Is Screenshot Time-tracking Common?
I am a freelance developer. When I work on projects for a client I tend to bill to the half-hour, which has been fine. Additionally, I do my best to track each type of thing "research", "coding", "lunch", "break", etc so the client can see an itemized version of my hourly. This seems to bring them some comfort.
Recently, I've had a few clients approach me but ask that I use screenshotting and/or keylogging on my home computer (which is also my work computer). Naturally, this makes me uncomfortable. The client thinks I am lazy. To me,
- the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client
- security implications of installing nanny-software that is effectively a RAT
- the direct implication the client does not trust me
These issues really bother me.
Bringing up my portfolio of satisfied clients (who do not use tracking) does not seem persuasive. If you do not trust me, why would you take the time to hire me? I am not desperate for work.
I have been in the industry a number of years at this point. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I know when hours are "deserved" vs "I overshot this, I guess I'll give them some hours for free".
Is this type of requirement common? Should I just suck it up because it's work? It makes me very uncomfortable. It signals to me a "sweat shop" mentality driven by micromanaging metrics rather than getting good software at an agreed upon price. Do people request a video feed of their mechanic fixing their car? Do they request an itemized hourly report of the mechanic they paid a ton of money for? It seems like this problem is unique to software.
software-industry freelancing
New contributor
add a comment |
I am a freelance developer. When I work on projects for a client I tend to bill to the half-hour, which has been fine. Additionally, I do my best to track each type of thing "research", "coding", "lunch", "break", etc so the client can see an itemized version of my hourly. This seems to bring them some comfort.
Recently, I've had a few clients approach me but ask that I use screenshotting and/or keylogging on my home computer (which is also my work computer). Naturally, this makes me uncomfortable. The client thinks I am lazy. To me,
- the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client
- security implications of installing nanny-software that is effectively a RAT
- the direct implication the client does not trust me
These issues really bother me.
Bringing up my portfolio of satisfied clients (who do not use tracking) does not seem persuasive. If you do not trust me, why would you take the time to hire me? I am not desperate for work.
I have been in the industry a number of years at this point. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I know when hours are "deserved" vs "I overshot this, I guess I'll give them some hours for free".
Is this type of requirement common? Should I just suck it up because it's work? It makes me very uncomfortable. It signals to me a "sweat shop" mentality driven by micromanaging metrics rather than getting good software at an agreed upon price. Do people request a video feed of their mechanic fixing their car? Do they request an itemized hourly report of the mechanic they paid a ton of money for? It seems like this problem is unique to software.
software-industry freelancing
New contributor
9
Are these government, government contractors, or otherwise regulated clients? I know the US Government has the right to show up at any contractor's place of work at any time to audit timecards: a friend who worked from home had an auditor show up at his house for an inspection. He had to show the current open entry corresponded to the engineering work he was doing on his screen. This extends to non-government work done by contractors (due to calculation of overhead).
– user71659
16 hours ago
5
Strongly related: My customer wants me to record a video of how I develop his software product
– Radu Murzea
12 hours ago
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Lilienthal♦
8 hours ago
add a comment |
I am a freelance developer. When I work on projects for a client I tend to bill to the half-hour, which has been fine. Additionally, I do my best to track each type of thing "research", "coding", "lunch", "break", etc so the client can see an itemized version of my hourly. This seems to bring them some comfort.
Recently, I've had a few clients approach me but ask that I use screenshotting and/or keylogging on my home computer (which is also my work computer). Naturally, this makes me uncomfortable. The client thinks I am lazy. To me,
- the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client
- security implications of installing nanny-software that is effectively a RAT
- the direct implication the client does not trust me
These issues really bother me.
Bringing up my portfolio of satisfied clients (who do not use tracking) does not seem persuasive. If you do not trust me, why would you take the time to hire me? I am not desperate for work.
I have been in the industry a number of years at this point. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I know when hours are "deserved" vs "I overshot this, I guess I'll give them some hours for free".
Is this type of requirement common? Should I just suck it up because it's work? It makes me very uncomfortable. It signals to me a "sweat shop" mentality driven by micromanaging metrics rather than getting good software at an agreed upon price. Do people request a video feed of their mechanic fixing their car? Do they request an itemized hourly report of the mechanic they paid a ton of money for? It seems like this problem is unique to software.
software-industry freelancing
New contributor
I am a freelance developer. When I work on projects for a client I tend to bill to the half-hour, which has been fine. Additionally, I do my best to track each type of thing "research", "coding", "lunch", "break", etc so the client can see an itemized version of my hourly. This seems to bring them some comfort.
Recently, I've had a few clients approach me but ask that I use screenshotting and/or keylogging on my home computer (which is also my work computer). Naturally, this makes me uncomfortable. The client thinks I am lazy. To me,
- the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client
- security implications of installing nanny-software that is effectively a RAT
- the direct implication the client does not trust me
These issues really bother me.
Bringing up my portfolio of satisfied clients (who do not use tracking) does not seem persuasive. If you do not trust me, why would you take the time to hire me? I am not desperate for work.
I have been in the industry a number of years at this point. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I know when hours are "deserved" vs "I overshot this, I guess I'll give them some hours for free".
Is this type of requirement common? Should I just suck it up because it's work? It makes me very uncomfortable. It signals to me a "sweat shop" mentality driven by micromanaging metrics rather than getting good software at an agreed upon price. Do people request a video feed of their mechanic fixing their car? Do they request an itemized hourly report of the mechanic they paid a ton of money for? It seems like this problem is unique to software.
software-industry freelancing
software-industry freelancing
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New contributor
edited 7 hours ago
Mister Positive
61.5k33202245
61.5k33202245
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asked 20 hours ago
CL40CL40
303225
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9
Are these government, government contractors, or otherwise regulated clients? I know the US Government has the right to show up at any contractor's place of work at any time to audit timecards: a friend who worked from home had an auditor show up at his house for an inspection. He had to show the current open entry corresponded to the engineering work he was doing on his screen. This extends to non-government work done by contractors (due to calculation of overhead).
– user71659
16 hours ago
5
Strongly related: My customer wants me to record a video of how I develop his software product
– Radu Murzea
12 hours ago
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Lilienthal♦
8 hours ago
add a comment |
9
Are these government, government contractors, or otherwise regulated clients? I know the US Government has the right to show up at any contractor's place of work at any time to audit timecards: a friend who worked from home had an auditor show up at his house for an inspection. He had to show the current open entry corresponded to the engineering work he was doing on his screen. This extends to non-government work done by contractors (due to calculation of overhead).
– user71659
16 hours ago
5
Strongly related: My customer wants me to record a video of how I develop his software product
– Radu Murzea
12 hours ago
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Lilienthal♦
8 hours ago
9
9
Are these government, government contractors, or otherwise regulated clients? I know the US Government has the right to show up at any contractor's place of work at any time to audit timecards: a friend who worked from home had an auditor show up at his house for an inspection. He had to show the current open entry corresponded to the engineering work he was doing on his screen. This extends to non-government work done by contractors (due to calculation of overhead).
– user71659
16 hours ago
Are these government, government contractors, or otherwise regulated clients? I know the US Government has the right to show up at any contractor's place of work at any time to audit timecards: a friend who worked from home had an auditor show up at his house for an inspection. He had to show the current open entry corresponded to the engineering work he was doing on his screen. This extends to non-government work done by contractors (due to calculation of overhead).
– user71659
16 hours ago
5
5
Strongly related: My customer wants me to record a video of how I develop his software product
– Radu Murzea
12 hours ago
Strongly related: My customer wants me to record a video of how I develop his software product
– Radu Murzea
12 hours ago
1
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Lilienthal♦
8 hours ago
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Lilienthal♦
8 hours ago
add a comment |
12 Answers
12
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Is this type of requirement common?
No it isn't. It's also a security issue and a sign of a problematic client. Unless you're desperate for the work I'd just refuse.
The major advantage of freelancing is that you pick your clients, your times and your conditions (these should always be clearly defined and agreed at the outset). If you allow a client to impinge on these you lose part of your advantage and your future negotiating status is lessened.
8
Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.
– joeqwerty
19 hours ago
61
I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.
– emory
17 hours ago
22
I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.
– Jörg W Mittag
16 hours ago
11
@JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.
– Kilisi
16 hours ago
4
@Sentinel you put that in an answer already. A single (else, please name others), does not make such intrusion/spying common.
– rkeet
12 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client
This is why I will not use screen-logging software, and I do not know of a single free-lancer who will allow it on their computer.
You likely signed NDAs with your clients. Installing this software likely breaks the NDA
How to (possibly) salvage this situation - Explain The above reason to them, and suggest other ways to build trust with them. Something like
I can't install software like that because you could inadvertently see what I'm working on for other clients. That's a violation of their trust (and possible NDA), so I can't really budge on that. I have several references XYZ if you're worried about work ethic.
add a comment |
DO NOT LET ANYBODY SPY ON YOUR PROPERTY AND WORK!!
If you work on the clients premises, using their property and licenses then they have every right to keylog and screencapture.
But that's not the case!
I'm afraid you gave them ideas with your too detailed, itemized timesheets.
Why would you even do that?
You give an estimate and once you draw up a contract you name a more accurate amount of time and price.
Once milestones are reached or the job is finished you invoice and bill your tasks / time.
If it's very different to your estimate you better talked about whatever caused the price hike when it occurred and they better agreed to it.
