Do f-stop and exposure time perfectly cancel?












4















I am photographing a scene with white and black elements in it. Starting at the f/22 stop, I increase the aperture one stop and decrease the exposure time by a factor of 2, take a picture, and keep doing this for all the f-stops on the lens. My expectation is that raw counts should stay the same inside a white region or a black region since halving the exposure time compensates for increasing the aperture. But when I select a white region and average its pixel raw counts for each image, there is variability between the images (the standard deviation of the raw counts is ~5% of the mean). Same thing if I select and average a black region. I am not knowingly changing anything else (illumination, camera position), and the camera is a scientific CMOS. What could be causing this variation: noise, or something more systematic?










share|improve this question




















  • 1





    What is the lens? Is it also designed for scientific purposes? If so, does it come with a datasheet listing tolerances, or can you get that from the manufacturer?

    – mattdm
    12 hours ago











  • Nothing is "perfect" in the cameras used for artistic/documentary photography. As with any technical device, there are always tolerances to be considered. For typical cameras, historically that tolerance has been about 1/3 stop, though in more recent times we seem to have settled on 1/6 stop. If you need scientific quality measurements from a camera, you should consider lab grade instruments rather than consumer grade cameras (even the top "pro" models are consumer grade in this context). But be prepared to pay tens of thousands of dollars instead of hundreds or a few thousand dollars.

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago








  • 1





    Much of this ground has already been covered in great detail in the answers and comments to Is there a sane reason why ¹⁄₁₂₅ is not, instead, exactly half of ¹⁄₆₀?

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago











  • and a bit in Why are 1/3 stop apertures uneven numbers apart? and links therein.

    – uhoh
    7 hours ago













  • @uhoh In that question, the main issue is the difference between rounded displayed values versus more precise target values used internally by the camera. Not much is made in the answers of the differences between the target values and the actual values when the picture is taken. The discussion regarding that is much more extensive in the question I linked.

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago


















4















I am photographing a scene with white and black elements in it. Starting at the f/22 stop, I increase the aperture one stop and decrease the exposure time by a factor of 2, take a picture, and keep doing this for all the f-stops on the lens. My expectation is that raw counts should stay the same inside a white region or a black region since halving the exposure time compensates for increasing the aperture. But when I select a white region and average its pixel raw counts for each image, there is variability between the images (the standard deviation of the raw counts is ~5% of the mean). Same thing if I select and average a black region. I am not knowingly changing anything else (illumination, camera position), and the camera is a scientific CMOS. What could be causing this variation: noise, or something more systematic?










share|improve this question




















  • 1





    What is the lens? Is it also designed for scientific purposes? If so, does it come with a datasheet listing tolerances, or can you get that from the manufacturer?

    – mattdm
    12 hours ago











  • Nothing is "perfect" in the cameras used for artistic/documentary photography. As with any technical device, there are always tolerances to be considered. For typical cameras, historically that tolerance has been about 1/3 stop, though in more recent times we seem to have settled on 1/6 stop. If you need scientific quality measurements from a camera, you should consider lab grade instruments rather than consumer grade cameras (even the top "pro" models are consumer grade in this context). But be prepared to pay tens of thousands of dollars instead of hundreds or a few thousand dollars.

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago








  • 1





    Much of this ground has already been covered in great detail in the answers and comments to Is there a sane reason why ¹⁄₁₂₅ is not, instead, exactly half of ¹⁄₆₀?

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago











  • and a bit in Why are 1/3 stop apertures uneven numbers apart? and links therein.

    – uhoh
    7 hours ago













  • @uhoh In that question, the main issue is the difference between rounded displayed values versus more precise target values used internally by the camera. Not much is made in the answers of the differences between the target values and the actual values when the picture is taken. The discussion regarding that is much more extensive in the question I linked.

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago
















4












4








4








I am photographing a scene with white and black elements in it. Starting at the f/22 stop, I increase the aperture one stop and decrease the exposure time by a factor of 2, take a picture, and keep doing this for all the f-stops on the lens. My expectation is that raw counts should stay the same inside a white region or a black region since halving the exposure time compensates for increasing the aperture. But when I select a white region and average its pixel raw counts for each image, there is variability between the images (the standard deviation of the raw counts is ~5% of the mean). Same thing if I select and average a black region. I am not knowingly changing anything else (illumination, camera position), and the camera is a scientific CMOS. What could be causing this variation: noise, or something more systematic?










share|improve this question
















I am photographing a scene with white and black elements in it. Starting at the f/22 stop, I increase the aperture one stop and decrease the exposure time by a factor of 2, take a picture, and keep doing this for all the f-stops on the lens. My expectation is that raw counts should stay the same inside a white region or a black region since halving the exposure time compensates for increasing the aperture. But when I select a white region and average its pixel raw counts for each image, there is variability between the images (the standard deviation of the raw counts is ~5% of the mean). Same thing if I select and average a black region. I am not knowingly changing anything else (illumination, camera position), and the camera is a scientific CMOS. What could be causing this variation: noise, or something more systematic?







exposure aperture






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 13 hours ago







KAE

















asked 14 hours ago









KAEKAE

21718




21718








  • 1





    What is the lens? Is it also designed for scientific purposes? If so, does it come with a datasheet listing tolerances, or can you get that from the manufacturer?

