What Happens when Passenger Refuses to Fly Boeing 737 Max?












29















As most are unfortunately aware the Boeing 737 Max 8 is receiving very bad press after two fatal plane crashes in five months.



China suspends commercial operations of Boeing 737-8 planes



At the time of writing this, not all the 737 Max’s have been grounded. Indeed until only a couple of hours ago Ethiopian Airlines insisted they would continue to fly the aircraft. They have since revised their position.



What recourse will a passenger who is scheduled to fly commercial on that model of plane have if they refuse to board because of safety concerns? Do airlines handle such issues under airline specific ticket contract or there exists some general global aviation rules cover such well founded fears of catastrophe?




well found·ed adjective (especially of a suspicion or belief) based on
good evidence or reasons.




TL;DR



Methinks a well run airline like Ethiopian Airlines and major country like China both deciding to ground the aircraft based on two catastrophic events in a short period of time fits the textbook definition of well founded. Catastrophic plane crashes are not a dime a dozen.










share|improve this question














Post is related to a rapidly changing event.















  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Willeke
    10 hours ago






  • 1





    Now that the comments have been moved to chat, could we remove also the parts of the discussion on "well-founded" that have (incorrectly, in my view) been added to the question rather than in a comment? Maybe you could turn them into a remark "I believe that such fears are well founded because..." instead? Without the corresponding comments, they just look out of place.

    – Federico Poloni
    7 hours ago








  • 2





    Regarding "well-founded", I would like to mention that at the time I'm writing this, there are 127 Boeing 737 MAX in the air.

    – Martin Argerami
    7 hours ago











  • @MartinArgerami How does that detract from the assertion? When viewed against the average crash rate of commercial aircraft which is minuscule, 127 flights without a catastrophe is nothing at all. On the other hand two catastrophic crashes of a particular model in five months is very statistically significant. As with everything benchmarking and Perspective is very important.

    – ThE iLlEgAl aLiEn
    6 hours ago













  • "Very statistically significant", you would have to explain that a bit better. These planes do mid-range flights, so let me take a cautious approach and say they do two flights a day (very cautious, because with many planes grounded, there should have been more planes in flight). That's 254 per day. Delivery started in May 2017, so let me take a later day, for instance May 2018. That would give us 314 days; times 257 gives 80,698 flights. How exactly is 2 out of 80,698, "very statistically significant"?

    – Martin Argerami
    6 hours ago


















29















As most are unfortunately aware the Boeing 737 Max 8 is receiving very bad press after two fatal plane crashes in five months.



China suspends commercial operations of Boeing 737-8 planes



At the time of writing this, not all the 737 Max’s have been grounded. Indeed until only a couple of hours ago Ethiopian Airlines insisted they would continue to fly the aircraft. They have since revised their position.



What recourse will a passenger who is scheduled to fly commercial on that model of plane have if they refuse to board because of safety concerns? Do airlines handle such issues under airline specific ticket contract or there exists some general global aviation rules cover such well founded fears of catastrophe?




well found·ed adjective (especially of a suspicion or belief) based on
good evidence or reasons.




TL;DR



Methinks a well run airline like Ethiopian Airlines and major country like China both deciding to ground the aircraft based on two catastrophic events in a short period of time fits the textbook definition of well founded. Catastrophic plane crashes are not a dime a dozen.










share|improve this question














Post is related to a rapidly changing event.















  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Willeke
    10 hours ago






  • 1





    Now that the comments have been moved to chat, could we remove also the parts of the discussion on "well-founded" that have (incorrectly, in my view) been added to the question rather than in a comment? Maybe you could turn them into a remark "I believe that such fears are well founded because..." instead? Without the corresponding comments, they just look out of place.

    – Federico Poloni
    7 hours ago








  • 2





    Regarding "well-founded", I would like to mention that at the time I'm writing this, there are 127 Boeing 737 MAX in the air.

    – Martin Argerami
    7 hours ago











  • @MartinArgerami How does that detract from the assertion? When viewed against the average crash rate of commercial aircraft which is minuscule, 127 flights without a catastrophe is nothing at all. On the other hand two catastrophic crashes of a particular model in five months is very statistically significant. As with everything benchmarking and Perspective is very important.

    – ThE iLlEgAl aLiEn
    6 hours ago













  • "Very statistically significant", you would have to explain that a bit better. These planes do mid-range flights, so let me take a cautious approach and say they do two flights a day (very cautious, because with many planes grounded, there should have been more planes in flight). That's 254 per day. Delivery started in May 2017, so let me take a later day, for instance May 2018. That would give us 314 days; times 257 gives 80,698 flights. How exactly is 2 out of 80,698, "very statistically significant"?

    – Martin Argerami
    6 hours ago
















29












29








29


1






As most are unfortunately aware the Boeing 737 Max 8 is receiving very bad press after two fatal plane crashes in five months.



