Why Third 'Reich'? Why is 'reich' not translated when 'third' is? What is the English synonym of reich?
Why is Nazi-Germany commonly referred to as "The Third Reich" in English? Why is reich not translated when Dritten ("third") is?
And what is the English synonym of reich? Realm?
Austria (Republik Österreich), Norway (Kongeriket Norge) and Sweden (Konungariket Sverige) all have reich (or the Norwegian/Swedish corresponding etymology related word) in their name and they all have English translations of their name.
idioms translation german
New contributor
|
show 16 more comments
Why is Nazi-Germany commonly referred to as "The Third Reich" in English? Why is reich not translated when Dritten ("third") is?
And what is the English synonym of reich? Realm?
Austria (Republik Österreich), Norway (Kongeriket Norge) and Sweden (Konungariket Sverige) all have reich (or the Norwegian/Swedish corresponding etymology related word) in their name and they all have English translations of their name.
idioms translation german
New contributor
8
'Why' is a difficult question in general. It could be because that's just how one English journalist decided to do it.
– Mitch
Feb 16 at 16:24
49
You’ve kind of answered your own question, I suspect: Reich is not that easy to translate into English. It means a kingdom, a realm, an empire, a state, a nation… there isn’t really a good, existing word in English that captures its meaning fully, so at some point, people just borrowed the German word. ‘Third’, on the other hand, is trivial to translate, and there’s little reason not to.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Feb 16 at 16:27
20
Why is Soviet not translated?
– michael.hor257k
Feb 16 at 18:33
36
I don't know the name for this phenomenon, but it's not uncommon for loanwoads to have a narrower meaning in English than they do in their source language. A similar example is salsa, which just means "sauce" in Spanish, but in English refers to specific kinds of sauces that originate from the Spanish-speaking world.
– Justin Lardinois
Feb 16 at 22:50
8
Why are other German words, like Kaiser and Fuhrer, not translated?
– jamesqf
Feb 17 at 4:14
|
show 16 more comments
Why is Nazi-Germany commonly referred to as "The Third Reich" in English? Why is reich not translated when Dritten ("third") is?
And what is the English synonym of reich? Realm?
Austria (Republik Österreich), Norway (Kongeriket Norge) and Sweden (Konungariket Sverige) all have reich (or the Norwegian/Swedish corresponding etymology related word) in their name and they all have English translations of their name.
idioms translation german
New contributor
Why is Nazi-Germany commonly referred to as "The Third Reich" in English? Why is reich not translated when Dritten ("third") is?
And what is the English synonym of reich? Realm?
Austria (Republik Österreich), Norway (Kongeriket Norge) and Sweden (Konungariket Sverige) all have reich (or the Norwegian/Swedish corresponding etymology related word) in their name and they all have English translations of their name.
idioms translation german
idioms translation german
New contributor
New contributor
edited 13 hours ago
Azor Ahai
3,88521434
3,88521434
New contributor
asked Feb 16 at 14:57
EmLiEmLi
464125
464125
New contributor
New contributor
8
'Why' is a difficult question in general. It could be because that's just how one English journalist decided to do it.
– Mitch
Feb 16 at 16:24
49
You’ve kind of answered your own question, I suspect: Reich is not that easy to translate into English. It means a kingdom, a realm, an empire, a state, a nation… there isn’t really a good, existing word in English that captures its meaning fully, so at some point, people just borrowed the German word. ‘Third’, on the other hand, is trivial to translate, and there’s little reason not to.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Feb 16 at 16:27
20
Why is Soviet not translated?
– michael.hor257k
Feb 16 at 18:33
36
I don't know the name for this phenomenon, but it's not uncommon for loanwoads to have a narrower meaning in English than they do in their source language. A similar example is salsa, which just means "sauce" in Spanish, but in English refers to specific kinds of sauces that originate from the Spanish-speaking world.
– Justin Lardinois
Feb 16 at 22:50
8
Why are other German words, like Kaiser and Fuhrer, not translated?
– jamesqf
Feb 17 at 4:14
|
show 16 more comments
8
'Why' is a difficult question in general. It could be because that's just how one English journalist decided to do it.
– Mitch
Feb 16 at 16:24
49
You’ve kind of answered your own question, I suspect: Reich is not that easy to translate into English. It means a kingdom, a realm, an empire, a state, a nation… there isn’t really a good, existing word in English that captures its meaning fully, so at some point, people just borrowed the German word. ‘Third’, on the other hand, is trivial to translate, and there’s little reason not to.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Feb 16 at 16:27
20
Why is Soviet not translated?
– michael.hor257k
Feb 16 at 18:33
36
I don't know the name for this phenomenon, but it's not uncommon for loanwoads to have a narrower meaning in English than they do in their source language. A similar example is salsa, which just means "sauce" in Spanish, but in English refers to specific kinds of sauces that originate from the Spanish-speaking world.
– Justin Lardinois
Feb 16 at 22:50
8
Why are other German words, like Kaiser and Fuhrer, not translated?
– jamesqf
Feb 17 at 4:14
8
8
'Why' is a difficult question in general. It could be because that's just how one English journalist decided to do it.
– Mitch
Feb 16 at 16:24
'Why' is a difficult question in general. It could be because that's just how one English journalist decided to do it.
– Mitch
Feb 16 at 16:24
49
49
You’ve kind of answered your own question, I suspect: Reich is not that easy to translate into English. It means a kingdom, a realm, an empire, a state, a nation… there isn’t really a good, existing word in English that captures its meaning fully, so at some point, people just borrowed the German word. ‘Third’, on the other hand, is trivial to translate, and there’s little reason not to.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Feb 16 at 16:27
You’ve kind of answered your own question, I suspect: Reich is not that easy to translate into English. It means a kingdom, a realm, an empire, a state, a nation… there isn’t really a good, existing word in English that captures its meaning fully, so at some point, people just borrowed the German word. ‘Third’, on the other hand, is trivial to translate, and there’s little reason not to.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Feb 16 at 16:27
20
20
Why is Soviet not translated?
– michael.hor257k
Feb 16 at 18:33
Why is Soviet not translated?
– michael.hor257k
Feb 16 at 18:33
36
36
I don't know the name for this phenomenon, but it's not uncommon for loanwoads to have a narrower meaning in English than they do in their source language. A similar example is salsa, which just means "sauce" in Spanish, but in English refers to specific kinds of sauces that originate from the Spanish-speaking world.
– Justin Lardinois
Feb 16 at 22:50
I don't know the name for this phenomenon, but it's not uncommon for loanwoads to have a narrower meaning in English than they do in their source language. A similar example is salsa, which just means "sauce" in Spanish, but in English refers to specific kinds of sauces that originate from the Spanish-speaking world.
– Justin Lardinois
Feb 16 at 22:50
8
8
Why are other German words, like Kaiser and Fuhrer, not translated?
– jamesqf
Feb 17 at 4:14
Why are other German words, like Kaiser and Fuhrer, not translated?
– jamesqf
Feb 17 at 4:14
|
show 16 more comments
9 Answers
9
active
oldest
votes
Although English historians have defined Reich as being a strictly German concept of sovereign rule, in the German language itself it means "Empire". In English, we speak of the Holy Roman Empire; in German, it is the HRR or "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation".
Wiktionary quotes Busching, who in 1762 explained Reich as a German understanding of "Eminence", from the Latin Regnum, rather than an Empire or a Realm as other cultures would understand it.
One could see it as a word used in English, Russian, Portuguese and many other languages as a designation for any kind of German kingdom, empire or absolutism, similar to how one would address a foreigner according to their origin, e.g. Senor Martinez, Monsieur Aragon.
Compare it to how many cultures, including the Germans, also use the word "Commonwealth" or "Soviet Union", despite the fact that Bavaria had formed its own Union of Soviets, the Räterepublik, during the Weimar Republic.
If you're interested in knowing when the word "Third Reich" came into usage, it is worth noting that during Fascist Germany, the country's official name was Das Deutsche Reich, and in the USA and UK it was usually referred to as Germany, Hitler's Germany, Berlin, Reich or, the most popular term, Nazi Germany.
(Sources: Neville Chamberlain's declaration of war against Germany, headlines about Germany in newspapers like the NY Times or the Times, the Daily Mail's Lord Rothermere)
In Germany itself, the idea of a third Reich stemmed from the 19th century, where it was a popular philosophical theme in literature and theology. Writers like Johannes Schlaf, who wrote "Das Dritte Reich" in 1899, or the German translator of Ibsen's "The Emperor and the Galilean", popularized the idea of the imminent arrival of a thousand years of Christianity (a kind of positive apocalypse), which would follow a third "Reich". And they would quote Paul the Apostle and various saints, to make it clear that the third Reich would follow the heretic lex naturalis and the lex mosaica.
Nazi propagandists exploited this in their articles, making it sound as if the saints had had some sort of epiphany about Hitler and the Nazis.
In other words, the Third Reich began as an abstract idea of a Christian revolution, but was assumed by Nazi writers in order to bolster Hitler's popularity and justify the drastic and bloody decisions that the Fascist government was making.
In one of the earliest examples of the Third Reich being mentioned outside of Germany, Major Strasser in the film Casablanca talks about the Third Reich as if it was just the beginning to a kind of paradisaical future or of a fourth Reich.
After 1945, the term was used exclusively to associate only to the unsuccessful reign of Fascism in Germany, and it ceased as a philosophical or theological idea in German literary circles.
New contributor
9
Also worth mentioning that in German, the British Empire is referred to as the Britisches Reich, or Britisches Weltreich (de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britisches_Weltreich).
– Joe Stevens
2 days ago
9
Also the German word for the nation of France is Frankreich.
– Jim Wrubel
2 days ago
3
When it comes to Frankreich, Britisches Reich, Österreich, Osmanisches Reich, etc., these still refer to the historically political make-up of these countries. Only until relatively recently in modern history has Austria and France stopped being empires. Then again, some countries are still called a "reich" in German if they are so much as a kingdom (Königreich).
– Chris W.
2 days ago
3
Wikipedia article Third Rome also states: "Nazi Germany used the term Drittes Reich (meaning "Third Realm" or "Third Empire"), as successor of the first realm (HRE) and the second realm (the German Empire)". It sounds especially hillarious for Russian-speaking because Russian imperialists used "Third Rome" several centuries before German nazies birthed term "Third Reich"
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
1
@ChrisW. Of course Austria used to be an Archduchy, and a Duchy before, both called "Österreich", long before it became an Empire in 1804.
– sgf
yesterday
|
show 8 more comments
To complement R Mac's answer, Reich entered the English lexicon in this use in the 18th and 19th centuries, so by the time the Third Reich rose in the 1930s, the word would have needed no translation.
Thomas Carlyle, who wrote a history of Friedrich the II of Prussia in 1865, refers to Reich 27 times. The term is applied to both the Holy Roman Empire and to Fredrick the Great's kingdom of Prussia.
The Oxford English Dictionary entry for Reich collects several more examples from 19th century periodicals, principally the Times, including this one from 1852:
Times 6 July 6/4 It was the old court of appeal of the Reich, remarkable in its time, even among other courts, for its majestic slowness of procedure.
So this word would have been readily identified with Germanic centers of power from the medieval period to the present.
