Is it possible to find the volume of a 4 dimensional object?












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I know there is 4 dimensional objects but how would you find the volume if it is possible?










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    It is called hyper-volume. The normal 3D volume is the hyper-surface of a 4D object. It is unclear if you are asking about a flat or curved space. Ben's answer is for the curved space. In a flat space, the hyper-volume of a 4-parallelepiped is $xyzt$ and of a 4-ball is $(pi^2/2)r^4$. A normal 3D volume of the hyper-surface (called 3-sphere) of a 4-ball is $2pi^2 r^3$.
    $endgroup$
    – safesphere
    54 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @safesphere: No, my answer is not just for curved spacetime.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    36 mins ago
















1












$begingroup$


I know there is 4 dimensional objects but how would you find the volume if it is possible?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    It is called hyper-volume. The normal 3D volume is the hyper-surface of a 4D object. It is unclear if you are asking about a flat or curved space. Ben's answer is for the curved space. In a flat space, the hyper-volume of a 4-parallelepiped is $xyzt$ and of a 4-ball is $(pi^2/2)r^4$. A normal 3D volume of the hyper-surface (called 3-sphere) of a 4-ball is $2pi^2 r^3$.
    $endgroup$
    – safesphere
    54 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @safesphere: No, my answer is not just for curved spacetime.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    36 mins ago














1












1








1


1



$begingroup$


I know there is 4 dimensional objects but how would you find the volume if it is possible?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




I know there is 4 dimensional objects but how would you find the volume if it is possible?







spacetime geometry spacetime-dimensions volume






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edited 1 hour ago









Qmechanic

103k121851176




103k121851176










asked 2 hours ago









LunaLuna

179




179












  • $begingroup$
    It is called hyper-volume. The normal 3D volume is the hyper-surface of a 4D object. It is unclear if you are asking about a flat or curved space. Ben's answer is for the curved space. In a flat space, the hyper-volume of a 4-parallelepiped is $xyzt$ and of a 4-ball is $(pi^2/2)r^4$. A normal 3D volume of the hyper-surface (called 3-sphere) of a 4-ball is $2pi^2 r^3$.
    $endgroup$
    – safesphere
    54 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @safesphere: No, my answer is not just for curved spacetime.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    36 mins ago


















  • $begingroup$
    It is called hyper-volume. The normal 3D volume is the hyper-surface of a 4D object. It is unclear if you are asking about a flat or curved space. Ben's answer is for the curved space. In a flat space, the hyper-volume of a 4-parallelepiped is $xyzt$ and of a 4-ball is $(pi^2/2)r^4$. A normal 3D volume of the hyper-surface (called 3-sphere) of a 4-ball is $2pi^2 r^3$.
    $endgroup$
    – safesphere
    54 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @safesphere: No, my answer is not just for curved spacetime.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    36 mins ago
















$begingroup$
It is called hyper-volume. The normal 3D volume is the hyper-surface of a 4D object. It is unclear if you are asking about a flat or curved space. Ben's answer is for the curved space. In a flat space, the hyper-volume of a 4-parallelepiped is $xyzt$ and of a 4-ball is $(pi^2/2)r^4$. A normal 3D volume of the hyper-surface (called 3-sphere) of a 4-ball is $2pi^2 r^3$.
$endgroup$
– safesphere
54 mins ago






$begingroup$
It is called hyper-volume. The normal 3D volume is the hyper-surface of a 4D object. It is unclear if you are asking about a flat or curved space. Ben's answer is for the curved space. In a flat space, the hyper-volume of a 4-parallelepiped is $xyzt$ and of a 4-ball is $(pi^2/2)r^4$. A normal 3D volume of the hyper-surface (called 3-sphere) of a 4-ball is $2pi^2 r^3$.
$endgroup$
– safesphere
54 mins ago














$begingroup$
@safesphere: No, my answer is not just for curved spacetime.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
36 mins ago




$begingroup$
@safesphere: No, my answer is not just for curved spacetime.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
36 mins ago










4 Answers
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It is an abstraction and we don't think of it as "volume", but people in warehousing do this all the time: if you rent warehouse space, the amount to pay is some rate times unit volume times unit time, that is some "space-time (4D) volume". Of course time is not measured in the same units as space, so in terms of physics this 4D volume is in units of m³·s (or rather days for warehousing!)