If they insist, thank them for considering to work with you but respectfully decline out of security concerns.
Let me reiterate:
DO NOT LET ANYBODY SPY ON YOUR PROPERTY AND WORK!!
3
with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.
– CL40
19 hours ago
7
Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.
– HonoredMule
17 hours ago
13
If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).
– nvoigt
14 hours ago
1
"a business has no business in requesting timesheets from another business" Say what? It's routine in other industries, construction & lawyers to name but 2. If you challenged a lawyer and asked them for evidence that they'd worked the time they billed; they are required to provide it, or strike it from their bill. Your assertions are demonstrably false.
– UKMonkey
6 hours ago
1
@UKMonkey timesheets are widespread to track employees.INTERNALLY. No business hands this kind of information out to third parties unless required by law or in support of the own company in legal proceedings.They're certainly not part of any invoice I've ever seen! The ACTUAL amount (not the billed) of time spent on a task is btw.a trade secret,reflecting the man hours spent, allowing retracing and guesstimating prices per hour per employee,even profit margins.A client could go window shopping with this figure.OP is not an employee as far as I understood, so not required to provide this info.
– DigitalBlade969
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
This is VERY common.
UpWork requires screenshots for you to have escrow claims. Because of the popularity of UpWork it is safe to say this is a common practice.
The Upwork client installs a program that takes a screenshot every 10 minutes and checks keyboard/mouse activity over each time slot to determine if you really were at the keyboard and approximately how active you were.
Personally I found it unpleasant at first but quickly got used to it. The clients rarely check it. It's mainly just that in the event of a dispute, the escrow mechanisms don't work without the paper trail of activity.
Note: the tracker is optional. If you don't use it then you have little chance of recovering funds as it is required for the escrow dispute resolution process.
2
@user87779 updating to address
– Sentinel
14 hours ago
43
Deleting my Upwork account now.
– Dronz
13 hours ago
3
@user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.
– Sentinel
13 hours ago
31
Did a mechanic really spend 2 days fixing my car? Did the lawyer spend all those billed hours on my case? None of these would allow me to keylog their systems or otherwise track their work.How in the world does this website think this is acceptable?! Though, judging by the extremely low, slave labor like offers on there, it doesn't surprise me. Oh and the fact that they get away with it, doesn't mean it is "VERY" common.Only if freelancers work on client site using client property.Otherwise it's two businesses engaging in contractual work.
– DigitalBlade969
12 hours ago
7
If you delete the sentence "this is VERY common" this answer would be fine.
– Brandin
8 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
Others have given good answers whether or not this is normal (no!), but I wanted to give an example reaction. The tone should be confident, a kind of "take it or leave it" approach (which, IMO, this is):
Hi,
I have been in the industry a number of years. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I am aware of time management and perform as you may expect from a professional.
Asking me to use tracking software gives me the impression that you do not trust me and that won't help the project for either of us. If you want, I can give some testimonials of other clients about how it's like to work with me, but using tracking software has to be a hard no for me.
Please let me know whether you want to continue with this project, [ and here something positive depending on how much you would like this project ].
add a comment |
Dedicated devices
Such a requirement isn't common, but it happens sometimes. One reason for highly monitored environments like this one is security controls, but security goes both ways - they don't want you to do unauthorized things, but you also don't want them to do unauthorized things with your data or, worse, data of your other clients.
This means that if something like this is implemented, it's absolutely incompatible with the notion of "my home computer (which is also my work computer)" - if they do screenshot time tracking, then that must be done on a separate device that's dedicated to their project only, at least while their project is ongoing. E.g. start with a clean wiped machine, set up things for their project (including that time-tracking thing), use that machine only for that project and nothing else, and wipe the machine as soon as the project ends, which is a common part of NDAs if you work with sensitive data of that customer.
If you're working on your home computer that contains data of other customers as well, then you can't meet such a requirement; you'd need to get a separate work machine, and you'd have to evaluate whether what they're paying you is adequate to justify that.
1
While I agree with the general premise of setting up a dedicated device I cannot upvote your answer because you suggest that burden should be placed on the freelancer; I am almost inclined to downvote it. I would have the client pay for the device and pay me hourly for all of the wasted hours of getting myself set up to work on their company device.
– MonkeyZeus
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Your problem around this request is based on your setup. The reason there's a privacy concern is because you haven't split up your personal and work correctly; nor have you split your clients.
By creating a single VM per client; you will at no point have any issue with cross contamination of key log data or personal data.
There are many reasons why doing this is advantageous - such as limiting the impact of malware to your business, accidentally breaking NDA's and as you just found out, meeting strange requests from clients.
Is it common practice? Well, I can't talk about freelancing, but most financial institutions use key loggers to protect themselves; often without the knowledge of the employees. It is worth highlighting that the collection of the data is legal; but the use of any passwords etc is not.
The fact that they're asking for evidence that you're working the timesheet that you submit doesn't seem unreasonable; and if you have a better proposal on how you can present it then you can make a counter offer.
As for the direct implication the client does not trust me; I disagree with this blanket statement. It might be that the person who's doing the outsourcing isn't trusted; or one of many other options; and even if it is true, so what? Would you trust someone's word without any evidence to back it up? It seems actually like they're taking a very reasonable stance by wanting evidence.
You can always respond that you need to be paid in advance before delivery of the goods - which is also very reasonable.
That still doesnt answer other concerns that OP has, it just reduces the risk on his private data. I still wouldnt be comfortable being monitored like that even if you had a seperate computer.
– ayrton clark
8 hours ago
@ayrtonclark updated.
– UKMonkey
8 hours ago
2
I think this is how I would suggest doing it. A VM for each client solves a lot of these weird client specific problems.
– Rich
5 hours ago
1
"A VM for each client" is extremily incomvenient 'cuz you need to duplicate your software and settings and synchronize any changes. Moving things between a VM and the host (e.g from/to your e-mail client) is also problematic. I wouldn't even consider it unless I'm working with things like state secrets -- and even that to rather insure myself (from accidental copying).
– ivan_pozdeev
4 hours ago
1
I mulled over this idea, but the trust factor really bothered me more than most. As some of the other answers have suggested (and it makes sense) this is a client foreshadowing the future. Non-payment, withholding payment to force a new feature, common scummy slave driver tactics. To your point, this however mitigates some of the security risk (modern malware can escape VMs and it would be prudent to guess a professionally developed RAT has no problem doing this either).
– CL40
4 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Speaking to whether or not you should do this, I think you have your answer here.
I am not desperate for work.
One of the primary benefits of being a good freelance developer is the ability to choose your clients and work on your own terms. If you don't feel comfortable with this (and who would blame you), simply decline. Probably not someone you want to work with anyway.
It's important to remember that YOU are in charge of your business and responsible for how you do your work, how much you charge, etc. If you find yourself in a situation where you're struggling for clients or money, then by all means, reevaluate, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.
When done tactfully and with confidence, you will command respect and attract higher quality clients through a willingness to take control, dictate the process, or walk away when the situation calls for it.
add a comment |
I personally would decline because of privacy concerns (both yours and other clients of yours).
However, I would also propose an alternative. I would ask them to provide a similar machine that would have the screenshot tracking thing and that computer could solely be used for work related to the client that requested you install the screenshotting software.
This is certainly a good suggestion. I think I would rather fire the client than have the additional risk of them accusing me of breaking/stealing/etc their hardware. More to the point, mailing laptops back and forth is hairy business.
– CL40
4 hours ago
Definitely not a favourable solution, but short of saying no and turning down business, this is as close as the OP can get to their client's wishes without sacrificing other clients' privacy
– kolsyra
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I have never even heard of this concept, maybe its an Americanism, but in the UK ... never.
However, I did it to myself a long time ago in an attempt to help me fill out my timesheets at the end of the week by installing a program that kept track of what program was active every few seconds. I found that, as a software developer, the 2 programs I used the most by far, and I mean over 50% of the time combined, were Firefox and Microsoft Word.
Word is obvious, all those specs and documents, but Firefox's 2 main websites viewed were StackOverflow and MSDN (3rd FYI was Outlook.. don't you love corporate work environments!)
So my problem quickly became how to tell what I was working on, if a significant amount of my time was spent reading stuff, even though it was work-related. I gave up as it was useless (if fun statistically).
So unless they're just being paranoid that you're working (rather than judging you by results) then tell them you don't use it because its a waste of time.
I don't think this concept is uniquely American (I am American). Many sweat shop sites use this, and I suspect the client I am referring to commonly uses these.
– CL40
4 hours ago
add a comment |
No, this isn't a normal request. And from your own descriptions, I think you can improve your invoicing techniques. Clients don't care about your lunch breaks. All they care about is seeing what you did and how much it cost. Be clear, concise, and imagine you are the client reading the invoice. The goal should be, "Wow, look how much work was done in that little time!". Examples:
Bad: "2.5 hours: fixing bugs, research"
No one wants to pay for bug fixes and research! But they are happy to pay for "updates".
Good: "2.5 hours: updating interfaces, adding low battery indicator, adding flux capacitor monitoring, additional database development"
You don't need a ton of detail, just enough to show you've been busy and the hours are reasonable.
add a comment |
My answer is similar to Peteris's but a bit further.
While being monitored, it's foolish to not treat this workstation as known infected with spyware. It should be in a DMZ on your network (or have its access restricted to egress and nothing else).
Knowing that someone doesn't trust me is annoying--I understand they don't necessarily know I'm trustworthy--but it's still difficult to not find this insulting.