    – mattdm
    12 hours ago











  • Nothing is "perfect" in the cameras used for artistic/documentary photography. As with any technical device, there are always tolerances to be considered. For typical cameras, historically that tolerance has been about 1/3 stop, though in more recent times we seem to have settled on 1/6 stop. If you need scientific quality measurements from a camera, you should consider lab grade instruments rather than consumer grade cameras (even the top "pro" models are consumer grade in this context). But be prepared to pay tens of thousands of dollars instead of hundreds or a few thousand dollars.

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago








  • 1





    Much of this ground has already been covered in great detail in the answers and comments to Is there a sane reason why ¹⁄₁₂₅ is not, instead, exactly half of ¹⁄₆₀?

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago











  • and a bit in Why are 1/3 stop apertures uneven numbers apart? and links therein.

    – uhoh
    7 hours ago













  • @uhoh In that question, the main issue is the difference between rounded displayed values versus more precise target values used internally by the camera. Not much is made in the answers of the differences between the target values and the actual values when the picture is taken. The discussion regarding that is much more extensive in the question I linked.

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago
















  • 1





    What is the lens? Is it also designed for scientific purposes? If so, does it come with a datasheet listing tolerances, or can you get that from the manufacturer?

    – mattdm
    12 hours ago











  • Nothing is "perfect" in the cameras used for artistic/documentary photography. As with any technical device, there are always tolerances to be considered. For typical cameras, historically that tolerance has been about 1/3 stop, though in more recent times we seem to have settled on 1/6 stop. If you need scientific quality measurements from a camera, you should consider lab grade instruments rather than consumer grade cameras (even the top "pro" models are consumer grade in this context). But be prepared to pay tens of thousands of dollars instead of hundreds or a few thousand dollars.

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago








  • 1





    Much of this ground has already been covered in great detail in the answers and comments to Is there a sane reason why ¹⁄₁₂₅ is not, instead, exactly half of ¹⁄₆₀?

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago











  • and a bit in Why are 1/3 stop apertures uneven numbers apart? and links therein.

    – uhoh
    7 hours ago













  • @uhoh In that question, the main issue is the difference between rounded displayed values versus more precise target values used internally by the camera. Not much is made in the answers of the differences between the target values and the actual values when the picture is taken. The discussion regarding that is much more extensive in the question I linked.

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago










1




1





What is the lens? Is it also designed for scientific purposes? If so, does it come with a datasheet listing tolerances, or can you get that from the manufacturer?

– mattdm
12 hours ago





What is the lens? Is it also designed for scientific purposes? If so, does it come with a datasheet listing tolerances, or can you get that from the manufacturer?

– mattdm
12 hours ago













Nothing is "perfect" in the cameras used for artistic/documentary photography. As with any technical device, there are always tolerances to be considered. For typical cameras, historically that tolerance has been about 1/3 stop, though in more recent times we seem to have settled on 1/6 stop. If you need scientific quality measurements from a camera, you should consider lab grade instruments rather than consumer grade cameras (even the top "pro" models are consumer grade in this context). But be prepared to pay tens of thousands of dollars instead of hundreds or a few thousand dollars.

– Michael C
7 hours ago







Nothing is "perfect" in the cameras used for artistic/documentary photography. As with any technical device, there are always tolerances to be considered. For typical cameras, historically that tolerance has been about 1/3 stop, though in more recent times we seem to have settled on 1/6 stop. If you need scientific quality measurements from a camera, you should consider lab grade instruments rather than consumer grade cameras (even the top "pro" models are consumer grade in this context). But be prepared to pay tens of thousands of dollars instead of hundreds or a few thousand dollars.

– Michael C
7 hours ago






1




1





Much of this ground has already been covered in great detail in the answers and comments to Is there a sane reason why ¹⁄₁₂₅ is not, instead, exactly half of ¹⁄₆₀?

– Michael C
7 hours ago





Much of this ground has already been covered in great detail in the answers and comments to Is there a sane reason why ¹⁄₁₂₅ is not, instead, exactly half of ¹⁄₆₀?

– Michael C
7 hours ago













and a bit in Why are 1/3 stop apertures uneven numbers apart? and links therein.

