How could the elevator at The Wall be powered?
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In the show Game of Thrones there is this thing called The Wall. It is a monstrous, 300 mile long bulwark consisting of a fortified ice wall that is 700 feet high (check the wiki for more details). There are also castles/forts along the foot of this wall, as garrisons for the soldiers manning it.
Now, quite conveniently, at some of the castles there exists a sort of elevator built to reach the battlements from the castle 700 feet below the top of the wall. We can see the elevator is built from wood and metal and seems to be a fairly simple construction. No actual mechanism is shown. At the bottom is a lever, that when turned either sends the elevator cabin up or down respectively.
Given world like the one presented in Game of Thrones—What could be used to power the elevator?
Assumption:
- No magic
- The tech level is that of an (at most) late-medieval'ish civilisation
- Should work in the cold weather required to preserve an ice wall
Requirements:
- Works with as little work from people and or animals as needed.
- Can be operated by some sort of lever or switch (either at the top or bottom)
- Maintenance needs should be as low as feasible
Note: I'm aware there might be a canon answer in the books (though I don't remember anything too specific). That is not what I'm asking for, and this would be the wrong Stackexchange to do so anyway. I'm wondering for general reality-based solutions for this problem outside of the actual Game of Thrones context.
science-based technology medieval engineering
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|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
In the show Game of Thrones there is this thing called The Wall. It is a monstrous, 300 mile long bulwark consisting of a fortified ice wall that is 700 feet high (check the wiki for more details). There are also castles/forts along the foot of this wall, as garrisons for the soldiers manning it.
Now, quite conveniently, at some of the castles there exists a sort of elevator built to reach the battlements from the castle 700 feet below the top of the wall. We can see the elevator is built from wood and metal and seems to be a fairly simple construction. No actual mechanism is shown. At the bottom is a lever, that when turned either sends the elevator cabin up or down respectively.
Given world like the one presented in Game of Thrones—What could be used to power the elevator?
Assumption:
- No magic
- The tech level is that of an (at most) late-medieval'ish civilisation
- Should work in the cold weather required to preserve an ice wall
Requirements:
- Works with as little work from people and or animals as needed.
- Can be operated by some sort of lever or switch (either at the top or bottom)
- Maintenance needs should be as low as feasible
Note: I'm aware there might be a canon answer in the books (though I don't remember anything too specific). That is not what I'm asking for, and this would be the wrong Stackexchange to do so anyway. I'm wondering for general reality-based solutions for this problem outside of the actual Game of Thrones context.
science-based technology medieval engineering
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3
$begingroup$
I remember seeing people cranking the elevator into action in one episode.
$endgroup$
– Renan
11 hours ago
1
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science based cannot be the only tag in a question.
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– L.Dutch♦
11 hours ago
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@Renan We do see people walking in a big wheel, like the ones they used to use to reload trebuchets. But I don't recall if the elevator is ever brought up in the books.
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– Ryan_L
11 hours ago
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@L.Dutch Can you suggest more tags? You might even want to add them directly, or is that not-done on this SE site?
$endgroup$
– Mast
9 hours ago
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I added [medieval] since that's the level of tech and important to the question.
$endgroup$
– Cyn
8 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
In the show Game of Thrones there is this thing called The Wall. It is a monstrous, 300 mile long bulwark consisting of a fortified ice wall that is 700 feet high (check the wiki for more details). There are also castles/forts along the foot of this wall, as garrisons for the soldiers manning it.
Now, quite conveniently, at some of the castles there exists a sort of elevator built to reach the battlements from the castle 700 feet below the top of the wall. We can see the elevator is built from wood and metal and seems to be a fairly simple construction. No actual mechanism is shown. At the bottom is a lever, that when turned either sends the elevator cabin up or down respectively.
Given world like the one presented in Game of Thrones—What could be used to power the elevator?
Assumption:
- No magic
- The tech level is that of an (at most) late-medieval'ish civilisation
- Should work in the cold weather required to preserve an ice wall
Requirements:
- Works with as little work from people and or animals as needed.
- Can be operated by some sort of lever or switch (either at the top or bottom)
- Maintenance needs should be as low as feasible
Note: I'm aware there might be a canon answer in the books (though I don't remember anything too specific). That is not what I'm asking for, and this would be the wrong Stackexchange to do so anyway. I'm wondering for general reality-based solutions for this problem outside of the actual Game of Thrones context.
science-based technology medieval engineering
$endgroup$
In the show Game of Thrones there is this thing called The Wall. It is a monstrous, 300 mile long bulwark consisting of a fortified ice wall that is 700 feet high (check the wiki for more details). There are also castles/forts along the foot of this wall, as garrisons for the soldiers manning it.
Now, quite conveniently, at some of the castles there exists a sort of elevator built to reach the battlements from the castle 700 feet below the top of the wall. We can see the elevator is built from wood and metal and seems to be a fairly simple construction. No actual mechanism is shown. At the bottom is a lever, that when turned either sends the elevator cabin up or down respectively.
Given world like the one presented in Game of Thrones—What could be used to power the elevator?
Assumption:
- No magic
- The tech level is that of an (at most) late-medieval'ish civilisation
- Should work in the cold weather required to preserve an ice wall
Requirements:
- Works with as little work from people and or animals as needed.