Since this word serves principally as a reference, it'd be inaccurate to gloss it as a single word like realm. It's more of a linguistic borrowing, like Khanate, where the form of government and the culture of origin are both bound up within the word. Referring to a non-Mongol/Turkic entity as a Khanate would invite comparison to actual Khanates, just like referring to a non-Germanic entity as a Reich would invite comparison to the HRE/Prussia/Germany (before the 20th century) and to Nazi Germany today.
add a comment |
Interestingly, the "First Reich" is the Holy Roman Empire. So the concept of the "Reich" as understood by speakers of German transcended language and cultural shifts over a very long period of time, from 962 CE through 1945 CE.
You can therefore think of "Reich" as similar to the English "realm" but different. The "Reich" is what German speakers view to be the empire of the German state, with authority derived from a unified "German people" within the empire instead of from a religious deity or a monarchy. As such, a Reich is distinctly German. I assume that since the 1940s every English speaking person on the planet had learned that the word "Reich" essentially means "Realm of Germany", there was never any need to translate it. And translating it would have lost some meaning, since there's no clean way to articulate this concept in English.
2
This is fascinating, but now I'm dying to know what "The Second Reich" is. (???)
– Oldbag
Feb 16 at 19:46
13
@Oldbag The Nazis used the term to mean the 1871-1918 German Empire (Deutsches Reich), from unification until Kaiser Wilhelm abdicated.
– Anyon
Feb 16 at 20:01
8
@RMac For german speakers, a "Reich" does not necessarily mean the "Empire of the german state", it is not that nation specific. For example the British Empire is also a "Reich", the "Britische (Welt)Reich".
– Marcel Krüger
Feb 16 at 23:39
2
@Anyon To finish the point you started, there was no "second" Reich. The Nazis just liked the number three more than two, so applied to retroactively to a period of time that never used "reich" so that they could be the "third" instead of the "second." They were very superstitious about numbers.
– Michael W.
yesterday
The empire of Kaiser Wilhelm's was certainly called a "Reich" of its time, though not actually the "Second Reich". The "Third Reich" took its title from Hitler's ambitions to conquer all of Europe, drawing on conquests of the path to succinctly explain the intent of Germany's WW2 efforts. So the "First Reich" of course wasn't actually called that in its day, either. Also, fun fact, "Reich" does have a Middle English cognate in "riche" or "ryche", meaning kingdom or empire.
– R Mac
yesterday
add a comment |
I think as to why "Reich" was retained is because of a simple matter of productivity and suitability of the word "Reich;" i.e., the economy of the German word itself warrants retention.
"Third Reich" has contexts:
a) It is related to Germany - because of "Reich"
b) It is related to XX century history - because of "Third"
c) It just sounds "cool"
It's just an economy of words: with "Third Reich" we have a lot of contextual information condensed into just two words.
Comparison with another languages
Russian:
As a native Russian speaker, I can inform you that the same is in Russian language: "Das Dritte Reich" is translated as "Третий Рейх"( "Рейх" is transliteration of "Reich")
I don't know how native English speakers can understand "The Third Realm," but for Russian speaking, "Третий Мир," can be easily confused with concept of Third Rome.
Again, it's merely a question of economy.
Two words clearly defined in their historical and geographical context (and "Reich" sounds cool in Russian - and English - too).
Japanese(and Chinese?): Although if we look further on East we can find that in China and Japan translation 第三帝国 is used (but kanji themselves are embodiment of economy, so my "theory of economy of words" still works)
Swedish: Tredje_riket - looks like translation.
Slovak: Tretia ríša Aha! And in Slovak we have an ambiguity! (Altghough I suppose that for most Slovaks it's not a problem to mix German words with ease).
(Please do not take too seriously my hypothesis. I would be glad to entertain contention if I seem to be incorrect).
On the same level of seriousness; wouldn't "Третий Мир" translate as "Third World"?
– TimLymington
2 days ago
Yes. "Третий Мир" today is translation of "le tiers monde". But I suppose that in XIV-XVI it could be understood in another sense: Rome was almost synonymical with Pax Romana and idea of Empire as all. So .. I don't know how Russians of Middle Age could interpret "Третий Мир". Take my words with tons of salt - I'm an historian or linguist.
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
1
I have frankly no idea what you are trying to say with the “Czech” example, which is really Slovak. There is nothing ambiguous about it. For the record, Slovak “ríša” and Czech “říše” are perfectly common native words. (I suppose they originated as Germanic loanwords, but that would have happened centuries ago, nothing to do with the Nazis.) It is used in historic names such as the Roman Empire or the Great Moravian Empire, but also in diverse contexts such as biological kingdom, or phrases such as “in the realm of fantasy”.
– Emil Jeřábek
yesterday
3
As a Swede I can confirm that "rike" is the same word as "Reich". However, with no qualifier (like "third") it's usually used about Sweden and not Germany. I believe that this relates to the monarchy as the Swedish word for "kingdom" is "kungarike".
– Kapten-N
yesterday
1
OK, but the other ones are really obscure. Frege's third realm and something chiliastic that I can't even find anywhere. Normally there is only one widely used meaning.
– Vladimir F
11 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
The use of the German word "Reich" clearly conveys that one is referring to Germany (or at least to a German-speaking country). If one were to replace "Reich" by "Empire" (or a similar English-language alternative), one would have to refer to "The Third German Empire" (or similar), whereas using the German word "Reich" automatically conveys that it is Germany (or another German-speaking country) that is being referred to, thus removing the need for the extra word.
In other words, The Third Reich is more compact than The Third German Empire", while automatically conveying that it is Germany that is being referred to.
add a comment |
Could not some of the usage be based on the Shirer bestseller “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Third_Reich
New contributor
add a comment |
IMHO is is wrong to call Nazi controlled Germany the Third Reich because the Nazis liked to call it the Third Reich, hoping to gain some of the glory associated with that phrase in Germany according to Chris W.'s answer. Of course they never officially changed the name to Third Reich, so Third Reich is also inappropriate because of not being official.
So I think instead that it should be called Germany when describing it as a country and a nation, and Nazi Germany, Nazi controlled Germany, Nazi infested Germany, Nazi contaminated Germany, etc., etc. when describing the Nazi rule of Germany.
Similarly the previous regime should not be called the Weimar Republic or Weimar Germany, because that was a Nazi habit.
The official name of the German state was Deutsches Reich (German Realm/Empire/State/Polity/Country, etc.) from 1871 to 1943, and Grossdeutsches Reich (Greater German Realm/Empire/State/Polity/Country, etc.) from 1943 to 1945. The republic in 1919 took over the bureaucracy and institutions of the previous German Empire of 1871-1918, and the Nazis in turn took over the bureaucracy and institutions of the previous republic in 1933.
There was direct continuity from 1871-1945. So another and third reason not to call Nazi ruled Germany the Third Reich is because Nazi run Germany was actually still the Second Reich. And I am not certain whether, or for how long, or to what degree, the present Federal Republic of Germany was or is considered to be a continuation of the Second Reich. And if the Federal Republic of Germany is not a continuation of the Second Reich that would make it the true Third Reich, and thus calling Nazi Germany the Third Reich would be legitimizing their stealing the term.
In any case the Nazis were jumping the gun by calling their rule the Third Reich.
New contributor
1
The Federal Republic of Germany is officially a Bundesrepublik, not a Reich. I suspect (and hope) that Germany will never again officially call itself a Reich. And I am sure that most Germans today would not appreciate you using that name.
– Peter Shor
13 hours ago
add a comment |
From my point of view, "the third Reich" is a lame or poor translation of "das dritte Reich". It is an half done work and an half badly done one.
A translation with a correct rendering of the pathos of the expression "das dritte Reich" would be "the third German Empire" with the explicit upper case to "German" and "Empire" when it isn't mendatory in English.
The expression "the third Reich" only survived out of lazyness from fast english speaking journalists.
2
The response of most English speakers to "The third German Empire" would be "What were the first two?"
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@PeterShor If I remember correctly, that would be the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations. It's not like the number just came out of nowhere.
– Till
yesterday
@PeterShor HRR and Germany between the Franco-Preussian war and the end of WW1.
– EmLi
yesterday
1st one: Holy Roman Empire (das Heiliges Römisches Reich) // 2nd one: Wikipedia "In a decree following the 1512 Diet of Cologne, the name was changed to the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation"
– daniel Azuelos
yesterday
3
Language is for communication, for which economy is a value, not a blemish. The fact that the term stayed is proof of its success for communicating an idea. Fortunately English is not ruled by an Academy of Language, like Spanish is. So, there is no organization trying to dictate whether any of its natural developments is right or wrong. The only credible judge of a translation is usage.
– mama
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
I am going to suggest a rather simplistic reason for this that has little to do with language : space.
In journalism space is money. You (and your editor) will always try and cram as much as possible into the smallest space they can, generally because more free space means more advertising revenue (a little simplistic, but space=money is they idea here). A single letter can push a line of text onto a new printed line, eating into column inches available elsewhere.
An editor faced with "Dritten Reich" will happily accept "Third" as being shorter than Dritten, not to mention that Dritten conveys no information to the English speaking reader. Reich, on the other hand, has no simple translation (and it's clear from the more informed answers here that even agreeing one would be difficult). So those five letters can stay as they are (from the editor's point of view). Not only does "reich" convey the German connection clearly, but the combination (as noted by @Alex-Yu) does sound "cool".
So it may simply boil down to the constant desire to save space in printed news of the day and the soundbite being a good result.
New contributor
This would be an interesting explanation (after all, news headlines take greater leaps to sound controversial and pithy), but curiously, Third Reich didn't appear in newspapers until after it had ceased to exist. Before that, a few American newspapers used "Reich" from the late 30's onward. Until then, editors used "Germany" or "Nazi Germany", which is about as controversial and pithy as "Third Reich".
– Chris W.
13 hours ago
I'm dubious of your claim that it didn't appear in print until after 1945. It was in current use during the war and was referenced in movies during the war. For example, during Casablanca (1942) the main characters have a brief exchange using the term.
– StephenG
7 hours ago
add a comment |
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9 Answers
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Although English historians have defined Reich as being a strictly German concept of sovereign rule, in the German language itself it means "Empire". In English, we speak of the Holy Roman Empire; in German, it is the HRR or "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation".
Wiktionary quotes Busching, who in 1762 explained Reich as a German understanding of "Eminence", from the Latin Regnum, rather than an Empire or a Realm as other cultures would understand it.
One could see it as a word used in English, Russian, Portuguese and many other languages as a designation for any kind of German kingdom, empire or absolutism, similar to how one would address a foreigner according to their origin, e.g. Senor Martinez, Monsieur Aragon.
Compare it to how many cultures, including the Germans, also use the word "Commonwealth" or "Soviet Union", despite the fact that Bavaria had formed its own Union of Soviets, the Räterepublik, during the Weimar Republic.
If you're interested in knowing when the word "Third Reich" came into usage, it is worth noting that during Fascist Germany, the country's official name was Das Deutsche Reich, and in the USA and UK it was usually referred to as Germany, Hitler's Germany, Berlin, Reich or, the most popular term, Nazi Germany.
(Sources: Neville Chamberlain's declaration of war against Germany, headlines about Germany in newspapers like the NY Times or the Times, the Daily Mail's Lord Rothermere)
In Germany itself, the idea of a third Reich stemmed from the 19th century, where it was a popular philosophical theme in literature and theology. Writers like Johannes Schlaf, who wrote "Das Dritte Reich" in 1899, or the German translator of Ibsen's "The Emperor and the Galilean", popularized the idea of the imminent arrival of a thousand years of Christianity (a kind of positive apocalypse), which would follow a third "Reich". And they would quote Paul the Apostle and various saints, to make it clear that the third Reich would follow the heretic lex naturalis and the lex mosaica.
