Difference between “generating set” and free product?
$begingroup$
Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?
group-theory free-groups free-product
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$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?
group-theory free-groups free-product
New contributor
user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?
group-theory free-groups free-product
New contributor
user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?
group-theory free-groups free-product
group-theory free-groups free-product
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user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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asked 2 hours ago
user47370user47370
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1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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active
oldest
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3 Answers
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active
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$begingroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
$endgroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
answered 1 hour ago
Alex OrtizAlex Ortiz
11.5k21442
11.5k21442
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
$endgroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
answered 1 hour ago
giannispapavgiannispapav
2,000325
2,000325
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
$endgroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 1 hour ago
jgonjgon
16.5k32143
16.5k32143
add a comment |
add a comment |
user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago