have also cherry picked a certain train.
– Sam T
7 hours ago
1
In the UK, we tend to bias our price structure towards cheaper advance tickets; on the continent they do this less. In fact, in the Netherlands you can get an NS card (national system) and the whole system works rather like the Oyster card system in London! While that is convenient, you don't get the cheap advance tickets in the same way
– Sam T
7 hours ago
@SamT it is an image that is circulating around a while in UK newspapers and other media outlets. There is also a source. It might be cherry picked, but it's definitely something that comes up a lot in discussions around the UK train fares
– SztupY
3 hours ago
add a comment |
3
-1 \ Cherry picking of results for the first graphic. I frequently get a train between Cambridge and Liskeard (Cornwall) for £20--£25. This is 300 miles each way. So we're looking at around 80p/mile, making it potentially the cheaper than all the others on the graphics: half that of Belgium and Italy; a quarter that of France. \ Of course, I have also cherry picked a certain train.
– Sam T
7 hours ago
1
In the UK, we tend to bias our price structure towards cheaper advance tickets; on the continent they do this less. In fact, in the Netherlands you can get an NS card (national system) and the whole system works rather like the Oyster card system in London! While that is convenient, you don't get the cheap advance tickets in the same way
– Sam T
7 hours ago
@SamT it is an image that is circulating around a while in UK newspapers and other media outlets. There is also a source. It might be cherry picked, but it's definitely something that comes up a lot in discussions around the UK train fares
– SztupY
3 hours ago
3
3
-1 \ Cherry picking of results for the first graphic. I frequently get a train between Cambridge and Liskeard (Cornwall) for £20--£25. This is 300 miles each way. So we're looking at around 80p/mile, making it potentially the cheaper than all the others on the graphics: half that of Belgium and Italy; a quarter that of France. \ Of course, I have also cherry picked a certain train.
– Sam T
7 hours ago
-1 \ Cherry picking of results for the first graphic. I frequently get a train between Cambridge and Liskeard (Cornwall) for £20--£25. This is 300 miles each way. So we're looking at around 80p/mile, making it potentially the cheaper than all the others on the graphics: half that of Belgium and Italy; a quarter that of France. \ Of course, I have also cherry picked a certain train.
– Sam T
7 hours ago
1
1
In the UK, we tend to bias our price structure towards cheaper advance tickets; on the continent they do this less. In fact, in the Netherlands you can get an NS card (national system) and the whole system works rather like the Oyster card system in London! While that is convenient, you don't get the cheap advance tickets in the same way
– Sam T
7 hours ago
In the UK, we tend to bias our price structure towards cheaper advance tickets; on the continent they do this less. In fact, in the Netherlands you can get an NS card (national system) and the whole system works rather like the Oyster card system in London! While that is convenient, you don't get the cheap advance tickets in the same way
– Sam T
7 hours ago
@SamT it is an image that is circulating around a while in UK newspapers and other media outlets. There is also a source. It might be cherry picked, but it's definitely something that comes up a lot in discussions around the UK train fares
– SztupY
3 hours ago
@SamT it is an image that is circulating around a while in UK newspapers and other media outlets. There is also a source. It might be cherry picked, but it's definitely something that comes up a lot in discussions around the UK train fares
– SztupY
3 hours ago
add a comment |
One of the big differences between UK and EU rail pricing, is that the UK uses the supply and demand and Willingness To Pay (WTP) pricing model similar to that used by airlines, while many EU train services use a much simpler €/km pricing model.
This way, in the UK you get odd things like a short rail journey costing (say) £9.40 single and just £9.60 return; and you get outlandishly high fares for last minute travel on the next train, but reasonably good discounts if you plan your journey weeks in advance and pay for a specific off-peak departure (bit like an airline in that respect).
As for air travel, passengers across Europe have become accustomed to the business model of low-cost airlines, and have the expectation of being able to fly many hundreds of km for next to no money, so long as they are prepared put up with all the rules and regulations of the airlines and the airports. See for example: this story from early 2016
New contributor
add a comment |
One of the big differences between UK and EU rail pricing, is that the UK uses the supply and demand and Willingness To Pay (WTP) pricing model similar to that used by airlines, while many EU train services use a much simpler €/km pricing model.