The 4D volume calculation is classically done by multiplying the 3D volume of each item by the time it is stored in the warehouse and sum, but you could well imagine to integrate in another order.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    This answer is not really right, for the same reasons as the answers by James and two other people.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenCrowell Well, I understand that asking this question in a physics forum leads one to think of spacetime in relativity, however the OP does not specifically refer to it.
    $endgroup$
    – Joce
    1 hour ago












  • $begingroup$
    It's somewhat unclear, since the OP originally didn't put in any tags and Qmechanic added the relativity-related tags. But if she's not actually asking a relativity question, then this isn't even the appropriate site for the question.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    28 mins ago



















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Why could we not? It is not that hard to generlize the concept of the Riemann-Integral to $mathbb{R}^n$, and given a measurable subset, we can integrate the characterstic function which gives us the measure of our $n$-dimensional object.






share|cite|improve this answer









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    ok that makes sense would a black hole be an example of a 4D object?
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    no... we live in a 3d universe.
    $endgroup$
    – Hanting Zhang
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    acording to Einstein spacetime is 4D
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    2 hours ago






  • 1




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    space-time. Time is a dimension that is separate from the 3 space ones. It does not contribute to volume.
    $endgroup$
    – Hanting Zhang
    1 hour ago








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why a downvote?
    $endgroup$
    – James
    1 hour ago



















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I know there is 4 dimensional objects [...]




I don't know if I would say it this way. There are 4-dimensional regions of spacetime. For example, a book that exists over some amount of time will sweep out a 4-dimensional region of spacetime, but the book is not a 4-dimensional object.



In relativity we don't have a preferred set of coordinates, and therefore it's not trivial to define volume the way we ordinarily would. In a 4-dimensional spacetime, we can define 1-volume (length), 2-volume, 3-volume, and 4-volume. We would like such a definition to have the following properties:




  1. The definition is coordinate-independent (either implicitly or manifestly).


  2. Any two m-volumes can be compared in terms of their ratio.


  3. For any m nonzero vectors, the m-volume of the parallelepiped they span is nonzero if and only if the vectors are linearly independent.



It turns out that the only m-volume that allows a definition simultaneously satisfying all these properties is the 4-volume, which is the one you asked about. It is not self-evident that there is such a definition or what it should be. For a parallelepiped with edges given by vectors $a$, $b$, $c$, and $d$, the 4-volume is defined by



$V=epsilon_{ijkl}a^ib^jc^kd^l,$



where $epsilon$ is the Levi-Civita tensor. If the Levi-Civita tensor is defined in one set of coordinates, then its value in other sets of coordinates can be determined by the usual transformation law for a 4-tensor. It does turn out that if you define the Levi-Civita tensor with elements $pm1$ in one set of Minkowski coordinates, it also has that form after you boost to a different set of Minkowski coordinates. However, this is by no means an obvious property. In general, we have $epsilon_{ijkl}=sqrt{|operatorname{det}g|}$, where $g$ is the metric.



As an example suggested by PM2Ring in a comment, suppose we have a $1 text{m}^3$ box, and it exists for 1 s. Since we're working in SI units, the metric is $c^2dt^2-dx^2-...$,. The determinant of the metric is is $-c^2$, and the volume is $3times10^8 text{m}^4$.



There are several other answers that have been posted to the effect that this is somehow trivial, and all we have to do is multiply length x width x height x time. To see that this is not quite right, consider what happens when you try to define 1-volume that way. The 1-volume is simply the length, and we do not have a coordinate-independent way to define the length of a stick. If the stick is a rigid object sweeping out a 2-dimensional ribbon through spacetime, then you can define an instantaneous rest frame and a proper length. It is simply not true that you can naturally define such a thing for any one-dimensional segment. For example, the metric doesn't give us any nontrivial way to measure the length of a lightlike line segment.






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  • $begingroup$
    Can you give a simple numerical example? Eg, in a flat region of spacetime, does a 1m cube over a time interval of 1 second have a 4-volume of -c m^4?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @PM2Ring: In your example, to get units of m^4, you would have to be using a metric $c^2dt^2-dx^2-...$,. Then the determinant of the metric is is $-c^2$, and the answer is not 1 m^4, it's $3times10^8 text{m}^4$. That's actually a nice example. I've added it to the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    33 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    Thanks, Ben. I wrote -c m^4 as shorthand for -299792458 $m^4$. I wasn't sure how to handle the metric signature, although I admit I was uncomfortable with negative volume. ;)
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    26 mins ago






  • 1




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    Oh, I see what you meant. The volume is a signed quantity, but the sign is determined by the handedness of the basis vectors you use to span it, just as it would be if you treat area as a signed quantity in the Euclidean plane. The sign isn't determined by the signature of the metric.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    15 mins ago



















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$V=int_{V} dx_1dx_2dx_3dx_4$, isn't it?