- Can be operated by some sort of lever or switch (either at the top or bottom)
- Maintenance needs should be as low as feasible
Note: I'm aware there might be a canon answer in the books (though I don't remember anything too specific). That is not what I'm asking for, and this would be the wrong Stackexchange to do so anyway. I'm wondering for general reality-based solutions for this problem outside of the actual Game of Thrones context.
science-based technology medieval engineering
science-based technology medieval engineering
edited 8 hours ago
Cyn
7,06011038
7,06011038
asked 11 hours ago
fgysinfgysin
1,885715
1,885715
3
$begingroup$
I remember seeing people cranking the elevator into action in one episode.
$endgroup$
– Renan
11 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
science based cannot be the only tag in a question.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Renan We do see people walking in a big wheel, like the ones they used to use to reload trebuchets. But I don't recall if the elevator is ever brought up in the books.
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– Ryan_L
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@L.Dutch Can you suggest more tags? You might even want to add them directly, or is that not-done on this SE site?
$endgroup$
– Mast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I added [medieval] since that's the level of tech and important to the question.
$endgroup$
– Cyn
8 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
3
$begingroup$
I remember seeing people cranking the elevator into action in one episode.
$endgroup$
– Renan
11 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
science based cannot be the only tag in a question.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Renan We do see people walking in a big wheel, like the ones they used to use to reload trebuchets. But I don't recall if the elevator is ever brought up in the books.
$endgroup$
– Ryan_L
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@L.Dutch Can you suggest more tags? You might even want to add them directly, or is that not-done on this SE site?
$endgroup$
– Mast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I added [medieval] since that's the level of tech and important to the question.
$endgroup$
– Cyn
8 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
I remember seeing people cranking the elevator into action in one episode.
$endgroup$
– Renan
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
I remember seeing people cranking the elevator into action in one episode.
$endgroup$
– Renan
11 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
science based cannot be the only tag in a question.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
science based cannot be the only tag in a question.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Renan We do see people walking in a big wheel, like the ones they used to use to reload trebuchets. But I don't recall if the elevator is ever brought up in the books.
$endgroup$
– Ryan_L
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Renan We do see people walking in a big wheel, like the ones they used to use to reload trebuchets. But I don't recall if the elevator is ever brought up in the books.
$endgroup$
– Ryan_L
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@L.Dutch Can you suggest more tags? You might even want to add them directly, or is that not-done on this SE site?
$endgroup$
– Mast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@L.Dutch Can you suggest more tags? You might even want to add them directly, or is that not-done on this SE site?
$endgroup$
– Mast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I added [medieval] since that's the level of tech and important to the question.
$endgroup$
– Cyn
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I added [medieval] since that's the level of tech and important to the question.
$endgroup$
– Cyn
8 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
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With counterweights it could be possible to have a "self-powered" elevator in these conditions.
The elevator must be counter-weighted by default with a mass that will make it slowly go down if activated (to activate it, it should be sufficient to manually remove some lock).
This will allow the elevator to go down empty.
if we instead want it to go up empty, we should attach a small additional counterweight, to reach a mass higher than the one of the cabin.
if we want to go down, with people or materials, we still need to attach more counterweight, to reach a balance and avoid a too fast descent.
If we want to go up, with people or materials, we need to attach a heavier counterweight, to surpass the cabin (and content) weight.
The problem is. these counterweights (except for the default one, which is always attached) will remain on the ground level once used and we should return them up to use them. Which will require human or animal work and defeats the purpose.
To solve this issue we could simply use blocks of ice/snow, that presumably self-generate at the top of the wall. In fact, imagine that the pathways on the top must be kept clean, and some excess of snow will be found every day.
So, let's say that there is a set amount of mass that can be lifted each day (varying day by day based on weather conditions?), but this could be an efficient solution.
Edit:
The lever could actionate a mechanism that attach the cabin to a heavy or light counterweight, inverting the direction of the elevator. However, manual work will still be needed after the travel to tare and reapply the weights
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1
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It's an ice funicular.
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– DJClayworth
6 hours ago
1
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It might be worth noting that there's a bit more complexity to this - for sufficient differences in height, you must also take into account the weight of the rope suspending the elevator (and how that changes the mass of your elevator-side and your counterweight-side as the thing moves). This is something theatre curtain systems need to account for, even at 100 feet tall.
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– Delioth
5 hours ago
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Regarding needing to bring counterweights back to the top, I figured that sometimes the lift would need to be winched up manually, but could run automatically with adequate preparation. It would allow the soldiers to set the lift in their downtime, and run it manpower-free during battles.
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– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
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The funicular idea is good -- two cabins counterweight each other on either side of the pulley. And dangle 700' of rope from the bottom of each one to counterbalance the changing amount of rope above each car.
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– Dave X
3 hours ago
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You can't just cut blocks of ice out of the wall; there'd be no wall left. No free lunch: same amount of work to carry blocks up, to send them down, as it is to just bring up the car.
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– Mazura
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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Good old pulleys
A major improvement from the 4th century BC and still in use today, is the compound pulley: a combination of single pulleys in a block. The mechanical advantage equals the amount of pulleys used.
A crane with a triple pulley (a "Trispastos") has two pulleys attached to the crane and a free pulley suspended from them. It offers a mechanical advantage of 3 to 1. A crane with five pulleys in a similar arrangement (dubbed a "Pentaspostos") offers a mechanical advantage of 5 to 1.