China suspends commercial operations of Boeing 737-8 planes



At the time of writing this, not all the 737 Max’s have been grounded. Indeed until only a couple of hours ago Ethiopian Airlines insisted they would continue to fly the aircraft. They have since revised their position.



What recourse will a passenger who is scheduled to fly commercial on that model of plane have if they refuse to board because of safety concerns? Do airlines handle such issues under airline specific ticket contract or there exists some general global aviation rules cover such well founded fears of catastrophe?




well found·ed adjective (especially of a suspicion or belief) based on
good evidence or reasons.




TL;DR



Methinks a well run airline like Ethiopian Airlines and major country like China both deciding to ground the aircraft based on two catastrophic events in a short period of time fits the textbook definition of well founded. Catastrophic plane crashes are not a dime a dozen.










share|improve this question
















As most are unfortunately aware the Boeing 737 Max 8 is receiving very bad press after two fatal plane crashes in five months.



China suspends commercial operations of Boeing 737-8 planes



At the time of writing this, not all the 737 Max’s have been grounded. Indeed until only a couple of hours ago Ethiopian Airlines insisted they would continue to fly the aircraft. They have since revised their position.



What recourse will a passenger who is scheduled to fly commercial on that model of plane have if they refuse to board because of safety concerns? Do airlines handle such issues under airline specific ticket contract or there exists some general global aviation rules cover such well founded fears of catastrophe?




well found·ed adjective (especially of a suspicion or belief) based on
good evidence or reasons.




TL;DR



Methinks a well run airline like Ethiopian Airlines and major country like China both deciding to ground the aircraft based on two catastrophic events in a short period of time fits the textbook definition of well founded. Catastrophic plane crashes are not a dime a dozen.







tickets safety aircraft






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 13 hours ago







ThE iLlEgAl aLiEn

















asked 19 hours ago









ThE iLlEgAl aLiEnThE iLlEgAl aLiEn

24.9k370127




24.9k370127



Post is related to a rapidly changing event.




Post is related to a rapidly changing event.














  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Willeke
    10 hours ago






  • 1





    Now that the comments have been moved to chat, could we remove also the parts of the discussion on "well-founded" that have (incorrectly, in my view) been added to the question rather than in a comment? Maybe you could turn them into a remark "I believe that such fears are well founded because..." instead? Without the corresponding comments, they just look out of place.

    – Federico Poloni
    7 hours ago








  • 2





    Regarding "well-founded", I would like to mention that at the time I'm writing this, there are 127 Boeing 737 MAX in the air.

    – Martin Argerami
    7 hours ago











  • @MartinArgerami How does that detract from the assertion? When viewed against the average crash rate of commercial aircraft which is minuscule, 127 flights without a catastrophe is nothing at all. On the other hand two catastrophic crashes of a particular model in five months is very statistically significant. As with everything benchmarking and Perspective is very important.

    – ThE iLlEgAl aLiEn
    6 hours ago













  • "Very statistically significant", you would have to explain that a bit better. These planes do mid-range flights, so let me take a cautious approach and say they do two flights a day (very cautious, because with many planes grounded, there should have been more planes in flight). That's 254 per day. Delivery started in May 2017, so let me take a later day, for instance May 2018. That would give us 314 days; times 257 gives 80,698 flights. How exactly is 2 out of 80,698, "very statistically significant"?

    – Martin Argerami
    6 hours ago





















  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Willeke
    10 hours ago






  • 1





    Now that the comments have been moved to chat, could we remove also the parts of the discussion on "well-founded" that have (incorrectly, in my view) been added to the question rather than in a comment? Maybe you could turn them into a remark "I believe that such fears are well founded because..." instead? Without the corresponding comments, they just look out of place.

    – Federico Poloni
    7 hours ago








  • 2





    Regarding "well-founded", I would like to mention that at the time I'm writing this, there are 127 Boeing 737 MAX in the air.

    – Martin Argerami
    7 hours ago











  • @MartinArgerami How does that detract from the assertion? When viewed against the average crash rate of commercial aircraft which is minuscule, 127 flights without a catastrophe is nothing at all. On the other hand two catastrophic crashes of a particular model in five months is very statistically significant. As with everything benchmarking and Perspective is very important.

    – ThE iLlEgAl aLiEn
    6 hours ago













  • "Very statistically significant", you would have to explain that a bit better. These planes do mid-range flights, so let me take a cautious approach and say they do two flights a day (very cautious, because with many planes grounded, there should have been more planes in flight). That's 254 per day. Delivery started in May 2017, so let me take a later day, for instance May 2018. That would give us 314 days; times 257 gives 80,698 flights. How exactly is 2 out of 80,698, "very statistically significant"?

