Why are French, Italian, Spanish etc. listed as SVO languages?












3















In this Wikipedia article, French, Italian and Spanish are listed as SVO languages, along with English and Chinese. (However, Latin is listed as SOV.)



I am highly confused about such statement. In those languages, we say




Je te connais



(Yo) te conozco



(Io) ti conosco



(Eu) Ti-cunosc




In all above examples, the word order is SOV. It's the same for, say:




Tu l'aimerais



(Tú) me gustas



(Io) gli dicevo




And then I came up with the question in the title.





I have no problem agreeing that English has SVO order, say




Is lovev youo











share|improve this question




















  • 1





    Probably because when using explicit complements (rather than pronouns), the canonical word order is after the verb — that's the case at least for the Iberian languages but I imagine it holds for French. But canonical doesn't mean obligatory either. "A mi mejor amigo un regalo se lo compré yo" is perfectly fine Spanish and OVS but it'd only be used in very limited circumstances. The default is "(yo le) compré un regalo a mi amigo" which is basically SVO

    – guifa
    13 hours ago






  • 1





    btw your first example in French makes no sense. "Je te sais" isn't something any Frenchie would say. You mean "Je te connais" (which is I know you. "Savoir" is for empirical knoweldge, not for knowing someone).

    – Patrice
    7 hours ago











  • @Patrice also "carnal knowledge", if we really want to go there

    – costrom
    5 hours ago











  • @Patrice "Je te sais amateur de linguistique" is perfectly fine (if of a formal register), even thought that's not what the OP meant. Anyway, there's an argument to be made that all the sentences in the question are just SV, or even just V in the case of French

    – Eau qui dort
    5 hours ago











  • @Eauquidort 100%. but "te conozco" is I know you. "Je te sais" isn't exactly the same there. And my point was just that the sentence "Je te sais" isn't something a Frenchie would say. If you add on to the sentence, sure! I was looking at it in isolation though.

    – Patrice
    4 hours ago
















3















In this Wikipedia article, French, Italian and Spanish are listed as SVO languages, along with English and Chinese. (However, Latin is listed as SOV.)



I am highly confused about such statement. In those languages, we say




Je te connais



(Yo) te conozco



(Io) ti conosco



(Eu) Ti-cunosc




In all above examples, the word order is SOV. It's the same for, say:




Tu l'aimerais



(Tú) me gustas



(Io) gli dicevo




And then I came up with the question in the title.





I have no problem agreeing that English has SVO order, say




Is lovev youo











share|improve this question




















  • 1





    Probably because when using explicit complements (rather than pronouns), the canonical word order is after the verb — that's the case at least for the Iberian languages but I imagine it holds for French. But canonical doesn't mean obligatory either. "A mi mejor amigo un regalo se lo compré yo" is perfectly fine Spanish and OVS but it'd only be used in very limited circumstances. The default is "(yo le) compré un regalo a mi amigo" which is basically SVO

    – guifa
    13 hours ago






  • 1





    btw your first example in French makes no sense. "Je te sais" isn't something any Frenchie would say. You mean "Je te connais" (which is I know you. "Savoir" is for empirical knoweldge, not for knowing someone).

    – Patrice
    7 hours ago











  • @Patrice also "carnal knowledge", if we really want to go there

    – costrom
    5 hours ago











  • @Patrice "Je te sais amateur de linguistique" is perfectly fine (if of a formal register), even thought that's not what the OP meant. Anyway, there's an argument to be made that all the sentences in the question are just SV, or even just V in the case of French

    – Eau qui dort
    5 hours ago











  • @Eauquidort 100%. but "te conozco" is I know you. "Je te sais" isn't exactly the same there. And my point was just that the sentence "Je te sais" isn't something a Frenchie would say. If you add on to the sentence, sure! I was looking at it in isolation though.

    – Patrice
    4 hours ago














3












3








3


2






In this Wikipedia article, French, Italian and Spanish are listed as SVO languages, along with English and Chinese. (However, Latin is listed as SOV.)



I am highly confused about such statement. In those languages, we say




Je te connais



(Yo) te conozco



(Io) ti conosco



(Eu) Ti-cunosc




In all above examples, the word order is SOV. It's the same for, say:




Tu l'aimerais



(Tú) me gustas



(Io) gli dicevo




And then I came up with the question in the title.