This way, in the UK you get odd things like a short rail journey costing (say) £9.40 single and just £9.60 return; and you get outlandishly high fares for last minute travel on the next train, but reasonably good discounts if you plan your journey weeks in advance and pay for a specific off-peak departure (bit like an airline in that respect).
As for air travel, passengers across Europe have become accustomed to the business model of low-cost airlines, and have the expectation of being able to fly many hundreds of km for next to no money, so long as they are prepared put up with all the rules and regulations of the airlines and the airports. See for example: this story from early 2016
New contributor
add a comment |
One of the big differences between UK and EU rail pricing, is that the UK uses the supply and demand and Willingness To Pay (WTP) pricing model similar to that used by airlines, while many EU train services use a much simpler €/km pricing model.
This way, in the UK you get odd things like a short rail journey costing (say) £9.40 single and just £9.60 return; and you get outlandishly high fares for last minute travel on the next train, but reasonably good discounts if you plan your journey weeks in advance and pay for a specific off-peak departure (bit like an airline in that respect).
As for air travel, passengers across Europe have become accustomed to the business model of low-cost airlines, and have the expectation of being able to fly many hundreds of km for next to no money, so long as they are prepared put up with all the rules and regulations of the airlines and the airports. See for example: this story from early 2016
New contributor
One of the big differences between UK and EU rail pricing, is that the UK uses the supply and demand and Willingness To Pay (WTP) pricing model similar to that used by airlines, while many EU train services use a much simpler €/km pricing model.
This way, in the UK you get odd things like a short rail journey costing (say) £9.40 single and just £9.60 return; and you get outlandishly high fares for last minute travel on the next train, but reasonably good discounts if you plan your journey weeks in advance and pay for a specific off-peak departure (bit like an airline in that respect).
As for air travel, passengers across Europe have become accustomed to the business model of low-cost airlines, and have the expectation of being able to fly many hundreds of km for next to no money, so long as they are prepared put up with all the rules and regulations of the airlines and the airports. See for example: this story from early 2016
New contributor
New contributor
answered 7 hours ago
NickNick
211
211
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
Everybody likes nonstops. Partly, the price reflects the number of seat changes, and concomitant waits. Because those break your workflow/experience. Consider train, 3 seat changes with a luscious uninterrupted 4.5hr to focus on your choice of activity:
- seat: local transit to train station
- seat: on train
- seat: local transit to destination
Versus airline, a hot mess of seat changes and required tasks, all short segments, none longer than an hour.
- seat: local transit to train station
- seat: airport connector
- "seat": queue for airport security, take shoes off, laptop in tray, all that jazz
- seat: in airport waiting hall
- seat: in actual airplane
- "seat": at baggage claim, what fun
- seat: airport connector
- seat: local transit to destination
Look at all the buzz. Always active, always doing something, another task you're obliged to do to keep your journey moving, it's hours and hours of "hurry up and wait".
Now maybe you are happy for the task list, if so, there's your choice. But obviously a lot of people think different, because the train is able to command those prices. It's free market, on a 400 seat train, prices are set by the 400th highest bidder.
I don’t think the changes thing really holds up - at best you’re overstating it. The route OP highlights in the question has direct flights but requires at least one and sometimes multiple changes going by train, and it’s generally true (at least in my experience) that trains are much more likely to involve connections then air travel over a comparable distance. Your list for air travel includes time in airport waiting rooms, but the train list excludes time at the station waiting for your train.
– Chris H
7 hours ago
@ChrisH because trains go to many more city-pairs, and can get you much closer if you change. If you limit to air-served cities, probably 1-train direct. No wait for the train because you don't need to show up at the train station 2 hours early on the off chance that security screening is backed up. Show up 10 minutes prior and walk right onto the train. Anyway, every airgate has enough seats for any planethat docks there. Train stations simply don't have acres of space like that, trains are huge.