    – Martin Argerami
    6 hours ago



















Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

– Willeke
10 hours ago





Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

– Willeke
10 hours ago




1




1





Now that the comments have been moved to chat, could we remove also the parts of the discussion on "well-founded" that have (incorrectly, in my view) been added to the question rather than in a comment? Maybe you could turn them into a remark "I believe that such fears are well founded because..." instead? Without the corresponding comments, they just look out of place.

– Federico Poloni
7 hours ago







Now that the comments have been moved to chat, could we remove also the parts of the discussion on "well-founded" that have (incorrectly, in my view) been added to the question rather than in a comment? Maybe you could turn them into a remark "I believe that such fears are well founded because..." instead? Without the corresponding comments, they just look out of place.

– Federico Poloni
7 hours ago






2




2





Regarding "well-founded", I would like to mention that at the time I'm writing this, there are 127 Boeing 737 MAX in the air.

– Martin Argerami
7 hours ago





Regarding "well-founded", I would like to mention that at the time I'm writing this, there are 127 Boeing 737 MAX in the air.

– Martin Argerami
7 hours ago













@MartinArgerami How does that detract from the assertion? When viewed against the average crash rate of commercial aircraft which is minuscule, 127 flights without a catastrophe is nothing at all. On the other hand two catastrophic crashes of a particular model in five months is very statistically significant. As with everything benchmarking and Perspective is very important.

– ThE iLlEgAl aLiEn
6 hours ago







@MartinArgerami How does that detract from the assertion? When viewed against the average crash rate of commercial aircraft which is minuscule, 127 flights without a catastrophe is nothing at all. On the other hand two catastrophic crashes of a particular model in five months is very statistically significant. As with everything benchmarking and Perspective is very important.

– ThE iLlEgAl aLiEn
6 hours ago















"Very statistically significant", you would have to explain that a bit better. These planes do mid-range flights, so let me take a cautious approach and say they do two flights a day (very cautious, because with many planes grounded, there should have been more planes in flight). That's 254 per day. Delivery started in May 2017, so let me take a later day, for instance May 2018. That would give us 314 days; times 257 gives 80,698 flights. How exactly is 2 out of 80,698, "very statistically significant"?

– Martin Argerami
6 hours ago







"Very statistically significant", you would have to explain that a bit better. These planes do mid-range flights, so let me take a cautious approach and say they do two flights a day (very cautious, because with many planes grounded, there should have been more planes in flight). That's 254 per day. Delivery started in May 2017, so let me take a later day, for instance May 2018. That would give us 314 days; times 257 gives 80,698 flights. How exactly is 2 out of 80,698, "very statistically significant"?

– Martin Argerami
6 hours ago












5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















62















What recourse will a passenger who is scheduled to fly commercial on that model of plane have if they refuse to board because of safety concerns?




None. The airline and the relevant regulators are the competent authorities to determine what types of planes are safe to fly, not the passengers.



Of course, in many cases, airlines will do things they're not obliged to do, because it's good PR. However, I would expect that the collateral "Airline admits passenger who refused to fly on one of their planes might have a valid point" would be worse than the PR of "Airline won't help passenger who refused to fly on the plane that was provided."






share|improve this answer





















  • 22





    The airline and regulators are the competent authorities to determine whether a type of plane is safe to fly, but the person who decides whether a particular plane is safe to fly is the pilot in command, and he/she has absolute authority to refuse to fly it for any reason whatever. If the PIC is happy to risk his/her own life flying the plane, it's unlikely that the passengers have any better information to make a rational judgement.

    – alephzero
    13 hours ago













  • @alephzero Good point -- I've edited to insert "type of".

    – David Richerby
    13 hours ago






  • 12





    @alephzero but the pilot has survival bias, pressure from his contract. I agree that most passengers have no better judgment than the pilot, but that the pilot is willing to risk his live, is not much of a guarantee. See also the example of the flight with the Football player Sala.

    – Hjan
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    The airlines (and Boeing) also have monetary incentive to not fly unsafe planes. Even if there's no firm evidence that the planes are not safe today, if, say, a Southwest 737 Max has an accident tomorrow and it has the same root cause as the Ethiopian Airlines crash, they will likely face much higher payouts after the inevitable lawsuits when lawyers plant the seeds of doubt about whether or not the airline should have grounded the planes. If the airlines had any reason to doubt that the aircraft were not safe, they would not fly them.

    – Johnny
    4 hours ago











  • Playing devil's advocate, what would happen when a passenger who gets onboard of an airplane notices something that seems far out of place, like exposed wiring, a cracked window, visibly intoxicated pilot… you get the point, and then requests not to fly on this airplane, ssuming that the staff onboard is claiming airworthiness?

    – sleblanc
    1 hour ago





















29














If a regulator has ordered that aircraft grounded and an airline continues to fly it, contact the regulator. Beyond that, you would have a hard time arguing that the fears were "well founded". They may not be baseless, but still not "well founded".