Using a compound pulley a man can lift more than he is otherwise able to. If a single man pulling a rope can exert a force of 50 kg, he can raise (or lower) 150 kg using a Trispastos and 250 kg using a Pentaspostos. The same goes for the rope. A rope with a tensile strength of 50 kilograms can be used to lift (or lower) 150 kilograms if 3 pulleys are used, and 250 kilograms if 5 pulleys are used.
And you can pull the rope using winches and capstans
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7
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Aren't the guys in that picture actually pushing the rope?
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– tobias_k
9 hours ago
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@tobias_k, now that you make me look...
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– L.Dutch♦
9 hours ago
4
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not the way they are hunched. they look like they are pushing.
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– ths
7 hours ago
1
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-1, this doesn't answer the question - pulleys aren't a power source. They don't change the amount of work required by a person/animal in the slightest.
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– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
1
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They're not pushing the rope. There's another rope at the top of the stack which the artist didn't bother to render in detail, they are pulling that. The visible rope is the slack line going off, fair chance it's a loop actually and would have a tensioner to keep the slack out.
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– Harper
3 hours ago
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show 5 more comments
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Coming down is easy, you just need a braking system, so I won't worry too much about that. Going up is the hard bit.
1. Donkey power
Nice and simple, the horse powered pump or winch is a bit of technology as old as time. In this case you're going to use your donkey/ass/mule/horse to winch a weight up to the top of the wall. When you want to ascend the pulley with the weight is linked to the pulley with the lift. Weight comes down, lift goes up. The equine is then returned to duty winching the weight back up.
2. Water power
A similar system to the horse winch but this time the counter weight is a water tank refilled at the top and emptied when at the bottom. You pour enough water into the tank that the lift starts to rise, you can also use this as part of your braking system by removing only just enough water that the lift starts to fall. Appropriate speed controllers should remain in place.
3. Men in a hamster wheel
This is a very old system for controlling such systems, used in the appropriate period for cranes when building castles. This could also be the equines from method 1 controlling the winch directly.
The lever
Rings a bell to tell whoever is in control to do their job. Control systems aren't worth the hassle in the age of manual labour.
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How about a spring system?
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– Mast
9 hours ago
3
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water power might be tricky (though not impossible) with: "Should work in the cold weather required to preserve an ice wall."
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– YoungJohn
9 hours ago
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@Mast, springs aren't particularly good for this sort of thing
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– Separatrix
9 hours ago
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#3 is technically called a treadmill. For what it's worth, operating a treadmill was often part of prison life, where appropriate.
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– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
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Bells are still used in lifts in modern times for communication, especially in mining. A system of rings similar to morse code is used to issue simple commands. This system can sometimes malfunction and leave people stuck at the bottom of a mine: sudbury.com/local-news/…
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– Paul Belanger
7 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
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Wind power. The ice wall is going to guarantee fairly steady winds, so a windmill or mills at the top will provide plenty of power. For low wind periods, the windmill lifts rocks during windy times. If the wind isn't blowing, a sufficient number of rocks are placed in the "down" cage to act as a counterweight.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
Treadwheel crane
The goto device for heavy lifting in the medieval era is the treadwheel crane. Larger ones can lift some extremely heavy loads even with only one or two operators. If the elevator has an alternating counter weight a single person or animal could move an elevator easily. The largest cranes could lift multiple tons with ease.
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add a comment |
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5 Answers
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5 Answers
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active
oldest
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$begingroup$
With counterweights it could be possible to have a "self-powered" elevator in these conditions.
The elevator must be counter-weighted by default with a mass that will make it slowly go down if activated (to activate it, it should be sufficient to manually remove some lock).
This will allow the elevator to go down empty.
if we instead want it to go up empty, we should attach a small additional counterweight, to reach a mass higher than the one of the cabin.
if we want to go down, with people or materials, we still need to attach more counterweight, to reach a balance and avoid a too fast descent.
If we want to go up, with people or materials, we need to attach a heavier counterweight, to surpass the cabin (and content) weight.
The problem is. these counterweights (except for the default one, which is always attached) will remain on the ground level once used and we should return them up to use them. Which will require human or animal work and defeats the purpose.
To solve this issue we could simply use blocks of ice/snow, that presumably self-generate at the top of the wall. In fact, imagine that the pathways on the top must be kept clean, and some excess of snow will be found every day.
So, let's say that there is a set amount of mass that can be lifted each day (varying day by day based on weather conditions?), but this could be an efficient solution.
Edit:
The lever could actionate a mechanism that attach the cabin to a heavy or light counterweight, inverting the direction of the elevator. However, manual work will still be needed after the travel to tare and reapply the weights
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
It's an ice funicular.
$endgroup$
– DJClayworth
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
It might be worth noting that there's a bit more complexity to this - for sufficient differences in height, you must also take into account the weight of the rope suspending the elevator (and how that changes the mass of your elevator-side and your counterweight-side as the thing moves). This is something theatre curtain systems need to account for, even at 100 feet tall.
$endgroup$
– Delioth
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Regarding needing to bring counterweights back to the top, I figured that sometimes the lift would need to be winched up manually, but could run automatically with adequate preparation. It would allow the soldiers to set the lift in their downtime, and run it manpower-free during battles.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The funicular idea is good -- two cabins counterweight each other on either side of the pulley. And dangle 700' of rope from the bottom of each one to counterbalance the changing amount of rope above each car.
$endgroup$
– Dave X
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
You can't just cut blocks of ice out of the wall; there'd be no wall left. No free lunch: same amount of work to carry blocks up, to send them down, as it is to just bring up the car.
