What did the Hobbits call the story we know as The Lord of the Rings?





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30















I came across a jarring statement in Unfinished Tales, in the chapter "The Palantíri":




It must however be noted with regard to the narrative of The Lord of the Rings that over and above such deputed authority, even hereditary, any "Heir of Elendil" (that is, a recognized descendant occupying a throne or lordship in the Númenórean realms by virtue of this descent) had the right to use any of the palantíri.




This passage seems to occur "in-universe", which is why it surprised me. I don't recall coming across a reference to The Lord of the Rings as such in Tolkien's other works, in an in-universe context. I was also under the impression that Frodo's title for the story we know as The Lord of the Rings in The Red Book of Westmarch was considerably more wordy, something like The Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King.



Would Frodo, Bilbo, or Sam have called the story The Lord of the Rings? If not, did Tolkien simply make a mistake here?










share|improve this question


















  • 2





    The Lord of the Rings is mentioned at the Counsel of Elrond. "Sooner or later, The Lord of The Rings would learn of its hiding place and bend all his power towards it".

    – user46509
    Aug 1 '15 at 17:25






  • 4





    @CarlSixsmith - Good point. I know that Sauron is referred to as "the Lord of the Rings" on occasion, but I don't remember the story itself being referred to as such.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 1 '15 at 17:26






  • 2





    Unfinished tales is heavily out of universe IIRC. It quite literally is the bits that weren't quite finished

    – Journeyman Geek
    Aug 2 '15 at 23:54











  • @JourneymanGeek - I'm almost done with the book, and I don't think any of the main text was out-of-universe. It is called Unfinished Tales because Tolkien hadn't edited and revised it a billion times, as he was wont to do. It doesn't include any stories that end mid-sentence, for instance. It just wasn't ready to be published (by Tolkien's exacting standards, at least) when he died. I think the biggest problem he had with the stories was that he hadn't been able to make them completely consistent with the already published works.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 3 '15 at 0:04











  • My thinking on this, as the question asks for what the Hobbits called the story, is "The story of Nine-fingered Frodo and the ring of Doom". Exactly as Sam (a Hobbit) says in the book

    – DannyMcG
    2 hours ago


















30















I came across a jarring statement in Unfinished Tales, in the chapter "The Palantíri":




It must however be noted with regard to the narrative of The Lord of the Rings that over and above such deputed authority, even hereditary, any "Heir of Elendil" (that is, a recognized descendant occupying a throne or lordship in the Númenórean realms by virtue of this descent) had the right to use any of the palantíri.




This passage seems to occur "in-universe", which is why it surprised me. I don't recall coming across a reference to The Lord of the Rings as such in Tolkien's other works, in an in-universe context. I was also under the impression that Frodo's title for the story we know as The Lord of the Rings in The Red Book of Westmarch was considerably more wordy, something like The Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King.



Would Frodo, Bilbo, or Sam have called the story The Lord of the Rings? If not, did Tolkien simply make a mistake here?










share|improve this question


















  • 2





    The Lord of the Rings is mentioned at the Counsel of Elrond. "Sooner or later, The Lord of The Rings would learn of its hiding place and bend all his power towards it".

    – user46509
    Aug 1 '15 at 17:25






  • 4





    @CarlSixsmith - Good point. I know that Sauron is referred to as "the Lord of the Rings" on occasion, but I don't remember the story itself being referred to as such.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 1 '15 at 17:26






  • 2





    Unfinished tales is heavily out of universe IIRC. It quite literally is the bits that weren't quite finished

    – Journeyman Geek
    Aug 2 '15 at 23:54











  • @JourneymanGeek - I'm almost done with the book, and I don't think any of the main text was out-of-universe. It is called Unfinished Tales because Tolkien hadn't edited and revised it a billion times, as he was wont to do. It doesn't include any stories that end mid-sentence, for instance. It just wasn't ready to be published (by Tolkien's exacting standards, at least) when he died. I think the biggest problem he had with the stories was that he hadn't been able to make them completely consistent with the already published works.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 3 '15 at 0:04











  • My thinking on this, as the question asks for what the Hobbits called the story, is "The story of Nine-fingered Frodo and the ring of Doom". Exactly as Sam (a Hobbit) says in the book

    – DannyMcG
    2 hours ago














30












30








30


2






I came across a jarring statement in Unfinished Tales, in the chapter "The Palantíri":




It must however be noted with regard to the narrative of The Lord of the Rings that over and above such deputed authority, even hereditary, any "Heir of Elendil" (that is, a recognized descendant occupying a throne or lordship in the Númenórean realms by virtue of this descent) had the right to use any of the palantíri.




