Why are French, Italian, Spanish etc. listed as SVO languages?
In this Wikipedia article, French, Italian and Spanish are listed as SVO languages, along with English and Chinese. (However, Latin is listed as SOV.)
I am highly confused about such statement. In those languages, we say
Je te connais
(Yo) te conozco
(Io) ti conosco
(Eu) Ti-cunosc
In all above examples, the word order is SOV. It's the same for, say:
Tu l'aimerais
(Tú) me gustas
(Io) gli dicevo
And then I came up with the question in the title.
I have no problem agreeing that English has SVO order, say
Is lovev youo
romance-languages word-order svo
add a comment |
In this Wikipedia article, French, Italian and Spanish are listed as SVO languages, along with English and Chinese. (However, Latin is listed as SOV.)
I am highly confused about such statement. In those languages, we say
Je te connais
(Yo) te conozco
(Io) ti conosco
(Eu) Ti-cunosc
In all above examples, the word order is SOV. It's the same for, say:
Tu l'aimerais
(Tú) me gustas
(Io) gli dicevo
And then I came up with the question in the title.
I have no problem agreeing that English has SVO order, say
Is lovev youo
romance-languages word-order svo
1
Probably because when using explicit complements (rather than pronouns), the canonical word order is after the verb — that's the case at least for the Iberian languages but I imagine it holds for French. But canonical doesn't mean obligatory either. "A mi mejor amigo un regalo se lo compré yo" is perfectly fine Spanish and OVS but it'd only be used in very limited circumstances. The default is "(yo le) compré un regalo a mi amigo" which is basically SVO
– guifa
13 hours ago
1
btw your first example in French makes no sense. "Je te sais" isn't something any Frenchie would say. You mean "Je te connais" (which is I know you. "Savoir" is for empirical knoweldge, not for knowing someone).
– Patrice
7 hours ago
@Patrice also "carnal knowledge", if we really want to go there
– costrom
5 hours ago
@Patrice "Je te sais amateur de linguistique" is perfectly fine (if of a formal register), even thought that's not what the OP meant. Anyway, there's an argument to be made that all the sentences in the question are just SV, or even just V in the case of French
– Eau qui dort
5 hours ago
@Eauquidort 100%. but "te conozco" is I know you. "Je te sais" isn't exactly the same there. And my point was just that the sentence "Je te sais" isn't something a Frenchie would say. If you add on to the sentence, sure! I was looking at it in isolation though.
– Patrice
4 hours ago
add a comment |
In this Wikipedia article, French, Italian and Spanish are listed as SVO languages, along with English and Chinese. (However, Latin is listed as SOV.)
I am highly confused about such statement. In those languages, we say
Je te connais
(Yo) te conozco
(Io) ti conosco
(Eu) Ti-cunosc
In all above examples, the word order is SOV. It's the same for, say:
Tu l'aimerais
(Tú) me gustas
(Io) gli dicevo
And then I came up with the question in the title.
I have no problem agreeing that English has SVO order, say
Is lovev youo
romance-languages word-order svo
In this Wikipedia article, French, Italian and Spanish are listed as SVO languages, along with English and Chinese. (However, Latin is listed as SOV.)
I am highly confused about such statement. In those languages, we say
Je te connais
(Yo) te conozco
(Io) ti conosco
(Eu) Ti-cunosc
In all above examples, the word order is SOV. It's the same for, say:
Tu l'aimerais
(Tú) me gustas
(Io) gli dicevo
And then I came up with the question in the title.
I have no problem agreeing that English has SVO order, say
Is lovev youo
romance-languages word-order svo
romance-languages word-order svo
edited 1 hour ago
costrom
1034
1034
asked 14 hours ago
iBugiBug
17110
17110
1
Probably because when using explicit complements (rather than pronouns), the canonical word order is after the verb — that's the case at least for the Iberian languages but I imagine it holds for French. But canonical doesn't mean obligatory either. "A mi mejor amigo un regalo se lo compré yo" is perfectly fine Spanish and OVS but it'd only be used in very limited circumstances. The default is "(yo le) compré un regalo a mi amigo" which is basically SVO
– guifa
13 hours ago
1
btw your first example in French makes no sense. "Je te sais" isn't something any Frenchie would say. You mean "Je te connais" (which is I know you. "Savoir" is for empirical knoweldge, not for knowing someone).