– uhoh
7 hours ago







and a bit in Why are 1/3 stop apertures uneven numbers apart? and links therein.

– uhoh
7 hours ago















@uhoh In that question, the main issue is the difference between rounded displayed values versus more precise target values used internally by the camera. Not much is made in the answers of the differences between the target values and the actual values when the picture is taken. The discussion regarding that is much more extensive in the question I linked.

– Michael C
7 hours ago







@uhoh In that question, the main issue is the difference between rounded displayed values versus more precise target values used internally by the camera. Not much is made in the answers of the differences between the target values and the actual values when the picture is taken. The discussion regarding that is much more extensive in the question I linked.

– Michael C
7 hours ago












5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















9














This is normal behavior, caused by:




  1. Imperfections of aperture. Usually there are variations from
    technology process which cause not to have exact size of the hole.
    On 50mm lens f4 you should have 12.5mm opening, but it can be 12.4mm
    or 12.6mm

  2. Imperfections in shutter speed. The shutter is also mechanical unit
    and based on some factors as temperature, how precise are the blades
    and other elements inside, speed will be not 1/100s but can be
    1/110s or 1/90s.

  3. The same is true about the sensor itself (from electronic point of
    view)


At the end even two consecutive photos can have different (slightly) exposure.



And add fluctuation of your illumination source...






share|improve this answer
























  • So 'noise' and not something systematic. That makes sense.

    – KAE
    13 hours ago











  • @KAE, you can name it noise :) There are so many variables so at the end it is random

    – Romeo Ninov
    13 hours ago






  • 1





    Funfact: some cameras store the real measured aperture and shutter speed in the metadatas. And I saw some really interesting values there. But I have also admit that some of these values are a little bit odd, maybe there is missing a scaling factor.

    – Horitsu
    1 hour ago



















6














In theory, yes — stops are interchangeable. In practice, they do not perfectly cancel to perfect precision.




the standard deviation of the raw counts is ~5% of the mean




In photographic terms, this is basically nothing. It is far below human perception, and even when the difference is noticeable, the generally-expected workflow involves working with each image individually, so the photographer can compensate either in the field or in post-production.



Cameras meant for photography are not measuring devices; using them as such is setting yourself up for disappointment. Making the devices much more precise would be a lot more expensive and provide no benefit for the target market. Even if you have a camera made for scientific purposes, these particular tolerances might not be within the relevant area of concern.



If you're trying to get perfection for something like a time-lapse or another series of photos, post-processing to even out the fluctuations is your best bet.






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    Good idea to even out the fluctuations - maybe I will take a lot of frames and average the pixel values.

    – KAE
    13 hours ago



















4














The short answer is yes... they cancel. But there are some nuances.



Each time the diameter of a circle increases (or decreases) by a factor equal to the square root of 2 (approximately 1.4) the area of that circle is exactly doubled (or halved if decreased). The f-stop numbers are all based on powers of the square root of 2 (e.g. f/1 = √2^0; f/1.4 = √2^1; f/2 = √2^2; f/2.8 = √2^3; etc.)



Shutter exposures are more intuitive. 1/500th sec is obviously half as long as 1/250th sec, etc.



The nuances:



Cameras do a bit of rounding. E.g. if you have a 100mm lens it's probably not precisely 100mm (but it's probably not far off) and as you refocus, the lens may do a bit of focus breathing (for a good lens that stays with 5% of the stated focal length ... but some lenses have rather strong focus-breathing issues ... e.g. 30%. When this happens, it means the f-stop isn't strictly accurate.



F-stops aren't strictly accurate as it is. But they are "close enough" that the margin of error wont impact the exposure in a noticeable way.



There are other issues. When you shoot heavily stopped down (e.g. f/22), all light comes from a very small area near the center of the lens axis and is distributed across the sensor more evenly. When you shoot wide-open, light comes from a wide range of angles. Areas of the sensor near the center can collect light from many angles, but areas of the sensor near an edge or corner are more limited on the number of paths light can take through the lens to reach that particular spot. This results in vignetting. So while you can take two photos using "equivalent exposures" (trading a stop of aperture for a stop of shutter duration), changes in vignetting patterns can cause pixels to have a different amount of collected light depending on the pixel you choose to inspect.






share|improve this answer
























  • While this is a good answer, where are you getting the numbers for focus breathing from?

    – Hairy Dresden
    12 hours ago






  • 2





    @Hairy Dresdon, just reviews of various lenses. But these are tests you can also do yourself. E.g. while looking through a viewfinder (or even in live-view) run the focus through the full range and watch the field of view change. You can can also use calculators (like this one: tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm ) to work out the true focal length (relative to what it should be). There are a few lenses that have reputations for being "heavy breathers".

    – Tim Campbell
    12 hours ago











  • The AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G VR II is notorious for "breathing" to about 140mm when zoomed to 200mm and focused at MFD. Nikon corrected this with the more recent AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8E FL VR (at a price of about $2,900!).

    – Michael C
    7 hours ago



















2














I think it wasn't mentioned: with increase in exposure time comes increase in thermal Dark Shot noise. You can read more here, for example



enter image description here






share|improve this answer































    0














    With regard to systematic problems: you are taking into account that with opening up the aperture depth of focus decreases and thus the borders of out-of-focus scene parts blur? Also with small apertures you might get some blurring due to diffraction.



    If you have a mechanical shutter, you actually can get diffraction with large apertures from the resulting short shutter times when a significant amount of the exposure time is spent near at least one of the shutter curtains moving across.






    share|improve this answer








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      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes








      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      9














      This is normal behavior, caused by:




      1. Imperfections of aperture. Usually there are variations from
        technology process which cause not to have exact size of the hole.
        On 50mm lens f4 you should have 12.5mm opening, but it can be 12.4mm
        or 12.6mm

      2. Imperfections in shutter speed. The shutter is also mechanical unit
        and based on some factors as temperature, how precise are the blades
        and other elements inside, speed will be not 1/100s but can be
        1/110s or 1/90s.

      3. The same is true about the sensor itself (from electronic point of
        view)


      At the end even two consecutive photos can have different (slightly) exposure.



      And add fluctuation of your illumination source...






      share|improve this answer
























      • So 'noise' and not something systematic. That makes sense.

        – KAE
        13 hours ago











      • @KAE, you can name it noise :) There are so many variables so at the end it is random

        – Romeo Ninov
        13 hours ago






      • 1





        Funfact: some cameras store the real measured aperture and shutter speed in the metadatas. And I saw some really interesting values there. But I have also admit that some of these values are a little bit odd, maybe there is missing a scaling factor.

        – Horitsu
        1 hour ago
















      9














      This is normal behavior, caused by:




      1. Imperfections of aperture. Usually there are variations from
        technology process which cause not to have exact size of the hole.
        On 50mm lens f4 you should have 12.5mm opening, but it can be 12.4mm
        or 12.6mm

      2. Imperfections in shutter speed. The shutter is also mechanical unit
        and based on some factors as temperature, how precise are the blades
        and other elements inside, speed will be not 1/100s but can be
        1/110s or 1/90s.

      3. The same is true about the sensor itself (from electronic point of
        view)


      At the end even two consecutive photos can have different (slightly) exposure.



      And add fluctuation of your illumination source...






      share|improve this answer
























      • So 'noise' and not something systematic. That makes sense.

        – KAE
        13 hours ago











      • @KAE, you can name it noise :) There are so many variables so at the end it is random

        – Romeo Ninov
        13 hours ago






      • 1





        Funfact: some cameras store the real measured aperture and shutter speed in the metadatas. And I saw some really interesting values there. But I have also admit that some of these values are a little bit odd, maybe there is missing a scaling factor.

        – Horitsu
        1 hour ago














      9












      9








      9







      This is normal behavior, caused by:




      1. Imperfections of aperture. Usually there are variations from
        technology process which cause not to have exact size of the hole.
        On 50mm lens f4 you should have 12.5mm opening, but it can be 12.4mm
        or 12.6mm

      2. Imperfections in shutter speed. The shutter is also mechanical unit
        and based on some factors as temperature, how precise are the blades
        and other elements inside, speed will be not 1/100s but can be
        1/110s or 1/90s.

      3. The same is true about the sensor itself (from electronic point of
        view)


      At the end even two consecutive photos can have different (slightly) exposure.



      And add fluctuation of your illumination source...






      share|improve this answer













      This is normal behavior, caused by:




      1. Imperfections of aperture. Usually there are variations from
        technology process which cause not to have exact size of the hole.
        On 50mm lens f4 you should have 12.5mm opening, but it can be 12.4mm
        or 12.6mm

      2. Imperfections in shutter speed. The shutter is also mechanical unit
        and based on some factors as temperature, how precise are the blades
        and other elements inside, speed will be not 1/100s but can be
        1/110s or 1/90s.

      3. The same is true about the sensor itself (from electronic point of
        view)


      At the end even two consecutive photos can have different (slightly) exposure.



      And add fluctuation of your illumination source...







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 14 hours ago









      Romeo NinovRomeo Ninov

      3,78931226




      3,78931226













      • So 'noise' and not something systematic. That makes sense.

        – KAE
        13 hours ago











      • @KAE, you can name it noise :) There are so many variables so at the end it is random

        – Romeo Ninov
        13 hours ago






      • 1





        Funfact: some cameras store the real measured aperture and shutter speed in the metadatas. And I saw some really interesting values there. But I have also admit that some of these values are a little bit odd, maybe there is missing a scaling factor.