I have no problem agreeing that English has SVO order, say




Is lovev youo











share|improve this question
















In this Wikipedia article, French, Italian and Spanish are listed as SVO languages, along with English and Chinese. (However, Latin is listed as SOV.)



I am highly confused about such statement. In those languages, we say




Je te connais



(Yo) te conozco



(Io) ti conosco



(Eu) Ti-cunosc




In all above examples, the word order is SOV. It's the same for, say:




Tu l'aimerais



(Tú) me gustas



(Io) gli dicevo




And then I came up with the question in the title.





I have no problem agreeing that English has SVO order, say




Is lovev youo








romance-languages word-order svo






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 1 hour ago









costrom

1034




1034










asked 14 hours ago









iBugiBug

17110




17110








  • 1





    Probably because when using explicit complements (rather than pronouns), the canonical word order is after the verb — that's the case at least for the Iberian languages but I imagine it holds for French. But canonical doesn't mean obligatory either. "A mi mejor amigo un regalo se lo compré yo" is perfectly fine Spanish and OVS but it'd only be used in very limited circumstances. The default is "(yo le) compré un regalo a mi amigo" which is basically SVO

    – guifa
    13 hours ago






  • 1





    btw your first example in French makes no sense. "Je te sais" isn't something any Frenchie would say. You mean "Je te connais" (which is I know you. "Savoir" is for empirical knoweldge, not for knowing someone).

    – Patrice
    7 hours ago











  • @Patrice also "carnal knowledge", if we really want to go there

    – costrom
    5 hours ago











  • @Patrice "Je te sais amateur de linguistique" is perfectly fine (if of a formal register), even thought that's not what the OP meant. Anyway, there's an argument to be made that all the sentences in the question are just SV, or even just V in the case of French

    – Eau qui dort
    5 hours ago











  • @Eauquidort 100%. but "te conozco" is I know you. "Je te sais" isn't exactly the same there. And my point was just that the sentence "Je te sais" isn't something a Frenchie would say. If you add on to the sentence, sure! I was looking at it in isolation though.

    – Patrice
    4 hours ago














  • 1





    Probably because when using explicit complements (rather than pronouns), the canonical word order is after the verb — that's the case at least for the Iberian languages but I imagine it holds for French. But canonical doesn't mean obligatory either. "A mi mejor amigo un regalo se lo compré yo" is perfectly fine Spanish and OVS but it'd only be used in very limited circumstances. The default is "(yo le) compré un regalo a mi amigo" which is basically SVO

    – guifa
    13 hours ago






  • 1





    btw your first example in French makes no sense. "Je te sais" isn't something any Frenchie would say. You mean "Je te connais" (which is I know you. "Savoir" is for empirical knoweldge, not for knowing someone).

    – Patrice
    7 hours ago











  • @Patrice also "carnal knowledge", if we really want to go there

    – costrom
    5 hours ago











  • @Patrice "Je te sais amateur de linguistique" is perfectly fine (if of a formal register), even thought that's not what the OP meant. Anyway, there's an argument to be made that all the sentences in the question are just SV, or even just V in the case of French

    – Eau qui dort
    5 hours ago











  • @Eauquidort 100%. but "te conozco" is I know you. "Je te sais" isn't exactly the same there. And my point was just that the sentence "Je te sais" isn't something a Frenchie would say. If you add on to the sentence, sure! I was looking at it in isolation though.

    – Patrice
    4 hours ago








1




1





Probably because when using explicit complements (rather than pronouns), the canonical word order is after the verb — that's the case at least for the Iberian languages but I imagine it holds for French. But canonical doesn't mean obligatory either. "A mi mejor amigo un regalo se lo compré yo" is perfectly fine Spanish and OVS but it'd only be used in very limited circumstances. The default is "(yo le) compré un regalo a mi amigo" which is basically SVO

– guifa
13 hours ago





Probably because when using explicit complements (rather than pronouns), the canonical word order is after the verb — that's the case at least for the Iberian languages but I imagine it holds for French. But canonical doesn't mean obligatory either. "A mi mejor amigo un regalo se lo compré yo" is perfectly fine Spanish and OVS but it'd only be used in very limited circumstances. The default is "(yo le) compré un regalo a mi amigo" which is basically SVO

– guifa
13 hours ago




1




1





btw your first example in French makes no sense. "Je te sais" isn't something any Frenchie would say. You mean "Je te connais" (which is I know you. "Savoir" is for empirical knoweldge, not for knowing someone).