Nazi propagandists exploited this in their articles, making it sound as if the saints had had some sort of epiphany about Hitler and the Nazis.
In other words, the Third Reich began as an abstract idea of a Christian revolution, but was assumed by Nazi writers in order to bolster Hitler's popularity and justify the drastic and bloody decisions that the Fascist government was making.
In one of the earliest examples of the Third Reich being mentioned outside of Germany, Major Strasser in the film Casablanca talks about the Third Reich as if it was just the beginning to a kind of paradisaical future or of a fourth Reich.
After 1945, the term was used exclusively to associate only to the unsuccessful reign of Fascism in Germany, and it ceased as a philosophical or theological idea in German literary circles.
New contributor
9
Also worth mentioning that in German, the British Empire is referred to as the Britisches Reich, or Britisches Weltreich (de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britisches_Weltreich).
– Joe Stevens
2 days ago
9
Also the German word for the nation of France is Frankreich.
– Jim Wrubel
2 days ago
3
When it comes to Frankreich, Britisches Reich, Österreich, Osmanisches Reich, etc., these still refer to the historically political make-up of these countries. Only until relatively recently in modern history has Austria and France stopped being empires. Then again, some countries are still called a "reich" in German if they are so much as a kingdom (Königreich).
– Chris W.
2 days ago
3
Wikipedia article Third Rome also states: "Nazi Germany used the term Drittes Reich (meaning "Third Realm" or "Third Empire"), as successor of the first realm (HRE) and the second realm (the German Empire)". It sounds especially hillarious for Russian-speaking because Russian imperialists used "Third Rome" several centuries before German nazies birthed term "Third Reich"
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
1
@ChrisW. Of course Austria used to be an Archduchy, and a Duchy before, both called "Österreich", long before it became an Empire in 1804.
– sgf
yesterday
|
show 8 more comments
Although English historians have defined Reich as being a strictly German concept of sovereign rule, in the German language itself it means "Empire". In English, we speak of the Holy Roman Empire; in German, it is the HRR or "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation".
Wiktionary quotes Busching, who in 1762 explained Reich as a German understanding of "Eminence", from the Latin Regnum, rather than an Empire or a Realm as other cultures would understand it.
One could see it as a word used in English, Russian, Portuguese and many other languages as a designation for any kind of German kingdom, empire or absolutism, similar to how one would address a foreigner according to their origin, e.g. Senor Martinez, Monsieur Aragon.
Compare it to how many cultures, including the Germans, also use the word "Commonwealth" or "Soviet Union", despite the fact that Bavaria had formed its own Union of Soviets, the Räterepublik, during the Weimar Republic.
If you're interested in knowing when the word "Third Reich" came into usage, it is worth noting that during Fascist Germany, the country's official name was Das Deutsche Reich, and in the USA and UK it was usually referred to as Germany, Hitler's Germany, Berlin, Reich or, the most popular term, Nazi Germany.
(Sources: Neville Chamberlain's declaration of war against Germany, headlines about Germany in newspapers like the NY Times or the Times, the Daily Mail's Lord Rothermere)
In Germany itself, the idea of a third Reich stemmed from the 19th century, where it was a popular philosophical theme in literature and theology. Writers like Johannes Schlaf, who wrote "Das Dritte Reich" in 1899, or the German translator of Ibsen's "The Emperor and the Galilean", popularized the idea of the imminent arrival of a thousand years of Christianity (a kind of positive apocalypse), which would follow a third "Reich". And they would quote Paul the Apostle and various saints, to make it clear that the third Reich would follow the heretic lex naturalis and the lex mosaica.
Nazi propagandists exploited this in their articles, making it sound as if the saints had had some sort of epiphany about Hitler and the Nazis.
In other words, the Third Reich began as an abstract idea of a Christian revolution, but was assumed by Nazi writers in order to bolster Hitler's popularity and justify the drastic and bloody decisions that the Fascist government was making.
In one of the earliest examples of the Third Reich being mentioned outside of Germany, Major Strasser in the film Casablanca talks about the Third Reich as if it was just the beginning to a kind of paradisaical future or of a fourth Reich.
After 1945, the term was used exclusively to associate only to the unsuccessful reign of Fascism in Germany, and it ceased as a philosophical or theological idea in German literary circles.
New contributor
9
Also worth mentioning that in German, the British Empire is referred to as the Britisches Reich, or Britisches Weltreich (de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britisches_Weltreich).
– Joe Stevens
2 days ago
9
Also the German word for the nation of France is Frankreich.
– Jim Wrubel
2 days ago
3
When it comes to Frankreich, Britisches Reich, Österreich, Osmanisches Reich, etc., these still refer to the historically political make-up of these countries. Only until relatively recently in modern history has Austria and France stopped being empires. Then again, some countries are still called a "reich" in German if they are so much as a kingdom (Königreich).
– Chris W.
2 days ago
3
Wikipedia article Third Rome also states: "Nazi Germany used the term Drittes Reich (meaning "Third Realm" or "Third Empire"), as successor of the first realm (HRE) and the second realm (the German Empire)". It sounds especially hillarious for Russian-speaking because Russian imperialists used "Third Rome" several centuries before German nazies birthed term "Third Reich"
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
1
@ChrisW. Of course Austria used to be an Archduchy, and a Duchy before, both called "Österreich", long before it became an Empire in 1804.
– sgf
yesterday
|
show 8 more comments
Although English historians have defined Reich as being a strictly German concept of sovereign rule, in the German language itself it means "Empire". In English, we speak of the Holy Roman Empire; in German, it is the HRR or "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation".
Wiktionary quotes Busching, who in 1762 explained Reich as a German understanding of "Eminence", from the Latin Regnum, rather than an Empire or a Realm as other cultures would understand it.
One could see it as a word used in English, Russian, Portuguese and many other languages as a designation for any kind of German kingdom, empire or absolutism, similar to how one would address a foreigner according to their origin, e.g. Senor Martinez, Monsieur Aragon.
Compare it to how many cultures, including the Germans, also use the word "Commonwealth" or "Soviet Union", despite the fact that Bavaria had formed its own Union of Soviets, the Räterepublik, during the Weimar Republic.
If you're interested in knowing when the word "Third Reich" came into usage, it is worth noting that during Fascist Germany, the country's official name was Das Deutsche Reich, and in the USA and UK it was usually referred to as Germany, Hitler's Germany, Berlin, Reich or, the most popular term, Nazi Germany.
(Sources: Neville Chamberlain's declaration of war against Germany, headlines about Germany in newspapers like the NY Times or the Times, the Daily Mail's Lord Rothermere)
In Germany itself, the idea of a third Reich stemmed from the 19th century, where it was a popular philosophical theme in literature and theology. Writers like Johannes Schlaf, who wrote "Das Dritte Reich" in 1899, or the German translator of Ibsen's "The Emperor and the Galilean", popularized the idea of the imminent arrival of a thousand years of Christianity (a kind of positive apocalypse), which would follow a third "Reich". And they would quote Paul the Apostle and various saints, to make it clear that the third Reich would follow the heretic lex naturalis and the lex mosaica.
Nazi propagandists exploited this in their articles, making it sound as if the saints had had some sort of epiphany about Hitler and the Nazis.
In other words, the Third Reich began as an abstract idea of a Christian revolution, but was assumed by Nazi writers in order to bolster Hitler's popularity and justify the drastic and bloody decisions that the Fascist government was making.
In one of the earliest examples of the Third Reich being mentioned outside of Germany, Major Strasser in the film Casablanca talks about the Third Reich as if it was just the beginning to a kind of paradisaical future or of a fourth Reich.
After 1945, the term was used exclusively to associate only to the unsuccessful reign of Fascism in Germany, and it ceased as a philosophical or theological idea in German literary circles.
New contributor
Although English historians have defined Reich as being a strictly German concept of sovereign rule, in the German language itself it means "Empire". In English, we speak of the Holy Roman Empire; in German, it is the HRR or "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation".
Wiktionary quotes Busching, who in 1762 explained Reich as a German understanding of "Eminence", from the Latin Regnum, rather than an Empire or a Realm as other cultures would understand it.
One could see it as a word used in English, Russian, Portuguese and many other languages as a designation for any kind of German kingdom, empire or absolutism, similar to how one would address a foreigner according to their origin, e.g. Senor Martinez, Monsieur Aragon.
Compare it to how many cultures, including the Germans, also use the word "Commonwealth" or "Soviet Union", despite the fact that Bavaria had formed its own Union of Soviets, the Räterepublik, during the Weimar Republic.
If you're interested in knowing when the word "Third Reich" came into usage, it is worth noting that during Fascist Germany, the country's official name was Das Deutsche Reich, and in the USA and UK it was usually referred to as Germany, Hitler's Germany, Berlin, Reich or, the most popular term, Nazi Germany.
(Sources: Neville Chamberlain's declaration of war against Germany, headlines about Germany in newspapers like the NY Times or the Times, the Daily Mail's Lord Rothermere)
In Germany itself, the idea of a third Reich stemmed from the 19th century, where it was a popular philosophical theme in literature and theology. Writers like Johannes Schlaf, who wrote "Das Dritte Reich" in 1899, or the German translator of Ibsen's "The Emperor and the Galilean", popularized the idea of the imminent arrival of a thousand years of Christianity (a kind of positive apocalypse), which would follow a third "Reich". And they would quote Paul the Apostle and various saints, to make it clear that the third Reich would follow the heretic lex naturalis and the lex mosaica.
Nazi propagandists exploited this in their articles, making it sound as if the saints had had some sort of epiphany about Hitler and the Nazis.
In other words, the Third Reich began as an abstract idea of a Christian revolution, but was assumed by Nazi writers in order to bolster Hitler's popularity and justify the drastic and bloody decisions that the Fascist government was making.
In one of the earliest examples of the Third Reich being mentioned outside of Germany, Major Strasser in the film Casablanca talks about the Third Reich as if it was just the beginning to a kind of paradisaical future or of a fourth Reich.
After 1945, the term was used exclusively to associate only to the unsuccessful reign of Fascism in Germany, and it ceased as a philosophical or theological idea in German literary circles.
New contributor
New contributor
answered Feb 16 at 19:12
Chris W.Chris W.
75219
75219
New contributor
New contributor
9
Also worth mentioning that in German, the British Empire is referred to as the Britisches Reich, or Britisches Weltreich (de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britisches_Weltreich).
– Joe Stevens
2 days ago
9
Also the German word for the nation of France is Frankreich.
– Jim Wrubel
2 days ago
3
When it comes to Frankreich, Britisches Reich, Österreich, Osmanisches Reich, etc., these still refer to the historically political make-up of these countries. Only until relatively recently in modern history has Austria and France stopped being empires. Then again, some countries are still called a "reich" in German if they are so much as a kingdom (Königreich).
– Chris W.
2 days ago
3
Wikipedia article Third Rome also states: "Nazi Germany used the term Drittes Reich (meaning "Third Realm" or "Third Empire"), as successor of the first realm (HRE) and the second realm (the German Empire)". It sounds especially hillarious for Russian-speaking because Russian imperialists used "Third Rome" several centuries before German nazies birthed term "Third Reich"
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
1
@ChrisW. Of course Austria used to be an Archduchy, and a Duchy before, both called "Österreich", long before it became an Empire in 1804.
– sgf
yesterday
|
show 8 more comments
9
Also worth mentioning that in German, the British Empire is referred to as the Britisches Reich, or Britisches Weltreich (de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britisches_Weltreich).
– Joe Stevens
2 days ago
9
Also the German word for the nation of France is Frankreich.
– Jim Wrubel
2 days ago
3
When it comes to Frankreich, Britisches Reich, Österreich, Osmanisches Reich, etc., these still refer to the historically political make-up of these countries. Only until relatively recently in modern history has Austria and France stopped being empires. Then again, some countries are still called a "reich" in German if they are so much as a kingdom (Königreich).
– Chris W.
2 days ago
3
Wikipedia article Third Rome also states: "Nazi Germany used the term Drittes Reich (meaning "Third Realm" or "Third Empire"), as successor of the first realm (HRE) and the second realm (the German Empire)". It sounds especially hillarious for Russian-speaking because Russian imperialists used "Third Rome" several centuries before German nazies birthed term "Third Reich"
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
1
@ChrisW. Of course Austria used to be an Archduchy, and a Duchy before, both called "Österreich", long before it became an Empire in 1804.
– sgf
yesterday
9
9
Also worth mentioning that in German, the British Empire is referred to as the Britisches Reich, or Britisches Weltreich (de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britisches_Weltreich).
– Joe Stevens
2 days ago
Also worth mentioning that in German, the British Empire is referred to as the Britisches Reich, or Britisches Weltreich (de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britisches_Weltreich).
– Joe Stevens
2 days ago
9
9
Also the German word for the nation of France is Frankreich.
– Jim Wrubel
2 days ago
Also the German word for the nation of France is Frankreich.
– Jim Wrubel
2 days ago
3
3
When it comes to Frankreich, Britisches Reich, Österreich, Osmanisches Reich, etc., these still refer to the historically political make-up of these countries. Only until relatively recently in modern history has Austria and France stopped being empires. Then again, some countries are still called a "reich" in German if they are so much as a kingdom (Königreich).
– Chris W.
2 days ago
When it comes to Frankreich, Britisches Reich, Österreich, Osmanisches Reich, etc., these still refer to the historically political make-up of these countries. Only until relatively recently in modern history has Austria and France stopped being empires. Then again, some countries are still called a "reich" in German if they are so much as a kingdom (Königreich).
– Chris W.
2 days ago
3
3
Wikipedia article Third Rome also states: "Nazi Germany used the term Drittes Reich (meaning "Third Realm" or "Third Empire"), as successor of the first realm (HRE) and the second realm (the German Empire)". It sounds especially hillarious for Russian-speaking because Russian imperialists used "Third Rome" several centuries before German nazies birthed term "Third Reich"
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
Wikipedia article Third Rome also states: "Nazi Germany used the term Drittes Reich (meaning "Third Realm" or "Third Empire"), as successor of the first realm (HRE) and the second realm (the German Empire)". It sounds especially hillarious for Russian-speaking because Russian imperialists used "Third Rome" several centuries before German nazies birthed term "Third Reich"
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
1
1
@ChrisW. Of course Austria used to be an Archduchy, and a Duchy before, both called "Österreich", long before it became an Empire in 1804.
– sgf
yesterday
@ChrisW. Of course Austria used to be an Archduchy, and a Duchy before, both called "Österreich", long before it became an Empire in 1804.
– sgf
yesterday
|
show 8 more comments
To complement R Mac's answer, Reich entered the English lexicon in this use in the 18th and 19th centuries, so by the time the Third Reich rose in the 1930s, the word would have needed no translation.
Thomas Carlyle, who wrote a history of Friedrich the II of Prussia in 1865, refers to Reich 27 times. The term is applied to both the Holy Roman Empire and to Fredrick the Great's kingdom of Prussia.
The Oxford English Dictionary entry for Reich collects several more examples from 19th century periodicals, principally the Times, including this one from 1852:
Times 6 July 6/4 It was the old court of appeal of the Reich, remarkable in its time, even among other courts, for its majestic slowness of procedure.
So this word would have been readily identified with Germanic centers of power from the medieval period to the present.
Since this word serves principally as a reference, it'd be inaccurate to gloss it as a single word like realm. It's more of a linguistic borrowing, like Khanate, where the form of government and the culture of origin are both bound up within the word. Referring to a non-Mongol/Turkic entity as a Khanate would invite comparison to actual Khanates, just like referring to a non-Germanic entity as a Reich would invite comparison to the HRE/Prussia/Germany (before the 20th century) and to Nazi Germany today.
add a comment |
To complement R Mac's answer, Reich entered the English lexicon in this use in the 18th and 19th centuries, so by the time the Third Reich rose in the 1930s, the word would have needed no translation.
Thomas Carlyle, who wrote a history of Friedrich the II of Prussia in 1865, refers to Reich 27 times. The term is applied to both the Holy Roman Empire and to Fredrick the Great's kingdom of Prussia.
The Oxford English Dictionary entry for Reich collects several more examples from 19th century periodicals, principally the Times, including this one from 1852:
Times 6 July 6/4 It was the old court of appeal of the Reich, remarkable in its time, even among other courts, for its majestic slowness of procedure.
So this word would have been readily identified with Germanic centers of power from the medieval period to the present.
Since this word serves principally as a reference, it'd be inaccurate to gloss it as a single word like realm. It's more of a linguistic borrowing, like Khanate, where the form of government and the culture of origin are both bound up within the word. Referring to a non-Mongol/Turkic entity as a Khanate would invite comparison to actual Khanates, just like referring to a non-Germanic entity as a Reich would invite comparison to the HRE/Prussia/Germany (before the 20th century) and to Nazi Germany today.
add a comment |
To complement R Mac's answer, Reich entered the English lexicon in this use in the 18th and 19th centuries, so by the time the Third Reich rose in the 1930s, the word would have needed no translation.
Thomas Carlyle, who wrote a history of Friedrich the II of Prussia in 1865, refers to Reich 27 times. The term is applied to both the Holy Roman Empire and to Fredrick the Great's kingdom of Prussia.
The Oxford English Dictionary entry for Reich collects several more examples from 19th century periodicals, principally the Times, including this one from 1852:
Times 6 July 6/4 It was the old court of appeal of the Reich, remarkable in its time, even among other courts, for its majestic slowness of procedure.
So this word would have been readily identified with Germanic centers of power from the medieval period to the present.
Since this word serves principally as a reference, it'd be inaccurate to gloss it as a single word like realm. It's more of a linguistic borrowing, like Khanate, where the form of government and the culture of origin are both bound up within the word. Referring to a non-Mongol/Turkic entity as a Khanate would invite comparison to actual Khanates, just like referring to a non-Germanic entity as a Reich would invite comparison to the HRE/Prussia/Germany (before the 20th century) and to Nazi Germany today.
To complement R Mac's answer, Reich entered the English lexicon in this use in the 18th and 19th centuries, so by the time the Third Reich rose in the 1930s, the word would have needed no translation.
Thomas Carlyle, who wrote a history of Friedrich the II of Prussia in 1865, refers to Reich 27 times. The term is applied to both the Holy Roman Empire and to Fredrick the Great's kingdom of Prussia.
The Oxford English Dictionary entry for Reich collects several more examples from 19th century periodicals, principally the Times, including this one from 1852:
Times 6 July 6/4 It was the old court of appeal of the Reich, remarkable in its time, even among other courts, for its majestic slowness of procedure.
So this word would have been readily identified with Germanic centers of power from the medieval period to the present.
Since this word serves principally as a reference, it'd be inaccurate to gloss it as a single word like realm. It's more of a linguistic borrowing, like Khanate, where the form of government and the culture of origin are both bound up within the word. Referring to a non-Mongol/Turkic entity as a Khanate would invite comparison to actual Khanates, just like referring to a non-Germanic entity as a Reich would invite comparison to the HRE/Prussia/Germany (before the 20th century) and to Nazi Germany today.
edited 2 days ago
V2Blast
17029
17029
answered Feb 16 at 18:03
TaliesinMerlinTaliesinMerlin
3,887724
3,887724
add a comment |
add a comment |
Interestingly, the "First Reich" is the Holy Roman Empire. So the concept of the "Reich" as understood by speakers of German transcended language and cultural shifts over a very long period of time, from 962 CE through 1945 CE.
You can therefore think of "Reich" as similar to the English "realm" but different. The "Reich" is what German speakers view to be the empire of the German state, with authority derived from a unified "German people" within the empire instead of from a religious deity or a monarchy. As such, a Reich is distinctly German. I assume that since the 1940s every English speaking person on the planet had learned that the word "Reich" essentially means "Realm of Germany", there was never any need to translate it. And translating it would have lost some meaning, since there's no clean way to articulate this concept in English.
2
This is fascinating, but now I'm dying to know what "The Second Reich" is. (???)
– Oldbag
Feb 16 at 19:46
13
@Oldbag The Nazis used the term to mean the 1871-1918 German Empire (Deutsches Reich), from unification until Kaiser Wilhelm abdicated.
– Anyon
Feb 16 at 20:01
8
@RMac For german speakers, a "Reich" does not necessarily mean the "Empire of the german state", it is not that nation specific. For example the British Empire is also a "Reich", the "Britische (Welt)Reich".
– Marcel Krüger
Feb 16 at 23:39
2
@Anyon To finish the point you started, there was no "second" Reich. The Nazis just liked the number three more than two, so applied to retroactively to a period of time that never used "reich" so that they could be the "third" instead of the "second." They were very superstitious about numbers.
– Michael W.
yesterday
The empire of Kaiser Wilhelm's was certainly called a "Reich" of its time, though not actually the "Second Reich". The "Third Reich" took its title from Hitler's ambitions to conquer all of Europe, drawing on conquests of the path to succinctly explain the intent of Germany's WW2 efforts. So the "First Reich" of course wasn't actually called that in its day, either. Also, fun fact, "Reich" does have a Middle English cognate in "riche" or "ryche", meaning kingdom or empire.
– R Mac
yesterday
add a comment |
Interestingly, the "First Reich" is the Holy Roman Empire. So the concept of the "Reich" as understood by speakers of German transcended language and cultural shifts over a very long period of time, from 962 CE through 1945 CE.
You can therefore think of "Reich" as similar to the English "realm" but different. The "Reich" is what German speakers view to be the empire of the German state, with authority derived from a unified "German people" within the empire instead of from a religious deity or a monarchy. As such, a Reich is distinctly German. I assume that since the 1940s every English speaking person on the planet had learned that the word "Reich" essentially means "Realm of Germany", there was never any need to translate it. And translating it would have lost some meaning, since there's no clean way to articulate this concept in English.
2
This is fascinating, but now I'm dying to know what "The Second Reich" is. (???)
– Oldbag
Feb 16 at 19:46
13
@Oldbag The Nazis used the term to mean the 1871-1918 German Empire (Deutsches Reich), from unification until Kaiser Wilhelm abdicated.
– Anyon
Feb 16 at 20:01
8
@RMac For german speakers, a "Reich" does not necessarily mean the "Empire of the german state", it is not that nation specific. For example the British Empire is also a "Reich", the "Britische (Welt)Reich".