– Patrice
7 hours ago
@Patrice also "carnal knowledge", if we really want to go there
– costrom
5 hours ago
@Patrice "Je te sais amateur de linguistique" is perfectly fine (if of a formal register), even thought that's not what the OP meant. Anyway, there's an argument to be made that all the sentences in the question are just SV, or even just V in the case of French
– Eau qui dort
5 hours ago
@Eauquidort 100%. but "te conozco" is I know you. "Je te sais" isn't exactly the same there. And my point was just that the sentence "Je te sais" isn't something a Frenchie would say. If you add on to the sentence, sure! I was looking at it in isolation though.
– Patrice
4 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Probably because when using explicit complements (rather than pronouns), the canonical word order is after the verb — that's the case at least for the Iberian languages but I imagine it holds for French. But canonical doesn't mean obligatory either. "A mi mejor amigo un regalo se lo compré yo" is perfectly fine Spanish and OVS but it'd only be used in very limited circumstances. The default is "(yo le) compré un regalo a mi amigo" which is basically SVO
– guifa
13 hours ago
1
btw your first example in French makes no sense. "Je te sais" isn't something any Frenchie would say. You mean "Je te connais" (which is I know you. "Savoir" is for empirical knoweldge, not for knowing someone).
– Patrice
7 hours ago
@Patrice also "carnal knowledge", if we really want to go there
– costrom
5 hours ago
@Patrice "Je te sais amateur de linguistique" is perfectly fine (if of a formal register), even thought that's not what the OP meant. Anyway, there's an argument to be made that all the sentences in the question are just SV, or even just V in the case of French
– Eau qui dort
5 hours ago
@Eauquidort 100%. but "te conozco" is I know you. "Je te sais" isn't exactly the same there. And my point was just that the sentence "Je te sais" isn't something a Frenchie would say. If you add on to the sentence, sure! I was looking at it in isolation though.
– Patrice
4 hours ago
1
1
Probably because when using explicit complements (rather than pronouns), the canonical word order is after the verb — that's the case at least for the Iberian languages but I imagine it holds for French. But canonical doesn't mean obligatory either. "A mi mejor amigo un regalo se lo compré yo" is perfectly fine Spanish and OVS but it'd only be used in very limited circumstances. The default is "(yo le) compré un regalo a mi amigo" which is basically SVO
– guifa
13 hours ago
Probably because when using explicit complements (rather than pronouns), the canonical word order is after the verb — that's the case at least for the Iberian languages but I imagine it holds for French. But canonical doesn't mean obligatory either. "A mi mejor amigo un regalo se lo compré yo" is perfectly fine Spanish and OVS but it'd only be used in very limited circumstances. The default is "(yo le) compré un regalo a mi amigo" which is basically SVO
– guifa
13 hours ago
1
1
btw your first example in French makes no sense. "Je te sais" isn't something any Frenchie would say. You mean "Je te connais" (which is I know you. "Savoir" is for empirical knoweldge, not for knowing someone).
– Patrice
7 hours ago
btw your first example in French makes no sense. "Je te sais" isn't something any Frenchie would say. You mean "Je te connais" (which is I know you. "Savoir" is for empirical knoweldge, not for knowing someone).
– Patrice
7 hours ago
@Patrice also "carnal knowledge", if we really want to go there
– costrom
5 hours ago
@Patrice also "carnal knowledge", if we really want to go there
– costrom
5 hours ago
@Patrice "Je te sais amateur de linguistique" is perfectly fine (if of a formal register), even thought that's not what the OP meant. Anyway, there's an argument to be made that all the sentences in the question are just SV, or even just V in the case of French
– Eau qui dort
5 hours ago
@Patrice "Je te sais amateur de linguistique" is perfectly fine (if of a formal register), even thought that's not what the OP meant. Anyway, there's an argument to be made that all the sentences in the question are just SV, or even just V in the case of French
– Eau qui dort
5 hours ago
@Eauquidort 100%. but "te conozco" is I know you. "Je te sais" isn't exactly the same there. And my point was just that the sentence "Je te sais" isn't something a Frenchie would say. If you add on to the sentence, sure! I was looking at it in isolation though.