– Harper
6 hours ago
The example in the question is literally between air-served cities and requires 2 or 3 trains. Can’t begin to fathom how you think that train stations not having acres of space means nobody spends a meaningful length of time waiting between connections, that just seems to be an argument that you might not be able to find a seat while doing so (tbf, not being able to find a seat is exactly the experience I had for a large part of the two hours I spent waiting at Berlin Hbf this weekend, though I’m struggling to see how this is a benefit)
– Chris H
6 hours ago
I just ... feel like that particular one is an outlier, though. Maybe even a ringer... like OP chose it because there is air service (which may be a matter of subsidies), and then is asking the train to "catch up". Which isn't a fair comparison, because for every city-pair where air works out, rail can give 10 others where the tables are turned.
– Harper
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Everybody likes nonstops. Partly, the price reflects the number of seat changes, and concomitant waits. Because those break your workflow/experience. Consider train, 3 seat changes with a luscious uninterrupted 4.5hr to focus on your choice of activity:
- seat: local transit to train station
- seat: on train
- seat: local transit to destination
Versus airline, a hot mess of seat changes and required tasks, all short segments, none longer than an hour.
- seat: local transit to train station
- seat: airport connector
- "seat": queue for airport security, take shoes off, laptop in tray, all that jazz
- seat: in airport waiting hall
- seat: in actual airplane
- "seat": at baggage claim, what fun
- seat: airport connector
- seat: local transit to destination
Look at all the buzz. Always active, always doing something, another task you're obliged to do to keep your journey moving, it's hours and hours of "hurry up and wait".
Now maybe you are happy for the task list, if so, there's your choice. But obviously a lot of people think different, because the train is able to command those prices. It's free market, on a 400 seat train, prices are set by the 400th highest bidder.
I don’t think the changes thing really holds up - at best you’re overstating it. The route OP highlights in the question has direct flights but requires at least one and sometimes multiple changes going by train, and it’s generally true (at least in my experience) that trains are much more likely to involve connections then air travel over a comparable distance. Your list for air travel includes time in airport waiting rooms, but the train list excludes time at the station waiting for your train.
– Chris H
7 hours ago
@ChrisH because trains go to many more city-pairs, and can get you much closer if you change. If you limit to air-served cities, probably 1-train direct. No wait for the train because you don't need to show up at the train station 2 hours early on the off chance that security screening is backed up. Show up 10 minutes prior and walk right onto the train. Anyway, every airgate has enough seats for any planethat docks there. Train stations simply don't have acres of space like that, trains are huge.
– Harper
6 hours ago
The example in the question is literally between air-served cities and requires 2 or 3 trains. Can’t begin to fathom how you think that train stations not having acres of space means nobody spends a meaningful length of time waiting between connections, that just seems to be an argument that you might not be able to find a seat while doing so (tbf, not being able to find a seat is exactly the experience I had for a large part of the two hours I spent waiting at Berlin Hbf this weekend, though I’m struggling to see how this is a benefit)
– Chris H
6 hours ago
I just ... feel like that particular one is an outlier, though. Maybe even a ringer... like OP chose it because there is air service (which may be a matter of subsidies), and then is asking the train to "catch up". Which isn't a fair comparison, because for every city-pair where air works out, rail can give 10 others where the tables are turned.
– Harper
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Everybody likes nonstops. Partly, the price reflects the number of seat changes, and concomitant waits. Because those break your workflow/experience. Consider train, 3 seat changes with a luscious uninterrupted 4.5hr to focus on your choice of activity:
- seat: local transit to train station
- seat: on train
- seat: local transit to destination
Versus airline, a hot mess of seat changes and required tasks, all short segments, none longer than an hour.
- seat: local transit to train station
- seat: airport connector
- "seat": queue for airport security, take shoes off, laptop in tray, all that jazz
- seat: in airport waiting hall
- seat: in actual airplane
- "seat": at baggage claim, what fun
- seat: airport connector
- seat: local transit to destination
Look at all the buzz. Always active, always doing something, another task you're obliged to do to keep your journey moving, it's hours and hours of "hurry up and wait".
Now maybe you are happy for the task list, if so, there's your choice. But obviously a lot of people think different, because the train is able to command those prices. It's free market, on a 400 seat train, prices are set by the 400th highest bidder.