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    I have no clue which is why I am asking I think you are be right
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










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    can you please give me an example like a 4 D cube like object is
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    – Luna
    1 hour ago










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    4-dimentional space is an abstraction, an extension of our 3D space. The volume of a 4D cube is $L^4$.
    $endgroup$
    – Vladimir Kalitvianski
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    that is very interesting thank you for helping me understand some more
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    This requires more justification, for the same reasons as James's answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago











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4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes








4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









0












$begingroup$

It is an abstraction and we don't think of it as "volume", but people in warehousing do this all the time: if you rent warehouse space, the amount to pay is some rate times unit volume times unit time, that is some "space-time (4D) volume". Of course time is not measured in the same units as space, so in terms of physics this 4D volume is in units of m³·s (or rather days for warehousing!)



The 4D volume calculation is classically done by multiplying the 3D volume of each item by the time it is stored in the warehouse and sum, but you could well imagine to integrate in another order.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    This answer is not really right, for the same reasons as the answers by James and two other people.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenCrowell Well, I understand that asking this question in a physics forum leads one to think of spacetime in relativity, however the OP does not specifically refer to it.
    $endgroup$
    – Joce
    1 hour ago












  • $begingroup$
    It's somewhat unclear, since the OP originally didn't put in any tags and Qmechanic added the relativity-related tags. But if she's not actually asking a relativity question, then this isn't even the appropriate site for the question.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    28 mins ago
















0












$begingroup$

It is an abstraction and we don't think of it as "volume", but people in warehousing do this all the time: if you rent warehouse space, the amount to pay is some rate times unit volume times unit time, that is some "space-time (4D) volume". Of course time is not measured in the same units as space, so in terms of physics this 4D volume is in units of m³·s (or rather days for warehousing!)



The 4D volume calculation is classically done by multiplying the 3D volume of each item by the time it is stored in the warehouse and sum, but you could well imagine to integrate in another order.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    This answer is not really right, for the same reasons as the answers by James and two other people.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenCrowell Well, I understand that asking this question in a physics forum leads one to think of spacetime in relativity, however the OP does not specifically refer to it.
    $endgroup$
    – Joce
    1 hour ago












  • $begingroup$
    It's somewhat unclear, since the OP originally didn't put in any tags and Qmechanic added the relativity-related tags. But if she's not actually asking a relativity question, then this isn't even the appropriate site for the question.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    28 mins ago














0












0








0





$begingroup$

It is an abstraction and we don't think of it as "volume", but people in warehousing do this all the time: if you rent warehouse space, the amount to pay is some rate times unit volume times unit time, that is some "space-time (4D) volume". Of course time is not measured in the same units as space, so in terms of physics this 4D volume is in units of m³·s (or rather days for warehousing!)



The 4D volume calculation is classically done by multiplying the 3D volume of each item by the time it is stored in the warehouse and sum, but you could well imagine to integrate in another order.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



It is an abstraction and we don't think of it as "volume", but people in warehousing do this all the time: if you rent warehouse space, the amount to pay is some rate times unit volume times unit time, that is some "space-time (4D) volume". Of course time is not measured in the same units as space, so in terms of physics this 4D volume is in units of m³·s (or rather days for warehousing!)



The 4D volume calculation is classically done by multiplying the 3D volume of each item by the time it is stored in the warehouse and sum, but you could well imagine to integrate in another order.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered 1 hour ago









JoceJoce

2,976621




2,976621












  • $begingroup$
    This answer is not really right, for the same reasons as the answers by James and two other people.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenCrowell Well, I understand that asking this question in a physics forum leads one to think of spacetime in relativity, however the OP does not specifically refer to it.
    $endgroup$
    – Joce
    1 hour ago












  • $begingroup$
    It's somewhat unclear, since the OP originally didn't put in any tags and Qmechanic added the relativity-related tags. But if she's not actually asking a relativity question, then this isn't even the appropriate site for the question.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    28 mins ago


















  • $begingroup$
    This answer is not really right, for the same reasons as the answers by James and two other people.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenCrowell Well, I understand that asking this question in a physics forum leads one to think of spacetime in relativity, however the OP does not specifically refer to it.
    $endgroup$
    – Joce
    1 hour ago












  • $begingroup$
    It's somewhat unclear, since the OP originally didn't put in any tags and Qmechanic added the relativity-related tags. But if she's not actually asking a relativity question, then this isn't even the appropriate site for the question.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    28 mins ago
















$begingroup$
This answer is not really right, for the same reasons as the answers by James and two other people.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
This answer is not really right, for the same reasons as the answers by James and two other people.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
@BenCrowell Well, I understand that asking this question in a physics forum leads one to think of spacetime in relativity, however the OP does not specifically refer to it.
$endgroup$
– Joce
1 hour ago