At that point, it would be a passenger voluntarily refusing to board. No recourse.






share|improve this answer































    7














    Simple, No recourse. You may always politely ask for rescheduling to different equipment. "It doesn't cost anything to be nice" -- Bear Bryant






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    pearlvfr is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.




























      1














      NPR.org reports that:




      The Federal Aviation Administration says it plans to require a series
      of design changes to the Boeing 737 MAX fleet after a pair of fatal
      plane crashes including one yesterday in Ethiopia that killed all 157
      people on board.




      Boeing confirms it's in the process of enhancing the flight control software for the plane, including the MCAS software.



      CBC.ca reported that:




      The Air Canada Pilots Association, the union for Air Canada and Air
      Canada Rouge pilots, sent out a statement urging Transport Canada "to
      take proactive action to ensure the safety of the Canadian travelling
      public."




      Not exactly clear what they meant by that but the Transport Minister (of Canada) would consider it "premature" to ground the 41 planes of that model owned by Canadian airline companies according to CBC.





      I'm afraid that doesn't provide further options for the consumer. So I guess all that's left is for people who think the precautionary principle requires them to not fly in such planes would be to cancel their bookings, try to get a refund from the seller and purchase new tickets trying to ascertain what plane they'll be flying on. If as some people have stated it's possible to guarantee that you'll fly in the plane described when booking, then you may choose a direct flight with an airline which doesn't operate the said plane...






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      user93442 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.




























        -1














        Since it is easy to determine what aircraft model is on a particular flight, when you buy the ticket, you are effectively approving that model. So you have no grounds for refusing it and even les grounds for making any demands.






        share|improve this answer



















        • 1





          It's actually virtually impossible to guarantee what aircraft model you'll end up flying on. Some booking sites will tell you what's scheduled, but those can change at no notice.

          – jpatokal
          3 hours ago






        • 1





          Also if you booked more than two days ago you would not have known what you know now.

          – DJClayworth
          2 hours ago











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        5 Answers
        5






        active

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        5 Answers
        5






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        62















        What recourse will a passenger who is scheduled to fly commercial on that model of plane have if they refuse to board because of safety concerns?




        None. The airline and the relevant regulators are the competent authorities to determine what types of planes are safe to fly, not the passengers.



        Of course, in many cases, airlines will do things they're not obliged to do, because it's good PR. However, I would expect that the collateral "Airline admits passenger who refused to fly on one of their planes might have a valid point" would be worse than the PR of "Airline won't help passenger who refused to fly on the plane that was provided."






        share|improve this answer





















        • 22





          The airline and regulators are the competent authorities to determine whether a type of plane is safe to fly, but the person who decides whether a particular plane is safe to fly is the pilot in command, and he/she has absolute authority to refuse to fly it for any reason whatever. If the PIC is happy to risk his/her own life flying the plane, it's unlikely that the passengers have any better information to make a rational judgement.

          – alephzero
          13 hours ago













        • @alephzero Good point -- I've edited to insert "type of".

          – David Richerby
          13 hours ago






        • 12





          @alephzero but the pilot has survival bias, pressure from his contract. I agree that most passengers have no better judgment than the pilot, but that the pilot is willing to risk his live, is not much of a guarantee. See also the example of the flight with the Football player Sala.

          – Hjan
          12 hours ago






        • 1





          The airlines (and Boeing) also have monetary incentive to not fly unsafe planes. Even if there's no firm evidence that the planes are not safe today, if, say, a Southwest 737 Max has an accident tomorrow and it has the same root cause as the Ethiopian Airlines crash, they will likely face much higher payouts after the inevitable lawsuits when lawyers plant the seeds of doubt about whether or not the airline should have grounded the planes. If the airlines had any reason to doubt that the aircraft were not safe, they would not fly them.

          – Johnny
          4 hours ago











        • Playing devil's advocate, what would happen when a passenger who gets onboard of an airplane notices something that seems far out of place, like exposed wiring, a cracked window, visibly intoxicated pilot… you get the point, and then requests not to fly on this airplane, ssuming that the staff onboard is claiming airworthiness?

          – sleblanc
          1 hour ago


















        62















        What recourse will a passenger who is scheduled to fly commercial on that model of plane have if they refuse to board because of safety concerns?




        None. The airline and the relevant regulators are the competent authorities to determine what types of planes are safe to fly, not the passengers.



        Of course, in many cases, airlines will do things they're not obliged to do, because it's good PR. However, I would expect that the collateral "Airline admits passenger who refused to fly on one of their planes might have a valid point" would be worse than the PR of "Airline won't help passenger who refused to fly on the plane that was provided."






        share|improve this answer





















        • 22





          The airline and regulators are the competent authorities to determine whether a type of plane is safe to fly, but the person who decides whether a particular plane is safe to fly is the pilot in command, and he/she has absolute authority to refuse to fly it for any reason whatever. If the PIC is happy to risk his/her own life flying the plane, it's unlikely that the passengers have any better information to make a rational judgement.