        – Horitsu
        1 hour ago



















      • So 'noise' and not something systematic. That makes sense.

        – KAE
        13 hours ago











      • @KAE, you can name it noise :) There are so many variables so at the end it is random

        – Romeo Ninov
        13 hours ago






      • 1





        Funfact: some cameras store the real measured aperture and shutter speed in the metadatas. And I saw some really interesting values there. But I have also admit that some of these values are a little bit odd, maybe there is missing a scaling factor.

        – Horitsu
        1 hour ago

















      So 'noise' and not something systematic. That makes sense.

      – KAE
      13 hours ago





      So 'noise' and not something systematic. That makes sense.

      – KAE
      13 hours ago













      @KAE, you can name it noise :) There are so many variables so at the end it is random

      – Romeo Ninov
      13 hours ago





      @KAE, you can name it noise :) There are so many variables so at the end it is random

      – Romeo Ninov
      13 hours ago




      1




      1





      Funfact: some cameras store the real measured aperture and shutter speed in the metadatas. And I saw some really interesting values there. But I have also admit that some of these values are a little bit odd, maybe there is missing a scaling factor.

      – Horitsu
      1 hour ago





      Funfact: some cameras store the real measured aperture and shutter speed in the metadatas. And I saw some really interesting values there. But I have also admit that some of these values are a little bit odd, maybe there is missing a scaling factor.

      – Horitsu
      1 hour ago













      6














      In theory, yes — stops are interchangeable. In practice, they do not perfectly cancel to perfect precision.




      the standard deviation of the raw counts is ~5% of the mean




      In photographic terms, this is basically nothing. It is far below human perception, and even when the difference is noticeable, the generally-expected workflow involves working with each image individually, so the photographer can compensate either in the field or in post-production.



      Cameras meant for photography are not measuring devices; using them as such is setting yourself up for disappointment. Making the devices much more precise would be a lot more expensive and provide no benefit for the target market. Even if you have a camera made for scientific purposes, these particular tolerances might not be within the relevant area of concern.



      If you're trying to get perfection for something like a time-lapse or another series of photos, post-processing to even out the fluctuations is your best bet.






      share|improve this answer





















      • 1





        Good idea to even out the fluctuations - maybe I will take a lot of frames and average the pixel values.

        – KAE
        13 hours ago
















      6














      In theory, yes — stops are interchangeable. In practice, they do not perfectly cancel to perfect precision.




      the standard deviation of the raw counts is ~5% of the mean




      In photographic terms, this is basically nothing. It is far below human perception, and even when the difference is noticeable, the generally-expected workflow involves working with each image individually, so the photographer can compensate either in the field or in post-production.



      Cameras meant for photography are not measuring devices; using them as such is setting yourself up for disappointment. Making the devices much more precise would be a lot more expensive and provide no benefit for the target market. Even if you have a camera made for scientific purposes, these particular tolerances might not be within the relevant area of concern.



      If you're trying to get perfection for something like a time-lapse or another series of photos, post-processing to even out the fluctuations is your best bet.






      share|improve this answer





















      • 1





        Good idea to even out the fluctuations - maybe I will take a lot of frames and average the pixel values.

        – KAE
        13 hours ago














      6












      6








      6







      In theory, yes — stops are interchangeable. In practice, they do not perfectly cancel to perfect precision.




      the standard deviation of the raw counts is ~5% of the mean




      In photographic terms, this is basically nothing. It is far below human perception, and even when the difference is noticeable, the generally-expected workflow involves working with each image individually, so the photographer can compensate either in the field or in post-production.



      Cameras meant for photography are not measuring devices; using them as such is setting yourself up for disappointment. Making the devices much more precise would be a lot more expensive and provide no benefit for the target market. Even if you have a camera made for scientific purposes, these particular tolerances might not be within the relevant area of concern.



      If you're trying to get perfection for something like a time-lapse or another series of photos, post-processing to even out the fluctuations is your best bet.






      share|improve this answer















      In theory, yes — stops are interchangeable. In practice, they do not perfectly cancel to perfect precision.




      the standard deviation of the raw counts is ~5% of the mean




      In photographic terms, this is basically nothing. It is far below human perception, and even when the difference is noticeable, the generally-expected workflow involves working with each image individually, so the photographer can compensate either in the field or in post-production.



      Cameras meant for photography are not measuring devices; using them as such is setting yourself up for disappointment. Making the devices much more precise would be a lot more expensive and provide no benefit for the target market. Even if you have a camera made for scientific purposes, these particular tolerances might not be within the relevant area of concern.



      If you're trying to get perfection for something like a time-lapse or another series of photos, post-processing to even out the fluctuations is your best bet.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 11 hours ago

























      answered 13 hours ago









      mattdmmattdm

      121k40356650




      121k40356650








      • 1





        Good idea to even out the fluctuations - maybe I will take a lot of frames and average the pixel values.