$begingroup$
@BenCrowell Well, I understand that asking this question in a physics forum leads one to think of spacetime in relativity, however the OP does not specifically refer to it.
$endgroup$
– Joce
1 hour ago














$begingroup$
It's somewhat unclear, since the OP originally didn't put in any tags and Qmechanic added the relativity-related tags. But if she's not actually asking a relativity question, then this isn't even the appropriate site for the question.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
28 mins ago




$begingroup$
It's somewhat unclear, since the OP originally didn't put in any tags and Qmechanic added the relativity-related tags. But if she's not actually asking a relativity question, then this isn't even the appropriate site for the question.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
28 mins ago











2












$begingroup$

Why could we not? It is not that hard to generlize the concept of the Riemann-Integral to $mathbb{R}^n$, and given a measurable subset, we can integrate the characterstic function which gives us the measure of our $n$-dimensional object.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    ok that makes sense would a black hole be an example of a 4D object?
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    no... we live in a 3d universe.
    $endgroup$
    – Hanting Zhang
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    acording to Einstein spacetime is 4D
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    space-time. Time is a dimension that is separate from the 3 space ones. It does not contribute to volume.
    $endgroup$
    – Hanting Zhang
    1 hour ago








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why a downvote?
    $endgroup$
    – James
    1 hour ago
















2












$begingroup$

Why could we not? It is not that hard to generlize the concept of the Riemann-Integral to $mathbb{R}^n$, and given a measurable subset, we can integrate the characterstic function which gives us the measure of our $n$-dimensional object.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    ok that makes sense would a black hole be an example of a 4D object?
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    no... we live in a 3d universe.
    $endgroup$
    – Hanting Zhang
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    acording to Einstein spacetime is 4D
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    space-time. Time is a dimension that is separate from the 3 space ones. It does not contribute to volume.
    $endgroup$
    – Hanting Zhang
    1 hour ago








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why a downvote?
    $endgroup$
    – James
    1 hour ago














2












2








2





$begingroup$

Why could we not? It is not that hard to generlize the concept of the Riemann-Integral to $mathbb{R}^n$, and given a measurable subset, we can integrate the characterstic function which gives us the measure of our $n$-dimensional object.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



Why could we not? It is not that hard to generlize the concept of the Riemann-Integral to $mathbb{R}^n$, and given a measurable subset, we can integrate the characterstic function which gives us the measure of our $n$-dimensional object.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered 2 hours ago









JamesJames

1376




1376












  • $begingroup$
    ok that makes sense would a black hole be an example of a 4D object?
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    no... we live in a 3d universe.
    $endgroup$
    – Hanting Zhang
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    acording to Einstein spacetime is 4D
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    space-time. Time is a dimension that is separate from the 3 space ones. It does not contribute to volume.
    $endgroup$
    – Hanting Zhang
    1 hour ago








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why a downvote?
    $endgroup$
    – James
    1 hour ago


















  • $begingroup$
    ok that makes sense would a black hole be an example of a 4D object?
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    no... we live in a 3d universe.
    $endgroup$
    – Hanting Zhang
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    acording to Einstein spacetime is 4D
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    space-time. Time is a dimension that is separate from the 3 space ones. It does not contribute to volume.
    $endgroup$
    – Hanting Zhang
    1 hour ago








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why a downvote?
    $endgroup$
    – James
    1 hour ago
















$begingroup$
ok that makes sense would a black hole be an example of a 4D object?
$endgroup$
– Luna
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
ok that makes sense would a black hole be an example of a 4D object?
$endgroup$
– Luna
2 hours ago












$begingroup$
no... we live in a 3d universe.
$endgroup$
– Hanting Zhang
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
no... we live in a 3d universe.
$endgroup$
– Hanting Zhang
2 hours ago












$begingroup$
acording to Einstein spacetime is 4D
$endgroup$
– Luna
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
acording to Einstein spacetime is 4D
$endgroup$
– Luna
2 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
space-time. Time is a dimension that is separate from the 3 space ones. It does not contribute to volume.
$endgroup$
– Hanting Zhang
1 hour ago






$begingroup$
space-time. Time is a dimension that is separate from the 3 space ones. It does not contribute to volume.
$endgroup$
– Hanting Zhang
1 hour ago






2




2




$begingroup$
Why a downvote?
$endgroup$
– James
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
Why a downvote?
$endgroup$
– James
1 hour ago











2












$begingroup$


I know there is 4 dimensional objects [...]




I don't know if I would say it this way. There are 4-dimensional regions of spacetime. For example, a book that exists over some amount of time will sweep out a 4-dimensional region of spacetime, but the book is not a 4-dimensional object.