– Marcel Krüger
Feb 16 at 23:39
2
@Anyon To finish the point you started, there was no "second" Reich. The Nazis just liked the number three more than two, so applied to retroactively to a period of time that never used "reich" so that they could be the "third" instead of the "second." They were very superstitious about numbers.
– Michael W.
yesterday
The empire of Kaiser Wilhelm's was certainly called a "Reich" of its time, though not actually the "Second Reich". The "Third Reich" took its title from Hitler's ambitions to conquer all of Europe, drawing on conquests of the path to succinctly explain the intent of Germany's WW2 efforts. So the "First Reich" of course wasn't actually called that in its day, either. Also, fun fact, "Reich" does have a Middle English cognate in "riche" or "ryche", meaning kingdom or empire.
– R Mac
yesterday
add a comment |
Interestingly, the "First Reich" is the Holy Roman Empire. So the concept of the "Reich" as understood by speakers of German transcended language and cultural shifts over a very long period of time, from 962 CE through 1945 CE.
You can therefore think of "Reich" as similar to the English "realm" but different. The "Reich" is what German speakers view to be the empire of the German state, with authority derived from a unified "German people" within the empire instead of from a religious deity or a monarchy. As such, a Reich is distinctly German. I assume that since the 1940s every English speaking person on the planet had learned that the word "Reich" essentially means "Realm of Germany", there was never any need to translate it. And translating it would have lost some meaning, since there's no clean way to articulate this concept in English.
Interestingly, the "First Reich" is the Holy Roman Empire. So the concept of the "Reich" as understood by speakers of German transcended language and cultural shifts over a very long period of time, from 962 CE through 1945 CE.
You can therefore think of "Reich" as similar to the English "realm" but different. The "Reich" is what German speakers view to be the empire of the German state, with authority derived from a unified "German people" within the empire instead of from a religious deity or a monarchy. As such, a Reich is distinctly German. I assume that since the 1940s every English speaking person on the planet had learned that the word "Reich" essentially means "Realm of Germany", there was never any need to translate it. And translating it would have lost some meaning, since there's no clean way to articulate this concept in English.
answered Feb 16 at 17:08
R MacR Mac
2,307513
2,307513
2
This is fascinating, but now I'm dying to know what "The Second Reich" is. (???)
– Oldbag
Feb 16 at 19:46
13
@Oldbag The Nazis used the term to mean the 1871-1918 German Empire (Deutsches Reich), from unification until Kaiser Wilhelm abdicated.
– Anyon
Feb 16 at 20:01
8
@RMac For german speakers, a "Reich" does not necessarily mean the "Empire of the german state", it is not that nation specific. For example the British Empire is also a "Reich", the "Britische (Welt)Reich".
– Marcel Krüger
Feb 16 at 23:39
2
@Anyon To finish the point you started, there was no "second" Reich. The Nazis just liked the number three more than two, so applied to retroactively to a period of time that never used "reich" so that they could be the "third" instead of the "second." They were very superstitious about numbers.
– Michael W.
yesterday
The empire of Kaiser Wilhelm's was certainly called a "Reich" of its time, though not actually the "Second Reich". The "Third Reich" took its title from Hitler's ambitions to conquer all of Europe, drawing on conquests of the path to succinctly explain the intent of Germany's WW2 efforts. So the "First Reich" of course wasn't actually called that in its day, either. Also, fun fact, "Reich" does have a Middle English cognate in "riche" or "ryche", meaning kingdom or empire.
– R Mac
yesterday
add a comment |
2
This is fascinating, but now I'm dying to know what "The Second Reich" is. (???)
– Oldbag
Feb 16 at 19:46
13
@Oldbag The Nazis used the term to mean the 1871-1918 German Empire (Deutsches Reich), from unification until Kaiser Wilhelm abdicated.
– Anyon
Feb 16 at 20:01
8
@RMac For german speakers, a "Reich" does not necessarily mean the "Empire of the german state", it is not that nation specific. For example the British Empire is also a "Reich", the "Britische (Welt)Reich".
– Marcel Krüger
Feb 16 at 23:39
2
@Anyon To finish the point you started, there was no "second" Reich. The Nazis just liked the number three more than two, so applied to retroactively to a period of time that never used "reich" so that they could be the "third" instead of the "second." They were very superstitious about numbers.
– Michael W.
yesterday
The empire of Kaiser Wilhelm's was certainly called a "Reich" of its time, though not actually the "Second Reich". The "Third Reich" took its title from Hitler's ambitions to conquer all of Europe, drawing on conquests of the path to succinctly explain the intent of Germany's WW2 efforts. So the "First Reich" of course wasn't actually called that in its day, either. Also, fun fact, "Reich" does have a Middle English cognate in "riche" or "ryche", meaning kingdom or empire.
– R Mac
yesterday
2
2
This is fascinating, but now I'm dying to know what "The Second Reich" is. (???)
– Oldbag
Feb 16 at 19:46
This is fascinating, but now I'm dying to know what "The Second Reich" is. (???)
– Oldbag
Feb 16 at 19:46
13
13
@Oldbag The Nazis used the term to mean the 1871-1918 German Empire (Deutsches Reich), from unification until Kaiser Wilhelm abdicated.
– Anyon
Feb 16 at 20:01
@Oldbag The Nazis used the term to mean the 1871-1918 German Empire (Deutsches Reich), from unification until Kaiser Wilhelm abdicated.
– Anyon
Feb 16 at 20:01
8
8
@RMac For german speakers, a "Reich" does not necessarily mean the "Empire of the german state", it is not that nation specific. For example the British Empire is also a "Reich", the "Britische (Welt)Reich".
– Marcel Krüger
Feb 16 at 23:39
@RMac For german speakers, a "Reich" does not necessarily mean the "Empire of the german state", it is not that nation specific. For example the British Empire is also a "Reich", the "Britische (Welt)Reich".
– Marcel Krüger
Feb 16 at 23:39
2
2
@Anyon To finish the point you started, there was no "second" Reich. The Nazis just liked the number three more than two, so applied to retroactively to a period of time that never used "reich" so that they could be the "third" instead of the "second." They were very superstitious about numbers.
– Michael W.
yesterday
@Anyon To finish the point you started, there was no "second" Reich. The Nazis just liked the number three more than two, so applied to retroactively to a period of time that never used "reich" so that they could be the "third" instead of the "second." They were very superstitious about numbers.
– Michael W.
yesterday
The empire of Kaiser Wilhelm's was certainly called a "Reich" of its time, though not actually the "Second Reich". The "Third Reich" took its title from Hitler's ambitions to conquer all of Europe, drawing on conquests of the path to succinctly explain the intent of Germany's WW2 efforts. So the "First Reich" of course wasn't actually called that in its day, either. Also, fun fact, "Reich" does have a Middle English cognate in "riche" or "ryche", meaning kingdom or empire.
– R Mac
yesterday
The empire of Kaiser Wilhelm's was certainly called a "Reich" of its time, though not actually the "Second Reich". The "Third Reich" took its title from Hitler's ambitions to conquer all of Europe, drawing on conquests of the path to succinctly explain the intent of Germany's WW2 efforts. So the "First Reich" of course wasn't actually called that in its day, either. Also, fun fact, "Reich" does have a Middle English cognate in "riche" or "ryche", meaning kingdom or empire.
– R Mac
yesterday
add a comment |
I think as to why "Reich" was retained is because of a simple matter of productivity and suitability of the word "Reich;" i.e., the economy of the German word itself warrants retention.
"Third Reich" has contexts:
a) It is related to Germany - because of "Reich"
b) It is related to XX century history - because of "Third"
c) It just sounds "cool"
It's just an economy of words: with "Third Reich" we have a lot of contextual information condensed into just two words.
Comparison with another languages
Russian:
As a native Russian speaker, I can inform you that the same is in Russian language: "Das Dritte Reich" is translated as "Третий Рейх"( "Рейх" is transliteration of "Reich")
I don't know how native English speakers can understand "The Third Realm," but for Russian speaking, "Третий Мир," can be easily confused with concept of Third Rome.
Again, it's merely a question of economy.
Two words clearly defined in their historical and geographical context (and "Reich" sounds cool in Russian - and English - too).
Japanese(and Chinese?): Although if we look further on East we can find that in China and Japan translation 第三帝国 is used (but kanji themselves are embodiment of economy, so my "theory of economy of words" still works)
Swedish: Tredje_riket - looks like translation.
Slovak: Tretia ríša Aha! And in Slovak we have an ambiguity! (Altghough I suppose that for most Slovaks it's not a problem to mix German words with ease).
(Please do not take too seriously my hypothesis. I would be glad to entertain contention if I seem to be incorrect).
On the same level of seriousness; wouldn't "Третий Мир" translate as "Third World"?
– TimLymington
2 days ago
Yes. "Третий Мир" today is translation of "le tiers monde". But I suppose that in XIV-XVI it could be understood in another sense: Rome was almost synonymical with Pax Romana and idea of Empire as all. So .. I don't know how Russians of Middle Age could interpret "Третий Мир". Take my words with tons of salt - I'm an historian or linguist.
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
1
I have frankly no idea what you are trying to say with the “Czech” example, which is really Slovak. There is nothing ambiguous about it. For the record, Slovak “ríša” and Czech “říše” are perfectly common native words. (I suppose they originated as Germanic loanwords, but that would have happened centuries ago, nothing to do with the Nazis.) It is used in historic names such as the Roman Empire or the Great Moravian Empire, but also in diverse contexts such as biological kingdom, or phrases such as “in the realm of fantasy”.
– Emil Jeřábek
yesterday
3
As a Swede I can confirm that "rike" is the same word as "Reich". However, with no qualifier (like "third") it's usually used about Sweden and not Germany. I believe that this relates to the monarchy as the Swedish word for "kingdom" is "kungarike".
– Kapten-N
yesterday
1
OK, but the other ones are really obscure. Frege's third realm and something chiliastic that I can't even find anywhere. Normally there is only one widely used meaning.
– Vladimir F
11 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
I think as to why "Reich" was retained is because of a simple matter of productivity and suitability of the word "Reich;" i.e., the economy of the German word itself warrants retention.
"Third Reich" has contexts:
a) It is related to Germany - because of "Reich"
b) It is related to XX century history - because of "Third"
c) It just sounds "cool"
It's just an economy of words: with "Third Reich" we have a lot of contextual information condensed into just two words.
Comparison with another languages
Russian:
As a native Russian speaker, I can inform you that the same is in Russian language: "Das Dritte Reich" is translated as "Третий Рейх"( "Рейх" is transliteration of "Reich")
I don't know how native English speakers can understand "The Third Realm," but for Russian speaking, "Третий Мир," can be easily confused with concept of Third Rome.
Again, it's merely a question of economy.
Two words clearly defined in their historical and geographical context (and "Reich" sounds cool in Russian - and English - too).
Japanese(and Chinese?): Although if we look further on East we can find that in China and Japan translation 第三帝国 is used (but kanji themselves are embodiment of economy, so my "theory of economy of words" still works)
Swedish: Tredje_riket - looks like translation.
Slovak: Tretia ríša Aha! And in Slovak we have an ambiguity! (Altghough I suppose that for most Slovaks it's not a problem to mix German words with ease).
(Please do not take too seriously my hypothesis. I would be glad to entertain contention if I seem to be incorrect).
On the same level of seriousness; wouldn't "Третий Мир" translate as "Third World"?