        – KAE
        13 hours ago














      • 1





        Good idea to even out the fluctuations - maybe I will take a lot of frames and average the pixel values.

        – KAE
        13 hours ago








      1




      1





      Good idea to even out the fluctuations - maybe I will take a lot of frames and average the pixel values.

      – KAE
      13 hours ago





      Good idea to even out the fluctuations - maybe I will take a lot of frames and average the pixel values.

      – KAE
      13 hours ago











      4














      The short answer is yes... they cancel. But there are some nuances.



      Each time the diameter of a circle increases (or decreases) by a factor equal to the square root of 2 (approximately 1.4) the area of that circle is exactly doubled (or halved if decreased). The f-stop numbers are all based on powers of the square root of 2 (e.g. f/1 = √2^0; f/1.4 = √2^1; f/2 = √2^2; f/2.8 = √2^3; etc.)



      Shutter exposures are more intuitive. 1/500th sec is obviously half as long as 1/250th sec, etc.



      The nuances:



      Cameras do a bit of rounding. E.g. if you have a 100mm lens it's probably not precisely 100mm (but it's probably not far off) and as you refocus, the lens may do a bit of focus breathing (for a good lens that stays with 5% of the stated focal length ... but some lenses have rather strong focus-breathing issues ... e.g. 30%. When this happens, it means the f-stop isn't strictly accurate.



      F-stops aren't strictly accurate as it is. But they are "close enough" that the margin of error wont impact the exposure in a noticeable way.



      There are other issues. When you shoot heavily stopped down (e.g. f/22), all light comes from a very small area near the center of the lens axis and is distributed across the sensor more evenly. When you shoot wide-open, light comes from a wide range of angles. Areas of the sensor near the center can collect light from many angles, but areas of the sensor near an edge or corner are more limited on the number of paths light can take through the lens to reach that particular spot. This results in vignetting. So while you can take two photos using "equivalent exposures" (trading a stop of aperture for a stop of shutter duration), changes in vignetting patterns can cause pixels to have a different amount of collected light depending on the pixel you choose to inspect.






      share|improve this answer
























      • While this is a good answer, where are you getting the numbers for focus breathing from?

        – Hairy Dresden
        12 hours ago






      • 2





        @Hairy Dresdon, just reviews of various lenses. But these are tests you can also do yourself. E.g. while looking through a viewfinder (or even in live-view) run the focus through the full range and watch the field of view change. You can can also use calculators (like this one: tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm ) to work out the true focal length (relative to what it should be). There are a few lenses that have reputations for being "heavy breathers".

        – Tim Campbell
        12 hours ago











      • The AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G VR II is notorious for "breathing" to about 140mm when zoomed to 200mm and focused at MFD. Nikon corrected this with the more recent AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8E FL VR (at a price of about $2,900!).

        – Michael C
        7 hours ago
















      4














      The short answer is yes... they cancel. But there are some nuances.



      Each time the diameter of a circle increases (or decreases) by a factor equal to the square root of 2 (approximately 1.4) the area of that circle is exactly doubled (or halved if decreased). The f-stop numbers are all based on powers of the square root of 2 (e.g. f/1 = √2^0; f/1.4 = √2^1; f/2 = √2^2; f/2.8 = √2^3; etc.)



      Shutter exposures are more intuitive. 1/500th sec is obviously half as long as 1/250th sec, etc.



      The nuances:



      Cameras do a bit of rounding. E.g. if you have a 100mm lens it's probably not precisely 100mm (but it's probably not far off) and as you refocus, the lens may do a bit of focus breathing (for a good lens that stays with 5% of the stated focal length ... but some lenses have rather strong focus-breathing issues ... e.g. 30%. When this happens, it means the f-stop isn't strictly accurate.



      F-stops aren't strictly accurate as it is. But they are "close enough" that the margin of error wont impact the exposure in a noticeable way.



      There are other issues. When you shoot heavily stopped down (e.g. f/22), all light comes from a very small area near the center of the lens axis and is distributed across the sensor more evenly. When you shoot wide-open, light comes from a wide range of angles. Areas of the sensor near the center can collect light from many angles, but areas of the sensor near an edge or corner are more limited on the number of paths light can take through the lens to reach that particular spot. This results in vignetting. So while you can take two photos using "equivalent exposures" (trading a stop of aperture for a stop of shutter duration), changes in vignetting patterns can cause pixels to have a different amount of collected light depending on the pixel you choose to inspect.






      share|improve this answer
























      • While this is a good answer, where are you getting the numbers for focus breathing from?