The only way I'd ever agree to a intrusion like this is if the expected pay would more than cover
a) the cost of a workstation dedicated to the task, and
b) the requisite hassle for setting it up as above, and
c) being enough left over to justify the work at all.
Even so, I'd likely consider a VM.
Obviously there are other factors: How much do you need the work? How likely is this client to bring you future work--or refer other appealing clients?
As for how common this is...I've never seen it, but that's my experience.
New contributor
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12 Answers
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12 Answers
12
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active
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active
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Is this type of requirement common?
No it isn't. It's also a security issue and a sign of a problematic client. Unless you're desperate for the work I'd just refuse.
The major advantage of freelancing is that you pick your clients, your times and your conditions (these should always be clearly defined and agreed at the outset). If you allow a client to impinge on these you lose part of your advantage and your future negotiating status is lessened.
8
Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.
– joeqwerty
19 hours ago
61
I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.
– emory
17 hours ago
22
I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.
– Jörg W Mittag
16 hours ago
11
@JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.
– Kilisi
16 hours ago
4
@Sentinel you put that in an answer already. A single (else, please name others), does not make such intrusion/spying common.
– rkeet
12 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Is this type of requirement common?
No it isn't. It's also a security issue and a sign of a problematic client. Unless you're desperate for the work I'd just refuse.
The major advantage of freelancing is that you pick your clients, your times and your conditions (these should always be clearly defined and agreed at the outset). If you allow a client to impinge on these you lose part of your advantage and your future negotiating status is lessened.
8
Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.
– joeqwerty
19 hours ago
61
I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.
– emory
17 hours ago
22
I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.
– Jörg W Mittag
16 hours ago
11
@JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.
– Kilisi
16 hours ago
4
@Sentinel you put that in an answer already. A single (else, please name others), does not make such intrusion/spying common.
– rkeet
12 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Is this type of requirement common?
No it isn't. It's also a security issue and a sign of a problematic client. Unless you're desperate for the work I'd just refuse.
The major advantage of freelancing is that you pick your clients, your times and your conditions (these should always be clearly defined and agreed at the outset). If you allow a client to impinge on these you lose part of your advantage and your future negotiating status is lessened.
Is this type of requirement common?
No it isn't. It's also a security issue and a sign of a problematic client. Unless you're desperate for the work I'd just refuse.
The major advantage of freelancing is that you pick your clients, your times and your conditions (these should always be clearly defined and agreed at the outset). If you allow a client to impinge on these you lose part of your advantage and your future negotiating status is lessened.
edited 19 hours ago
answered 19 hours ago
KilisiKilisi
119k68264457
119k68264457
8
Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.
– joeqwerty
19 hours ago
61
I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.
– emory
17 hours ago
22
I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.
– Jörg W Mittag
16 hours ago
11
@JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.
– Kilisi
16 hours ago
4
@Sentinel you put that in an answer already. A single (else, please name others), does not make such intrusion/spying common.
– rkeet
12 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
8
Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.
– joeqwerty
19 hours ago
61
I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.
– emory
17 hours ago
22
I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.
– Jörg W Mittag
16 hours ago
11
@JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.
– Kilisi
16 hours ago
4
@Sentinel you put that in an answer already. A single (else, please name others), does not make such intrusion/spying common.
– rkeet
12 hours ago
8
8
Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.
– joeqwerty
19 hours ago
Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.
– joeqwerty
19 hours ago
61
61
I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.
– emory
17 hours ago
I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.
– emory
17 hours ago
22
22
I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.
– Jörg W Mittag
16 hours ago
I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.
– Jörg W Mittag
16 hours ago
11
11
@JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.
– Kilisi
16 hours ago
@JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.
– Kilisi
16 hours ago
4
4
@Sentinel you put that in an answer already. A single (else, please name others), does not make such intrusion/spying common.
– rkeet
12 hours ago
@Sentinel you put that in an answer already. A single (else, please name others), does not make such intrusion/spying common.
– rkeet
12 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client
This is why I will not use screen-logging software, and I do not know of a single free-lancer who will allow it on their computer.
You likely signed NDAs with your clients. Installing this software likely breaks the NDA
How to (possibly) salvage this situation - Explain The above reason to them, and suggest other ways to build trust with them. Something like
I can't install software like that because you could inadvertently see what I'm working on for other clients. That's a violation of their trust (and possible NDA), so I can't really budge on that. I have several references XYZ if you're worried about work ethic.
add a comment |
the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client
This is why I will not use screen-logging software, and I do not know of a single free-lancer who will allow it on their computer.
You likely signed NDAs with your clients. Installing this software likely breaks the NDA
How to (possibly) salvage this situation - Explain The above reason to them, and suggest other ways to build trust with them. Something like
I can't install software like that because you could inadvertently see what I'm working on for other clients. That's a violation of their trust (and possible NDA), so I can't really budge on that. I have several references XYZ if you're worried about work ethic.
add a comment |
the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client
This is why I will not use screen-logging software, and I do not know of a single free-lancer who will allow it on their computer.
You likely signed NDAs with your clients. Installing this software likely breaks the NDA
How to (possibly) salvage this situation - Explain The above reason to them, and suggest other ways to build trust with them. Something like
I can't install software like that because you could inadvertently see what I'm working on for other clients. That's a violation of their trust (and possible NDA), so I can't really budge on that. I have several references XYZ if you're worried about work ethic.
the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client
This is why I will not use screen-logging software, and I do not know of a single free-lancer who will allow it on their computer.
You likely signed NDAs with your clients. Installing this software likely breaks the NDA
How to (possibly) salvage this situation - Explain The above reason to them, and suggest other ways to build trust with them. Something like
I can't install software like that because you could inadvertently see what I'm working on for other clients. That's a violation of their trust (and possible NDA), so I can't really budge on that. I have several references XYZ if you're worried about work ethic.
answered 19 hours ago
sevensevenssevensevens
11.1k32741
11.1k32741
add a comment |
add a comment |
DO NOT LET ANYBODY SPY ON YOUR PROPERTY AND WORK!!
If you work on the clients premises, using their property and licenses then they have every right to keylog and screencapture.
But that's not the case!
I'm afraid you gave them ideas with your too detailed, itemized timesheets.
Why would you even do that?
You give an estimate and once you draw up a contract you name a more accurate amount of time and price.
Once milestones are reached or the job is finished you invoice and bill your tasks / time.
If it's very different to your estimate you better talked about whatever caused the price hike when it occurred and they better agreed to it.
If they insist, thank them for considering to work with you but respectfully decline out of security concerns.
Let me reiterate:
DO NOT LET ANYBODY SPY ON YOUR PROPERTY AND WORK!!
3
with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.
– CL40
19 hours ago
7
Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.
– HonoredMule
17 hours ago
13
If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).
– nvoigt
14 hours ago
1
"a business has no business in requesting timesheets from another business" Say what? It's routine in other industries, construction & lawyers to name but 2. If you challenged a lawyer and asked them for evidence that they'd worked the time they billed; they are required to provide it, or strike it from their bill. Your assertions are demonstrably false.
– UKMonkey
6 hours ago
1
@UKMonkey timesheets are widespread to track employees.INTERNALLY. No business hands this kind of information out to third parties unless required by law or in support of the own company in legal proceedings.They're certainly not part of any invoice I've ever seen! The ACTUAL amount (not the billed) of time spent on a task is btw.a trade secret,reflecting the man hours spent, allowing retracing and guesstimating prices per hour per employee,even profit margins.A client could go window shopping with this figure.OP is not an employee as far as I understood, so not required to provide this info.
– DigitalBlade969
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
DO NOT LET ANYBODY SPY ON YOUR PROPERTY AND WORK!!
If you work on the clients premises, using their property and licenses then they have every right to keylog and screencapture.
But that's not the case!
I'm afraid you gave them ideas with your too detailed, itemized timesheets.
Why would you even do that?
You give an estimate and once you draw up a contract you name a more accurate amount of time and price.
Once milestones are reached or the job is finished you invoice and bill your tasks / time.
If it's very different to your estimate you better talked about whatever caused the price hike when it occurred and they better agreed to it.
If they insist, thank them for considering to work with you but respectfully decline out of security concerns.
Let me reiterate:
DO NOT LET ANYBODY SPY ON YOUR PROPERTY AND WORK!!
3
with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.
– CL40
19 hours ago
7
Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.
– HonoredMule
17 hours ago
13
If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).
– nvoigt
14 hours ago
1
"a business has no business in requesting timesheets from another business" Say what? It's routine in other industries, construction & lawyers to name but 2. If you challenged a lawyer and asked them for evidence that they'd worked the time they billed; they are required to provide it, or strike it from their bill. Your assertions are demonstrably false.
– UKMonkey
6 hours ago
1
@UKMonkey timesheets are widespread to track employees.INTERNALLY. No business hands this kind of information out to third parties unless required by law or in support of the own company in legal proceedings.They're certainly not part of any invoice I've ever seen! The ACTUAL amount (not the billed) of time spent on a task is btw.a trade secret,reflecting the man hours spent, allowing retracing and guesstimating prices per hour per employee,even profit margins.A client could go window shopping with this figure.OP is not an employee as far as I understood, so not required to provide this info.
– DigitalBlade969
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
DO NOT LET ANYBODY SPY ON YOUR PROPERTY AND WORK!!
If you work on the clients premises, using their property and licenses then they have every right to keylog and screencapture.