Everybody likes nonstops. Partly, the price reflects the number of seat changes, and concomitant waits. Because those break your workflow/experience. Consider train, 3 seat changes with a luscious uninterrupted 4.5hr to focus on your choice of activity:
- seat: local transit to train station
- seat: on train
- seat: local transit to destination
Versus airline, a hot mess of seat changes and required tasks, all short segments, none longer than an hour.
- seat: local transit to train station
- seat: airport connector
- "seat": queue for airport security, take shoes off, laptop in tray, all that jazz
- seat: in airport waiting hall
- seat: in actual airplane
- "seat": at baggage claim, what fun
- seat: airport connector
- seat: local transit to destination
Look at all the buzz. Always active, always doing something, another task you're obliged to do to keep your journey moving, it's hours and hours of "hurry up and wait".
Now maybe you are happy for the task list, if so, there's your choice. But obviously a lot of people think different, because the train is able to command those prices. It's free market, on a 400 seat train, prices are set by the 400th highest bidder.
answered 8 hours ago
HarperHarper
11.3k32255
11.3k32255
I don’t think the changes thing really holds up - at best you’re overstating it. The route OP highlights in the question has direct flights but requires at least one and sometimes multiple changes going by train, and it’s generally true (at least in my experience) that trains are much more likely to involve connections then air travel over a comparable distance. Your list for air travel includes time in airport waiting rooms, but the train list excludes time at the station waiting for your train.
– Chris H
7 hours ago
@ChrisH because trains go to many more city-pairs, and can get you much closer if you change. If you limit to air-served cities, probably 1-train direct. No wait for the train because you don't need to show up at the train station 2 hours early on the off chance that security screening is backed up. Show up 10 minutes prior and walk right onto the train. Anyway, every airgate has enough seats for any planethat docks there. Train stations simply don't have acres of space like that, trains are huge.
– Harper
6 hours ago
The example in the question is literally between air-served cities and requires 2 or 3 trains. Can’t begin to fathom how you think that train stations not having acres of space means nobody spends a meaningful length of time waiting between connections, that just seems to be an argument that you might not be able to find a seat while doing so (tbf, not being able to find a seat is exactly the experience I had for a large part of the two hours I spent waiting at Berlin Hbf this weekend, though I’m struggling to see how this is a benefit)
– Chris H
6 hours ago
I just ... feel like that particular one is an outlier, though. Maybe even a ringer... like OP chose it because there is air service (which may be a matter of subsidies), and then is asking the train to "catch up". Which isn't a fair comparison, because for every city-pair where air works out, rail can give 10 others where the tables are turned.
– Harper
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I don’t think the changes thing really holds up - at best you’re overstating it. The route OP highlights in the question has direct flights but requires at least one and sometimes multiple changes going by train, and it’s generally true (at least in my experience) that trains are much more likely to involve connections then air travel over a comparable distance. Your list for air travel includes time in airport waiting rooms, but the train list excludes time at the station waiting for your train.
– Chris H
7 hours ago
@ChrisH because trains go to many more city-pairs, and can get you much closer if you change. If you limit to air-served cities, probably 1-train direct. No wait for the train because you don't need to show up at the train station 2 hours early on the off chance that security screening is backed up. Show up 10 minutes prior and walk right onto the train. Anyway, every airgate has enough seats for any planethat docks there. Train stations simply don't have acres of space like that, trains are huge.
– Harper
6 hours ago
The example in the question is literally between air-served cities and requires 2 or 3 trains. Can’t begin to fathom how you think that train stations not having acres of space means nobody spends a meaningful length of time waiting between connections, that just seems to be an argument that you might not be able to find a seat while doing so (tbf, not being able to find a seat is exactly the experience I had for a large part of the two hours I spent waiting at Berlin Hbf this weekend, though I’m struggling to see how this is a benefit)
– Chris H
6 hours ago
I just ... feel like that particular one is an outlier, though. Maybe even a ringer... like OP chose it because there is air service (which may be a matter of subsidies), and then is asking the train to "catch up". Which isn't a fair comparison, because for every city-pair where air works out, rail can give 10 others where the tables are turned.