In relativity we don't have a preferred set of coordinates, and therefore it's not trivial to define volume the way we ordinarily would. In a 4-dimensional spacetime, we can define 1-volume (length), 2-volume, 3-volume, and 4-volume. We would like such a definition to have the following properties:




  1. The definition is coordinate-independent (either implicitly or manifestly).


  2. Any two m-volumes can be compared in terms of their ratio.


  3. For any m nonzero vectors, the m-volume of the parallelepiped they span is nonzero if and only if the vectors are linearly independent.



It turns out that the only m-volume that allows a definition simultaneously satisfying all these properties is the 4-volume, which is the one you asked about. It is not self-evident that there is such a definition or what it should be. For a parallelepiped with edges given by vectors $a$, $b$, $c$, and $d$, the 4-volume is defined by



$V=epsilon_{ijkl}a^ib^jc^kd^l,$



where $epsilon$ is the Levi-Civita tensor. If the Levi-Civita tensor is defined in one set of coordinates, then its value in other sets of coordinates can be determined by the usual transformation law for a 4-tensor. It does turn out that if you define the Levi-Civita tensor with elements $pm1$ in one set of Minkowski coordinates, it also has that form after you boost to a different set of Minkowski coordinates. However, this is by no means an obvious property. In general, we have $epsilon_{ijkl}=sqrt{|operatorname{det}g|}$, where $g$ is the metric.



As an example suggested by PM2Ring in a comment, suppose we have a $1 text{m}^3$ box, and it exists for 1 s. Since we're working in SI units, the metric is $c^2dt^2-dx^2-...$,. The determinant of the metric is is $-c^2$, and the volume is $3times10^8 text{m}^4$.



There are several other answers that have been posted to the effect that this is somehow trivial, and all we have to do is multiply length x width x height x time. To see that this is not quite right, consider what happens when you try to define 1-volume that way. The 1-volume is simply the length, and we do not have a coordinate-independent way to define the length of a stick. If the stick is a rigid object sweeping out a 2-dimensional ribbon through spacetime, then you can define an instantaneous rest frame and a proper length. It is simply not true that you can naturally define such a thing for any one-dimensional segment. For example, the metric doesn't give us any nontrivial way to measure the length of a lightlike line segment.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Can you give a simple numerical example? Eg, in a flat region of spacetime, does a 1m cube over a time interval of 1 second have a 4-volume of -c m^4?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @PM2Ring: In your example, to get units of m^4, you would have to be using a metric $c^2dt^2-dx^2-...$,. Then the determinant of the metric is is $-c^2$, and the answer is not 1 m^4, it's $3times10^8 text{m}^4$. That's actually a nice example. I've added it to the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    33 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    Thanks, Ben. I wrote -c m^4 as shorthand for -299792458 $m^4$. I wasn't sure how to handle the metric signature, although I admit I was uncomfortable with negative volume. ;)
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    26 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Oh, I see what you meant. The volume is a signed quantity, but the sign is determined by the handedness of the basis vectors you use to span it, just as it would be if you treat area as a signed quantity in the Euclidean plane. The sign isn't determined by the signature of the metric.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    15 mins ago
















2












$begingroup$


I know there is 4 dimensional objects [...]




I don't know if I would say it this way. There are 4-dimensional regions of spacetime. For example, a book that exists over some amount of time will sweep out a 4-dimensional region of spacetime, but the book is not a 4-dimensional object.



In relativity we don't have a preferred set of coordinates, and therefore it's not trivial to define volume the way we ordinarily would. In a 4-dimensional spacetime, we can define 1-volume (length), 2-volume, 3-volume, and 4-volume. We would like such a definition to have the following properties:




  1. The definition is coordinate-independent (either implicitly or manifestly).


  2. Any two m-volumes can be compared in terms of their ratio.


  3. For any m nonzero vectors, the m-volume of the parallelepiped they span is nonzero if and only if the vectors are linearly independent.



It turns out that the only m-volume that allows a definition simultaneously satisfying all these properties is the 4-volume, which is the one you asked about. It is not self-evident that there is such a definition or what it should be. For a parallelepiped with edges given by vectors $a$, $b$, $c$, and $d$, the 4-volume is defined by



$V=epsilon_{ijkl}a^ib^jc^kd^l,$



where $epsilon$ is the Levi-Civita tensor. If the Levi-Civita tensor is defined in one set of coordinates, then its value in other sets of coordinates can be determined by the usual transformation law for a 4-tensor. It does turn out that if you define the Levi-Civita tensor with elements $pm1$ in one set of Minkowski coordinates, it also has that form after you boost to a different set of Minkowski coordinates. However, this is by no means an obvious property. In general, we have $epsilon_{ijkl}=sqrt{|operatorname{det}g|}$, where $g$ is the metric.