But that's not the case!
I'm afraid you gave them ideas with your too detailed, itemized timesheets.
Why would you even do that?
You give an estimate and once you draw up a contract you name a more accurate amount of time and price.
Once milestones are reached or the job is finished you invoice and bill your tasks / time.
If it's very different to your estimate you better talked about whatever caused the price hike when it occurred and they better agreed to it.
If they insist, thank them for considering to work with you but respectfully decline out of security concerns.
Let me reiterate:
DO NOT LET ANYBODY SPY ON YOUR PROPERTY AND WORK!!
DO NOT LET ANYBODY SPY ON YOUR PROPERTY AND WORK!!
If you work on the clients premises, using their property and licenses then they have every right to keylog and screencapture.
But that's not the case!
I'm afraid you gave them ideas with your too detailed, itemized timesheets.
Why would you even do that?
You give an estimate and once you draw up a contract you name a more accurate amount of time and price.
Once milestones are reached or the job is finished you invoice and bill your tasks / time.
If it's very different to your estimate you better talked about whatever caused the price hike when it occurred and they better agreed to it.
If they insist, thank them for considering to work with you but respectfully decline out of security concerns.
Let me reiterate:
DO NOT LET ANYBODY SPY ON YOUR PROPERTY AND WORK!!
edited 13 hours ago
answered 19 hours ago
DigitalBlade969DigitalBlade969
7,3551928
7,3551928
3
with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.
– CL40
19 hours ago
7
Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.
– HonoredMule
17 hours ago
13
If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).
– nvoigt
14 hours ago
1
"a business has no business in requesting timesheets from another business" Say what? It's routine in other industries, construction & lawyers to name but 2. If you challenged a lawyer and asked them for evidence that they'd worked the time they billed; they are required to provide it, or strike it from their bill. Your assertions are demonstrably false.
– UKMonkey
6 hours ago
1
@UKMonkey timesheets are widespread to track employees.INTERNALLY. No business hands this kind of information out to third parties unless required by law or in support of the own company in legal proceedings.They're certainly not part of any invoice I've ever seen! The ACTUAL amount (not the billed) of time spent on a task is btw.a trade secret,reflecting the man hours spent, allowing retracing and guesstimating prices per hour per employee,even profit margins.A client could go window shopping with this figure.OP is not an employee as far as I understood, so not required to provide this info.
– DigitalBlade969
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
3
with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.
– CL40
19 hours ago
7
Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.
– HonoredMule
17 hours ago
13
If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).
– nvoigt
14 hours ago
1
"a business has no business in requesting timesheets from another business" Say what? It's routine in other industries, construction & lawyers to name but 2. If you challenged a lawyer and asked them for evidence that they'd worked the time they billed; they are required to provide it, or strike it from their bill. Your assertions are demonstrably false.
– UKMonkey
6 hours ago
1
@UKMonkey timesheets are widespread to track employees.INTERNALLY. No business hands this kind of information out to third parties unless required by law or in support of the own company in legal proceedings.They're certainly not part of any invoice I've ever seen! The ACTUAL amount (not the billed) of time spent on a task is btw.a trade secret,reflecting the man hours spent, allowing retracing and guesstimating prices per hour per employee,even profit margins.A client could go window shopping with this figure.OP is not an employee as far as I understood, so not required to provide this info.
– DigitalBlade969
3 hours ago
3
3
with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.
– CL40
19 hours ago
with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.
– CL40
19 hours ago
7
7
Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.
– HonoredMule
17 hours ago
Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.
– HonoredMule
17 hours ago
13
13
If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).
– nvoigt
14 hours ago
If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).
– nvoigt
14 hours ago
1
1
"a business has no business in requesting timesheets from another business" Say what? It's routine in other industries, construction & lawyers to name but 2. If you challenged a lawyer and asked them for evidence that they'd worked the time they billed; they are required to provide it, or strike it from their bill. Your assertions are demonstrably false.
– UKMonkey
6 hours ago
"a business has no business in requesting timesheets from another business" Say what? It's routine in other industries, construction & lawyers to name but 2. If you challenged a lawyer and asked them for evidence that they'd worked the time they billed; they are required to provide it, or strike it from their bill. Your assertions are demonstrably false.
– UKMonkey
6 hours ago
1
1
@UKMonkey timesheets are widespread to track employees.INTERNALLY. No business hands this kind of information out to third parties unless required by law or in support of the own company in legal proceedings.They're certainly not part of any invoice I've ever seen! The ACTUAL amount (not the billed) of time spent on a task is btw.a trade secret,reflecting the man hours spent, allowing retracing and guesstimating prices per hour per employee,even profit margins.A client could go window shopping with this figure.OP is not an employee as far as I understood, so not required to provide this info.
– DigitalBlade969
3 hours ago
@UKMonkey timesheets are widespread to track employees.INTERNALLY. No business hands this kind of information out to third parties unless required by law or in support of the own company in legal proceedings.They're certainly not part of any invoice I've ever seen! The ACTUAL amount (not the billed) of time spent on a task is btw.a trade secret,reflecting the man hours spent, allowing retracing and guesstimating prices per hour per employee,even profit margins.A client could go window shopping with this figure.OP is not an employee as far as I understood, so not required to provide this info.
– DigitalBlade969
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
This is VERY common.
UpWork requires screenshots for you to have escrow claims. Because of the popularity of UpWork it is safe to say this is a common practice.
The Upwork client installs a program that takes a screenshot every 10 minutes and checks keyboard/mouse activity over each time slot to determine if you really were at the keyboard and approximately how active you were.
Personally I found it unpleasant at first but quickly got used to it. The clients rarely check it. It's mainly just that in the event of a dispute, the escrow mechanisms don't work without the paper trail of activity.
Note: the tracker is optional. If you don't use it then you have little chance of recovering funds as it is required for the escrow dispute resolution process.
2
@user87779 updating to address
– Sentinel
14 hours ago
43
Deleting my Upwork account now.
– Dronz
13 hours ago
3
@user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.
– Sentinel
13 hours ago
31
Did a mechanic really spend 2 days fixing my car? Did the lawyer spend all those billed hours on my case? None of these would allow me to keylog their systems or otherwise track their work.How in the world does this website think this is acceptable?! Though, judging by the extremely low, slave labor like offers on there, it doesn't surprise me. Oh and the fact that they get away with it, doesn't mean it is "VERY" common.Only if freelancers work on client site using client property.Otherwise it's two businesses engaging in contractual work.
– DigitalBlade969
12 hours ago
7
If you delete the sentence "this is VERY common" this answer would be fine.
– Brandin
8 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
This is VERY common.
UpWork requires screenshots for you to have escrow claims. Because of the popularity of UpWork it is safe to say this is a common practice.
The Upwork client installs a program that takes a screenshot every 10 minutes and checks keyboard/mouse activity over each time slot to determine if you really were at the keyboard and approximately how active you were.
Personally I found it unpleasant at first but quickly got used to it. The clients rarely check it. It's mainly just that in the event of a dispute, the escrow mechanisms don't work without the paper trail of activity.
Note: the tracker is optional. If you don't use it then you have little chance of recovering funds as it is required for the escrow dispute resolution process.
2
@user87779 updating to address
– Sentinel
14 hours ago
43
Deleting my Upwork account now.
– Dronz
13 hours ago
3
@user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.
– Sentinel
13 hours ago
31
Did a mechanic really spend 2 days fixing my car? Did the lawyer spend all those billed hours on my case? None of these would allow me to keylog their systems or otherwise track their work.How in the world does this website think this is acceptable?! Though, judging by the extremely low, slave labor like offers on there, it doesn't surprise me. Oh and the fact that they get away with it, doesn't mean it is "VERY" common.Only if freelancers work on client site using client property.Otherwise it's two businesses engaging in contractual work.
– DigitalBlade969
12 hours ago
7
If you delete the sentence "this is VERY common" this answer would be fine.
– Brandin
8 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
This is VERY common.
UpWork requires screenshots for you to have escrow claims. Because of the popularity of UpWork it is safe to say this is a common practice.
The Upwork client installs a program that takes a screenshot every 10 minutes and checks keyboard/mouse activity over each time slot to determine if you really were at the keyboard and approximately how active you were.
Personally I found it unpleasant at first but quickly got used to it. The clients rarely check it. It's mainly just that in the event of a dispute, the escrow mechanisms don't work without the paper trail of activity.
Note: the tracker is optional. If you don't use it then you have little chance of recovering funds as it is required for the escrow dispute resolution process.
This is VERY common.
UpWork requires screenshots for you to have escrow claims. Because of the popularity of UpWork it is safe to say this is a common practice.
The Upwork client installs a program that takes a screenshot every 10 minutes and checks keyboard/mouse activity over each time slot to determine if you really were at the keyboard and approximately how active you were.
Personally I found it unpleasant at first but quickly got used to it. The clients rarely check it. It's mainly just that in the event of a dispute, the escrow mechanisms don't work without the paper trail of activity.
Note: the tracker is optional. If you don't use it then you have little chance of recovering funds as it is required for the escrow dispute resolution process.
edited 13 hours ago
answered 14 hours ago
SentinelSentinel
1,8292515
1,8292515
2
@user87779 updating to address
– Sentinel
14 hours ago
43
Deleting my Upwork account now.
– Dronz
13 hours ago
3
@user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.