        – Hairy Dresden
        12 hours ago






      • 2





        @Hairy Dresdon, just reviews of various lenses. But these are tests you can also do yourself. E.g. while looking through a viewfinder (or even in live-view) run the focus through the full range and watch the field of view change. You can can also use calculators (like this one: tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm ) to work out the true focal length (relative to what it should be). There are a few lenses that have reputations for being "heavy breathers".

        – Tim Campbell
        12 hours ago











      • The AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G VR II is notorious for "breathing" to about 140mm when zoomed to 200mm and focused at MFD. Nikon corrected this with the more recent AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8E FL VR (at a price of about $2,900!).

        – Michael C
        7 hours ago














      4












      4








      4







      The short answer is yes... they cancel. But there are some nuances.



      Each time the diameter of a circle increases (or decreases) by a factor equal to the square root of 2 (approximately 1.4) the area of that circle is exactly doubled (or halved if decreased). The f-stop numbers are all based on powers of the square root of 2 (e.g. f/1 = √2^0; f/1.4 = √2^1; f/2 = √2^2; f/2.8 = √2^3; etc.)



      Shutter exposures are more intuitive. 1/500th sec is obviously half as long as 1/250th sec, etc.



      The nuances:



      Cameras do a bit of rounding. E.g. if you have a 100mm lens it's probably not precisely 100mm (but it's probably not far off) and as you refocus, the lens may do a bit of focus breathing (for a good lens that stays with 5% of the stated focal length ... but some lenses have rather strong focus-breathing issues ... e.g. 30%. When this happens, it means the f-stop isn't strictly accurate.



      F-stops aren't strictly accurate as it is. But they are "close enough" that the margin of error wont impact the exposure in a noticeable way.



      There are other issues. When you shoot heavily stopped down (e.g. f/22), all light comes from a very small area near the center of the lens axis and is distributed across the sensor more evenly. When you shoot wide-open, light comes from a wide range of angles. Areas of the sensor near the center can collect light from many angles, but areas of the sensor near an edge or corner are more limited on the number of paths light can take through the lens to reach that particular spot. This results in vignetting. So while you can take two photos using "equivalent exposures" (trading a stop of aperture for a stop of shutter duration), changes in vignetting patterns can cause pixels to have a different amount of collected light depending on the pixel you choose to inspect.






      share|improve this answer













      The short answer is yes... they cancel. But there are some nuances.



      Each time the diameter of a circle increases (or decreases) by a factor equal to the square root of 2 (approximately 1.4) the area of that circle is exactly doubled (or halved if decreased). The f-stop numbers are all based on powers of the square root of 2 (e.g. f/1 = √2^0; f/1.4 = √2^1; f/2 = √2^2; f/2.8 = √2^3; etc.)



      Shutter exposures are more intuitive. 1/500th sec is obviously half as long as 1/250th sec, etc.



      The nuances:



      Cameras do a bit of rounding. E.g. if you have a 100mm lens it's probably not precisely 100mm (but it's probably not far off) and as you refocus, the lens may do a bit of focus breathing (for a good lens that stays with 5% of the stated focal length ... but some lenses have rather strong focus-breathing issues ... e.g. 30%. When this happens, it means the f-stop isn't strictly accurate.



      F-stops aren't strictly accurate as it is. But they are "close enough" that the margin of error wont impact the exposure in a noticeable way.



      There are other issues. When you shoot heavily stopped down (e.g. f/22), all light comes from a very small area near the center of the lens axis and is distributed across the sensor more evenly. When you shoot wide-open, light comes from a wide range of angles. Areas of the sensor near the center can collect light from many angles, but areas of the sensor near an edge or corner are more limited on the number of paths light can take through the lens to reach that particular spot. This results in vignetting. So while you can take two photos using "equivalent exposures" (trading a stop of aperture for a stop of shutter duration), changes in vignetting patterns can cause pixels to have a different amount of collected light depending on the pixel you choose to inspect.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 14 hours ago









      Tim CampbellTim Campbell

      1013




      1013













      • While this is a good answer, where are you getting the numbers for focus breathing from?

        – Hairy Dresden
        12 hours ago






      • 2





        @Hairy Dresdon, just reviews of various lenses. But these are tests you can also do yourself. E.g. while looking through a viewfinder (or even in live-view) run the focus through the full range and watch the field of view change. You can can also use calculators (like this one: tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm ) to work out the true focal length (relative to what it should be). There are a few lenses that have reputations for being "heavy breathers".

        – Tim Campbell
        12 hours ago











      • The AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G VR II is notorious for "breathing" to about 140mm when zoomed to 200mm and focused at MFD. Nikon corrected this with the more recent AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8E FL VR (at a price of about $2,900!).

        – Michael C
        7 hours ago



















      • While this is a good answer, where are you getting the numbers for focus breathing from?