– Patrice
4 hours ago
@Eauquidort 100%. but "te conozco" is I know you. "Je te sais" isn't exactly the same there. And my point was just that the sentence "Je te sais" isn't something a Frenchie would say. If you add on to the sentence, sure! I was looking at it in isolation though.
– Patrice
4 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
French, Spanish and Italian use SVO in clauses with non-pronominal arguments. Many languages make use of more than one kind of word order; the "canonical" order used in simplistic categorizations of entire languages as "SVO" vs. "SOV" etc. has to be based on some particular subset of clauses in the language in cases like that. English isn't SVO in all circumstances either: "What do you want?" is either OSV or OVS, depending on whether "V" is interpreted as being the auxiliary or the lexical verb.
There are a few reasons for preferring to base categorizations on clauses with non-pronominal arguments:
a) pronominal arguments are often optional (in Romance, this is mainly the case with subjects, but I believe objects may be dropped in some other languages)
b) pronominal arguments are not uncommonly expressed as affixes (in fact, there are some arguments about whether French object, and even subject markers are more like prefixes than they are like separate words)
Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =
– guifa
13 hours ago
One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.
– Emil Jeřábek
8 hours ago
"what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS
– iBug
44 mins ago
add a comment |
French has all three patterns SVO if O is a noun, SOV if O is a pronoun or even OVS if O is a relative pronoun.
ex: les émissions que regardent les gens, dont parlent les gens
New contributor
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
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French, Spanish and Italian use SVO in clauses with non-pronominal arguments. Many languages make use of more than one kind of word order; the "canonical" order used in simplistic categorizations of entire languages as "SVO" vs. "SOV" etc. has to be based on some particular subset of clauses in the language in cases like that. English isn't SVO in all circumstances either: "What do you want?" is either OSV or OVS, depending on whether "V" is interpreted as being the auxiliary or the lexical verb.
There are a few reasons for preferring to base categorizations on clauses with non-pronominal arguments:
a) pronominal arguments are often optional (in Romance, this is mainly the case with subjects, but I believe objects may be dropped in some other languages)
b) pronominal arguments are not uncommonly expressed as affixes (in fact, there are some arguments about whether French object, and even subject markers are more like prefixes than they are like separate words)
Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =
– guifa
13 hours ago
One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.
– Emil Jeřábek
8 hours ago
"what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS
– iBug
44 mins ago
add a comment |
French, Spanish and Italian use SVO in clauses with non-pronominal arguments. Many languages make use of more than one kind of word order; the "canonical" order used in simplistic categorizations of entire languages as "SVO" vs. "SOV" etc. has to be based on some particular subset of clauses in the language in cases like that. English isn't SVO in all circumstances either: "What do you want?" is either OSV or OVS, depending on whether "V" is interpreted as being the auxiliary or the lexical verb.
There are a few reasons for preferring to base categorizations on clauses with non-pronominal arguments:
a) pronominal arguments are often optional (in Romance, this is mainly the case with subjects, but I believe objects may be dropped in some other languages)
b) pronominal arguments are not uncommonly expressed as affixes (in fact, there are some arguments about whether French object, and even subject markers are more like prefixes than they are like separate words)
Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =
– guifa
13 hours ago
One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.
– Emil Jeřábek
8 hours ago
"what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS
– iBug
44 mins ago
add a comment |
French, Spanish and Italian use SVO in clauses with non-pronominal arguments. Many languages make use of more than one kind of word order; the "canonical" order used in simplistic categorizations of entire languages as "SVO" vs. "SOV" etc. has to be based on some particular subset of clauses in the language in cases like that. English isn't SVO in all circumstances either: "What do you want?" is either OSV or OVS, depending on whether "V" is interpreted as being the auxiliary or the lexical verb.
