How does the Sleep spell interact with the Aspect of the Moon eldritch invocation?
$begingroup$
I have two questions with regards to how the spell Sleep interacts with the Eldritch Invocation Aspect of the Moon (hereafter AotM) for Pact of the Tome Warlocks from XGtE. I did not separate them into two separate question pages because the second is dependent on the answer to the first.
1. Does Sleep override AotM?
The phrasing of the invocation from XGtE pg. 56 is such:
"You no longer need to sleep and can't be forced to sleep by any means." (emphasis mine)
To me this phrasing sounds like it is specifically referring to means such as the Sleep spell, however I have seen it argued in other places that since Sleep's phrasing is:
"Each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends..." PHB pg. 276 (emphasis mine)
and AotM does not make one immune to the unconscious condition, said Warlock would still be affected. However the phrasing of the spell also uses words like "magical slumber" and "the sleeper". So question 1, is a Warlock with AotM affected by the Sleep spell or not?
2. If a Warlock with AotM is not affected by the Sleep spell, does their current HP count towards the total HP targeted by the spell?
The phrasing of the spell, again from PHB pg. 276 is:
"Roll 5d8; the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can affect. Creatures within 20 feet of a point you choose within range are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures.) Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on the creature with the next lowest hit points..."
If the Warlock with AotM has the lowest current HP, and they can't be affected by the spell, does their current HP still subtract from the total targetable HP? Or would the spell instead just skip them and start with the first creature that can be affected with the lowest current HP?
dnd-5e spells warlock
asked 4 hours ago
Rouge_LuigiRouge_Luigi
34429
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I have two questions with regards to how the spell Sleep interacts with the Eldritch Invocation Aspect of the Moon (hereafter AotM) for Pact of the Tome Warlocks from XGtE. I did not separate them into two separate question pages because the second is dependent on the answer to the first.
1. Does Sleep override AotM?
The phrasing of the invocation from XGtE pg. 56 is such:
"You no longer need to sleep and can't be forced to sleep by any means." (emphasis mine)
To me this phrasing sounds like it is specifically referring to means such as the Sleep spell, however I have seen it argued in other places that since Sleep's phrasing is:
"Each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends..." PHB pg. 276 (emphasis mine)
and AotM does not make one immune to the unconscious condition, said Warlock would still be affected. However the phrasing of the spell also uses words like "magical slumber" and "the sleeper". So question 1, is a Warlock with AotM affected by the Sleep spell or not?
2. If a Warlock with AotM is not affected by the Sleep spell, does their current HP count towards the total HP targeted by the spell?
The phrasing of the spell, again from PHB pg. 276 is:
"Roll 5d8; the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can affect. Creatures within 20 feet of a point you choose within range are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures.) Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on the creature with the next lowest hit points..."
If the Warlock with AotM has the lowest current HP, and they can't be affected by the spell, does their current HP still subtract from the total targetable HP? Or would the spell instead just skip them and start with the first creature that can be affected with the lowest current HP?
dnd-5e spells warlock
asked 4 hours ago
Rouge_LuigiRouge_Luigi
34429
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
This probably should have been two questions, as they're separable and can be answered independently of each other. Basically, "can the sleep spell put AotM warlock to sleep?" and "do creatures that can't be put to sleep count for the hp total of the sleep spell?"
$endgroup$
– Grosscol
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I have two questions with regards to how the spell Sleep interacts with the Eldritch Invocation Aspect of the Moon (hereafter AotM) for Pact of the Tome Warlocks from XGtE. I did not separate them into two separate question pages because the second is dependent on the answer to the first.
1. Does Sleep override AotM?
The phrasing of the invocation from XGtE pg. 56 is such:
"You no longer need to sleep and can't be forced to sleep by any means." (emphasis mine)
To me this phrasing sounds like it is specifically referring to means such as the Sleep spell, however I have seen it argued in other places that since Sleep's phrasing is:
"Each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends..." PHB pg. 276 (emphasis mine)
and AotM does not make one immune to the unconscious condition, said Warlock would still be affected. However the phrasing of the spell also uses words like "magical slumber" and "the sleeper". So question 1, is a Warlock with AotM affected by the Sleep spell or not?
2. If a Warlock with AotM is not affected by the Sleep spell, does their current HP count towards the total HP targeted by the spell?
The phrasing of the spell, again from PHB pg. 276 is:
"Roll 5d8; the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can affect. Creatures within 20 feet of a point you choose within range are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures.) Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on the creature with the next lowest hit points..."
If the Warlock with AotM has the lowest current HP, and they can't be affected by the spell, does their current HP still subtract from the total targetable HP? Or would the spell instead just skip them and start with the first creature that can be affected with the lowest current HP?
dnd-5e spells warlock
asked 4 hours ago
Rouge_LuigiRouge_Luigi
34429
$endgroup$
I have two questions with regards to how the spell Sleep interacts with the Eldritch Invocation Aspect of the Moon (hereafter AotM) for Pact of the Tome Warlocks from XGtE. I did not separate them into two separate question pages because the second is dependent on the answer to the first.
1. Does Sleep override AotM?
The phrasing of the invocation from XGtE pg. 56 is such:
"You no longer need to sleep and can't be forced to sleep by any means." (emphasis mine)
To me this phrasing sounds like it is specifically referring to means such as the Sleep spell, however I have seen it argued in other places that since Sleep's phrasing is:
"Each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends..." PHB pg. 276 (emphasis mine)
and AotM does not make one immune to the unconscious condition, said Warlock would still be affected. However the phrasing of the spell also uses words like "magical slumber" and "the sleeper". So question 1, is a Warlock with AotM affected by the Sleep spell or not?
2. If a Warlock with AotM is not affected by the Sleep spell, does their current HP count towards the total HP targeted by the spell?
The phrasing of the spell, again from PHB pg. 276 is:
"Roll 5d8; the total is how many hit points of creatures this spell can affect. Creatures within 20 feet of a point you choose within range are affected in ascending order of their current hit points (ignoring unconscious creatures.) Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake. Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on the creature with the next lowest hit points..."
If the Warlock with AotM has the lowest current HP, and they can't be affected by the spell, does their current HP still subtract from the total targetable HP? Or would the spell instead just skip them and start with the first creature that can be affected with the lowest current HP?
dnd-5e spells warlock
dnd-5e spells warlock
asked 4 hours ago
Rouge_LuigiRouge_Luigi
34429
asked 4 hours ago
Rouge_LuigiRouge_Luigi
34429
asked 4 hours ago
Rouge_LuigiRouge_Luigi
34429
asked 4 hours ago
Rouge_LuigiRouge_Luigi
34429
asked 4 hours ago
Rouge_LuigiRouge_Luigi
34429
34429
2
$begingroup$
This probably should have been two questions, as they're separable and can be answered independently of each other. Basically, "can the sleep spell put AotM warlock to sleep?" and "do creatures that can't be put to sleep count for the hp total of the sleep spell?"
$endgroup$
– Grosscol
4 hours ago
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
This probably should have been two questions, as they're separable and can be answered independently of each other. Basically, "can the sleep spell put AotM warlock to sleep?" and "do creatures that can't be put to sleep count for the hp total of the sleep spell?"
$endgroup$
– Grosscol
4 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
This probably should have been two questions, as they're separable and can be answered independently of each other. Basically, "can the sleep spell put AotM warlock to sleep?" and "do creatures that can't be put to sleep count for the hp total of the sleep spell?"
$endgroup$
– Grosscol
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
This probably should have been two questions, as they're separable and can be answered independently of each other. Basically, "can the sleep spell put AotM warlock to sleep?" and "do creatures that can't be put to sleep count for the hp total of the sleep spell?"
$endgroup$
– Grosscol
4 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Does Sleep override AotM? No.
Nor does poison, magic dust, or anything. There are no means that will force the character to sleep.
Elves and others immune to the sleep spell, like undead, do not count towards the hp total.
The presence of unaffected creatures does not shield affected ones.
Parsing the sleep spell
Creatures ... are affected in ascending order of their current hit points
Those that can't be affected aren't in this group.
Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until..
Reiteration of creatures in the group to be considered. Those that can't be affected aren't in the group.
Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on the creature with the next lowest hit points..."
Each creature described in this statement is drawn from the set described by the previous one. So only apply the sleep condition and total subtraction on creatures that are affected.
answered 4 hours ago
GrosscolGrosscol
11.8k13576
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For sleep spell HP count, Mike Mearls has a sage advice (January 31, 2016) clarifying that elves don't count towards the HP total because of their sleep immunity, so logically the same has to apply to our warlock. Not how I would rule (spells target immune creatures all the time, they just have no effect), but that's the word from the horse's mouth.
You have hit upon a legitimate inconsistency in the phrasing of the unconscious condition. However, the "fey ancestry" attribute of elves says "magic can’t put you to sleep", and this seems to be universally accepted as applying to the "unconscious" state which the sleep spell effects, including in the reference above. Once again this seems logically to have the same intent as the warlock ability.
answered 2 hours ago
Benjamin OlsonBenjamin Olson
653
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
My question reading this is, "Are immune creatures affected by something they're immune to?" E.g. If a creatures is immune to fire, is it affected by fireball or burning hands? It can certainly be targeted, but is it affected?
$endgroup$
– Grosscol
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@Grosscol I'm right there with you on that one, and don't see clear guidance for a general rule. It seems, based on this sleep example, like it might vary based on whether it is a creature targeting spell or a purely area of effect spell (ie: a fireball is hitting and area and anything within it with fire, it just doesn't hurt some creatures, whereas sleep targets creatures specifically and just fizzles on those who are immune).
$endgroup$
– Benjamin Olson
57 mins ago
$begingroup$
Sleep is weak enough as it is, targeting immune creatures would cripple it
$endgroup$
– András
28 mins ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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active
oldest
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
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active
oldest
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active
oldest
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$begingroup$
Does Sleep override AotM? No.
Nor does poison, magic dust, or anything. There are no means that will force the character to sleep.
Elves and others immune to the sleep spell, like undead, do not count towards the hp total.
The presence of unaffected creatures does not shield affected ones.
Parsing the sleep spell
Creatures ... are affected in ascending order of their current hit points
Those that can't be affected aren't in this group.
Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until..
Reiteration of creatures in the group to be considered. Those that can't be affected aren't in the group.
Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on the creature with the next lowest hit points..."
Each creature described in this statement is drawn from the set described by the previous one. So only apply the sleep condition and total subtraction on creatures that are affected.
answered 4 hours ago
GrosscolGrosscol
11.8k13576
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Does Sleep override AotM? No.
Nor does poison, magic dust, or anything. There are no means that will force the character to sleep.
Elves and others immune to the sleep spell, like undead, do not count towards the hp total.
The presence of unaffected creatures does not shield affected ones.
Parsing the sleep spell
Creatures ... are affected in ascending order of their current hit points
Those that can't be affected aren't in this group.
Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until..
Reiteration of creatures in the group to be considered. Those that can't be affected aren't in the group.
Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on the creature with the next lowest hit points..."
Each creature described in this statement is drawn from the set described by the previous one. So only apply the sleep condition and total subtraction on creatures that are affected.
answered 4 hours ago
GrosscolGrosscol
11.8k13576
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Does Sleep override AotM? No.
Nor does poison, magic dust, or anything. There are no means that will force the character to sleep.
Elves and others immune to the sleep spell, like undead, do not count towards the hp total.
The presence of unaffected creatures does not shield affected ones.
Parsing the sleep spell
Creatures ... are affected in ascending order of their current hit points
Those that can't be affected aren't in this group.
Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until..
Reiteration of creatures in the group to be considered. Those that can't be affected aren't in the group.
Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on the creature with the next lowest hit points..."
Each creature described in this statement is drawn from the set described by the previous one. So only apply the sleep condition and total subtraction on creatures that are affected.
answered 4 hours ago
GrosscolGrosscol
11.8k13576
$endgroup$
Does Sleep override AotM? No.
Nor does poison, magic dust, or anything. There are no means that will force the character to sleep.
Elves and others immune to the sleep spell, like undead, do not count towards the hp total.
The presence of unaffected creatures does not shield affected ones.
Parsing the sleep spell
Creatures ... are affected in ascending order of their current hit points
Those that can't be affected aren't in this group.
Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until..