– Harper
5 hours ago
I don’t think the changes thing really holds up - at best you’re overstating it. The route OP highlights in the question has direct flights but requires at least one and sometimes multiple changes going by train, and it’s generally true (at least in my experience) that trains are much more likely to involve connections then air travel over a comparable distance. Your list for air travel includes time in airport waiting rooms, but the train list excludes time at the station waiting for your train.
– Chris H
7 hours ago
I don’t think the changes thing really holds up - at best you’re overstating it. The route OP highlights in the question has direct flights but requires at least one and sometimes multiple changes going by train, and it’s generally true (at least in my experience) that trains are much more likely to involve connections then air travel over a comparable distance. Your list for air travel includes time in airport waiting rooms, but the train list excludes time at the station waiting for your train.
– Chris H
7 hours ago
@ChrisH because trains go to many more city-pairs, and can get you much closer if you change. If you limit to air-served cities, probably 1-train direct. No wait for the train because you don't need to show up at the train station 2 hours early on the off chance that security screening is backed up. Show up 10 minutes prior and walk right onto the train. Anyway, every airgate has enough seats for any planethat docks there. Train stations simply don't have acres of space like that, trains are huge.
– Harper
6 hours ago
@ChrisH because trains go to many more city-pairs, and can get you much closer if you change. If you limit to air-served cities, probably 1-train direct. No wait for the train because you don't need to show up at the train station 2 hours early on the off chance that security screening is backed up. Show up 10 minutes prior and walk right onto the train. Anyway, every airgate has enough seats for any planethat docks there. Train stations simply don't have acres of space like that, trains are huge.
– Harper
6 hours ago
The example in the question is literally between air-served cities and requires 2 or 3 trains. Can’t begin to fathom how you think that train stations not having acres of space means nobody spends a meaningful length of time waiting between connections, that just seems to be an argument that you might not be able to find a seat while doing so (tbf, not being able to find a seat is exactly the experience I had for a large part of the two hours I spent waiting at Berlin Hbf this weekend, though I’m struggling to see how this is a benefit)
– Chris H
6 hours ago
The example in the question is literally between air-served cities and requires 2 or 3 trains. Can’t begin to fathom how you think that train stations not having acres of space means nobody spends a meaningful length of time waiting between connections, that just seems to be an argument that you might not be able to find a seat while doing so (tbf, not being able to find a seat is exactly the experience I had for a large part of the two hours I spent waiting at Berlin Hbf this weekend, though I’m struggling to see how this is a benefit)
– Chris H
6 hours ago
I just ... feel like that particular one is an outlier, though. Maybe even a ringer... like OP chose it because there is air service (which may be a matter of subsidies), and then is asking the train to "catch up". Which isn't a fair comparison, because for every city-pair where air works out, rail can give 10 others where the tables are turned.
– Harper
5 hours ago
I just ... feel like that particular one is an outlier, though. Maybe even a ringer... like OP chose it because there is air service (which may be a matter of subsidies), and then is asking the train to "catch up". Which isn't a fair comparison, because for every city-pair where air works out, rail can give 10 others where the tables are turned.
– Harper
5 hours ago
add a comment |
In a free market like in the UK, prices are generally governed by demand and supply and customers Willingness To Pay (WTP). Pricing and Analytics is big business with advanced data crunching and thousands of variables.
It’s as simple as that. So far as consumers are willing to pay a certain price there is little motivation to reduce it.
If and when customers are unwilling to pay the price, the price will drop to the point where they are willing to pay for the goods or service. At that point if the price is such that the company’s costs are exceeding its income, the company either go bust or finds cost cutting measures and efficiencies or sometimes subsidized by government.
Bottom line the prices are high because customers still purchase. Although they both transport people, airlines and trains are not perfect competitors. Each has peculiarities that appeal to a segment of the consumer base at a particular price point.
5
Sorry but in this case the UK isn't a free market. Many types of rail fares - including the one listed are set by the government: orr.gov.uk/info-for-the-public/fares
– skifans
10 hours ago
@skifans I believe my answer already covered that when I talked about government subsidies.