There are a few reasons for preferring to base categorizations on clauses with non-pronominal arguments:
a) pronominal arguments are often optional (in Romance, this is mainly the case with subjects, but I believe objects may be dropped in some other languages)
b) pronominal arguments are not uncommonly expressed as affixes (in fact, there are some arguments about whether French object, and even subject markers are more like prefixes than they are like separate words)
French, Spanish and Italian use SVO in clauses with non-pronominal arguments. Many languages make use of more than one kind of word order; the "canonical" order used in simplistic categorizations of entire languages as "SVO" vs. "SOV" etc. has to be based on some particular subset of clauses in the language in cases like that. English isn't SVO in all circumstances either: "What do you want?" is either OSV or OVS, depending on whether "V" is interpreted as being the auxiliary or the lexical verb.
There are a few reasons for preferring to base categorizations on clauses with non-pronominal arguments:
a) pronominal arguments are often optional (in Romance, this is mainly the case with subjects, but I believe objects may be dropped in some other languages)
b) pronominal arguments are not uncommonly expressed as affixes (in fact, there are some arguments about whether French object, and even subject markers are more like prefixes than they are like separate words)
edited 12 hours ago
answered 13 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
9,05811851
9,05811851
Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =
– guifa
13 hours ago
One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.
– Emil Jeřábek
8 hours ago
"what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS
– iBug
44 mins ago
add a comment |
Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =
– guifa
13 hours ago
One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.
– Emil Jeřábek
8 hours ago
"what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS
– iBug
44 mins ago
Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =
– guifa
13 hours ago
Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =
– guifa
13 hours ago
One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.
– Emil Jeřábek
8 hours ago
One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.
– Emil Jeřábek
8 hours ago
"what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS
– iBug
44 mins ago
"what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS
– iBug
44 mins ago
add a comment |
French has all three patterns SVO if O is a noun, SOV if O is a pronoun or even OVS if O is a relative pronoun.
ex: les émissions que regardent les gens, dont parlent les gens
New contributor
add a comment |
French has all three patterns SVO if O is a noun, SOV if O is a pronoun or even OVS if O is a relative pronoun.
ex: les émissions que regardent les gens, dont parlent les gens
New contributor
add a comment |
French has all three patterns SVO if O is a noun, SOV if O is a pronoun or even OVS if O is a relative pronoun.
ex: les émissions que regardent les gens, dont parlent les gens
New contributor
French has all three patterns SVO if O is a noun, SOV if O is a pronoun or even OVS if O is a relative pronoun.
ex: les émissions que regardent les gens, dont parlent les gens
New contributor
New contributor
answered 10 hours ago
Arnaud FournetArnaud Fournet
3522
3522
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
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1
Probably because when using explicit complements (rather than pronouns), the canonical word order is after the verb — that's the case at least for the Iberian languages but I imagine it holds for French. But canonical doesn't mean obligatory either. "A mi mejor amigo un regalo se lo compré yo" is perfectly fine Spanish and OVS but it'd only be used in very limited circumstances. The default is "(yo le) compré un regalo a mi amigo" which is basically SVO
– guifa
13 hours ago
1
btw your first example in French makes no sense. "Je te sais" isn't something any Frenchie would say. You mean "Je te connais" (which is I know you. "Savoir" is for empirical knoweldge, not for knowing someone).
– Patrice
7 hours ago
@Patrice also "carnal knowledge", if we really want to go there
– costrom
5 hours ago
@Patrice "Je te sais amateur de linguistique" is perfectly fine (if of a formal register), even thought that's not what the OP meant. Anyway, there's an argument to be made that all the sentences in the question are just SV, or even just V in the case of French
– Eau qui dort
5 hours ago
@Eauquidort 100%. but "te conozco" is I know you. "Je te sais" isn't exactly the same there. And my point was just that the sentence "Je te sais" isn't something a Frenchie would say. If you add on to the sentence, sure! I was looking at it in isolation though.
– Patrice
4 hours ago