– Sentinel
13 hours ago
31
Did a mechanic really spend 2 days fixing my car? Did the lawyer spend all those billed hours on my case? None of these would allow me to keylog their systems or otherwise track their work.How in the world does this website think this is acceptable?! Though, judging by the extremely low, slave labor like offers on there, it doesn't surprise me. Oh and the fact that they get away with it, doesn't mean it is "VERY" common.Only if freelancers work on client site using client property.Otherwise it's two businesses engaging in contractual work.
– DigitalBlade969
12 hours ago
7
If you delete the sentence "this is VERY common" this answer would be fine.
– Brandin
8 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
2
@user87779 updating to address
– Sentinel
14 hours ago
43
Deleting my Upwork account now.
– Dronz
13 hours ago
3
@user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.
– Sentinel
13 hours ago
31
Did a mechanic really spend 2 days fixing my car? Did the lawyer spend all those billed hours on my case? None of these would allow me to keylog their systems or otherwise track their work.How in the world does this website think this is acceptable?! Though, judging by the extremely low, slave labor like offers on there, it doesn't surprise me. Oh and the fact that they get away with it, doesn't mean it is "VERY" common.Only if freelancers work on client site using client property.Otherwise it's two businesses engaging in contractual work.
– DigitalBlade969
12 hours ago
7
If you delete the sentence "this is VERY common" this answer would be fine.
– Brandin
8 hours ago
2
2
@user87779 updating to address
– Sentinel
14 hours ago
@user87779 updating to address
– Sentinel
14 hours ago
43
43
Deleting my Upwork account now.
– Dronz
13 hours ago
Deleting my Upwork account now.
– Dronz
13 hours ago
3
3
@user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.
– Sentinel
13 hours ago
@user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.
– Sentinel
13 hours ago
31
31
Did a mechanic really spend 2 days fixing my car? Did the lawyer spend all those billed hours on my case? None of these would allow me to keylog their systems or otherwise track their work.How in the world does this website think this is acceptable?! Though, judging by the extremely low, slave labor like offers on there, it doesn't surprise me. Oh and the fact that they get away with it, doesn't mean it is "VERY" common.Only if freelancers work on client site using client property.Otherwise it's two businesses engaging in contractual work.
– DigitalBlade969
12 hours ago
Did a mechanic really spend 2 days fixing my car? Did the lawyer spend all those billed hours on my case? None of these would allow me to keylog their systems or otherwise track their work.How in the world does this website think this is acceptable?! Though, judging by the extremely low, slave labor like offers on there, it doesn't surprise me. Oh and the fact that they get away with it, doesn't mean it is "VERY" common.Only if freelancers work on client site using client property.Otherwise it's two businesses engaging in contractual work.
– DigitalBlade969
12 hours ago
7
7
If you delete the sentence "this is VERY common" this answer would be fine.
– Brandin
8 hours ago
If you delete the sentence "this is VERY common" this answer would be fine.
– Brandin
8 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
Others have given good answers whether or not this is normal (no!), but I wanted to give an example reaction. The tone should be confident, a kind of "take it or leave it" approach (which, IMO, this is):
Hi,
I have been in the industry a number of years. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I am aware of time management and perform as you may expect from a professional.
Asking me to use tracking software gives me the impression that you do not trust me and that won't help the project for either of us. If you want, I can give some testimonials of other clients about how it's like to work with me, but using tracking software has to be a hard no for me.
Please let me know whether you want to continue with this project, [ and here something positive depending on how much you would like this project ].
add a comment |
Others have given good answers whether or not this is normal (no!), but I wanted to give an example reaction. The tone should be confident, a kind of "take it or leave it" approach (which, IMO, this is):
Hi,
I have been in the industry a number of years. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I am aware of time management and perform as you may expect from a professional.
Asking me to use tracking software gives me the impression that you do not trust me and that won't help the project for either of us. If you want, I can give some testimonials of other clients about how it's like to work with me, but using tracking software has to be a hard no for me.
Please let me know whether you want to continue with this project, [ and here something positive depending on how much you would like this project ].
add a comment |
Others have given good answers whether or not this is normal (no!), but I wanted to give an example reaction. The tone should be confident, a kind of "take it or leave it" approach (which, IMO, this is):
Hi,
I have been in the industry a number of years. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I am aware of time management and perform as you may expect from a professional.
Asking me to use tracking software gives me the impression that you do not trust me and that won't help the project for either of us. If you want, I can give some testimonials of other clients about how it's like to work with me, but using tracking software has to be a hard no for me.
Please let me know whether you want to continue with this project, [ and here something positive depending on how much you would like this project ].
Others have given good answers whether or not this is normal (no!), but I wanted to give an example reaction. The tone should be confident, a kind of "take it or leave it" approach (which, IMO, this is):
Hi,
I have been in the industry a number of years. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I am aware of time management and perform as you may expect from a professional.
Asking me to use tracking software gives me the impression that you do not trust me and that won't help the project for either of us. If you want, I can give some testimonials of other clients about how it's like to work with me, but using tracking software has to be a hard no for me.
Please let me know whether you want to continue with this project, [ and here something positive depending on how much you would like this project ].
edited 10 hours ago
avazula
6812616
6812616
answered 12 hours ago
MartijnMartijn
2,2091826
2,2091826
add a comment |
add a comment |
Dedicated devices
Such a requirement isn't common, but it happens sometimes. One reason for highly monitored environments like this one is security controls, but security goes both ways - they don't want you to do unauthorized things, but you also don't want them to do unauthorized things with your data or, worse, data of your other clients.
This means that if something like this is implemented, it's absolutely incompatible with the notion of "my home computer (which is also my work computer)" - if they do screenshot time tracking, then that must be done on a separate device that's dedicated to their project only, at least while their project is ongoing. E.g. start with a clean wiped machine, set up things for their project (including that time-tracking thing), use that machine only for that project and nothing else, and wipe the machine as soon as the project ends, which is a common part of NDAs if you work with sensitive data of that customer.
If you're working on your home computer that contains data of other customers as well, then you can't meet such a requirement; you'd need to get a separate work machine, and you'd have to evaluate whether what they're paying you is adequate to justify that.
1
While I agree with the general premise of setting up a dedicated device I cannot upvote your answer because you suggest that burden should be placed on the freelancer; I am almost inclined to downvote it. I would have the client pay for the device and pay me hourly for all of the wasted hours of getting myself set up to work on their company device.
– MonkeyZeus
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Dedicated devices
Such a requirement isn't common, but it happens sometimes. One reason for highly monitored environments like this one is security controls, but security goes both ways - they don't want you to do unauthorized things, but you also don't want them to do unauthorized things with your data or, worse, data of your other clients.
This means that if something like this is implemented, it's absolutely incompatible with the notion of "my home computer (which is also my work computer)" - if they do screenshot time tracking, then that must be done on a separate device that's dedicated to their project only, at least while their project is ongoing. E.g. start with a clean wiped machine, set up things for their project (including that time-tracking thing), use that machine only for that project and nothing else, and wipe the machine as soon as the project ends, which is a common part of NDAs if you work with sensitive data of that customer.
If you're working on your home computer that contains data of other customers as well, then you can't meet such a requirement; you'd need to get a separate work machine, and you'd have to evaluate whether what they're paying you is adequate to justify that.
1
While I agree with the general premise of setting up a dedicated device I cannot upvote your answer because you suggest that burden should be placed on the freelancer; I am almost inclined to downvote it. I would have the client pay for the device and pay me hourly for all of the wasted hours of getting myself set up to work on their company device.
– MonkeyZeus
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Dedicated devices
Such a requirement isn't common, but it happens sometimes. One reason for highly monitored environments like this one is security controls, but security goes both ways - they don't want you to do unauthorized things, but you also don't want them to do unauthorized things with your data or, worse, data of your other clients.
This means that if something like this is implemented, it's absolutely incompatible with the notion of "my home computer (which is also my work computer)" - if they do screenshot time tracking, then that must be done on a separate device that's dedicated to their project only, at least while their project is ongoing. E.g. start with a clean wiped machine, set up things for their project (including that time-tracking thing), use that machine only for that project and nothing else, and wipe the machine as soon as the project ends, which is a common part of NDAs if you work with sensitive data of that customer.
If you're working on your home computer that contains data of other customers as well, then you can't meet such a requirement; you'd need to get a separate work machine, and you'd have to evaluate whether what they're paying you is adequate to justify that.
Dedicated devices
Such a requirement isn't common, but it happens sometimes. One reason for highly monitored environments like this one is security controls, but security goes both ways - they don't want you to do unauthorized things, but you also don't want them to do unauthorized things with your data or, worse, data of your other clients.
This means that if something like this is implemented, it's absolutely incompatible with the notion of "my home computer (which is also my work computer)" - if they do screenshot time tracking, then that must be done on a separate device that's dedicated to their project only, at least while their project is ongoing. E.g. start with a clean wiped machine, set up things for their project (including that time-tracking thing), use that machine only for that project and nothing else, and wipe the machine as soon as the project ends, which is a common part of NDAs if you work with sensitive data of that customer.
If you're working on your home computer that contains data of other customers as well, then you can't meet such a requirement; you'd need to get a separate work machine, and you'd have to evaluate whether what they're paying you is adequate to justify that.
edited 9 hours ago
answered 11 hours ago
PeterisPeteris
8371017
8371017
1
While I agree with the general premise of setting up a dedicated device I cannot upvote your answer because you suggest that burden should be placed on the freelancer; I am almost inclined to downvote it. I would have the client pay for the device and pay me hourly for all of the wasted hours of getting myself set up to work on their company device.