$endgroup$
– Mazura
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
With counterweights it could be possible to have a "self-powered" elevator in these conditions.
The elevator must be counter-weighted by default with a mass that will make it slowly go down if activated (to activate it, it should be sufficient to manually remove some lock).
This will allow the elevator to go down empty.
if we instead want it to go up empty, we should attach a small additional counterweight, to reach a mass higher than the one of the cabin.
if we want to go down, with people or materials, we still need to attach more counterweight, to reach a balance and avoid a too fast descent.
If we want to go up, with people or materials, we need to attach a heavier counterweight, to surpass the cabin (and content) weight.
The problem is. these counterweights (except for the default one, which is always attached) will remain on the ground level once used and we should return them up to use them. Which will require human or animal work and defeats the purpose.
To solve this issue we could simply use blocks of ice/snow, that presumably self-generate at the top of the wall. In fact, imagine that the pathways on the top must be kept clean, and some excess of snow will be found every day.
So, let's say that there is a set amount of mass that can be lifted each day (varying day by day based on weather conditions?), but this could be an efficient solution.
Edit:
The lever could actionate a mechanism that attach the cabin to a heavy or light counterweight, inverting the direction of the elevator. However, manual work will still be needed after the travel to tare and reapply the weights
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
It's an ice funicular.
$endgroup$
– DJClayworth
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
It might be worth noting that there's a bit more complexity to this - for sufficient differences in height, you must also take into account the weight of the rope suspending the elevator (and how that changes the mass of your elevator-side and your counterweight-side as the thing moves). This is something theatre curtain systems need to account for, even at 100 feet tall.
$endgroup$
– Delioth
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Regarding needing to bring counterweights back to the top, I figured that sometimes the lift would need to be winched up manually, but could run automatically with adequate preparation. It would allow the soldiers to set the lift in their downtime, and run it manpower-free during battles.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The funicular idea is good -- two cabins counterweight each other on either side of the pulley. And dangle 700' of rope from the bottom of each one to counterbalance the changing amount of rope above each car.
$endgroup$
– Dave X
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
You can't just cut blocks of ice out of the wall; there'd be no wall left. No free lunch: same amount of work to carry blocks up, to send them down, as it is to just bring up the car.
$endgroup$
– Mazura
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
With counterweights it could be possible to have a "self-powered" elevator in these conditions.
The elevator must be counter-weighted by default with a mass that will make it slowly go down if activated (to activate it, it should be sufficient to manually remove some lock).
This will allow the elevator to go down empty.
if we instead want it to go up empty, we should attach a small additional counterweight, to reach a mass higher than the one of the cabin.
if we want to go down, with people or materials, we still need to attach more counterweight, to reach a balance and avoid a too fast descent.
If we want to go up, with people or materials, we need to attach a heavier counterweight, to surpass the cabin (and content) weight.
The problem is. these counterweights (except for the default one, which is always attached) will remain on the ground level once used and we should return them up to use them. Which will require human or animal work and defeats the purpose.
To solve this issue we could simply use blocks of ice/snow, that presumably self-generate at the top of the wall. In fact, imagine that the pathways on the top must be kept clean, and some excess of snow will be found every day.
So, let's say that there is a set amount of mass that can be lifted each day (varying day by day based on weather conditions?), but this could be an efficient solution.
Edit:
The lever could actionate a mechanism that attach the cabin to a heavy or light counterweight, inverting the direction of the elevator. However, manual work will still be needed after the travel to tare and reapply the weights
$endgroup$
With counterweights it could be possible to have a "self-powered" elevator in these conditions.
The elevator must be counter-weighted by default with a mass that will make it slowly go down if activated (to activate it, it should be sufficient to manually remove some lock).
This will allow the elevator to go down empty.
if we instead want it to go up empty, we should attach a small additional counterweight, to reach a mass higher than the one of the cabin.
if we want to go down, with people or materials, we still need to attach more counterweight, to reach a balance and avoid a too fast descent.
If we want to go up, with people or materials, we need to attach a heavier counterweight, to surpass the cabin (and content) weight.
The problem is. these counterweights (except for the default one, which is always attached) will remain on the ground level once used and we should return them up to use them. Which will require human or animal work and defeats the purpose.
To solve this issue we could simply use blocks of ice/snow, that presumably self-generate at the top of the wall. In fact, imagine that the pathways on the top must be kept clean, and some excess of snow will be found every day.
So, let's say that there is a set amount of mass that can be lifted each day (varying day by day based on weather conditions?), but this could be an efficient solution.
Edit:
The lever could actionate a mechanism that attach the cabin to a heavy or light counterweight, inverting the direction of the elevator. However, manual work will still be needed after the travel to tare and reapply the weights
edited 9 hours ago
answered 11 hours ago
JacopoJacopo
22915
22915
1
$begingroup$
It's an ice funicular.
$endgroup$
– DJClayworth
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
It might be worth noting that there's a bit more complexity to this - for sufficient differences in height, you must also take into account the weight of the rope suspending the elevator (and how that changes the mass of your elevator-side and your counterweight-side as the thing moves). This is something theatre curtain systems need to account for, even at 100 feet tall.
$endgroup$
– Delioth
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Regarding needing to bring counterweights back to the top, I figured that sometimes the lift would need to be winched up manually, but could run automatically with adequate preparation. It would allow the soldiers to set the lift in their downtime, and run it manpower-free during battles.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The funicular idea is good -- two cabins counterweight each other on either side of the pulley. And dangle 700' of rope from the bottom of each one to counterbalance the changing amount of rope above each car.