As an example suggested by PM2Ring in a comment, suppose we have a $1 text{m}^3$ box, and it exists for 1 s. Since we're working in SI units, the metric is $c^2dt^2-dx^2-...$,. The determinant of the metric is is $-c^2$, and the volume is $3times10^8 text{m}^4$.



There are several other answers that have been posted to the effect that this is somehow trivial, and all we have to do is multiply length x width x height x time. To see that this is not quite right, consider what happens when you try to define 1-volume that way. The 1-volume is simply the length, and we do not have a coordinate-independent way to define the length of a stick. If the stick is a rigid object sweeping out a 2-dimensional ribbon through spacetime, then you can define an instantaneous rest frame and a proper length. It is simply not true that you can naturally define such a thing for any one-dimensional segment. For example, the metric doesn't give us any nontrivial way to measure the length of a lightlike line segment.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Can you give a simple numerical example? Eg, in a flat region of spacetime, does a 1m cube over a time interval of 1 second have a 4-volume of -c m^4?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @PM2Ring: In your example, to get units of m^4, you would have to be using a metric $c^2dt^2-dx^2-...$,. Then the determinant of the metric is is $-c^2$, and the answer is not 1 m^4, it's $3times10^8 text{m}^4$. That's actually a nice example. I've added it to the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    33 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    Thanks, Ben. I wrote -c m^4 as shorthand for -299792458 $m^4$. I wasn't sure how to handle the metric signature, although I admit I was uncomfortable with negative volume. ;)
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    26 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Oh, I see what you meant. The volume is a signed quantity, but the sign is determined by the handedness of the basis vectors you use to span it, just as it would be if you treat area as a signed quantity in the Euclidean plane. The sign isn't determined by the signature of the metric.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    15 mins ago














2












2








2





$begingroup$


I know there is 4 dimensional objects [...]




I don't know if I would say it this way. There are 4-dimensional regions of spacetime. For example, a book that exists over some amount of time will sweep out a 4-dimensional region of spacetime, but the book is not a 4-dimensional object.



In relativity we don't have a preferred set of coordinates, and therefore it's not trivial to define volume the way we ordinarily would. In a 4-dimensional spacetime, we can define 1-volume (length), 2-volume, 3-volume, and 4-volume. We would like such a definition to have the following properties:




  1. The definition is coordinate-independent (either implicitly or manifestly).


  2. Any two m-volumes can be compared in terms of their ratio.


  3. For any m nonzero vectors, the m-volume of the parallelepiped they span is nonzero if and only if the vectors are linearly independent.



It turns out that the only m-volume that allows a definition simultaneously satisfying all these properties is the 4-volume, which is the one you asked about. It is not self-evident that there is such a definition or what it should be. For a parallelepiped with edges given by vectors $a$, $b$, $c$, and $d$, the 4-volume is defined by



$V=epsilon_{ijkl}a^ib^jc^kd^l,$



where $epsilon$ is the Levi-Civita tensor. If the Levi-Civita tensor is defined in one set of coordinates, then its value in other sets of coordinates can be determined by the usual transformation law for a 4-tensor. It does turn out that if you define the Levi-Civita tensor with elements $pm1$ in one set of Minkowski coordinates, it also has that form after you boost to a different set of Minkowski coordinates. However, this is by no means an obvious property. In general, we have $epsilon_{ijkl}=sqrt{|operatorname{det}g|}$, where $g$ is the metric.



As an example suggested by PM2Ring in a comment, suppose we have a $1 text{m}^3$ box, and it exists for 1 s. Since we're working in SI units, the metric is $c^2dt^2-dx^2-...$,. The determinant of the metric is is $-c^2$, and the volume is $3times10^8 text{m}^4$.



There are several other answers that have been posted to the effect that this is somehow trivial, and all we have to do is multiply length x width x height x time. To see that this is not quite right, consider what happens when you try to define 1-volume that way. The 1-volume is simply the length, and we do not have a coordinate-independent way to define the length of a stick. If the stick is a rigid object sweeping out a 2-dimensional ribbon through spacetime, then you can define an instantaneous rest frame and a proper length. It is simply not true that you can naturally define such a thing for any one-dimensional segment. For example, the metric doesn't give us any nontrivial way to measure the length of a lightlike line segment.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$




I know there is 4 dimensional objects [...]




I don't know if I would say it this way. There are 4-dimensional regions of spacetime. For example, a book that exists over some amount of time will sweep out a 4-dimensional region of spacetime, but the book is not a 4-dimensional object.