          – alephzero
          13 hours ago













        • @alephzero Good point -- I've edited to insert "type of".

          – David Richerby
          13 hours ago






        • 12





          @alephzero but the pilot has survival bias, pressure from his contract. I agree that most passengers have no better judgment than the pilot, but that the pilot is willing to risk his live, is not much of a guarantee. See also the example of the flight with the Football player Sala.

          – Hjan
          12 hours ago






        • 1





          The airlines (and Boeing) also have monetary incentive to not fly unsafe planes. Even if there's no firm evidence that the planes are not safe today, if, say, a Southwest 737 Max has an accident tomorrow and it has the same root cause as the Ethiopian Airlines crash, they will likely face much higher payouts after the inevitable lawsuits when lawyers plant the seeds of doubt about whether or not the airline should have grounded the planes. If the airlines had any reason to doubt that the aircraft were not safe, they would not fly them.

          – Johnny
          4 hours ago











        • Playing devil's advocate, what would happen when a passenger who gets onboard of an airplane notices something that seems far out of place, like exposed wiring, a cracked window, visibly intoxicated pilot… you get the point, and then requests not to fly on this airplane, ssuming that the staff onboard is claiming airworthiness?

          – sleblanc
          1 hour ago
















        62












        62








        62








        What recourse will a passenger who is scheduled to fly commercial on that model of plane have if they refuse to board because of safety concerns?




        None. The airline and the relevant regulators are the competent authorities to determine what types of planes are safe to fly, not the passengers.



        Of course, in many cases, airlines will do things they're not obliged to do, because it's good PR. However, I would expect that the collateral "Airline admits passenger who refused to fly on one of their planes might have a valid point" would be worse than the PR of "Airline won't help passenger who refused to fly on the plane that was provided."






        share|improve this answer
















        What recourse will a passenger who is scheduled to fly commercial on that model of plane have if they refuse to board because of safety concerns?




        None. The airline and the relevant regulators are the competent authorities to determine what types of planes are safe to fly, not the passengers.



        Of course, in many cases, airlines will do things they're not obliged to do, because it's good PR. However, I would expect that the collateral "Airline admits passenger who refused to fly on one of their planes might have a valid point" would be worse than the PR of "Airline won't help passenger who refused to fly on the plane that was provided."







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 13 hours ago

























        answered 14 hours ago









        David RicherbyDavid Richerby

        13.4k84587




        13.4k84587








        • 22





          The airline and regulators are the competent authorities to determine whether a type of plane is safe to fly, but the person who decides whether a particular plane is safe to fly is the pilot in command, and he/she has absolute authority to refuse to fly it for any reason whatever. If the PIC is happy to risk his/her own life flying the plane, it's unlikely that the passengers have any better information to make a rational judgement.

          – alephzero
          13 hours ago













        • @alephzero Good point -- I've edited to insert "type of".

          – David Richerby
          13 hours ago






        • 12





          @alephzero but the pilot has survival bias, pressure from his contract. I agree that most passengers have no better judgment than the pilot, but that the pilot is willing to risk his live, is not much of a guarantee. See also the example of the flight with the Football player Sala.

          – Hjan
          12 hours ago






        • 1





          The airlines (and Boeing) also have monetary incentive to not fly unsafe planes. Even if there's no firm evidence that the planes are not safe today, if, say, a Southwest 737 Max has an accident tomorrow and it has the same root cause as the Ethiopian Airlines crash, they will likely face much higher payouts after the inevitable lawsuits when lawyers plant the seeds of doubt about whether or not the airline should have grounded the planes. If the airlines had any reason to doubt that the aircraft were not safe, they would not fly them.

          – Johnny
          4 hours ago











        • Playing devil's advocate, what would happen when a passenger who gets onboard of an airplane notices something that seems far out of place, like exposed wiring, a cracked window, visibly intoxicated pilot… you get the point, and then requests not to fly on this airplane, ssuming that the staff onboard is claiming airworthiness?

          – sleblanc
          1 hour ago
















        • 22





          The airline and regulators are the competent authorities to determine whether a type of plane is safe to fly, but the person who decides whether a particular plane is safe to fly is the pilot in command, and he/she has absolute authority to refuse to fly it for any reason whatever. If the PIC is happy to risk his/her own life flying the plane, it's unlikely that the passengers have any better information to make a rational judgement.

          – alephzero
          13 hours ago













        • @alephzero Good point -- I've edited to insert "type of".

          – David Richerby
          13 hours ago






        • 12





          @alephzero but the pilot has survival bias, pressure from his contract. I agree that most passengers have no better judgment than the pilot, but that the pilot is willing to risk his live, is not much of a guarantee. See also the example of the flight with the Football player Sala.