$endgroup$
– Dave X
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
You can't just cut blocks of ice out of the wall; there'd be no wall left. No free lunch: same amount of work to carry blocks up, to send them down, as it is to just bring up the car.
$endgroup$
– Mazura
2 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
It's an ice funicular.
$endgroup$
– DJClayworth
6 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
It might be worth noting that there's a bit more complexity to this - for sufficient differences in height, you must also take into account the weight of the rope suspending the elevator (and how that changes the mass of your elevator-side and your counterweight-side as the thing moves). This is something theatre curtain systems need to account for, even at 100 feet tall.
$endgroup$
– Delioth
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Regarding needing to bring counterweights back to the top, I figured that sometimes the lift would need to be winched up manually, but could run automatically with adequate preparation. It would allow the soldiers to set the lift in their downtime, and run it manpower-free during battles.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The funicular idea is good -- two cabins counterweight each other on either side of the pulley. And dangle 700' of rope from the bottom of each one to counterbalance the changing amount of rope above each car.
$endgroup$
– Dave X
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
You can't just cut blocks of ice out of the wall; there'd be no wall left. No free lunch: same amount of work to carry blocks up, to send them down, as it is to just bring up the car.
$endgroup$
– Mazura
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
It's an ice funicular.
$endgroup$
– DJClayworth
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's an ice funicular.
$endgroup$
– DJClayworth
6 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
It might be worth noting that there's a bit more complexity to this - for sufficient differences in height, you must also take into account the weight of the rope suspending the elevator (and how that changes the mass of your elevator-side and your counterweight-side as the thing moves). This is something theatre curtain systems need to account for, even at 100 feet tall.
$endgroup$
– Delioth
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
It might be worth noting that there's a bit more complexity to this - for sufficient differences in height, you must also take into account the weight of the rope suspending the elevator (and how that changes the mass of your elevator-side and your counterweight-side as the thing moves). This is something theatre curtain systems need to account for, even at 100 feet tall.
$endgroup$
– Delioth
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Regarding needing to bring counterweights back to the top, I figured that sometimes the lift would need to be winched up manually, but could run automatically with adequate preparation. It would allow the soldiers to set the lift in their downtime, and run it manpower-free during battles.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Regarding needing to bring counterweights back to the top, I figured that sometimes the lift would need to be winched up manually, but could run automatically with adequate preparation. It would allow the soldiers to set the lift in their downtime, and run it manpower-free during battles.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The funicular idea is good -- two cabins counterweight each other on either side of the pulley. And dangle 700' of rope from the bottom of each one to counterbalance the changing amount of rope above each car.
$endgroup$
– Dave X
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
The funicular idea is good -- two cabins counterweight each other on either side of the pulley. And dangle 700' of rope from the bottom of each one to counterbalance the changing amount of rope above each car.
$endgroup$
– Dave X
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
You can't just cut blocks of ice out of the wall; there'd be no wall left. No free lunch: same amount of work to carry blocks up, to send them down, as it is to just bring up the car.
$endgroup$
– Mazura
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You can't just cut blocks of ice out of the wall; there'd be no wall left. No free lunch: same amount of work to carry blocks up, to send them down, as it is to just bring up the car.
$endgroup$
– Mazura
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Good old pulleys
A major improvement from the 4th century BC and still in use today, is the compound pulley: a combination of single pulleys in a block. The mechanical advantage equals the amount of pulleys used.
A crane with a triple pulley (a "Trispastos") has two pulleys attached to the crane and a free pulley suspended from them. It offers a mechanical advantage of 3 to 1. A crane with five pulleys in a similar arrangement (dubbed a "Pentaspostos") offers a mechanical advantage of 5 to 1.
Using a compound pulley a man can lift more than he is otherwise able to. If a single man pulling a rope can exert a force of 50 kg, he can raise (or lower) 150 kg using a Trispastos and 250 kg using a Pentaspostos. The same goes for the rope. A rope with a tensile strength of 50 kilograms can be used to lift (or lower) 150 kilograms if 3 pulleys are used, and 250 kilograms if 5 pulleys are used.
And you can pull the rope using winches and capstans
$endgroup$
7
$begingroup$
Aren't the guys in that picture actually pushing the rope?
$endgroup$
– tobias_k
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@tobias_k, now that you make me look...
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
9 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
not the way they are hunched. they look like they are pushing.
$endgroup$
– ths
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
-1, this doesn't answer the question - pulleys aren't a power source. They don't change the amount of work required by a person/animal in the slightest.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
They're not pushing the rope. There's another rope at the top of the stack which the artist didn't bother to render in detail, they are pulling that. The visible rope is the slack line going off, fair chance it's a loop actually and would have a tensioner to keep the slack out.
$endgroup$
– Harper
3 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
Good old pulleys
A major improvement from the 4th century BC and still in use today, is the compound pulley: a combination of single pulleys in a block. The mechanical advantage equals the amount of pulleys used.
A crane with a triple pulley (a "Trispastos") has two pulleys attached to the crane and a free pulley suspended from them. It offers a mechanical advantage of 3 to 1. A crane with five pulleys in a similar arrangement (dubbed a "Pentaspostos") offers a mechanical advantage of 5 to 1.