– MonkeyZeus
3 hours ago
add a comment |
1
While I agree with the general premise of setting up a dedicated device I cannot upvote your answer because you suggest that burden should be placed on the freelancer; I am almost inclined to downvote it. I would have the client pay for the device and pay me hourly for all of the wasted hours of getting myself set up to work on their company device.
– MonkeyZeus
3 hours ago
1
1
While I agree with the general premise of setting up a dedicated device I cannot upvote your answer because you suggest that burden should be placed on the freelancer; I am almost inclined to downvote it. I would have the client pay for the device and pay me hourly for all of the wasted hours of getting myself set up to work on their company device.
– MonkeyZeus
3 hours ago
While I agree with the general premise of setting up a dedicated device I cannot upvote your answer because you suggest that burden should be placed on the freelancer; I am almost inclined to downvote it. I would have the client pay for the device and pay me hourly for all of the wasted hours of getting myself set up to work on their company device.
– MonkeyZeus
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Your problem around this request is based on your setup. The reason there's a privacy concern is because you haven't split up your personal and work correctly; nor have you split your clients.
By creating a single VM per client; you will at no point have any issue with cross contamination of key log data or personal data.
There are many reasons why doing this is advantageous - such as limiting the impact of malware to your business, accidentally breaking NDA's and as you just found out, meeting strange requests from clients.
Is it common practice? Well, I can't talk about freelancing, but most financial institutions use key loggers to protect themselves; often without the knowledge of the employees. It is worth highlighting that the collection of the data is legal; but the use of any passwords etc is not.
The fact that they're asking for evidence that you're working the timesheet that you submit doesn't seem unreasonable; and if you have a better proposal on how you can present it then you can make a counter offer.
As for the direct implication the client does not trust me; I disagree with this blanket statement. It might be that the person who's doing the outsourcing isn't trusted; or one of many other options; and even if it is true, so what? Would you trust someone's word without any evidence to back it up? It seems actually like they're taking a very reasonable stance by wanting evidence.
You can always respond that you need to be paid in advance before delivery of the goods - which is also very reasonable.
That still doesnt answer other concerns that OP has, it just reduces the risk on his private data. I still wouldnt be comfortable being monitored like that even if you had a seperate computer.
– ayrton clark
8 hours ago
@ayrtonclark updated.
– UKMonkey
8 hours ago
2
I think this is how I would suggest doing it. A VM for each client solves a lot of these weird client specific problems.
– Rich
5 hours ago
1
"A VM for each client" is extremily incomvenient 'cuz you need to duplicate your software and settings and synchronize any changes. Moving things between a VM and the host (e.g from/to your e-mail client) is also problematic. I wouldn't even consider it unless I'm working with things like state secrets -- and even that to rather insure myself (from accidental copying).
– ivan_pozdeev
4 hours ago
1
I mulled over this idea, but the trust factor really bothered me more than most. As some of the other answers have suggested (and it makes sense) this is a client foreshadowing the future. Non-payment, withholding payment to force a new feature, common scummy slave driver tactics. To your point, this however mitigates some of the security risk (modern malware can escape VMs and it would be prudent to guess a professionally developed RAT has no problem doing this either).
– CL40
4 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Your problem around this request is based on your setup. The reason there's a privacy concern is because you haven't split up your personal and work correctly; nor have you split your clients.
By creating a single VM per client; you will at no point have any issue with cross contamination of key log data or personal data.
There are many reasons why doing this is advantageous - such as limiting the impact of malware to your business, accidentally breaking NDA's and as you just found out, meeting strange requests from clients.
Is it common practice? Well, I can't talk about freelancing, but most financial institutions use key loggers to protect themselves; often without the knowledge of the employees. It is worth highlighting that the collection of the data is legal; but the use of any passwords etc is not.
The fact that they're asking for evidence that you're working the timesheet that you submit doesn't seem unreasonable; and if you have a better proposal on how you can present it then you can make a counter offer.
As for the direct implication the client does not trust me; I disagree with this blanket statement. It might be that the person who's doing the outsourcing isn't trusted; or one of many other options; and even if it is true, so what? Would you trust someone's word without any evidence to back it up? It seems actually like they're taking a very reasonable stance by wanting evidence.
You can always respond that you need to be paid in advance before delivery of the goods - which is also very reasonable.
That still doesnt answer other concerns that OP has, it just reduces the risk on his private data. I still wouldnt be comfortable being monitored like that even if you had a seperate computer.
– ayrton clark
8 hours ago
@ayrtonclark updated.
– UKMonkey
8 hours ago
2
I think this is how I would suggest doing it. A VM for each client solves a lot of these weird client specific problems.
– Rich
5 hours ago
1
"A VM for each client" is extremily incomvenient 'cuz you need to duplicate your software and settings and synchronize any changes. Moving things between a VM and the host (e.g from/to your e-mail client) is also problematic. I wouldn't even consider it unless I'm working with things like state secrets -- and even that to rather insure myself (from accidental copying).
– ivan_pozdeev
4 hours ago
1
I mulled over this idea, but the trust factor really bothered me more than most. As some of the other answers have suggested (and it makes sense) this is a client foreshadowing the future. Non-payment, withholding payment to force a new feature, common scummy slave driver tactics. To your point, this however mitigates some of the security risk (modern malware can escape VMs and it would be prudent to guess a professionally developed RAT has no problem doing this either).
– CL40
4 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Your problem around this request is based on your setup. The reason there's a privacy concern is because you haven't split up your personal and work correctly; nor have you split your clients.
By creating a single VM per client; you will at no point have any issue with cross contamination of key log data or personal data.
There are many reasons why doing this is advantageous - such as limiting the impact of malware to your business, accidentally breaking NDA's and as you just found out, meeting strange requests from clients.
Is it common practice? Well, I can't talk about freelancing, but most financial institutions use key loggers to protect themselves; often without the knowledge of the employees. It is worth highlighting that the collection of the data is legal; but the use of any passwords etc is not.
The fact that they're asking for evidence that you're working the timesheet that you submit doesn't seem unreasonable; and if you have a better proposal on how you can present it then you can make a counter offer.
As for the direct implication the client does not trust me; I disagree with this blanket statement. It might be that the person who's doing the outsourcing isn't trusted; or one of many other options; and even if it is true, so what? Would you trust someone's word without any evidence to back it up? It seems actually like they're taking a very reasonable stance by wanting evidence.
You can always respond that you need to be paid in advance before delivery of the goods - which is also very reasonable.
Your problem around this request is based on your setup. The reason there's a privacy concern is because you haven't split up your personal and work correctly; nor have you split your clients.
By creating a single VM per client; you will at no point have any issue with cross contamination of key log data or personal data.
There are many reasons why doing this is advantageous - such as limiting the impact of malware to your business, accidentally breaking NDA's and as you just found out, meeting strange requests from clients.
Is it common practice? Well, I can't talk about freelancing, but most financial institutions use key loggers to protect themselves; often without the knowledge of the employees. It is worth highlighting that the collection of the data is legal; but the use of any passwords etc is not.
The fact that they're asking for evidence that you're working the timesheet that you submit doesn't seem unreasonable; and if you have a better proposal on how you can present it then you can make a counter offer.
As for the direct implication the client does not trust me; I disagree with this blanket statement. It might be that the person who's doing the outsourcing isn't trusted; or one of many other options; and even if it is true, so what? Would you trust someone's word without any evidence to back it up? It seems actually like they're taking a very reasonable stance by wanting evidence.
You can always respond that you need to be paid in advance before delivery of the goods - which is also very reasonable.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
UKMonkeyUKMonkey
2,240515
2,240515
That still doesnt answer other concerns that OP has, it just reduces the risk on his private data. I still wouldnt be comfortable being monitored like that even if you had a seperate computer.
– ayrton clark
8 hours ago
@ayrtonclark updated.
– UKMonkey
8 hours ago
2
I think this is how I would suggest doing it. A VM for each client solves a lot of these weird client specific problems.
– Rich
5 hours ago
1
"A VM for each client" is extremily incomvenient 'cuz you need to duplicate your software and settings and synchronize any changes. Moving things between a VM and the host (e.g from/to your e-mail client) is also problematic. I wouldn't even consider it unless I'm working with things like state secrets -- and even that to rather insure myself (from accidental copying).
– ivan_pozdeev
4 hours ago
1
I mulled over this idea, but the trust factor really bothered me more than most. As some of the other answers have suggested (and it makes sense) this is a client foreshadowing the future. Non-payment, withholding payment to force a new feature, common scummy slave driver tactics. To your point, this however mitigates some of the security risk (modern malware can escape VMs and it would be prudent to guess a professionally developed RAT has no problem doing this either).
– CL40
4 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
That still doesnt answer other concerns that OP has, it just reduces the risk on his private data. I still wouldnt be comfortable being monitored like that even if you had a seperate computer.
– ayrton clark
8 hours ago
@ayrtonclark updated.
– UKMonkey
8 hours ago
2
I think this is how I would suggest doing it. A VM for each client solves a lot of these weird client specific problems.
– Rich
5 hours ago
1
"A VM for each client" is extremily incomvenient 'cuz you need to duplicate your software and settings and synchronize any changes. Moving things between a VM and the host (e.g from/to your e-mail client) is also problematic. I wouldn't even consider it unless I'm working with things like state secrets -- and even that to rather insure myself (from accidental copying).