          – Hjan
          12 hours ago






        • 1





          The airlines (and Boeing) also have monetary incentive to not fly unsafe planes. Even if there's no firm evidence that the planes are not safe today, if, say, a Southwest 737 Max has an accident tomorrow and it has the same root cause as the Ethiopian Airlines crash, they will likely face much higher payouts after the inevitable lawsuits when lawyers plant the seeds of doubt about whether or not the airline should have grounded the planes. If the airlines had any reason to doubt that the aircraft were not safe, they would not fly them.

          – Johnny
          4 hours ago











        • Playing devil's advocate, what would happen when a passenger who gets onboard of an airplane notices something that seems far out of place, like exposed wiring, a cracked window, visibly intoxicated pilot… you get the point, and then requests not to fly on this airplane, ssuming that the staff onboard is claiming airworthiness?

          – sleblanc
          1 hour ago










        22




        22





        The airline and regulators are the competent authorities to determine whether a type of plane is safe to fly, but the person who decides whether a particular plane is safe to fly is the pilot in command, and he/she has absolute authority to refuse to fly it for any reason whatever. If the PIC is happy to risk his/her own life flying the plane, it's unlikely that the passengers have any better information to make a rational judgement.

        – alephzero
        13 hours ago







        The airline and regulators are the competent authorities to determine whether a type of plane is safe to fly, but the person who decides whether a particular plane is safe to fly is the pilot in command, and he/she has absolute authority to refuse to fly it for any reason whatever. If the PIC is happy to risk his/her own life flying the plane, it's unlikely that the passengers have any better information to make a rational judgement.

        – alephzero
        13 hours ago















        @alephzero Good point -- I've edited to insert "type of".

        – David Richerby
        13 hours ago





        @alephzero Good point -- I've edited to insert "type of".

        – David Richerby
        13 hours ago




        12




        12





        @alephzero but the pilot has survival bias, pressure from his contract. I agree that most passengers have no better judgment than the pilot, but that the pilot is willing to risk his live, is not much of a guarantee. See also the example of the flight with the Football player Sala.

        – Hjan
        12 hours ago





        @alephzero but the pilot has survival bias, pressure from his contract. I agree that most passengers have no better judgment than the pilot, but that the pilot is willing to risk his live, is not much of a guarantee. See also the example of the flight with the Football player Sala.

        – Hjan
        12 hours ago




        1




        1





        The airlines (and Boeing) also have monetary incentive to not fly unsafe planes. Even if there's no firm evidence that the planes are not safe today, if, say, a Southwest 737 Max has an accident tomorrow and it has the same root cause as the Ethiopian Airlines crash, they will likely face much higher payouts after the inevitable lawsuits when lawyers plant the seeds of doubt about whether or not the airline should have grounded the planes. If the airlines had any reason to doubt that the aircraft were not safe, they would not fly them.

        – Johnny
        4 hours ago





        The airlines (and Boeing) also have monetary incentive to not fly unsafe planes. Even if there's no firm evidence that the planes are not safe today, if, say, a Southwest 737 Max has an accident tomorrow and it has the same root cause as the Ethiopian Airlines crash, they will likely face much higher payouts after the inevitable lawsuits when lawyers plant the seeds of doubt about whether or not the airline should have grounded the planes. If the airlines had any reason to doubt that the aircraft were not safe, they would not fly them.

        – Johnny
        4 hours ago













        Playing devil's advocate, what would happen when a passenger who gets onboard of an airplane notices something that seems far out of place, like exposed wiring, a cracked window, visibly intoxicated pilot… you get the point, and then requests not to fly on this airplane, ssuming that the staff onboard is claiming airworthiness?

        – sleblanc
        1 hour ago







        Playing devil's advocate, what would happen when a passenger who gets onboard of an airplane notices something that seems far out of place, like exposed wiring, a cracked window, visibly intoxicated pilot… you get the point, and then requests not to fly on this airplane, ssuming that the staff onboard is claiming airworthiness?

        – sleblanc
        1 hour ago















        29














        If a regulator has ordered that aircraft grounded and an airline continues to fly it, contact the regulator. Beyond that, you would have a hard time arguing that the fears were "well founded". They may not be baseless, but still not "well founded".



        At that point, it would be a passenger voluntarily refusing to board. No recourse.






        share|improve this answer




























          29














          If a regulator has ordered that aircraft grounded and an airline continues to fly it, contact the regulator. Beyond that, you would have a hard time arguing that the fears were "well founded". They may not be baseless, but still not "well founded".



          At that point, it would be a passenger voluntarily refusing to board. No recourse.






          share|improve this answer


























            29












            29








            29







            If a regulator has ordered that aircraft grounded and an airline continues to fly it, contact the regulator. Beyond that, you would have a hard time arguing that the fears were "well founded". They may not be baseless, but still not "well founded".