        – Hairy Dresden
        12 hours ago






      • 2





        @Hairy Dresdon, just reviews of various lenses. But these are tests you can also do yourself. E.g. while looking through a viewfinder (or even in live-view) run the focus through the full range and watch the field of view change. You can can also use calculators (like this one: tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm ) to work out the true focal length (relative to what it should be). There are a few lenses that have reputations for being "heavy breathers".

        – Tim Campbell
        12 hours ago











      • The AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G VR II is notorious for "breathing" to about 140mm when zoomed to 200mm and focused at MFD. Nikon corrected this with the more recent AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8E FL VR (at a price of about $2,900!).

        – Michael C
        7 hours ago

















      While this is a good answer, where are you getting the numbers for focus breathing from?

      – Hairy Dresden
      12 hours ago





      While this is a good answer, where are you getting the numbers for focus breathing from?

      – Hairy Dresden
      12 hours ago




      2




      2





      @Hairy Dresdon, just reviews of various lenses. But these are tests you can also do yourself. E.g. while looking through a viewfinder (or even in live-view) run the focus through the full range and watch the field of view change. You can can also use calculators (like this one: tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm ) to work out the true focal length (relative to what it should be). There are a few lenses that have reputations for being "heavy breathers".

      – Tim Campbell
      12 hours ago





      @Hairy Dresdon, just reviews of various lenses. But these are tests you can also do yourself. E.g. while looking through a viewfinder (or even in live-view) run the focus through the full range and watch the field of view change. You can can also use calculators (like this one: tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm ) to work out the true focal length (relative to what it should be). There are a few lenses that have reputations for being "heavy breathers".

      – Tim Campbell
      12 hours ago













      The AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G VR II is notorious for "breathing" to about 140mm when zoomed to 200mm and focused at MFD. Nikon corrected this with the more recent AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8E FL VR (at a price of about $2,900!).

      – Michael C
      7 hours ago





      The AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G VR II is notorious for "breathing" to about 140mm when zoomed to 200mm and focused at MFD. Nikon corrected this with the more recent AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8E FL VR (at a price of about $2,900!).

      – Michael C
      7 hours ago











      2














      I think it wasn't mentioned: with increase in exposure time comes increase in thermal Dark Shot noise. You can read more here, for example



      enter image description here






      share|improve this answer




























        2














        I think it wasn't mentioned: with increase in exposure time comes increase in thermal Dark Shot noise. You can read more here, for example



        enter image description here






        share|improve this answer


























          2












          2








          2







          I think it wasn't mentioned: with increase in exposure time comes increase in thermal Dark Shot noise. You can read more here, for example



          enter image description here






          share|improve this answer













          I think it wasn't mentioned: with increase in exposure time comes increase in thermal Dark Shot noise. You can read more here, for example



          enter image description here







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 7 hours ago









          aaaaaaaaaaaa

          2,233721




          2,233721























              0














              With regard to systematic problems: you are taking into account that with opening up the aperture depth of focus decreases and thus the borders of out-of-focus scene parts blur? Also with small apertures you might get some blurring due to diffraction.



              If you have a mechanical shutter, you actually can get diffraction with large apertures from the resulting short shutter times when a significant amount of the exposure time is spent near at least one of the shutter curtains moving across.






              share|improve this answer








              New contributor




              user82603 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.

























                0














                With regard to systematic problems: you are taking into account that with opening up the aperture depth of focus decreases and thus the borders of out-of-focus scene parts blur? Also with small apertures you might get some blurring due to diffraction.



                If you have a mechanical shutter, you actually can get diffraction with large apertures from the resulting short shutter times when a significant amount of the exposure time is spent near at least one of the shutter curtains moving across.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                user82603 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.























                  0












                  0








                  0







                  With regard to systematic problems: you are taking into account that with opening up the aperture depth of focus decreases and thus the borders of out-of-focus scene parts blur? Also with small apertures you might get some blurring due to diffraction.



                  If you have a mechanical shutter, you actually can get diffraction with large apertures from the resulting short shutter times when a significant amount of the exposure time is spent near at least one of the shutter curtains moving across.






                  share|improve this answer








                  New contributor




                  user82603 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.










                  With regard to systematic problems: you are taking into account that with opening up the aperture depth of focus decreases and thus the borders of out-of-focus scene parts blur? Also with small apertures you might get some blurring due to diffraction.



                  If you have a mechanical shutter, you actually can get diffraction with large apertures from the resulting short shutter times when a significant amount of the exposure time is spent near at least one of the shutter curtains moving across.







                  share|improve this answer








                  New contributor




                  user82603 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer






                  New contributor




                  user82603 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                  answered 9 hours ago









                  user82603user82603

                  11




                  11




                  New contributor




                  user82603 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.





                  New contributor





                  user82603 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






                  user82603 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






























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