Reiteration of creatures in the group to be considered. Those that can't be affected aren't in the group.
Subtract each creature's hit points from the total before moving on the creature with the next lowest hit points..."
Each creature described in this statement is drawn from the set described by the previous one. So only apply the sleep condition and total subtraction on creatures that are affected.
answered 4 hours ago
GrosscolGrosscol
11.8k13576
edited 4 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
GrosscolGrosscol
11.8k13576
answered 4 hours ago
GrosscolGrosscol
11.8k13576
answered 4 hours ago
GrosscolGrosscol
11.8k13576
11.8k13576
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For sleep spell HP count, Mike Mearls has a sage advice (January 31, 2016) clarifying that elves don't count towards the HP total because of their sleep immunity, so logically the same has to apply to our warlock. Not how I would rule (spells target immune creatures all the time, they just have no effect), but that's the word from the horse's mouth.
You have hit upon a legitimate inconsistency in the phrasing of the unconscious condition. However, the "fey ancestry" attribute of elves says "magic can’t put you to sleep", and this seems to be universally accepted as applying to the "unconscious" state which the sleep spell effects, including in the reference above. Once again this seems logically to have the same intent as the warlock ability.
answered 2 hours ago
Benjamin OlsonBenjamin Olson
653
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
My question reading this is, "Are immune creatures affected by something they're immune to?" E.g. If a creatures is immune to fire, is it affected by fireball or burning hands? It can certainly be targeted, but is it affected?
$endgroup$
– Grosscol
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@Grosscol I'm right there with you on that one, and don't see clear guidance for a general rule. It seems, based on this sleep example, like it might vary based on whether it is a creature targeting spell or a purely area of effect spell (ie: a fireball is hitting and area and anything within it with fire, it just doesn't hurt some creatures, whereas sleep targets creatures specifically and just fizzles on those who are immune).
$endgroup$
– Benjamin Olson
57 mins ago
$begingroup$
Sleep is weak enough as it is, targeting immune creatures would cripple it
$endgroup$
– András
28 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For sleep spell HP count, Mike Mearls has a sage advice (January 31, 2016) clarifying that elves don't count towards the HP total because of their sleep immunity, so logically the same has to apply to our warlock. Not how I would rule (spells target immune creatures all the time, they just have no effect), but that's the word from the horse's mouth.
You have hit upon a legitimate inconsistency in the phrasing of the unconscious condition. However, the "fey ancestry" attribute of elves says "magic can’t put you to sleep", and this seems to be universally accepted as applying to the "unconscious" state which the sleep spell effects, including in the reference above. Once again this seems logically to have the same intent as the warlock ability.
answered 2 hours ago
Benjamin OlsonBenjamin Olson
653
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
My question reading this is, "Are immune creatures affected by something they're immune to?" E.g. If a creatures is immune to fire, is it affected by fireball or burning hands? It can certainly be targeted, but is it affected?
$endgroup$
– Grosscol
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@Grosscol I'm right there with you on that one, and don't see clear guidance for a general rule. It seems, based on this sleep example, like it might vary based on whether it is a creature targeting spell or a purely area of effect spell (ie: a fireball is hitting and area and anything within it with fire, it just doesn't hurt some creatures, whereas sleep targets creatures specifically and just fizzles on those who are immune).
$endgroup$
– Benjamin Olson
57 mins ago
$begingroup$
Sleep is weak enough as it is, targeting immune creatures would cripple it
$endgroup$
– András
28 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For sleep spell HP count, Mike Mearls has a sage advice (January 31, 2016) clarifying that elves don't count towards the HP total because of their sleep immunity, so logically the same has to apply to our warlock. Not how I would rule (spells target immune creatures all the time, they just have no effect), but that's the word from the horse's mouth.
You have hit upon a legitimate inconsistency in the phrasing of the unconscious condition. However, the "fey ancestry" attribute of elves says "magic can’t put you to sleep", and this seems to be universally accepted as applying to the "unconscious" state which the sleep spell effects, including in the reference above. Once again this seems logically to have the same intent as the warlock ability.
answered 2 hours ago
Benjamin OlsonBenjamin Olson
653
$endgroup$
For sleep spell HP count, Mike Mearls has a sage advice (January 31, 2016) clarifying that elves don't count towards the HP total because of their sleep immunity, so logically the same has to apply to our warlock. Not how I would rule (spells target immune creatures all the time, they just have no effect), but that's the word from the horse's mouth.