Using a compound pulley a man can lift more than he is otherwise able to. If a single man pulling a rope can exert a force of 50 kg, he can raise (or lower) 150 kg using a Trispastos and 250 kg using a Pentaspostos. The same goes for the rope. A rope with a tensile strength of 50 kilograms can be used to lift (or lower) 150 kilograms if 3 pulleys are used, and 250 kilograms if 5 pulleys are used.
And you can pull the rope using winches and capstans
$endgroup$
7
$begingroup$
Aren't the guys in that picture actually pushing the rope?
$endgroup$
– tobias_k
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@tobias_k, now that you make me look...
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
9 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
not the way they are hunched. they look like they are pushing.
$endgroup$
– ths
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
-1, this doesn't answer the question - pulleys aren't a power source. They don't change the amount of work required by a person/animal in the slightest.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
They're not pushing the rope. There's another rope at the top of the stack which the artist didn't bother to render in detail, they are pulling that. The visible rope is the slack line going off, fair chance it's a loop actually and would have a tensioner to keep the slack out.
$endgroup$
– Harper
3 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
Good old pulleys
A major improvement from the 4th century BC and still in use today, is the compound pulley: a combination of single pulleys in a block. The mechanical advantage equals the amount of pulleys used.
A crane with a triple pulley (a "Trispastos") has two pulleys attached to the crane and a free pulley suspended from them. It offers a mechanical advantage of 3 to 1. A crane with five pulleys in a similar arrangement (dubbed a "Pentaspostos") offers a mechanical advantage of 5 to 1.
Using a compound pulley a man can lift more than he is otherwise able to. If a single man pulling a rope can exert a force of 50 kg, he can raise (or lower) 150 kg using a Trispastos and 250 kg using a Pentaspostos. The same goes for the rope. A rope with a tensile strength of 50 kilograms can be used to lift (or lower) 150 kilograms if 3 pulleys are used, and 250 kilograms if 5 pulleys are used.
And you can pull the rope using winches and capstans
$endgroup$
Good old pulleys
A major improvement from the 4th century BC and still in use today, is the compound pulley: a combination of single pulleys in a block. The mechanical advantage equals the amount of pulleys used.
A crane with a triple pulley (a "Trispastos") has two pulleys attached to the crane and a free pulley suspended from them. It offers a mechanical advantage of 3 to 1. A crane with five pulleys in a similar arrangement (dubbed a "Pentaspostos") offers a mechanical advantage of 5 to 1.
Using a compound pulley a man can lift more than he is otherwise able to. If a single man pulling a rope can exert a force of 50 kg, he can raise (or lower) 150 kg using a Trispastos and 250 kg using a Pentaspostos. The same goes for the rope. A rope with a tensile strength of 50 kilograms can be used to lift (or lower) 150 kilograms if 3 pulleys are used, and 250 kilograms if 5 pulleys are used.
And you can pull the rope using winches and capstans
answered 11 hours ago
L.Dutch♦L.Dutch
83.4k28200412
83.4k28200412
7
$begingroup$
Aren't the guys in that picture actually pushing the rope?
$endgroup$
– tobias_k
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@tobias_k, now that you make me look...
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
9 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
not the way they are hunched. they look like they are pushing.
$endgroup$
– ths
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
-1, this doesn't answer the question - pulleys aren't a power source. They don't change the amount of work required by a person/animal in the slightest.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
They're not pushing the rope. There's another rope at the top of the stack which the artist didn't bother to render in detail, they are pulling that. The visible rope is the slack line going off, fair chance it's a loop actually and would have a tensioner to keep the slack out.
$endgroup$
– Harper
3 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
7
$begingroup$
Aren't the guys in that picture actually pushing the rope?
$endgroup$
– tobias_k
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@tobias_k, now that you make me look...
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
9 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
not the way they are hunched. they look like they are pushing.
$endgroup$
– ths
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
-1, this doesn't answer the question - pulleys aren't a power source. They don't change the amount of work required by a person/animal in the slightest.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
They're not pushing the rope. There's another rope at the top of the stack which the artist didn't bother to render in detail, they are pulling that. The visible rope is the slack line going off, fair chance it's a loop actually and would have a tensioner to keep the slack out.
$endgroup$
– Harper
3 hours ago
7
7
$begingroup$
Aren't the guys in that picture actually pushing the rope?
$endgroup$
– tobias_k
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Aren't the guys in that picture actually pushing the rope?
$endgroup$
– tobias_k
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@tobias_k, now that you make me look...
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@tobias_k, now that you make me look...
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
9 hours ago
4
4
$begingroup$
not the way they are hunched. they look like they are pushing.
$endgroup$
– ths
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
not the way they are hunched. they look like they are pushing.
$endgroup$
– ths
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
-1, this doesn't answer the question - pulleys aren't a power source. They don't change the amount of work required by a person/animal in the slightest.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
-1, this doesn't answer the question - pulleys aren't a power source. They don't change the amount of work required by a person/animal in the slightest.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
They're not pushing the rope. There's another rope at the top of the stack which the artist didn't bother to render in detail, they are pulling that. The visible rope is the slack line going off, fair chance it's a loop actually and would have a tensioner to keep the slack out.
$endgroup$
– Harper
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
They're not pushing the rope. There's another rope at the top of the stack which the artist didn't bother to render in detail, they are pulling that. The visible rope is the slack line going off, fair chance it's a loop actually and would have a tensioner to keep the slack out.
$endgroup$
– Harper
3 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
Coming down is easy, you just need a braking system, so I won't worry too much about that. Going up is the hard bit.
1. Donkey power
Nice and simple, the horse powered pump or winch is a bit of technology as old as time. In this case you're going to use your donkey/ass/mule/horse to winch a weight up to the top of the wall. When you want to ascend the pulley with the weight is linked to the pulley with the lift. Weight comes down, lift goes up. The equine is then returned to duty winching the weight back up.
2. Water power
A similar system to the horse winch but this time the counter weight is a water tank refilled at the top and emptied when at the bottom. You pour enough water into the tank that the lift starts to rise, you can also use this as part of your braking system by removing only just enough water that the lift starts to fall. Appropriate speed controllers should remain in place.
3. Men in a hamster wheel
This is a very old system for controlling such systems, used in the appropriate period for cranes when building castles. This could also be the equines from method 1 controlling the winch directly.
The lever
Rings a bell to tell whoever is in control to do their job. Control systems aren't worth the hassle in the age of manual labour.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
How about a spring system?
$endgroup$
– Mast
9 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
water power might be tricky (though not impossible) with: "Should work in the cold weather required to preserve an ice wall."
$endgroup$
– YoungJohn
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Mast, springs aren't particularly good for this sort of thing
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
#3 is technically called a treadmill. For what it's worth, operating a treadmill was often part of prison life, where appropriate.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Bells are still used in lifts in modern times for communication, especially in mining. A system of rings similar to morse code is used to issue simple commands. This system can sometimes malfunction and leave people stuck at the bottom of a mine: sudbury.com/local-news/…
$endgroup$
– Paul Belanger
7 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Coming down is easy, you just need a braking system, so I won't worry too much about that. Going up is the hard bit.
1. Donkey power
Nice and simple, the horse powered pump or winch is a bit of technology as old as time. In this case you're going to use your donkey/ass/mule/horse to winch a weight up to the top of the wall. When you want to ascend the pulley with the weight is linked to the pulley with the lift. Weight comes down, lift goes up. The equine is then returned to duty winching the weight back up.
2. Water power
A similar system to the horse winch but this time the counter weight is a water tank refilled at the top and emptied when at the bottom. You pour enough water into the tank that the lift starts to rise, you can also use this as part of your braking system by removing only just enough water that the lift starts to fall. Appropriate speed controllers should remain in place.
3. Men in a hamster wheel
This is a very old system for controlling such systems, used in the appropriate period for cranes when building castles. This could also be the equines from method 1 controlling the winch directly.
The lever
Rings a bell to tell whoever is in control to do their job. Control systems aren't worth the hassle in the age of manual labour.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
How about a spring system?
$endgroup$
– Mast
9 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
water power might be tricky (though not impossible) with: "Should work in the cold weather required to preserve an ice wall."
$endgroup$
– YoungJohn
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Mast, springs aren't particularly good for this sort of thing
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
#3 is technically called a treadmill. For what it's worth, operating a treadmill was often part of prison life, where appropriate.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Bells are still used in lifts in modern times for communication, especially in mining. A system of rings similar to morse code is used to issue simple commands. This system can sometimes malfunction and leave people stuck at the bottom of a mine: sudbury.com/local-news/…
$endgroup$
– Paul Belanger
7 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Coming down is easy, you just need a braking system, so I won't worry too much about that. Going up is the hard bit.
1. Donkey power
Nice and simple, the horse powered pump or winch is a bit of technology as old as time. In this case you're going to use your donkey/ass/mule/horse to winch a weight up to the top of the wall. When you want to ascend the pulley with the weight is linked to the pulley with the lift. Weight comes down, lift goes up. The equine is then returned to duty winching the weight back up.
2. Water power
A similar system to the horse winch but this time the counter weight is a water tank refilled at the top and emptied when at the bottom. You pour enough water into the tank that the lift starts to rise, you can also use this as part of your braking system by removing only just enough water that the lift starts to fall. Appropriate speed controllers should remain in place.
3. Men in a hamster wheel
This is a very old system for controlling such systems, used in the appropriate period for cranes when building castles. This could also be the equines from method 1 controlling the winch directly.
The lever
Rings a bell to tell whoever is in control to do their job. Control systems aren't worth the hassle in the age of manual labour.
$endgroup$
Coming down is easy, you just need a braking system, so I won't worry too much about that. Going up is the hard bit.
1. Donkey power
Nice and simple, the horse powered pump or winch is a bit of technology as old as time. In this case you're going to use your donkey/ass/mule/horse to winch a weight up to the top of the wall. When you want to ascend the pulley with the weight is linked to the pulley with the lift. Weight comes down, lift goes up. The equine is then returned to duty winching the weight back up.
2. Water power
A similar system to the horse winch but this time the counter weight is a water tank refilled at the top and emptied when at the bottom. You pour enough water into the tank that the lift starts to rise, you can also use this as part of your braking system by removing only just enough water that the lift starts to fall. Appropriate speed controllers should remain in place.
3. Men in a hamster wheel
This is a very old system for controlling such systems, used in the appropriate period for cranes when building castles. This could also be the equines from method 1 controlling the winch directly.
The lever
Rings a bell to tell whoever is in control to do their job. Control systems aren't worth the hassle in the age of manual labour.
answered 11 hours ago
SeparatrixSeparatrix
82k31192319
82k31192319
$begingroup$
How about a spring system?