– ivan_pozdeev
4 hours ago
1
I mulled over this idea, but the trust factor really bothered me more than most. As some of the other answers have suggested (and it makes sense) this is a client foreshadowing the future. Non-payment, withholding payment to force a new feature, common scummy slave driver tactics. To your point, this however mitigates some of the security risk (modern malware can escape VMs and it would be prudent to guess a professionally developed RAT has no problem doing this either).
– CL40
4 hours ago
That still doesnt answer other concerns that OP has, it just reduces the risk on his private data. I still wouldnt be comfortable being monitored like that even if you had a seperate computer.
– ayrton clark
8 hours ago
That still doesnt answer other concerns that OP has, it just reduces the risk on his private data. I still wouldnt be comfortable being monitored like that even if you had a seperate computer.
– ayrton clark
8 hours ago
@ayrtonclark updated.
– UKMonkey
8 hours ago
@ayrtonclark updated.
– UKMonkey
8 hours ago
2
2
I think this is how I would suggest doing it. A VM for each client solves a lot of these weird client specific problems.
– Rich
5 hours ago
I think this is how I would suggest doing it. A VM for each client solves a lot of these weird client specific problems.
– Rich
5 hours ago
1
1
"A VM for each client" is extremily incomvenient 'cuz you need to duplicate your software and settings and synchronize any changes. Moving things between a VM and the host (e.g from/to your e-mail client) is also problematic. I wouldn't even consider it unless I'm working with things like state secrets -- and even that to rather insure myself (from accidental copying).
– ivan_pozdeev
4 hours ago
"A VM for each client" is extremily incomvenient 'cuz you need to duplicate your software and settings and synchronize any changes. Moving things between a VM and the host (e.g from/to your e-mail client) is also problematic. I wouldn't even consider it unless I'm working with things like state secrets -- and even that to rather insure myself (from accidental copying).
– ivan_pozdeev
4 hours ago
1
1
I mulled over this idea, but the trust factor really bothered me more than most. As some of the other answers have suggested (and it makes sense) this is a client foreshadowing the future. Non-payment, withholding payment to force a new feature, common scummy slave driver tactics. To your point, this however mitigates some of the security risk (modern malware can escape VMs and it would be prudent to guess a professionally developed RAT has no problem doing this either).
– CL40
4 hours ago
I mulled over this idea, but the trust factor really bothered me more than most. As some of the other answers have suggested (and it makes sense) this is a client foreshadowing the future. Non-payment, withholding payment to force a new feature, common scummy slave driver tactics. To your point, this however mitigates some of the security risk (modern malware can escape VMs and it would be prudent to guess a professionally developed RAT has no problem doing this either).
– CL40
4 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Speaking to whether or not you should do this, I think you have your answer here.
I am not desperate for work.
One of the primary benefits of being a good freelance developer is the ability to choose your clients and work on your own terms. If you don't feel comfortable with this (and who would blame you), simply decline. Probably not someone you want to work with anyway.
It's important to remember that YOU are in charge of your business and responsible for how you do your work, how much you charge, etc. If you find yourself in a situation where you're struggling for clients or money, then by all means, reevaluate, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.
When done tactfully and with confidence, you will command respect and attract higher quality clients through a willingness to take control, dictate the process, or walk away when the situation calls for it.
add a comment |
Speaking to whether or not you should do this, I think you have your answer here.
I am not desperate for work.
One of the primary benefits of being a good freelance developer is the ability to choose your clients and work on your own terms. If you don't feel comfortable with this (and who would blame you), simply decline. Probably not someone you want to work with anyway.
It's important to remember that YOU are in charge of your business and responsible for how you do your work, how much you charge, etc. If you find yourself in a situation where you're struggling for clients or money, then by all means, reevaluate, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.
When done tactfully and with confidence, you will command respect and attract higher quality clients through a willingness to take control, dictate the process, or walk away when the situation calls for it.
add a comment |
Speaking to whether or not you should do this, I think you have your answer here.
I am not desperate for work.
One of the primary benefits of being a good freelance developer is the ability to choose your clients and work on your own terms. If you don't feel comfortable with this (and who would blame you), simply decline. Probably not someone you want to work with anyway.
It's important to remember that YOU are in charge of your business and responsible for how you do your work, how much you charge, etc. If you find yourself in a situation where you're struggling for clients or money, then by all means, reevaluate, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.
When done tactfully and with confidence, you will command respect and attract higher quality clients through a willingness to take control, dictate the process, or walk away when the situation calls for it.
Speaking to whether or not you should do this, I think you have your answer here.
I am not desperate for work.
One of the primary benefits of being a good freelance developer is the ability to choose your clients and work on your own terms. If you don't feel comfortable with this (and who would blame you), simply decline. Probably not someone you want to work with anyway.
It's important to remember that YOU are in charge of your business and responsible for how you do your work, how much you charge, etc. If you find yourself in a situation where you're struggling for clients or money, then by all means, reevaluate, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.
When done tactfully and with confidence, you will command respect and attract higher quality clients through a willingness to take control, dictate the process, or walk away when the situation calls for it.
edited 6 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
aw04aw04
64327
64327
add a comment |
add a comment |
I personally would decline because of privacy concerns (both yours and other clients of yours).
However, I would also propose an alternative. I would ask them to provide a similar machine that would have the screenshot tracking thing and that computer could solely be used for work related to the client that requested you install the screenshotting software.
This is certainly a good suggestion. I think I would rather fire the client than have the additional risk of them accusing me of breaking/stealing/etc their hardware. More to the point, mailing laptops back and forth is hairy business.
– CL40
4 hours ago
Definitely not a favourable solution, but short of saying no and turning down business, this is as close as the OP can get to their client's wishes without sacrificing other clients' privacy
– kolsyra
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I personally would decline because of privacy concerns (both yours and other clients of yours).
However, I would also propose an alternative. I would ask them to provide a similar machine that would have the screenshot tracking thing and that computer could solely be used for work related to the client that requested you install the screenshotting software.
This is certainly a good suggestion. I think I would rather fire the client than have the additional risk of them accusing me of breaking/stealing/etc their hardware. More to the point, mailing laptops back and forth is hairy business.
– CL40
4 hours ago
Definitely not a favourable solution, but short of saying no and turning down business, this is as close as the OP can get to their client's wishes without sacrificing other clients' privacy
– kolsyra
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I personally would decline because of privacy concerns (both yours and other clients of yours).
However, I would also propose an alternative. I would ask them to provide a similar machine that would have the screenshot tracking thing and that computer could solely be used for work related to the client that requested you install the screenshotting software.
I personally would decline because of privacy concerns (both yours and other clients of yours).
However, I would also propose an alternative. I would ask them to provide a similar machine that would have the screenshot tracking thing and that computer could solely be used for work related to the client that requested you install the screenshotting software.
answered 7 hours ago
kolsyrakolsyra
1,157811
1,157811
This is certainly a good suggestion. I think I would rather fire the client than have the additional risk of them accusing me of breaking/stealing/etc their hardware. More to the point, mailing laptops back and forth is hairy business.
– CL40
4 hours ago
Definitely not a favourable solution, but short of saying no and turning down business, this is as close as the OP can get to their client's wishes without sacrificing other clients' privacy
– kolsyra
1 hour ago
add a comment |
This is certainly a good suggestion. I think I would rather fire the client than have the additional risk of them accusing me of breaking/stealing/etc their hardware. More to the point, mailing laptops back and forth is hairy business.
– CL40
4 hours ago
Definitely not a favourable solution, but short of saying no and turning down business, this is as close as the OP can get to their client's wishes without sacrificing other clients' privacy
– kolsyra
1 hour ago
This is certainly a good suggestion. I think I would rather fire the client than have the additional risk of them accusing me of breaking/stealing/etc their hardware. More to the point, mailing laptops back and forth is hairy business.
– CL40
4 hours ago
This is certainly a good suggestion. I think I would rather fire the client than have the additional risk of them accusing me of breaking/stealing/etc their hardware. More to the point, mailing laptops back and forth is hairy business.
– CL40
4 hours ago
Definitely not a favourable solution, but short of saying no and turning down business, this is as close as the OP can get to their client's wishes without sacrificing other clients' privacy
– kolsyra
1 hour ago
Definitely not a favourable solution, but short of saying no and turning down business, this is as close as the OP can get to their client's wishes without sacrificing other clients' privacy
– kolsyra
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I have never even heard of this concept, maybe its an Americanism, but in the UK ... never.
However, I did it to myself a long time ago in an attempt to help me fill out my timesheets at the end of the week by installing a program that kept track of what program was active every few seconds. I found that, as a software developer, the 2 programs I used the most by far, and I mean over 50% of the time combined, were Firefox and Microsoft Word.
Word is obvious, all those specs and documents, but Firefox's 2 main websites viewed were StackOverflow and MSDN (3rd FYI was Outlook.. don't you love corporate work environments!)
So my problem quickly became how to tell what I was working on, if a significant amount of my time was spent reading stuff, even though it was work-related. I gave up as it was useless (if fun statistically).
So unless they're just being paranoid that you're working (rather than judging you by results) then tell them you don't use it because its a waste of time.
I don't think this concept is uniquely American (I am American). Many sweat shop sites use this, and I suspect the client I am referring to commonly uses these.
– CL40
4 hours ago
add a comment |
I have never even heard of this concept, maybe its an Americanism, but in the UK ... never.