You have hit upon a legitimate inconsistency in the phrasing of the unconscious condition. However, the "fey ancestry" attribute of elves says "magic can’t put you to sleep", and this seems to be universally accepted as applying to the "unconscious" state which the sleep spell effects, including in the reference above. Once again this seems logically to have the same intent as the warlock ability.
answered 2 hours ago
Benjamin OlsonBenjamin Olson
653
answered 2 hours ago
Benjamin OlsonBenjamin Olson
653
answered 2 hours ago
Benjamin OlsonBenjamin Olson
653
answered 2 hours ago
Benjamin OlsonBenjamin Olson
653
653
$begingroup$
My question reading this is, "Are immune creatures affected by something they're immune to?" E.g. If a creatures is immune to fire, is it affected by fireball or burning hands? It can certainly be targeted, but is it affected?
$endgroup$
– Grosscol
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@Grosscol I'm right there with you on that one, and don't see clear guidance for a general rule. It seems, based on this sleep example, like it might vary based on whether it is a creature targeting spell or a purely area of effect spell (ie: a fireball is hitting and area and anything within it with fire, it just doesn't hurt some creatures, whereas sleep targets creatures specifically and just fizzles on those who are immune).
$endgroup$
– Benjamin Olson
57 mins ago
$begingroup$
Sleep is weak enough as it is, targeting immune creatures would cripple it
$endgroup$
– András
28 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
My question reading this is, "Are immune creatures affected by something they're immune to?" E.g. If a creatures is immune to fire, is it affected by fireball or burning hands? It can certainly be targeted, but is it affected?
$endgroup$
– Grosscol
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@Grosscol I'm right there with you on that one, and don't see clear guidance for a general rule. It seems, based on this sleep example, like it might vary based on whether it is a creature targeting spell or a purely area of effect spell (ie: a fireball is hitting and area and anything within it with fire, it just doesn't hurt some creatures, whereas sleep targets creatures specifically and just fizzles on those who are immune).
$endgroup$
– Benjamin Olson
57 mins ago
$begingroup$
Sleep is weak enough as it is, targeting immune creatures would cripple it
$endgroup$
– András
28 mins ago
$begingroup$
My question reading this is, "Are immune creatures affected by something they're immune to?" E.g. If a creatures is immune to fire, is it affected by fireball or burning hands? It can certainly be targeted, but is it affected?
$endgroup$
– Grosscol
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
My question reading this is, "Are immune creatures affected by something they're immune to?" E.g. If a creatures is immune to fire, is it affected by fireball or burning hands? It can certainly be targeted, but is it affected?
$endgroup$
– Grosscol
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@Grosscol I'm right there with you on that one, and don't see clear guidance for a general rule. It seems, based on this sleep example, like it might vary based on whether it is a creature targeting spell or a purely area of effect spell (ie: a fireball is hitting and area and anything within it with fire, it just doesn't hurt some creatures, whereas sleep targets creatures specifically and just fizzles on those who are immune).
$endgroup$
– Benjamin Olson
57 mins ago
$begingroup$
@Grosscol I'm right there with you on that one, and don't see clear guidance for a general rule. It seems, based on this sleep example, like it might vary based on whether it is a creature targeting spell or a purely area of effect spell (ie: a fireball is hitting and area and anything within it with fire, it just doesn't hurt some creatures, whereas sleep targets creatures specifically and just fizzles on those who are immune).
$endgroup$
– Benjamin Olson
57 mins ago
$begingroup$
Sleep is weak enough as it is, targeting immune creatures would cripple it
$endgroup$
– András
28 mins ago
$begingroup$
Sleep is weak enough as it is, targeting immune creatures would cripple it
$endgroup$
– András
28 mins ago
add a comment |
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This probably should have been two questions, as they're separable and can be answered independently of each other. Basically, "can the sleep spell put AotM warlock to sleep?" and "do creatures that can't be put to sleep count for the hp total of the sleep spell?"
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– Grosscol
4 hours ago