– TimLymington
2 days ago
Yes. "Третий Мир" today is translation of "le tiers monde". But I suppose that in XIV-XVI it could be understood in another sense: Rome was almost synonymical with Pax Romana and idea of Empire as all. So .. I don't know how Russians of Middle Age could interpret "Третий Мир". Take my words with tons of salt - I'm an historian or linguist.
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
1
I have frankly no idea what you are trying to say with the “Czech” example, which is really Slovak. There is nothing ambiguous about it. For the record, Slovak “ríša” and Czech “říše” are perfectly common native words. (I suppose they originated as Germanic loanwords, but that would have happened centuries ago, nothing to do with the Nazis.) It is used in historic names such as the Roman Empire or the Great Moravian Empire, but also in diverse contexts such as biological kingdom, or phrases such as “in the realm of fantasy”.
– Emil Jeřábek
yesterday
3
As a Swede I can confirm that "rike" is the same word as "Reich". However, with no qualifier (like "third") it's usually used about Sweden and not Germany. I believe that this relates to the monarchy as the Swedish word for "kingdom" is "kungarike".
– Kapten-N
yesterday
1
OK, but the other ones are really obscure. Frege's third realm and something chiliastic that I can't even find anywhere. Normally there is only one widely used meaning.
– Vladimir F
11 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
I think as to why "Reich" was retained is because of a simple matter of productivity and suitability of the word "Reich;" i.e., the economy of the German word itself warrants retention.
"Third Reich" has contexts:
a) It is related to Germany - because of "Reich"
b) It is related to XX century history - because of "Third"
c) It just sounds "cool"
It's just an economy of words: with "Third Reich" we have a lot of contextual information condensed into just two words.
Comparison with another languages
Russian:
As a native Russian speaker, I can inform you that the same is in Russian language: "Das Dritte Reich" is translated as "Третий Рейх"( "Рейх" is transliteration of "Reich")
I don't know how native English speakers can understand "The Third Realm," but for Russian speaking, "Третий Мир," can be easily confused with concept of Third Rome.
Again, it's merely a question of economy.
Two words clearly defined in their historical and geographical context (and "Reich" sounds cool in Russian - and English - too).
Japanese(and Chinese?): Although if we look further on East we can find that in China and Japan translation 第三帝国 is used (but kanji themselves are embodiment of economy, so my "theory of economy of words" still works)
Swedish: Tredje_riket - looks like translation.
Slovak: Tretia ríša Aha! And in Slovak we have an ambiguity! (Altghough I suppose that for most Slovaks it's not a problem to mix German words with ease).
(Please do not take too seriously my hypothesis. I would be glad to entertain contention if I seem to be incorrect).
I think as to why "Reich" was retained is because of a simple matter of productivity and suitability of the word "Reich;" i.e., the economy of the German word itself warrants retention.
"Third Reich" has contexts:
a) It is related to Germany - because of "Reich"
b) It is related to XX century history - because of "Third"
c) It just sounds "cool"
It's just an economy of words: with "Third Reich" we have a lot of contextual information condensed into just two words.
Comparison with another languages
Russian:
As a native Russian speaker, I can inform you that the same is in Russian language: "Das Dritte Reich" is translated as "Третий Рейх"( "Рейх" is transliteration of "Reich")
I don't know how native English speakers can understand "The Third Realm," but for Russian speaking, "Третий Мир," can be easily confused with concept of Third Rome.
Again, it's merely a question of economy.
Two words clearly defined in their historical and geographical context (and "Reich" sounds cool in Russian - and English - too).
Japanese(and Chinese?): Although if we look further on East we can find that in China and Japan translation 第三帝国 is used (but kanji themselves are embodiment of economy, so my "theory of economy of words" still works)
Swedish: Tredje_riket - looks like translation.
Slovak: Tretia ríša Aha! And in Slovak we have an ambiguity! (Altghough I suppose that for most Slovaks it's not a problem to mix German words with ease).
(Please do not take too seriously my hypothesis. I would be glad to entertain contention if I seem to be incorrect).
edited yesterday
Emil Jeřábek
1034
1034
answered 2 days ago
Alex YuAlex Yu
1546
1546
On the same level of seriousness; wouldn't "Третий Мир" translate as "Third World"?
– TimLymington
2 days ago
Yes. "Третий Мир" today is translation of "le tiers monde". But I suppose that in XIV-XVI it could be understood in another sense: Rome was almost synonymical with Pax Romana and idea of Empire as all. So .. I don't know how Russians of Middle Age could interpret "Третий Мир". Take my words with tons of salt - I'm an historian or linguist.
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
1
I have frankly no idea what you are trying to say with the “Czech” example, which is really Slovak. There is nothing ambiguous about it. For the record, Slovak “ríša” and Czech “říše” are perfectly common native words. (I suppose they originated as Germanic loanwords, but that would have happened centuries ago, nothing to do with the Nazis.) It is used in historic names such as the Roman Empire or the Great Moravian Empire, but also in diverse contexts such as biological kingdom, or phrases such as “in the realm of fantasy”.
– Emil Jeřábek
yesterday
3
As a Swede I can confirm that "rike" is the same word as "Reich". However, with no qualifier (like "third") it's usually used about Sweden and not Germany. I believe that this relates to the monarchy as the Swedish word for "kingdom" is "kungarike".
– Kapten-N
yesterday
1
OK, but the other ones are really obscure. Frege's third realm and something chiliastic that I can't even find anywhere. Normally there is only one widely used meaning.
– Vladimir F
11 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
On the same level of seriousness; wouldn't "Третий Мир" translate as "Third World"?
– TimLymington
2 days ago
Yes. "Третий Мир" today is translation of "le tiers monde". But I suppose that in XIV-XVI it could be understood in another sense: Rome was almost synonymical with Pax Romana and idea of Empire as all. So .. I don't know how Russians of Middle Age could interpret "Третий Мир". Take my words with tons of salt - I'm an historian or linguist.
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
1
I have frankly no idea what you are trying to say with the “Czech” example, which is really Slovak. There is nothing ambiguous about it. For the record, Slovak “ríša” and Czech “říše” are perfectly common native words. (I suppose they originated as Germanic loanwords, but that would have happened centuries ago, nothing to do with the Nazis.) It is used in historic names such as the Roman Empire or the Great Moravian Empire, but also in diverse contexts such as biological kingdom, or phrases such as “in the realm of fantasy”.
– Emil Jeřábek
yesterday
3
As a Swede I can confirm that "rike" is the same word as "Reich". However, with no qualifier (like "third") it's usually used about Sweden and not Germany. I believe that this relates to the monarchy as the Swedish word for "kingdom" is "kungarike".
– Kapten-N
yesterday
1
OK, but the other ones are really obscure. Frege's third realm and something chiliastic that I can't even find anywhere. Normally there is only one widely used meaning.
– Vladimir F
11 hours ago
On the same level of seriousness; wouldn't "Третий Мир" translate as "Third World"?
– TimLymington
2 days ago
On the same level of seriousness; wouldn't "Третий Мир" translate as "Third World"?
– TimLymington
2 days ago
Yes. "Третий Мир" today is translation of "le tiers monde". But I suppose that in XIV-XVI it could be understood in another sense: Rome was almost synonymical with Pax Romana and idea of Empire as all. So .. I don't know how Russians of Middle Age could interpret "Третий Мир". Take my words with tons of salt - I'm an historian or linguist.
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
Yes. "Третий Мир" today is translation of "le tiers monde". But I suppose that in XIV-XVI it could be understood in another sense: Rome was almost synonymical with Pax Romana and idea of Empire as all. So .. I don't know how Russians of Middle Age could interpret "Третий Мир". Take my words with tons of salt - I'm an historian or linguist.
– Alex Yu
2 days ago
1
1
I have frankly no idea what you are trying to say with the “Czech” example, which is really Slovak. There is nothing ambiguous about it. For the record, Slovak “ríša” and Czech “říše” are perfectly common native words. (I suppose they originated as Germanic loanwords, but that would have happened centuries ago, nothing to do with the Nazis.) It is used in historic names such as the Roman Empire or the Great Moravian Empire, but also in diverse contexts such as biological kingdom, or phrases such as “in the realm of fantasy”.
– Emil Jeřábek
yesterday
I have frankly no idea what you are trying to say with the “Czech” example, which is really Slovak. There is nothing ambiguous about it. For the record, Slovak “ríša” and Czech “říše” are perfectly common native words. (I suppose they originated as Germanic loanwords, but that would have happened centuries ago, nothing to do with the Nazis.) It is used in historic names such as the Roman Empire or the Great Moravian Empire, but also in diverse contexts such as biological kingdom, or phrases such as “in the realm of fantasy”.
– Emil Jeřábek
yesterday
3
3
As a Swede I can confirm that "rike" is the same word as "Reich". However, with no qualifier (like "third") it's usually used about Sweden and not Germany. I believe that this relates to the monarchy as the Swedish word for "kingdom" is "kungarike".
– Kapten-N
yesterday
As a Swede I can confirm that "rike" is the same word as "Reich". However, with no qualifier (like "third") it's usually used about Sweden and not Germany. I believe that this relates to the monarchy as the Swedish word for "kingdom" is "kungarike".
– Kapten-N
yesterday
1
1
OK, but the other ones are really obscure. Frege's third realm and something chiliastic that I can't even find anywhere. Normally there is only one widely used meaning.
– Vladimir F
11 hours ago
OK, but the other ones are really obscure. Frege's third realm and something chiliastic that I can't even find anywhere. Normally there is only one widely used meaning.
– Vladimir F
11 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
The use of the German word "Reich" clearly conveys that one is referring to Germany (or at least to a German-speaking country). If one were to replace "Reich" by "Empire" (or a similar English-language alternative), one would have to refer to "The Third German Empire" (or similar), whereas using the German word "Reich" automatically conveys that it is Germany (or another German-speaking country) that is being referred to, thus removing the need for the extra word.
In other words, The Third Reich is more compact than The Third German Empire", while automatically conveying that it is Germany that is being referred to.
add a comment |
The use of the German word "Reich" clearly conveys that one is referring to Germany (or at least to a German-speaking country). If one were to replace "Reich" by "Empire" (or a similar English-language alternative), one would have to refer to "The Third German Empire" (or similar), whereas using the German word "Reich" automatically conveys that it is Germany (or another German-speaking country) that is being referred to, thus removing the need for the extra word.
In other words, The Third Reich is more compact than The Third German Empire", while automatically conveying that it is Germany that is being referred to.
add a comment |
The use of the German word "Reich" clearly conveys that one is referring to Germany (or at least to a German-speaking country). If one were to replace "Reich" by "Empire" (or a similar English-language alternative), one would have to refer to "The Third German Empire" (or similar), whereas using the German word "Reich" automatically conveys that it is Germany (or another German-speaking country) that is being referred to, thus removing the need for the extra word.
In other words, The Third Reich is more compact than The Third German Empire", while automatically conveying that it is Germany that is being referred to.
The use of the German word "Reich" clearly conveys that one is referring to Germany (or at least to a German-speaking country). If one were to replace "Reich" by "Empire" (or a similar English-language alternative), one would have to refer to "The Third German Empire" (or similar), whereas using the German word "Reich" automatically conveys that it is Germany (or another German-speaking country) that is being referred to, thus removing the need for the extra word.