In relativity we don't have a preferred set of coordinates, and therefore it's not trivial to define volume the way we ordinarily would. In a 4-dimensional spacetime, we can define 1-volume (length), 2-volume, 3-volume, and 4-volume. We would like such a definition to have the following properties:




  1. The definition is coordinate-independent (either implicitly or manifestly).


  2. Any two m-volumes can be compared in terms of their ratio.


  3. For any m nonzero vectors, the m-volume of the parallelepiped they span is nonzero if and only if the vectors are linearly independent.



It turns out that the only m-volume that allows a definition simultaneously satisfying all these properties is the 4-volume, which is the one you asked about. It is not self-evident that there is such a definition or what it should be. For a parallelepiped with edges given by vectors $a$, $b$, $c$, and $d$, the 4-volume is defined by



$V=epsilon_{ijkl}a^ib^jc^kd^l,$



where $epsilon$ is the Levi-Civita tensor. If the Levi-Civita tensor is defined in one set of coordinates, then its value in other sets of coordinates can be determined by the usual transformation law for a 4-tensor. It does turn out that if you define the Levi-Civita tensor with elements $pm1$ in one set of Minkowski coordinates, it also has that form after you boost to a different set of Minkowski coordinates. However, this is by no means an obvious property. In general, we have $epsilon_{ijkl}=sqrt{|operatorname{det}g|}$, where $g$ is the metric.



As an example suggested by PM2Ring in a comment, suppose we have a $1 text{m}^3$ box, and it exists for 1 s. Since we're working in SI units, the metric is $c^2dt^2-dx^2-...$,. The determinant of the metric is is $-c^2$, and the volume is $3times10^8 text{m}^4$.



There are several other answers that have been posted to the effect that this is somehow trivial, and all we have to do is multiply length x width x height x time. To see that this is not quite right, consider what happens when you try to define 1-volume that way. The 1-volume is simply the length, and we do not have a coordinate-independent way to define the length of a stick. If the stick is a rigid object sweeping out a 2-dimensional ribbon through spacetime, then you can define an instantaneous rest frame and a proper length. It is simply not true that you can naturally define such a thing for any one-dimensional segment. For example, the metric doesn't give us any nontrivial way to measure the length of a lightlike line segment.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited 13 mins ago

























answered 1 hour ago









Ben CrowellBen Crowell

49.8k5155295




49.8k5155295












  • $begingroup$
    Can you give a simple numerical example? Eg, in a flat region of spacetime, does a 1m cube over a time interval of 1 second have a 4-volume of -c m^4?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @PM2Ring: In your example, to get units of m^4, you would have to be using a metric $c^2dt^2-dx^2-...$,. Then the determinant of the metric is is $-c^2$, and the answer is not 1 m^4, it's $3times10^8 text{m}^4$. That's actually a nice example. I've added it to the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    33 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    Thanks, Ben. I wrote -c m^4 as shorthand for -299792458 $m^4$. I wasn't sure how to handle the metric signature, although I admit I was uncomfortable with negative volume. ;)
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    26 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Oh, I see what you meant. The volume is a signed quantity, but the sign is determined by the handedness of the basis vectors you use to span it, just as it would be if you treat area as a signed quantity in the Euclidean plane. The sign isn't determined by the signature of the metric.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    15 mins ago


















  • $begingroup$
    Can you give a simple numerical example? Eg, in a flat region of spacetime, does a 1m cube over a time interval of 1 second have a 4-volume of -c m^4?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @PM2Ring: In your example, to get units of m^4, you would have to be using a metric $c^2dt^2-dx^2-...$,. Then the determinant of the metric is is $-c^2$, and the answer is not 1 m^4, it's $3times10^8 text{m}^4$. That's actually a nice example. I've added it to the answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    33 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    Thanks, Ben. I wrote -c m^4 as shorthand for -299792458 $m^4$. I wasn't sure how to handle the metric signature, although I admit I was uncomfortable with negative volume. ;)
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    26 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Oh, I see what you meant. The volume is a signed quantity, but the sign is determined by the handedness of the basis vectors you use to span it, just as it would be if you treat area as a signed quantity in the Euclidean plane. The sign isn't determined by the signature of the metric.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    15 mins ago
















$begingroup$
Can you give a simple numerical example? Eg, in a flat region of spacetime, does a 1m cube over a time interval of 1 second have a 4-volume of -c m^4?
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
Can you give a simple numerical example? Eg, in a flat region of spacetime, does a 1m cube over a time interval of 1 second have a 4-volume of -c m^4?
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
@PM2Ring: In your example, to get units of m^4, you would have to be using a metric $c^2dt^2-dx^2-...$,. Then the determinant of the metric is is $-c^2$, and the answer is not 1 m^4, it's $3times10^8 text{m}^4$. That's actually a nice example. I've added it to the answer.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
33 mins ago