– Patrice
7 hours ago





btw your first example in French makes no sense. "Je te sais" isn't something any Frenchie would say. You mean "Je te connais" (which is I know you. "Savoir" is for empirical knoweldge, not for knowing someone).

– Patrice
7 hours ago













@Patrice also "carnal knowledge", if we really want to go there

– costrom
5 hours ago





@Patrice also "carnal knowledge", if we really want to go there

– costrom
5 hours ago













@Patrice "Je te sais amateur de linguistique" is perfectly fine (if of a formal register), even thought that's not what the OP meant. Anyway, there's an argument to be made that all the sentences in the question are just SV, or even just V in the case of French

– Eau qui dort
5 hours ago





@Patrice "Je te sais amateur de linguistique" is perfectly fine (if of a formal register), even thought that's not what the OP meant. Anyway, there's an argument to be made that all the sentences in the question are just SV, or even just V in the case of French

– Eau qui dort
5 hours ago













@Eauquidort 100%. but "te conozco" is I know you. "Je te sais" isn't exactly the same there. And my point was just that the sentence "Je te sais" isn't something a Frenchie would say. If you add on to the sentence, sure! I was looking at it in isolation though.

– Patrice
4 hours ago





@Eauquidort 100%. but "te conozco" is I know you. "Je te sais" isn't exactly the same there. And my point was just that the sentence "Je te sais" isn't something a Frenchie would say. If you add on to the sentence, sure! I was looking at it in isolation though.

– Patrice
4 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















15














French, Spanish and Italian use SVO in clauses with non-pronominal arguments. Many languages make use of more than one kind of word order; the "canonical" order used in simplistic categorizations of entire languages as "SVO" vs. "SOV" etc. has to be based on some particular subset of clauses in the language in cases like that. English isn't SVO in all circumstances either: "What do you want?" is either OSV or OVS, depending on whether "V" is interpreted as being the auxiliary or the lexical verb.



There are a few reasons for preferring to base categorizations on clauses with non-pronominal arguments:



a) pronominal arguments are often optional (in Romance, this is mainly the case with subjects, but I believe objects may be dropped in some other languages)



b) pronominal arguments are not uncommonly expressed as affixes (in fact, there are some arguments about whether French object, and even subject markers are more like prefixes than they are like separate words)






share|improve this answer


























  • Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =

    – guifa
    13 hours ago











  • One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.

    – Emil Jeřábek
    8 hours ago











  • "what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS

    – iBug
    44 mins ago



















3














French has all three patterns SVO if O is a noun, SOV if O is a pronoun or even OVS if O is a relative pronoun.
ex: les émissions que regardent les gens, dont parlent les gens






share|improve this answer








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Arnaud Fournet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    15














    French, Spanish and Italian use SVO in clauses with non-pronominal arguments. Many languages make use of more than one kind of word order; the "canonical" order used in simplistic categorizations of entire languages as "SVO" vs. "SOV" etc. has to be based on some particular subset of clauses in the language in cases like that. English isn't SVO in all circumstances either: "What do you want?" is either OSV or OVS, depending on whether "V" is interpreted as being the auxiliary or the lexical verb.



    There are a few reasons for preferring to base categorizations on clauses with non-pronominal arguments:



    a) pronominal arguments are often optional (in Romance, this is mainly the case with subjects, but I believe objects may be dropped in some other languages)



    b) pronominal arguments are not uncommonly expressed as affixes (in fact, there are some arguments about whether French object, and even subject markers are more like prefixes than they are like separate words)






    share|improve this answer


























    • Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =

      – guifa
      13 hours ago











    • One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.

      – Emil Jeřábek
      8 hours ago











    • "what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS

      – iBug
      44 mins ago
















    15














    French, Spanish and Italian use SVO in clauses with non-pronominal arguments. Many languages make use of more than one kind of word order; the "canonical" order used in simplistic categorizations of entire languages as "SVO" vs. "SOV" etc. has to be based on some particular subset of clauses in the language in cases like that. English isn't SVO in all circumstances either: "What do you want?" is either OSV or OVS, depending on whether "V" is interpreted as being the auxiliary or the lexical verb.