– Honorary World Citizen
10 hours ago
2
To claim that rail travel in the UK operates in a free market economy is broderline laughable. Look at how the railways are allocated but also look at the reality of the necessity to travel for work. You can pay the fare or not work/study/etc. - So it is not a choice. You pay the price because you have to if you want to live. And if you need to access certain stations you don't have a choice between train operators either.
– DetlevCM
8 hours ago
@DetlevCM Perhaps you lack an understanding of what free markets are. You have the option of planes, cars, trains, and buses. The decision to take the train is a choice. Nobody compels you to, and there are alternatives. Perhaps when we say free markets you expect a perfectly free market. Those don't exist.
– Honorary World Citizen
7 hours ago
@HonoraryWorldCitizen the argument that "there are alternatives" is rather weak when national policy is designed to limit the alternatives. Try commuting by car into central London - including the cost of the politically imposed Congestion Charge, and the politically imposed limits (via planning regulations) on available parking. THEN you can tell me it is a viable alternative to a rail season ticket, if you still believe so.
– alephzero
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
In a free market like in the UK, prices are generally governed by demand and supply and customers Willingness To Pay (WTP). Pricing and Analytics is big business with advanced data crunching and thousands of variables.
It’s as simple as that. So far as consumers are willing to pay a certain price there is little motivation to reduce it.
If and when customers are unwilling to pay the price, the price will drop to the point where they are willing to pay for the goods or service. At that point if the price is such that the company’s costs are exceeding its income, the company either go bust or finds cost cutting measures and efficiencies or sometimes subsidized by government.
Bottom line the prices are high because customers still purchase. Although they both transport people, airlines and trains are not perfect competitors. Each has peculiarities that appeal to a segment of the consumer base at a particular price point.
5
Sorry but in this case the UK isn't a free market. Many types of rail fares - including the one listed are set by the government: orr.gov.uk/info-for-the-public/fares
– skifans
10 hours ago
@skifans I believe my answer already covered that when I talked about government subsidies.
– Honorary World Citizen
10 hours ago
2
To claim that rail travel in the UK operates in a free market economy is broderline laughable. Look at how the railways are allocated but also look at the reality of the necessity to travel for work. You can pay the fare or not work/study/etc. - So it is not a choice. You pay the price because you have to if you want to live. And if you need to access certain stations you don't have a choice between train operators either.
– DetlevCM
8 hours ago
@DetlevCM Perhaps you lack an understanding of what free markets are. You have the option of planes, cars, trains, and buses. The decision to take the train is a choice. Nobody compels you to, and there are alternatives. Perhaps when we say free markets you expect a perfectly free market. Those don't exist.
– Honorary World Citizen
7 hours ago
@HonoraryWorldCitizen the argument that "there are alternatives" is rather weak when national policy is designed to limit the alternatives. Try commuting by car into central London - including the cost of the politically imposed Congestion Charge, and the politically imposed limits (via planning regulations) on available parking. THEN you can tell me it is a viable alternative to a rail season ticket, if you still believe so.
– alephzero
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
In a free market like in the UK, prices are generally governed by demand and supply and customers Willingness To Pay (WTP). Pricing and Analytics is big business with advanced data crunching and thousands of variables.
It’s as simple as that. So far as consumers are willing to pay a certain price there is little motivation to reduce it.
If and when customers are unwilling to pay the price, the price will drop to the point where they are willing to pay for the goods or service. At that point if the price is such that the company’s costs are exceeding its income, the company either go bust or finds cost cutting measures and efficiencies or sometimes subsidized by government.
Bottom line the prices are high because customers still purchase. Although they both transport people, airlines and trains are not perfect competitors. Each has peculiarities that appeal to a segment of the consumer base at a particular price point.
In a free market like in the UK, prices are generally governed by demand and supply and customers Willingness To Pay (WTP). Pricing and Analytics is big business with advanced data crunching and thousands of variables.
It’s as simple as that. So far as consumers are willing to pay a certain price there is little motivation to reduce it.
If and when customers are unwilling to pay the price, the price will drop to the point where they are willing to pay for the goods or service. At that point if the price is such that the company’s costs are exceeding its income, the company either go bust or finds cost cutting measures and efficiencies or sometimes subsidized by government.