$begingroup$
@PM2Ring: In your example, to get units of m^4, you would have to be using a metric $c^2dt^2-dx^2-...$,. Then the determinant of the metric is is $-c^2$, and the answer is not 1 m^4, it's $3times10^8 text{m}^4$. That's actually a nice example. I've added it to the answer.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
33 mins ago














$begingroup$
Thanks, Ben. I wrote -c m^4 as shorthand for -299792458 $m^4$. I wasn't sure how to handle the metric signature, although I admit I was uncomfortable with negative volume. ;)
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
26 mins ago




$begingroup$
Thanks, Ben. I wrote -c m^4 as shorthand for -299792458 $m^4$. I wasn't sure how to handle the metric signature, although I admit I was uncomfortable with negative volume. ;)
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
26 mins ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Oh, I see what you meant. The volume is a signed quantity, but the sign is determined by the handedness of the basis vectors you use to span it, just as it would be if you treat area as a signed quantity in the Euclidean plane. The sign isn't determined by the signature of the metric.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
15 mins ago




$begingroup$
Oh, I see what you meant. The volume is a signed quantity, but the sign is determined by the handedness of the basis vectors you use to span it, just as it would be if you treat area as a signed quantity in the Euclidean plane. The sign isn't determined by the signature of the metric.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
15 mins ago











0












$begingroup$

$V=int_{V} dx_1dx_2dx_3dx_4$, isn't it?






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I have no clue which is why I am asking I think you are be right
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    can you please give me an example like a 4 D cube like object is
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    4-dimentional space is an abstraction, an extension of our 3D space. The volume of a 4D cube is $L^4$.
    $endgroup$
    – Vladimir Kalitvianski
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    that is very interesting thank you for helping me understand some more
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    This requires more justification, for the same reasons as James's answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago
















0












$begingroup$

$V=int_{V} dx_1dx_2dx_3dx_4$, isn't it?






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I have no clue which is why I am asking I think you are be right
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    can you please give me an example like a 4 D cube like object is
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    4-dimentional space is an abstraction, an extension of our 3D space. The volume of a 4D cube is $L^4$.
    $endgroup$
    – Vladimir Kalitvianski
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    that is very interesting thank you for helping me understand some more
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    This requires more justification, for the same reasons as James's answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago














0












0








0





$begingroup$

$V=int_{V} dx_1dx_2dx_3dx_4$, isn't it?






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



$V=int_{V} dx_1dx_2dx_3dx_4$, isn't it?







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered 2 hours ago









Vladimir KalitvianskiVladimir Kalitvianski

10.8k11334




10.8k11334












  • $begingroup$
    I have no clue which is why I am asking I think you are be right
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    can you please give me an example like a 4 D cube like object is
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    4-dimentional space is an abstraction, an extension of our 3D space. The volume of a 4D cube is $L^4$.
    $endgroup$
    – Vladimir Kalitvianski
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    that is very interesting thank you for helping me understand some more
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    This requires more justification, for the same reasons as James's answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago


















  • $begingroup$
    I have no clue which is why I am asking I think you are be right
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    can you please give me an example like a 4 D cube like object is
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    4-dimentional space is an abstraction, an extension of our 3D space. The volume of a 4D cube is $L^4$.
    $endgroup$
    – Vladimir Kalitvianski
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    that is very interesting thank you for helping me understand some more
    $endgroup$
    – Luna
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    This requires more justification, for the same reasons as James's answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    1 hour ago
















$begingroup$
I have no clue which is why I am asking I think you are be right
$endgroup$
– Luna
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
I have no clue which is why I am asking I think you are be right
$endgroup$
– Luna
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
can you please give me an example like a 4 D cube like object is
$endgroup$
– Luna
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
can you please give me an example like a 4 D cube like object is
$endgroup$
– Luna
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
4-dimentional space is an abstraction, an extension of our 3D space. The volume of a 4D cube is $L^4$.
$endgroup$
– Vladimir Kalitvianski
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
4-dimentional space is an abstraction, an extension of our 3D space. The volume of a 4D cube is $L^4$.
$endgroup$
– Vladimir Kalitvianski
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
that is very interesting thank you for helping me understand some more
$endgroup$
– Luna
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
that is very interesting thank you for helping me understand some more
$endgroup$
– Luna
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
This requires more justification, for the same reasons as James's answer.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
This requires more justification, for the same reasons as James's answer.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
1 hour ago


















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