            At that point, it would be a passenger voluntarily refusing to board. No recourse.






            share|improve this answer













            If a regulator has ordered that aircraft grounded and an airline continues to fly it, contact the regulator. Beyond that, you would have a hard time arguing that the fears were "well founded". They may not be baseless, but still not "well founded".



            At that point, it would be a passenger voluntarily refusing to board. No recourse.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 15 hours ago









            RichardRichard

            1,423517




            1,423517























                7














                Simple, No recourse. You may always politely ask for rescheduling to different equipment. "It doesn't cost anything to be nice" -- Bear Bryant






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                pearlvfr is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                  7














                  Simple, No recourse. You may always politely ask for rescheduling to different equipment. "It doesn't cost anything to be nice" -- Bear Bryant






                  share|improve this answer








                  New contributor




                  pearlvfr is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                    7












                    7








                    7







                    Simple, No recourse. You may always politely ask for rescheduling to different equipment. "It doesn't cost anything to be nice" -- Bear Bryant






                    share|improve this answer








                    New contributor




                    pearlvfr is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.










                    Simple, No recourse. You may always politely ask for rescheduling to different equipment. "It doesn't cost anything to be nice" -- Bear Bryant







                    share|improve this answer








                    New contributor




                    pearlvfr is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer






                    New contributor




                    pearlvfr is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                    answered 13 hours ago









                    pearlvfrpearlvfr

                    811




                    811




                    New contributor




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                    New contributor





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                        1














                        NPR.org reports that:




                        The Federal Aviation Administration says it plans to require a series
                        of design changes to the Boeing 737 MAX fleet after a pair of fatal
                        plane crashes including one yesterday in Ethiopia that killed all 157
                        people on board.




                        Boeing confirms it's in the process of enhancing the flight control software for the plane, including the MCAS software.



                        CBC.ca reported that:




                        The Air Canada Pilots Association, the union for Air Canada and Air
                        Canada Rouge pilots, sent out a statement urging Transport Canada "to
                        take proactive action to ensure the safety of the Canadian travelling
                        public."




                        Not exactly clear what they meant by that but the Transport Minister (of Canada) would consider it "premature" to ground the 41 planes of that model owned by Canadian airline companies according to CBC.





                        I'm afraid that doesn't provide further options for the consumer. So I guess all that's left is for people who think the precautionary principle requires them to not fly in such planes would be to cancel their bookings, try to get a refund from the seller and purchase new tickets trying to ascertain what plane they'll be flying on. If as some people have stated it's possible to guarantee that you'll fly in the plane described when booking, then you may choose a direct flight with an airline which doesn't operate the said plane...






                        share|improve this answer








                        New contributor




                        user93442 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.

























                          1














                          NPR.org reports that:




                          The Federal Aviation Administration says it plans to require a series
                          of design changes to the Boeing 737 MAX fleet after a pair of fatal
                          plane crashes including one yesterday in Ethiopia that killed all 157
                          people on board.




                          Boeing confirms it's in the process of enhancing the flight control software for the plane, including the MCAS software.



                          CBC.ca reported that:




                          The Air Canada Pilots Association, the union for Air Canada and Air
                          Canada Rouge pilots, sent out a statement urging Transport Canada "to
                          take proactive action to ensure the safety of the Canadian travelling
                          public."




                          Not exactly clear what they meant by that but the Transport Minister (of Canada) would consider it "premature" to ground the 41 planes of that model owned by Canadian airline companies according to CBC.





                          I'm afraid that doesn't provide further options for the consumer. So I guess all that's left is for people who think the precautionary principle requires them to not fly in such planes would be to cancel their bookings, try to get a refund from the seller and purchase new tickets trying to ascertain what plane they'll be flying on. If as some people have stated it's possible to guarantee that you'll fly in the plane described when booking, then you may choose a direct flight with an airline which doesn't operate the said plane...






                          share|improve this answer








                          New contributor




                          user93442 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                          Check out our Code of Conduct.























                            1












                            1








                            1







                            NPR.org reports that:




                            The Federal Aviation Administration says it plans to require a series
                            of design changes to the Boeing 737 MAX fleet after a pair of fatal
                            plane crashes including one yesterday in Ethiopia that killed all 157
                            people on board.




                            Boeing confirms it's in the process of enhancing the flight control software for the plane, including the MCAS software.



                            CBC.ca reported that:




                            The Air Canada Pilots Association, the union for Air Canada and Air
                            Canada Rouge pilots, sent out a statement urging Transport Canada "to
                            take proactive action to ensure the safety of the Canadian travelling
                            public."




                            Not exactly clear what they meant by that but the Transport Minister (of Canada) would consider it "premature" to ground the 41 planes of that model owned by Canadian airline companies according to CBC.