Bottom line the prices are high because customers still purchase. Although they both transport people, airlines and trains are not perfect competitors. Each has peculiarities that appeal to a segment of the consumer base at a particular price point.
edited 10 hours ago
answered 11 hours ago
Honorary World CitizenHonorary World Citizen
21.3k359112
21.3k359112
5
Sorry but in this case the UK isn't a free market. Many types of rail fares - including the one listed are set by the government: orr.gov.uk/info-for-the-public/fares
– skifans
10 hours ago
@skifans I believe my answer already covered that when I talked about government subsidies.
– Honorary World Citizen
10 hours ago
2
To claim that rail travel in the UK operates in a free market economy is broderline laughable. Look at how the railways are allocated but also look at the reality of the necessity to travel for work. You can pay the fare or not work/study/etc. - So it is not a choice. You pay the price because you have to if you want to live. And if you need to access certain stations you don't have a choice between train operators either.
– DetlevCM
8 hours ago
@DetlevCM Perhaps you lack an understanding of what free markets are. You have the option of planes, cars, trains, and buses. The decision to take the train is a choice. Nobody compels you to, and there are alternatives. Perhaps when we say free markets you expect a perfectly free market. Those don't exist.
– Honorary World Citizen
7 hours ago
@HonoraryWorldCitizen the argument that "there are alternatives" is rather weak when national policy is designed to limit the alternatives. Try commuting by car into central London - including the cost of the politically imposed Congestion Charge, and the politically imposed limits (via planning regulations) on available parking. THEN you can tell me it is a viable alternative to a rail season ticket, if you still believe so.
– alephzero
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
5
Sorry but in this case the UK isn't a free market. Many types of rail fares - including the one listed are set by the government: orr.gov.uk/info-for-the-public/fares
– skifans
10 hours ago
@skifans I believe my answer already covered that when I talked about government subsidies.
– Honorary World Citizen
10 hours ago
2
To claim that rail travel in the UK operates in a free market economy is broderline laughable. Look at how the railways are allocated but also look at the reality of the necessity to travel for work. You can pay the fare or not work/study/etc. - So it is not a choice. You pay the price because you have to if you want to live. And if you need to access certain stations you don't have a choice between train operators either.
– DetlevCM
8 hours ago
@DetlevCM Perhaps you lack an understanding of what free markets are. You have the option of planes, cars, trains, and buses. The decision to take the train is a choice. Nobody compels you to, and there are alternatives. Perhaps when we say free markets you expect a perfectly free market. Those don't exist.
– Honorary World Citizen
7 hours ago
@HonoraryWorldCitizen the argument that "there are alternatives" is rather weak when national policy is designed to limit the alternatives. Try commuting by car into central London - including the cost of the politically imposed Congestion Charge, and the politically imposed limits (via planning regulations) on available parking. THEN you can tell me it is a viable alternative to a rail season ticket, if you still believe so.
– alephzero
3 hours ago
5
5
Sorry but in this case the UK isn't a free market. Many types of rail fares - including the one listed are set by the government: orr.gov.uk/info-for-the-public/fares
– skifans
10 hours ago
Sorry but in this case the UK isn't a free market. Many types of rail fares - including the one listed are set by the government: orr.gov.uk/info-for-the-public/fares
– skifans
10 hours ago
@skifans I believe my answer already covered that when I talked about government subsidies.
– Honorary World Citizen
10 hours ago
@skifans I believe my answer already covered that when I talked about government subsidies.
– Honorary World Citizen
10 hours ago
2
2
To claim that rail travel in the UK operates in a free market economy is broderline laughable. Look at how the railways are allocated but also look at the reality of the necessity to travel for work. You can pay the fare or not work/study/etc. - So it is not a choice. You pay the price because you have to if you want to live. And if you need to access certain stations you don't have a choice between train operators either.
– DetlevCM
8 hours ago
To claim that rail travel in the UK operates in a free market economy is broderline laughable. Look at how the railways are allocated but also look at the reality of the necessity to travel for work. You can pay the fare or not work/study/etc. - So it is not a choice. You pay the price because you have to if you want to live. And if you need to access certain stations you don't have a choice between train operators either.