$endgroup$
– Mast
9 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
water power might be tricky (though not impossible) with: "Should work in the cold weather required to preserve an ice wall."
$endgroup$
– YoungJohn
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Mast, springs aren't particularly good for this sort of thing
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
#3 is technically called a treadmill. For what it's worth, operating a treadmill was often part of prison life, where appropriate.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Bells are still used in lifts in modern times for communication, especially in mining. A system of rings similar to morse code is used to issue simple commands. This system can sometimes malfunction and leave people stuck at the bottom of a mine: sudbury.com/local-news/…
$endgroup$
– Paul Belanger
7 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
How about a spring system?
$endgroup$
– Mast
9 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
water power might be tricky (though not impossible) with: "Should work in the cold weather required to preserve an ice wall."
$endgroup$
– YoungJohn
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Mast, springs aren't particularly good for this sort of thing
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
#3 is technically called a treadmill. For what it's worth, operating a treadmill was often part of prison life, where appropriate.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Bells are still used in lifts in modern times for communication, especially in mining. A system of rings similar to morse code is used to issue simple commands. This system can sometimes malfunction and leave people stuck at the bottom of a mine: sudbury.com/local-news/…
$endgroup$
– Paul Belanger
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
How about a spring system?
$endgroup$
– Mast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
How about a spring system?
$endgroup$
– Mast
9 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
water power might be tricky (though not impossible) with: "Should work in the cold weather required to preserve an ice wall."
$endgroup$
– YoungJohn
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
water power might be tricky (though not impossible) with: "Should work in the cold weather required to preserve an ice wall."
$endgroup$
– YoungJohn
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Mast, springs aren't particularly good for this sort of thing
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Mast, springs aren't particularly good for this sort of thing
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
#3 is technically called a treadmill. For what it's worth, operating a treadmill was often part of prison life, where appropriate.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
#3 is technically called a treadmill. For what it's worth, operating a treadmill was often part of prison life, where appropriate.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Bells are still used in lifts in modern times for communication, especially in mining. A system of rings similar to morse code is used to issue simple commands. This system can sometimes malfunction and leave people stuck at the bottom of a mine: sudbury.com/local-news/…
$endgroup$
– Paul Belanger
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Bells are still used in lifts in modern times for communication, especially in mining. A system of rings similar to morse code is used to issue simple commands. This system can sometimes malfunction and leave people stuck at the bottom of a mine: sudbury.com/local-news/…
$endgroup$
– Paul Belanger
7 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Wind power. The ice wall is going to guarantee fairly steady winds, so a windmill or mills at the top will provide plenty of power. For low wind periods, the windmill lifts rocks during windy times. If the wind isn't blowing, a sufficient number of rocks are placed in the "down" cage to act as a counterweight.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Wind power. The ice wall is going to guarantee fairly steady winds, so a windmill or mills at the top will provide plenty of power. For low wind periods, the windmill lifts rocks during windy times. If the wind isn't blowing, a sufficient number of rocks are placed in the "down" cage to act as a counterweight.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Wind power. The ice wall is going to guarantee fairly steady winds, so a windmill or mills at the top will provide plenty of power. For low wind periods, the windmill lifts rocks during windy times. If the wind isn't blowing, a sufficient number of rocks are placed in the "down" cage to act as a counterweight.
$endgroup$
Wind power. The ice wall is going to guarantee fairly steady winds, so a windmill or mills at the top will provide plenty of power. For low wind periods, the windmill lifts rocks during windy times. If the wind isn't blowing, a sufficient number of rocks are placed in the "down" cage to act as a counterweight.
answered 7 hours ago
jamesqfjamesqf
10.1k11937
10.1k11937
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Treadwheel crane
The goto device for heavy lifting in the medieval era is the treadwheel crane. Larger ones can lift some extremely heavy loads even with only one or two operators. If the elevator has an alternating counter weight a single person or animal could move an elevator easily. The largest cranes could lift multiple tons with ease.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Treadwheel crane
The goto device for heavy lifting in the medieval era is the treadwheel crane. Larger ones can lift some extremely heavy loads even with only one or two operators. If the elevator has an alternating counter weight a single person or animal could move an elevator easily. The largest cranes could lift multiple tons with ease.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Treadwheel crane
The goto device for heavy lifting in the medieval era is the treadwheel crane. Larger ones can lift some extremely heavy loads even with only one or two operators. If the elevator has an alternating counter weight a single person or animal could move an elevator easily. The largest cranes could lift multiple tons with ease.
$endgroup$
Treadwheel crane
The goto device for heavy lifting in the medieval era is the treadwheel crane. Larger ones can lift some extremely heavy loads even with only one or two operators. If the elevator has an alternating counter weight a single person or animal could move an elevator easily. The largest cranes could lift multiple tons with ease.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
JohnJohn
32.7k944116
32.7k944116
add a comment |
add a comment |
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3
$begingroup$
I remember seeing people cranking the elevator into action in one episode.
$endgroup$
– Renan
11 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
science based cannot be the only tag in a question.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Renan We do see people walking in a big wheel, like the ones they used to use to reload trebuchets. But I don't recall if the elevator is ever brought up in the books.
$endgroup$
– Ryan_L
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@L.Dutch Can you suggest more tags? You might even want to add them directly, or is that not-done on this SE site?
$endgroup$
– Mast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I added [medieval] since that's the level of tech and important to the question.
$endgroup$
– Cyn
8 hours ago