                            I'm afraid that doesn't provide further options for the consumer. So I guess all that's left is for people who think the precautionary principle requires them to not fly in such planes would be to cancel their bookings, try to get a refund from the seller and purchase new tickets trying to ascertain what plane they'll be flying on. If as some people have stated it's possible to guarantee that you'll fly in the plane described when booking, then you may choose a direct flight with an airline which doesn't operate the said plane...






                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




                            user93442 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.










                            NPR.org reports that:




                            The Federal Aviation Administration says it plans to require a series
                            of design changes to the Boeing 737 MAX fleet after a pair of fatal
                            plane crashes including one yesterday in Ethiopia that killed all 157
                            people on board.




                            Boeing confirms it's in the process of enhancing the flight control software for the plane, including the MCAS software.



                            CBC.ca reported that:




                            The Air Canada Pilots Association, the union for Air Canada and Air
                            Canada Rouge pilots, sent out a statement urging Transport Canada "to
                            take proactive action to ensure the safety of the Canadian travelling
                            public."




                            Not exactly clear what they meant by that but the Transport Minister (of Canada) would consider it "premature" to ground the 41 planes of that model owned by Canadian airline companies according to CBC.





                            I'm afraid that doesn't provide further options for the consumer. So I guess all that's left is for people who think the precautionary principle requires them to not fly in such planes would be to cancel their bookings, try to get a refund from the seller and purchase new tickets trying to ascertain what plane they'll be flying on. If as some people have stated it's possible to guarantee that you'll fly in the plane described when booking, then you may choose a direct flight with an airline which doesn't operate the said plane...







                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




                            user93442 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.









                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer






                            New contributor




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                            answered 1 hour ago









                            user93442user93442

                            111




                            111




                            New contributor




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                            New contributor





                            user93442 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.






                            user93442 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.























                                -1














                                Since it is easy to determine what aircraft model is on a particular flight, when you buy the ticket, you are effectively approving that model. So you have no grounds for refusing it and even les grounds for making any demands.






                                share|improve this answer



















                                • 1





                                  It's actually virtually impossible to guarantee what aircraft model you'll end up flying on. Some booking sites will tell you what's scheduled, but those can change at no notice.

                                  – jpatokal
                                  3 hours ago






                                • 1





                                  Also if you booked more than two days ago you would not have known what you know now.

                                  – DJClayworth
                                  2 hours ago
















                                -1














                                Since it is easy to determine what aircraft model is on a particular flight, when you buy the ticket, you are effectively approving that model. So you have no grounds for refusing it and even les grounds for making any demands.






                                share|improve this answer



















                                • 1





                                  It's actually virtually impossible to guarantee what aircraft model you'll end up flying on. Some booking sites will tell you what's scheduled, but those can change at no notice.

                                  – jpatokal
                                  3 hours ago






                                • 1





                                  Also if you booked more than two days ago you would not have known what you know now.

                                  – DJClayworth
                                  2 hours ago














                                -1












                                -1








                                -1







                                Since it is easy to determine what aircraft model is on a particular flight, when you buy the ticket, you are effectively approving that model. So you have no grounds for refusing it and even les grounds for making any demands.






                                share|improve this answer













                                Since it is easy to determine what aircraft model is on a particular flight, when you buy the ticket, you are effectively approving that model. So you have no grounds for refusing it and even les grounds for making any demands.







                                share|improve this answer












                                share|improve this answer



                                share|improve this answer










                                answered 4 hours ago









                                WGroleauWGroleau

                                3,49111544




                                3,49111544








                                • 1





                                  It's actually virtually impossible to guarantee what aircraft model you'll end up flying on. Some booking sites will tell you what's scheduled, but those can change at no notice.

                                  – jpatokal
                                  3 hours ago






                                • 1





                                  Also if you booked more than two days ago you would not have known what you know now.

                                  – DJClayworth
                                  2 hours ago














                                • 1





                                  It's actually virtually impossible to guarantee what aircraft model you'll end up flying on. Some booking sites will tell you what's scheduled, but those can change at no notice.

                                  – jpatokal
                                  3 hours ago






                                • 1





                                  Also if you booked more than two days ago you would not have known what you know now.

                                  – DJClayworth
                                  2 hours ago








                                1




                                1





                                It's actually virtually impossible to guarantee what aircraft model you'll end up flying on. Some booking sites will tell you what's scheduled, but those can change at no notice.

                                – jpatokal
                                3 hours ago





                                It's actually virtually impossible to guarantee what aircraft model you'll end up flying on. Some booking sites will tell you what's scheduled, but those can change at no notice.

                                – jpatokal
                                3 hours ago




                                1




                                1





                                Also if you booked more than two days ago you would not have known what you know now.

                                – DJClayworth
                                2 hours ago





                                Also if you booked more than two days ago you would not have known what you know now.

                                – DJClayworth
                                2 hours ago


















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