This passage seems to occur "in-universe", which is why it surprised me. I don't recall coming across a reference to The Lord of the Rings as such in Tolkien's other works, in an in-universe context. I was also under the impression that Frodo's title for the story we know as The Lord of the Rings in The Red Book of Westmarch was considerably more wordy, something like The Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King.



Would Frodo, Bilbo, or Sam have called the story The Lord of the Rings? If not, did Tolkien simply make a mistake here?










share|improve this question














I came across a jarring statement in Unfinished Tales, in the chapter "The Palantíri":




It must however be noted with regard to the narrative of The Lord of the Rings that over and above such deputed authority, even hereditary, any "Heir of Elendil" (that is, a recognized descendant occupying a throne or lordship in the Númenórean realms by virtue of this descent) had the right to use any of the palantíri.




This passage seems to occur "in-universe", which is why it surprised me. I don't recall coming across a reference to The Lord of the Rings as such in Tolkien's other works, in an in-universe context. I was also under the impression that Frodo's title for the story we know as The Lord of the Rings in The Red Book of Westmarch was considerably more wordy, something like The Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King.



Would Frodo, Bilbo, or Sam have called the story The Lord of the Rings? If not, did Tolkien simply make a mistake here?







the-lord-of-the-rings tolkiens-legendarium






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asked Aug 1 '15 at 16:33









Wad CheberWad Cheber

43.8k38407585




43.8k38407585








  • 2





    The Lord of the Rings is mentioned at the Counsel of Elrond. "Sooner or later, The Lord of The Rings would learn of its hiding place and bend all his power towards it".

    – user46509
    Aug 1 '15 at 17:25






  • 4





    @CarlSixsmith - Good point. I know that Sauron is referred to as "the Lord of the Rings" on occasion, but I don't remember the story itself being referred to as such.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 1 '15 at 17:26






  • 2





    Unfinished tales is heavily out of universe IIRC. It quite literally is the bits that weren't quite finished

    – Journeyman Geek
    Aug 2 '15 at 23:54











  • @JourneymanGeek - I'm almost done with the book, and I don't think any of the main text was out-of-universe. It is called Unfinished Tales because Tolkien hadn't edited and revised it a billion times, as he was wont to do. It doesn't include any stories that end mid-sentence, for instance. It just wasn't ready to be published (by Tolkien's exacting standards, at least) when he died. I think the biggest problem he had with the stories was that he hadn't been able to make them completely consistent with the already published works.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 3 '15 at 0:04











  • My thinking on this, as the question asks for what the Hobbits called the story, is "The story of Nine-fingered Frodo and the ring of Doom". Exactly as Sam (a Hobbit) says in the book

    – DannyMcG
    2 hours ago














  • 2





    The Lord of the Rings is mentioned at the Counsel of Elrond. "Sooner or later, The Lord of The Rings would learn of its hiding place and bend all his power towards it".

    – user46509
    Aug 1 '15 at 17:25






  • 4





    @CarlSixsmith - Good point. I know that Sauron is referred to as "the Lord of the Rings" on occasion, but I don't remember the story itself being referred to as such.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 1 '15 at 17:26






  • 2





    Unfinished tales is heavily out of universe IIRC. It quite literally is the bits that weren't quite finished

    – Journeyman Geek
    Aug 2 '15 at 23:54











  • @JourneymanGeek - I'm almost done with the book, and I don't think any of the main text was out-of-universe. It is called Unfinished Tales because Tolkien hadn't edited and revised it a billion times, as he was wont to do. It doesn't include any stories that end mid-sentence, for instance. It just wasn't ready to be published (by Tolkien's exacting standards, at least) when he died. I think the biggest problem he had with the stories was that he hadn't been able to make them completely consistent with the already published works.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 3 '15 at 0:04











  • My thinking on this, as the question asks for what the Hobbits called the story, is "The story of Nine-fingered Frodo and the ring of Doom". Exactly as Sam (a Hobbit) says in the book

    – DannyMcG
    2 hours ago








2




2





The Lord of the Rings is mentioned at the Counsel of Elrond. "Sooner or later, The Lord of The Rings would learn of its hiding place and bend all his power towards it".

– user46509
Aug 1 '15 at 17:25





The Lord of the Rings is mentioned at the Counsel of Elrond. "Sooner or later, The Lord of The Rings would learn of its hiding place and bend all his power towards it".

– user46509
Aug 1 '15 at 17:25




4




4





@CarlSixsmith - Good point. I know that Sauron is referred to as "the Lord of the Rings" on occasion, but I don't remember the story itself being referred to as such.

– Wad Cheber
Aug 1 '15 at 17:26





@CarlSixsmith - Good point. I know that Sauron is referred to as "the Lord of the Rings" on occasion, but I don't remember the story itself being referred to as such.