However, I did it to myself a long time ago in an attempt to help me fill out my timesheets at the end of the week by installing a program that kept track of what program was active every few seconds. I found that, as a software developer, the 2 programs I used the most by far, and I mean over 50% of the time combined, were Firefox and Microsoft Word.
Word is obvious, all those specs and documents, but Firefox's 2 main websites viewed were StackOverflow and MSDN (3rd FYI was Outlook.. don't you love corporate work environments!)
So my problem quickly became how to tell what I was working on, if a significant amount of my time was spent reading stuff, even though it was work-related. I gave up as it was useless (if fun statistically).
So unless they're just being paranoid that you're working (rather than judging you by results) then tell them you don't use it because its a waste of time.
I don't think this concept is uniquely American (I am American). Many sweat shop sites use this, and I suspect the client I am referring to commonly uses these.
– CL40
4 hours ago
add a comment |
I have never even heard of this concept, maybe its an Americanism, but in the UK ... never.
However, I did it to myself a long time ago in an attempt to help me fill out my timesheets at the end of the week by installing a program that kept track of what program was active every few seconds. I found that, as a software developer, the 2 programs I used the most by far, and I mean over 50% of the time combined, were Firefox and Microsoft Word.
Word is obvious, all those specs and documents, but Firefox's 2 main websites viewed were StackOverflow and MSDN (3rd FYI was Outlook.. don't you love corporate work environments!)
So my problem quickly became how to tell what I was working on, if a significant amount of my time was spent reading stuff, even though it was work-related. I gave up as it was useless (if fun statistically).
So unless they're just being paranoid that you're working (rather than judging you by results) then tell them you don't use it because its a waste of time.
I have never even heard of this concept, maybe its an Americanism, but in the UK ... never.
However, I did it to myself a long time ago in an attempt to help me fill out my timesheets at the end of the week by installing a program that kept track of what program was active every few seconds. I found that, as a software developer, the 2 programs I used the most by far, and I mean over 50% of the time combined, were Firefox and Microsoft Word.
Word is obvious, all those specs and documents, but Firefox's 2 main websites viewed were StackOverflow and MSDN (3rd FYI was Outlook.. don't you love corporate work environments!)
So my problem quickly became how to tell what I was working on, if a significant amount of my time was spent reading stuff, even though it was work-related. I gave up as it was useless (if fun statistically).
So unless they're just being paranoid that you're working (rather than judging you by results) then tell them you don't use it because its a waste of time.
answered 4 hours ago
gbjbaanbgbjbaanb
2,2341019
2,2341019
I don't think this concept is uniquely American (I am American). Many sweat shop sites use this, and I suspect the client I am referring to commonly uses these.
– CL40
4 hours ago
add a comment |
I don't think this concept is uniquely American (I am American). Many sweat shop sites use this, and I suspect the client I am referring to commonly uses these.
– CL40
4 hours ago
I don't think this concept is uniquely American (I am American). Many sweat shop sites use this, and I suspect the client I am referring to commonly uses these.
– CL40
4 hours ago
I don't think this concept is uniquely American (I am American). Many sweat shop sites use this, and I suspect the client I am referring to commonly uses these.
– CL40
4 hours ago
add a comment |
No, this isn't a normal request. And from your own descriptions, I think you can improve your invoicing techniques. Clients don't care about your lunch breaks. All they care about is seeing what you did and how much it cost. Be clear, concise, and imagine you are the client reading the invoice. The goal should be, "Wow, look how much work was done in that little time!". Examples:
Bad: "2.5 hours: fixing bugs, research"
No one wants to pay for bug fixes and research! But they are happy to pay for "updates".
Good: "2.5 hours: updating interfaces, adding low battery indicator, adding flux capacitor monitoring, additional database development"
You don't need a ton of detail, just enough to show you've been busy and the hours are reasonable.
add a comment |
No, this isn't a normal request. And from your own descriptions, I think you can improve your invoicing techniques. Clients don't care about your lunch breaks. All they care about is seeing what you did and how much it cost. Be clear, concise, and imagine you are the client reading the invoice. The goal should be, "Wow, look how much work was done in that little time!". Examples:
Bad: "2.5 hours: fixing bugs, research"
No one wants to pay for bug fixes and research! But they are happy to pay for "updates".
Good: "2.5 hours: updating interfaces, adding low battery indicator, adding flux capacitor monitoring, additional database development"
You don't need a ton of detail, just enough to show you've been busy and the hours are reasonable.
add a comment |
No, this isn't a normal request. And from your own descriptions, I think you can improve your invoicing techniques. Clients don't care about your lunch breaks. All they care about is seeing what you did and how much it cost. Be clear, concise, and imagine you are the client reading the invoice. The goal should be, "Wow, look how much work was done in that little time!". Examples:
Bad: "2.5 hours: fixing bugs, research"
No one wants to pay for bug fixes and research! But they are happy to pay for "updates".
Good: "2.5 hours: updating interfaces, adding low battery indicator, adding flux capacitor monitoring, additional database development"
You don't need a ton of detail, just enough to show you've been busy and the hours are reasonable.
No, this isn't a normal request. And from your own descriptions, I think you can improve your invoicing techniques. Clients don't care about your lunch breaks. All they care about is seeing what you did and how much it cost. Be clear, concise, and imagine you are the client reading the invoice. The goal should be, "Wow, look how much work was done in that little time!". Examples:
Bad: "2.5 hours: fixing bugs, research"
No one wants to pay for bug fixes and research! But they are happy to pay for "updates".
Good: "2.5 hours: updating interfaces, adding low battery indicator, adding flux capacitor monitoring, additional database development"
You don't need a ton of detail, just enough to show you've been busy and the hours are reasonable.
answered 2 hours ago
RockyRocky
1,08469
1,08469
add a comment |
add a comment |
My answer is similar to Peteris's but a bit further.
While being monitored, it's foolish to not treat this workstation as known infected with spyware. It should be in a DMZ on your network (or have its access restricted to egress and nothing else).
Knowing that someone doesn't trust me is annoying--I understand they don't necessarily know I'm trustworthy--but it's still difficult to not find this insulting.
The only way I'd ever agree to a intrusion like this is if the expected pay would more than cover
a) the cost of a workstation dedicated to the task, and
b) the requisite hassle for setting it up as above, and
c) being enough left over to justify the work at all.
Even so, I'd likely consider a VM.
Obviously there are other factors: How much do you need the work? How likely is this client to bring you future work--or refer other appealing clients?
As for how common this is...I've never seen it, but that's my experience.
New contributor
add a comment |
My answer is similar to Peteris's but a bit further.
While being monitored, it's foolish to not treat this workstation as known infected with spyware. It should be in a DMZ on your network (or have its access restricted to egress and nothing else).
Knowing that someone doesn't trust me is annoying--I understand they don't necessarily know I'm trustworthy--but it's still difficult to not find this insulting.
The only way I'd ever agree to a intrusion like this is if the expected pay would more than cover
a) the cost of a workstation dedicated to the task, and
b) the requisite hassle for setting it up as above, and
c) being enough left over to justify the work at all.
Even so, I'd likely consider a VM.
Obviously there are other factors: How much do you need the work? How likely is this client to bring you future work--or refer other appealing clients?
As for how common this is...I've never seen it, but that's my experience.
New contributor
add a comment |
My answer is similar to Peteris's but a bit further.
While being monitored, it's foolish to not treat this workstation as known infected with spyware. It should be in a DMZ on your network (or have its access restricted to egress and nothing else).
Knowing that someone doesn't trust me is annoying--I understand they don't necessarily know I'm trustworthy--but it's still difficult to not find this insulting.
The only way I'd ever agree to a intrusion like this is if the expected pay would more than cover
a) the cost of a workstation dedicated to the task, and
b) the requisite hassle for setting it up as above, and
c) being enough left over to justify the work at all.
Even so, I'd likely consider a VM.
Obviously there are other factors: How much do you need the work? How likely is this client to bring you future work--or refer other appealing clients?
As for how common this is...I've never seen it, but that's my experience.
New contributor
My answer is similar to Peteris's but a bit further.
While being monitored, it's foolish to not treat this workstation as known infected with spyware. It should be in a DMZ on your network (or have its access restricted to egress and nothing else).
Knowing that someone doesn't trust me is annoying--I understand they don't necessarily know I'm trustworthy--but it's still difficult to not find this insulting.
The only way I'd ever agree to a intrusion like this is if the expected pay would more than cover
a) the cost of a workstation dedicated to the task, and
b) the requisite hassle for setting it up as above, and
c) being enough left over to justify the work at all.
Even so, I'd likely consider a VM.
Obviously there are other factors: How much do you need the work? How likely is this client to bring you future work--or refer other appealing clients?
As for how common this is...I've never seen it, but that's my experience.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 51 mins ago
zedmelonzedmelon
11
11
New contributor
New contributor
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protected by Jane S♦ 9 mins ago
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Are these government, government contractors, or otherwise regulated clients? I know the US Government has the right to show up at any contractor's place of work at any time to audit timecards: a friend who worked from home had an auditor show up at his house for an inspection. He had to show the current open entry corresponded to the engineering work he was doing on his screen. This extends to non-government work done by contractors (due to calculation of overhead).
– user71659
16 hours ago
5
Strongly related: My customer wants me to record a video of how I develop his software product
– Radu Murzea
12 hours ago
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Lilienthal♦
8 hours ago