– DetlevCM
8 hours ago
@DetlevCM Perhaps you lack an understanding of what free markets are. You have the option of planes, cars, trains, and buses. The decision to take the train is a choice. Nobody compels you to, and there are alternatives. Perhaps when we say free markets you expect a perfectly free market. Those don't exist.
– Honorary World Citizen
7 hours ago
@DetlevCM Perhaps you lack an understanding of what free markets are. You have the option of planes, cars, trains, and buses. The decision to take the train is a choice. Nobody compels you to, and there are alternatives. Perhaps when we say free markets you expect a perfectly free market. Those don't exist.
– Honorary World Citizen
7 hours ago
@HonoraryWorldCitizen the argument that "there are alternatives" is rather weak when national policy is designed to limit the alternatives. Try commuting by car into central London - including the cost of the politically imposed Congestion Charge, and the politically imposed limits (via planning regulations) on available parking. THEN you can tell me it is a viable alternative to a rail season ticket, if you still believe so.
– alephzero
3 hours ago
@HonoraryWorldCitizen the argument that "there are alternatives" is rather weak when national policy is designed to limit the alternatives. Try commuting by car into central London - including the cost of the politically imposed Congestion Charge, and the politically imposed limits (via planning regulations) on available parking. THEN you can tell me it is a viable alternative to a rail season ticket, if you still believe so.
– alephzero
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
I’d say it could be connected to freight carried by air, which enables the airline to offer lower passenger prices. About 15 years ago I regularly flew with Jet2 between Edinburgh - Manchester for around £30 each way (cheaper than a tank of petrol!). Sometimes the outbound flight on a Sunday was only 20-30% occupied, and I used to wonder how they managed to maintain the route. I found out when Jet2 cancelled it - the freight contract had ended.
add a comment |
I’d say it could be connected to freight carried by air, which enables the airline to offer lower passenger prices. About 15 years ago I regularly flew with Jet2 between Edinburgh - Manchester for around £30 each way (cheaper than a tank of petrol!). Sometimes the outbound flight on a Sunday was only 20-30% occupied, and I used to wonder how they managed to maintain the route. I found out when Jet2 cancelled it - the freight contract had ended.
add a comment |
I’d say it could be connected to freight carried by air, which enables the airline to offer lower passenger prices. About 15 years ago I regularly flew with Jet2 between Edinburgh - Manchester for around £30 each way (cheaper than a tank of petrol!). Sometimes the outbound flight on a Sunday was only 20-30% occupied, and I used to wonder how they managed to maintain the route. I found out when Jet2 cancelled it - the freight contract had ended.
I’d say it could be connected to freight carried by air, which enables the airline to offer lower passenger prices. About 15 years ago I regularly flew with Jet2 between Edinburgh - Manchester for around £30 each way (cheaper than a tank of petrol!). Sometimes the outbound flight on a Sunday was only 20-30% occupied, and I used to wonder how they managed to maintain the route. I found out when Jet2 cancelled it - the freight contract had ended.
answered 10 hours ago
TravellerTraveller
7,32811433
7,32811433
add a comment |
add a comment |
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Between airports there is no infrastructure to build and/or maintain.
– Weather Vane
11 hours ago
2
But airplanes are much more expensive, and you can use the infrastructure for short travels and freight too.
– Mcload
11 hours ago
Just looked on google flights, I couldn't get much cheaper. What prices are you seeing for flights?
– Philbo
11 hours ago
3
@Mcload it's the other way round: British railways were built for freight and passenger services were the icing on the cake. In the days when most freight was moved by rail, it was known that a passenger service could not be run for profit without freight to pay for the infrastructure. Now, that infrastructure is hugely expensive to maintain.
– Weather Vane
11 hours ago
2
@Traveller I checked and the off peak open return is actually cheapest. But I've put both in (thetrainline for train and google flights for air) and they come out to roughly £130 and £120 respectively. If the OP can get himself an 18-25 or 26-30 railcard (and does this journey more than once a year), they'll probably come out best using rail.
– Philbo
11 hours ago