    There are a few reasons for preferring to base categorizations on clauses with non-pronominal arguments:



    a) pronominal arguments are often optional (in Romance, this is mainly the case with subjects, but I believe objects may be dropped in some other languages)



    b) pronominal arguments are not uncommonly expressed as affixes (in fact, there are some arguments about whether French object, and even subject markers are more like prefixes than they are like separate words)






    share|improve this answer


























    • Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =

      – guifa
      13 hours ago











    • One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.

      – Emil Jeřábek
      8 hours ago











    • "what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS

      – iBug
      44 mins ago














    15












    15








    15







    French, Spanish and Italian use SVO in clauses with non-pronominal arguments. Many languages make use of more than one kind of word order; the "canonical" order used in simplistic categorizations of entire languages as "SVO" vs. "SOV" etc. has to be based on some particular subset of clauses in the language in cases like that. English isn't SVO in all circumstances either: "What do you want?" is either OSV or OVS, depending on whether "V" is interpreted as being the auxiliary or the lexical verb.



    There are a few reasons for preferring to base categorizations on clauses with non-pronominal arguments:



    a) pronominal arguments are often optional (in Romance, this is mainly the case with subjects, but I believe objects may be dropped in some other languages)



    b) pronominal arguments are not uncommonly expressed as affixes (in fact, there are some arguments about whether French object, and even subject markers are more like prefixes than they are like separate words)






    share|improve this answer















    French, Spanish and Italian use SVO in clauses with non-pronominal arguments. Many languages make use of more than one kind of word order; the "canonical" order used in simplistic categorizations of entire languages as "SVO" vs. "SOV" etc. has to be based on some particular subset of clauses in the language in cases like that. English isn't SVO in all circumstances either: "What do you want?" is either OSV or OVS, depending on whether "V" is interpreted as being the auxiliary or the lexical verb.



    There are a few reasons for preferring to base categorizations on clauses with non-pronominal arguments:



    a) pronominal arguments are often optional (in Romance, this is mainly the case with subjects, but I believe objects may be dropped in some other languages)



    b) pronominal arguments are not uncommonly expressed as affixes (in fact, there are some arguments about whether French object, and even subject markers are more like prefixes than they are like separate words)







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 12 hours ago

























    answered 13 hours ago









    sumelicsumelic

    9,05811851




    9,05811851













    • Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =

      – guifa
      13 hours ago











    • One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.

      – Emil Jeřábek
      8 hours ago











    • "what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS

      – iBug
      44 mins ago



















    • Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =

      – guifa
      13 hours ago











    • One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.

      – Emil Jeřábek
      8 hours ago











    • "what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS

      – iBug
      44 mins ago

















    Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =

    – guifa
    13 hours ago





    Ha, we had almost the same answer but I accidentally typed it in the comment on my mobile =

    – guifa
    13 hours ago













    One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.

    – Emil Jeřábek
    8 hours ago





    One could mention that positioning of pronouns in some Indoeuropean languages is subject to Wackernagel’s law, unrelated to their syntactic function.

    – Emil Jeřábek
    8 hours ago













    "what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS

    – iBug
    44 mins ago





    "what do you want" <--> "Que veux-tu", same OVS

    – iBug
    44 mins ago











    3














    French has all three patterns SVO if O is a noun, SOV if O is a pronoun or even OVS if O is a relative pronoun.
    ex: les émissions que regardent les gens, dont parlent les gens






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    Arnaud Fournet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.

























      3














      French has all three patterns SVO if O is a noun, SOV if O is a pronoun or even OVS if O is a relative pronoun.
      ex: les émissions que regardent les gens, dont parlent les gens






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Arnaud Fournet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.























        3












        3








        3







        French has all three patterns SVO if O is a noun, SOV if O is a pronoun or even OVS if O is a relative pronoun.
        ex: les émissions que regardent les gens, dont parlent les gens






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        Arnaud Fournet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.










        French has all three patterns SVO if O is a noun, SOV if O is a pronoun or even OVS if O is a relative pronoun.
        ex: les émissions que regardent les gens, dont parlent les gens







        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        Arnaud Fournet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer






        New contributor




        Arnaud Fournet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        answered 10 hours ago









        Arnaud FournetArnaud Fournet

        3522




        3522




        New contributor




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        Arnaud Fournet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        Arnaud Fournet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






























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