In other words, The Third Reich is more compact than The Third German Empire", while automatically conveying that it is Germany that is being referred to.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 12 hours ago
TrevorDTrevorD
10.4k22256
10.4k22256
add a comment |
add a comment |
Could not some of the usage be based on the Shirer bestseller “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Third_Reich
New contributor
add a comment |
Could not some of the usage be based on the Shirer bestseller “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Third_Reich
New contributor
add a comment |
Could not some of the usage be based on the Shirer bestseller “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Third_Reich
New contributor
Could not some of the usage be based on the Shirer bestseller “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Third_Reich
New contributor
New contributor
answered 10 hours ago
Richard J McCutcheon IIRichard J McCutcheon II
1
1
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
IMHO is is wrong to call Nazi controlled Germany the Third Reich because the Nazis liked to call it the Third Reich, hoping to gain some of the glory associated with that phrase in Germany according to Chris W.'s answer. Of course they never officially changed the name to Third Reich, so Third Reich is also inappropriate because of not being official.
So I think instead that it should be called Germany when describing it as a country and a nation, and Nazi Germany, Nazi controlled Germany, Nazi infested Germany, Nazi contaminated Germany, etc., etc. when describing the Nazi rule of Germany.
Similarly the previous regime should not be called the Weimar Republic or Weimar Germany, because that was a Nazi habit.
The official name of the German state was Deutsches Reich (German Realm/Empire/State/Polity/Country, etc.) from 1871 to 1943, and Grossdeutsches Reich (Greater German Realm/Empire/State/Polity/Country, etc.) from 1943 to 1945. The republic in 1919 took over the bureaucracy and institutions of the previous German Empire of 1871-1918, and the Nazis in turn took over the bureaucracy and institutions of the previous republic in 1933.
There was direct continuity from 1871-1945. So another and third reason not to call Nazi ruled Germany the Third Reich is because Nazi run Germany was actually still the Second Reich. And I am not certain whether, or for how long, or to what degree, the present Federal Republic of Germany was or is considered to be a continuation of the Second Reich. And if the Federal Republic of Germany is not a continuation of the Second Reich that would make it the true Third Reich, and thus calling Nazi Germany the Third Reich would be legitimizing their stealing the term.
In any case the Nazis were jumping the gun by calling their rule the Third Reich.
New contributor
1
The Federal Republic of Germany is officially a Bundesrepublik, not a Reich. I suspect (and hope) that Germany will never again officially call itself a Reich. And I am sure that most Germans today would not appreciate you using that name.
– Peter Shor
13 hours ago
add a comment |
IMHO is is wrong to call Nazi controlled Germany the Third Reich because the Nazis liked to call it the Third Reich, hoping to gain some of the glory associated with that phrase in Germany according to Chris W.'s answer. Of course they never officially changed the name to Third Reich, so Third Reich is also inappropriate because of not being official.
So I think instead that it should be called Germany when describing it as a country and a nation, and Nazi Germany, Nazi controlled Germany, Nazi infested Germany, Nazi contaminated Germany, etc., etc. when describing the Nazi rule of Germany.
Similarly the previous regime should not be called the Weimar Republic or Weimar Germany, because that was a Nazi habit.
The official name of the German state was Deutsches Reich (German Realm/Empire/State/Polity/Country, etc.) from 1871 to 1943, and Grossdeutsches Reich (Greater German Realm/Empire/State/Polity/Country, etc.) from 1943 to 1945. The republic in 1919 took over the bureaucracy and institutions of the previous German Empire of 1871-1918, and the Nazis in turn took over the bureaucracy and institutions of the previous republic in 1933.
There was direct continuity from 1871-1945. So another and third reason not to call Nazi ruled Germany the Third Reich is because Nazi run Germany was actually still the Second Reich. And I am not certain whether, or for how long, or to what degree, the present Federal Republic of Germany was or is considered to be a continuation of the Second Reich. And if the Federal Republic of Germany is not a continuation of the Second Reich that would make it the true Third Reich, and thus calling Nazi Germany the Third Reich would be legitimizing their stealing the term.
In any case the Nazis were jumping the gun by calling their rule the Third Reich.
New contributor
1
The Federal Republic of Germany is officially a Bundesrepublik, not a Reich. I suspect (and hope) that Germany will never again officially call itself a Reich. And I am sure that most Germans today would not appreciate you using that name.
– Peter Shor
13 hours ago
add a comment |
IMHO is is wrong to call Nazi controlled Germany the Third Reich because the Nazis liked to call it the Third Reich, hoping to gain some of the glory associated with that phrase in Germany according to Chris W.'s answer. Of course they never officially changed the name to Third Reich, so Third Reich is also inappropriate because of not being official.
So I think instead that it should be called Germany when describing it as a country and a nation, and Nazi Germany, Nazi controlled Germany, Nazi infested Germany, Nazi contaminated Germany, etc., etc. when describing the Nazi rule of Germany.
Similarly the previous regime should not be called the Weimar Republic or Weimar Germany, because that was a Nazi habit.
The official name of the German state was Deutsches Reich (German Realm/Empire/State/Polity/Country, etc.) from 1871 to 1943, and Grossdeutsches Reich (Greater German Realm/Empire/State/Polity/Country, etc.) from 1943 to 1945. The republic in 1919 took over the bureaucracy and institutions of the previous German Empire of 1871-1918, and the Nazis in turn took over the bureaucracy and institutions of the previous republic in 1933.
There was direct continuity from 1871-1945. So another and third reason not to call Nazi ruled Germany the Third Reich is because Nazi run Germany was actually still the Second Reich. And I am not certain whether, or for how long, or to what degree, the present Federal Republic of Germany was or is considered to be a continuation of the Second Reich. And if the Federal Republic of Germany is not a continuation of the Second Reich that would make it the true Third Reich, and thus calling Nazi Germany the Third Reich would be legitimizing their stealing the term.
In any case the Nazis were jumping the gun by calling their rule the Third Reich.
New contributor
IMHO is is wrong to call Nazi controlled Germany the Third Reich because the Nazis liked to call it the Third Reich, hoping to gain some of the glory associated with that phrase in Germany according to Chris W.'s answer. Of course they never officially changed the name to Third Reich, so Third Reich is also inappropriate because of not being official.
So I think instead that it should be called Germany when describing it as a country and a nation, and Nazi Germany, Nazi controlled Germany, Nazi infested Germany, Nazi contaminated Germany, etc., etc. when describing the Nazi rule of Germany.
Similarly the previous regime should not be called the Weimar Republic or Weimar Germany, because that was a Nazi habit.
The official name of the German state was Deutsches Reich (German Realm/Empire/State/Polity/Country, etc.) from 1871 to 1943, and Grossdeutsches Reich (Greater German Realm/Empire/State/Polity/Country, etc.) from 1943 to 1945. The republic in 1919 took over the bureaucracy and institutions of the previous German Empire of 1871-1918, and the Nazis in turn took over the bureaucracy and institutions of the previous republic in 1933.
There was direct continuity from 1871-1945. So another and third reason not to call Nazi ruled Germany the Third Reich is because Nazi run Germany was actually still the Second Reich. And I am not certain whether, or for how long, or to what degree, the present Federal Republic of Germany was or is considered to be a continuation of the Second Reich. And if the Federal Republic of Germany is not a continuation of the Second Reich that would make it the true Third Reich, and thus calling Nazi Germany the Third Reich would be legitimizing their stealing the term.
In any case the Nazis were jumping the gun by calling their rule the Third Reich.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 13 hours ago
M.A. GoldingM.A. Golding
9
9
New contributor
New contributor
1
The Federal Republic of Germany is officially a Bundesrepublik, not a Reich. I suspect (and hope) that Germany will never again officially call itself a Reich. And I am sure that most Germans today would not appreciate you using that name.
– Peter Shor
13 hours ago
add a comment |
1
The Federal Republic of Germany is officially a Bundesrepublik, not a Reich. I suspect (and hope) that Germany will never again officially call itself a Reich. And I am sure that most Germans today would not appreciate you using that name.
– Peter Shor
13 hours ago
1
1
The Federal Republic of Germany is officially a Bundesrepublik, not a Reich. I suspect (and hope) that Germany will never again officially call itself a Reich. And I am sure that most Germans today would not appreciate you using that name.
– Peter Shor
13 hours ago
The Federal Republic of Germany is officially a Bundesrepublik, not a Reich. I suspect (and hope) that Germany will never again officially call itself a Reich. And I am sure that most Germans today would not appreciate you using that name.
– Peter Shor
13 hours ago
add a comment |
From my point of view, "the third Reich" is a lame or poor translation of "das dritte Reich". It is an half done work and an half badly done one.
A translation with a correct rendering of the pathos of the expression "das dritte Reich" would be "the third German Empire" with the explicit upper case to "German" and "Empire" when it isn't mendatory in English.
The expression "the third Reich" only survived out of lazyness from fast english speaking journalists.
2
The response of most English speakers to "The third German Empire" would be "What were the first two?"
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@PeterShor If I remember correctly, that would be the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations. It's not like the number just came out of nowhere.
– Till
yesterday
@PeterShor HRR and Germany between the Franco-Preussian war and the end of WW1.
– EmLi
yesterday
1st one: Holy Roman Empire (das Heiliges Römisches Reich) // 2nd one: Wikipedia "In a decree following the 1512 Diet of Cologne, the name was changed to the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation"
– daniel Azuelos
yesterday
3
Language is for communication, for which economy is a value, not a blemish. The fact that the term stayed is proof of its success for communicating an idea. Fortunately English is not ruled by an Academy of Language, like Spanish is. So, there is no organization trying to dictate whether any of its natural developments is right or wrong. The only credible judge of a translation is usage.
– mama
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
From my point of view, "the third Reich" is a lame or poor translation of "das dritte Reich". It is an half done work and an half badly done one.
A translation with a correct rendering of the pathos of the expression "das dritte Reich" would be "the third German Empire" with the explicit upper case to "German" and "Empire" when it isn't mendatory in English.
The expression "the third Reich" only survived out of lazyness from fast english speaking journalists.
2
The response of most English speakers to "The third German Empire" would be "What were the first two?"
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@PeterShor If I remember correctly, that would be the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations. It's not like the number just came out of nowhere.
– Till
yesterday
@PeterShor HRR and Germany between the Franco-Preussian war and the end of WW1.
– EmLi
yesterday
1st one: Holy Roman Empire (das Heiliges Römisches Reich) // 2nd one: Wikipedia "In a decree following the 1512 Diet of Cologne, the name was changed to the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation"
– daniel Azuelos
yesterday
3
Language is for communication, for which economy is a value, not a blemish. The fact that the term stayed is proof of its success for communicating an idea. Fortunately English is not ruled by an Academy of Language, like Spanish is. So, there is no organization trying to dictate whether any of its natural developments is right or wrong. The only credible judge of a translation is usage.
– mama
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
From my point of view, "the third Reich" is a lame or poor translation of "das dritte Reich". It is an half done work and an half badly done one.
A translation with a correct rendering of the pathos of the expression "das dritte Reich" would be "the third German Empire" with the explicit upper case to "German" and "Empire" when it isn't mendatory in English.
The expression "the third Reich" only survived out of lazyness from fast english speaking journalists.
From my point of view, "the third Reich" is a lame or poor translation of "das dritte Reich". It is an half done work and an half badly done one.
A translation with a correct rendering of the pathos of the expression "das dritte Reich" would be "the third German Empire" with the explicit upper case to "German" and "Empire" when it isn't mendatory in English.
The expression "the third Reich" only survived out of lazyness from fast english speaking journalists.
answered 2 days ago
daniel Azuelosdaniel Azuelos
37018
37018
2
The response of most English speakers to "The third German Empire" would be "What were the first two?"
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@PeterShor If I remember correctly, that would be the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations. It's not like the number just came out of nowhere.
– Till
yesterday
@PeterShor HRR and Germany between the Franco-Preussian war and the end of WW1.
– EmLi
yesterday
1st one: Holy Roman Empire (das Heiliges Römisches Reich) // 2nd one: Wikipedia "In a decree following the 1512 Diet of Cologne, the name was changed to the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation"
– daniel Azuelos
yesterday
3
Language is for communication, for which economy is a value, not a blemish. The fact that the term stayed is proof of its success for communicating an idea. Fortunately English is not ruled by an Academy of Language, like Spanish is. So, there is no organization trying to dictate whether any of its natural developments is right or wrong. The only credible judge of a translation is usage.
– mama
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
2
The response of most English speakers to "The third German Empire" would be "What were the first two?"
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@PeterShor If I remember correctly, that would be the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations. It's not like the number just came out of nowhere.
– Till
yesterday
@PeterShor HRR and Germany between the Franco-Preussian war and the end of WW1.
– EmLi
yesterday
1st one: Holy Roman Empire (das Heiliges Römisches Reich) // 2nd one: Wikipedia "In a decree following the 1512 Diet of Cologne, the name was changed to the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation"
– daniel Azuelos
yesterday
3
Language is for communication, for which economy is a value, not a blemish. The fact that the term stayed is proof of its success for communicating an idea. Fortunately English is not ruled by an Academy of Language, like Spanish is. So, there is no organization trying to dictate whether any of its natural developments is right or wrong. The only credible judge of a translation is usage.
– mama
yesterday
2
2
The response of most English speakers to "The third German Empire" would be "What were the first two?"
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
The response of most English speakers to "The third German Empire" would be "What were the first two?"
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@PeterShor If I remember correctly, that would be the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations. It's not like the number just came out of nowhere.
– Till
yesterday
@PeterShor If I remember correctly, that would be the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations. It's not like the number just came out of nowhere.
– Till
yesterday
@PeterShor HRR and Germany between the Franco-Preussian war and the end of WW1.
– EmLi
yesterday
@PeterShor HRR and Germany between the Franco-Preussian war and the end of WW1.
– EmLi
yesterday
1st one: Holy Roman Empire (das Heiliges Römisches Reich) // 2nd one: Wikipedia "In a decree following the 1512 Diet of Cologne, the name was changed to the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation"
– daniel Azuelos
yesterday
1st one: Holy Roman Empire (das Heiliges Römisches Reich) // 2nd one: Wikipedia "In a decree following the 1512 Diet of Cologne, the name was changed to the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation"
– daniel Azuelos
yesterday
3
3
Language is for communication, for which economy is a value, not a blemish. The fact that the term stayed is proof of its success for communicating an idea. Fortunately English is not ruled by an Academy of Language, like Spanish is. So, there is no organization trying to dictate whether any of its natural developments is right or wrong. The only credible judge of a translation is usage.
– mama
yesterday
Language is for communication, for which economy is a value, not a blemish. The fact that the term stayed is proof of its success for communicating an idea. Fortunately English is not ruled by an Academy of Language, like Spanish is. So, there is no organization trying to dictate whether any of its natural developments is right or wrong. The only credible judge of a translation is usage.
– mama
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
I am going to suggest a rather simplistic reason for this that has little to do with language : space.
In journalism space is money. You (and your editor) will always try and cram as much as possible into the smallest space they can, generally because more free space means more advertising revenue (a little simplistic, but space=money is they idea here). A single letter can push a line of text onto a new printed line, eating into column inches available elsewhere.
An editor faced with "Dritten Reich" will happily accept "Third" as being shorter than Dritten, not to mention that Dritten conveys no information to the English speaking reader. Reich, on the other hand, has no simple translation (and it's clear from the more informed answers here that even agreeing one would be difficult). So those five letters can stay as they are (from the editor's point of view). Not only does "reich" convey the German connection clearly, but the combination (as noted by @Alex-Yu) does sound "cool".
So it may simply boil down to the constant desire to save space in printed news of the day and the soundbite being a good result.
New contributor
This would be an interesting explanation (after all, news headlines take greater leaps to sound controversial and pithy), but curiously, Third Reich didn't appear in newspapers until after it had ceased to exist. Before that, a few American newspapers used "Reich" from the late 30's onward. Until then, editors used "Germany" or "Nazi Germany", which is about as controversial and pithy as "Third Reich".
– Chris W.
13 hours ago
I'm dubious of your claim that it didn't appear in print until after 1945. It was in current use during the war and was referenced in movies during the war. For example, during Casablanca (1942) the main characters have a brief exchange using the term.
– StephenG
7 hours ago
add a comment |
I am going to suggest a rather simplistic reason for this that has little to do with language : space.
In journalism space is money. You (and your editor) will always try and cram as much as possible into the smallest space they can, generally because more free space means more advertising revenue (a little simplistic, but space=money is they idea here). A single letter can push a line of text onto a new printed line, eating into column inches available elsewhere.
An editor faced with "Dritten Reich" will happily accept "Third" as being shorter than Dritten, not to mention that Dritten conveys no information to the English speaking reader. Reich, on the other hand, has no simple translation (and it's clear from the more informed answers here that even agreeing one would be difficult). So those five letters can stay as they are (from the editor's point of view). Not only does "reich" convey the German connection clearly, but the combination (as noted by @Alex-Yu) does sound "cool".
So it may simply boil down to the constant desire to save space in printed news of the day and the soundbite being a good result.
New contributor
This would be an interesting explanation (after all, news headlines take greater leaps to sound controversial and pithy), but curiously, Third Reich didn't appear in newspapers until after it had ceased to exist. Before that, a few American newspapers used "Reich" from the late 30's onward. Until then, editors used "Germany" or "Nazi Germany", which is about as controversial and pithy as "Third Reich".
– Chris W.
13 hours ago
I'm dubious of your claim that it didn't appear in print until after 1945. It was in current use during the war and was referenced in movies during the war. For example, during Casablanca (1942) the main characters have a brief exchange using the term.
– StephenG
7 hours ago
add a comment |
I am going to suggest a rather simplistic reason for this that has little to do with language : space.
In journalism space is money. You (and your editor) will always try and cram as much as possible into the smallest space they can, generally because more free space means more advertising revenue (a little simplistic, but space=money is they idea here). A single letter can push a line of text onto a new printed line, eating into column inches available elsewhere.
An editor faced with "Dritten Reich" will happily accept "Third" as being shorter than Dritten, not to mention that Dritten conveys no information to the English speaking reader. Reich, on the other hand, has no simple translation (and it's clear from the more informed answers here that even agreeing one would be difficult). So those five letters can stay as they are (from the editor's point of view). Not only does "reich" convey the German connection clearly, but the combination (as noted by @Alex-Yu) does sound "cool".
So it may simply boil down to the constant desire to save space in printed news of the day and the soundbite being a good result.
New contributor
I am going to suggest a rather simplistic reason for this that has little to do with language : space.
In journalism space is money. You (and your editor) will always try and cram as much as possible into the smallest space they can, generally because more free space means more advertising revenue (a little simplistic, but space=money is they idea here). A single letter can push a line of text onto a new printed line, eating into column inches available elsewhere.
An editor faced with "Dritten Reich" will happily accept "Third" as being shorter than Dritten, not to mention that Dritten conveys no information to the English speaking reader. Reich, on the other hand, has no simple translation (and it's clear from the more informed answers here that even agreeing one would be difficult). So those five letters can stay as they are (from the editor's point of view). Not only does "reich" convey the German connection clearly, but the combination (as noted by @Alex-Yu) does sound "cool".
So it may simply boil down to the constant desire to save space in printed news of the day and the soundbite being a good result.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
StephenGStephenG
1131
1131
New contributor
New contributor
This would be an interesting explanation (after all, news headlines take greater leaps to sound controversial and pithy), but curiously, Third Reich didn't appear in newspapers until after it had ceased to exist. Before that, a few American newspapers used "Reich" from the late 30's onward. Until then, editors used "Germany" or "Nazi Germany", which is about as controversial and pithy as "Third Reich".
– Chris W.
13 hours ago
I'm dubious of your claim that it didn't appear in print until after 1945. It was in current use during the war and was referenced in movies during the war. For example, during Casablanca (1942) the main characters have a brief exchange using the term.
– StephenG
7 hours ago
add a comment |
This would be an interesting explanation (after all, news headlines take greater leaps to sound controversial and pithy), but curiously, Third Reich didn't appear in newspapers until after it had ceased to exist. Before that, a few American newspapers used "Reich" from the late 30's onward. Until then, editors used "Germany" or "Nazi Germany", which is about as controversial and pithy as "Third Reich".
– Chris W.
13 hours ago
I'm dubious of your claim that it didn't appear in print until after 1945. It was in current use during the war and was referenced in movies during the war. For example, during Casablanca (1942) the main characters have a brief exchange using the term.
– StephenG
7 hours ago
This would be an interesting explanation (after all, news headlines take greater leaps to sound controversial and pithy), but curiously, Third Reich didn't appear in newspapers until after it had ceased to exist. Before that, a few American newspapers used "Reich" from the late 30's onward. Until then, editors used "Germany" or "Nazi Germany", which is about as controversial and pithy as "Third Reich".
– Chris W.
13 hours ago
This would be an interesting explanation (after all, news headlines take greater leaps to sound controversial and pithy), but curiously, Third Reich didn't appear in newspapers until after it had ceased to exist. Before that, a few American newspapers used "Reich" from the late 30's onward. Until then, editors used "Germany" or "Nazi Germany", which is about as controversial and pithy as "Third Reich".
– Chris W.
13 hours ago
I'm dubious of your claim that it didn't appear in print until after 1945. It was in current use during the war and was referenced in movies during the war. For example, during Casablanca (1942) the main characters have a brief exchange using the term.
– StephenG
7 hours ago
I'm dubious of your claim that it didn't appear in print until after 1945. It was in current use during the war and was referenced in movies during the war. For example, during Casablanca (1942) the main characters have a brief exchange using the term.
– StephenG
7 hours ago
add a comment |
EmLi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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8
'Why' is a difficult question in general. It could be because that's just how one English journalist decided to do it.
– Mitch
Feb 16 at 16:24
49
You’ve kind of answered your own question, I suspect: Reich is not that easy to translate into English. It means a kingdom, a realm, an empire, a state, a nation… there isn’t really a good, existing word in English that captures its meaning fully, so at some point, people just borrowed the German word. ‘Third’, on the other hand, is trivial to translate, and there’s little reason not to.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Feb 16 at 16:27
20
Why is Soviet not translated?
– michael.hor257k
Feb 16 at 18:33
36
I don't know the name for this phenomenon, but it's not uncommon for loanwoads to have a narrower meaning in English than they do in their source language. A similar example is salsa, which just means "sauce" in Spanish, but in English refers to specific kinds of sauces that originate from the Spanish-speaking world.
– Justin Lardinois
Feb 16 at 22:50
8
Why are other German words, like Kaiser and Fuhrer, not translated?
– jamesqf
Feb 17 at 4:14