– Wad Cheber
Aug 1 '15 at 17:26




2




2





Unfinished tales is heavily out of universe IIRC. It quite literally is the bits that weren't quite finished

– Journeyman Geek
Aug 2 '15 at 23:54





Unfinished tales is heavily out of universe IIRC. It quite literally is the bits that weren't quite finished

– Journeyman Geek
Aug 2 '15 at 23:54













@JourneymanGeek - I'm almost done with the book, and I don't think any of the main text was out-of-universe. It is called Unfinished Tales because Tolkien hadn't edited and revised it a billion times, as he was wont to do. It doesn't include any stories that end mid-sentence, for instance. It just wasn't ready to be published (by Tolkien's exacting standards, at least) when he died. I think the biggest problem he had with the stories was that he hadn't been able to make them completely consistent with the already published works.

– Wad Cheber
Aug 3 '15 at 0:04





@JourneymanGeek - I'm almost done with the book, and I don't think any of the main text was out-of-universe. It is called Unfinished Tales because Tolkien hadn't edited and revised it a billion times, as he was wont to do. It doesn't include any stories that end mid-sentence, for instance. It just wasn't ready to be published (by Tolkien's exacting standards, at least) when he died. I think the biggest problem he had with the stories was that he hadn't been able to make them completely consistent with the already published works.

– Wad Cheber
Aug 3 '15 at 0:04













My thinking on this, as the question asks for what the Hobbits called the story, is "The story of Nine-fingered Frodo and the ring of Doom". Exactly as Sam (a Hobbit) says in the book

– DannyMcG
2 hours ago





My thinking on this, as the question asks for what the Hobbits called the story, is "The story of Nine-fingered Frodo and the ring of Doom". Exactly as Sam (a Hobbit) says in the book

– DannyMcG
2 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















55














The story is titled (in-universe) as:



enter image description here



enter image description here






             My Diary. My Unexpected Journey. There and Back Again. And
What Happened After.



                                Adventures of Five Hobbits. The Tale of the Great Ring, compiled by
                           Bilbo Baggins from his own observations and the accounts of his friends.



                                                      What we did in the War of the Ring.



                                                                      THE DOWNFALL

                                                                              OF THE

                                                                  LORD OF THE RINGS

                                                                            AND THE

                                                                  RETURN OF THE KING



                  (as seen by the Little People; being the memoirs of Bilbo and
Frodo of the Shire, supplemented by
                                                  the accounts of their friends
and the learning of the Wise.)



                                       Together with extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo
in Rivendell.




It seems at least reasonably likely that they would shorten the name of the story to "The Lord of the Rings" since that's a pretty catchy title (as evidenced by the fact that at least one other author (Tolkien) calls it that).






share|improve this answer





















  • 32





    How about "That Awful Affair of Mad Baggins and his Poor Nephew Who Went Off for a Year with Master Gamgee and Came Back a Broken Hobbit, Not to Mention the Other Two Who Were a Bit Peculiar Afterward"?

    – Beta
    Aug 2 '15 at 3:36








  • 14





    @Beta - "The year when horrible people turned up asking lotsa questions about Frodo, then turned our shire into crap"

    – Valorum
    Aug 2 '15 at 7:18













  • Where in the books is this title (with its revisions) given?

    – Raidri
    Aug 3 '15 at 9:36






  • 1





    Wow. This answer looks awful on mobile

    – Valorum
    Aug 3 '15 at 11:42








  • 1





    @raidri - Page 1002 of the ebook version books.google.co.uk/…

    – Valorum
    Aug 3 '15 at 11:47



















28














Richard has correctly identified the in-universe title of the story. However, that has nothing to do with the reason that Lord of the Rings is referred to by that name in the "Palantíri" essay. Christopher Tolkien explains the source of this essay in the introduction to Unfinished Tales:




For the second edition of The Lord of the Rings (1966) my father made substantial emendations to a passage in The Two Towers, III 11 "The Palantír" (three-volume hardback edition p. 203), and some others in the same connection in The Return of the King, V 7 "The Pyre of Denethor" (edition cited p. 132), though these emendations were not incorporated in the text until the second impression of the revised edition (1967). This section of the book is derived from writings on the palantíri associated with this revision; I have done no more than assemble them into a continuous essay.




(emphasis added)



In other words, this is not a slip on Tolkien's part; he's writing this essay as the author, to try and clarify his thoughts on a section of his book.



The book itself, or at any rate the manuscript conceived of as being the basis of the novel, is referred to by name only once by any character. As Frodo is consoling Sam at the Grey Havens, he tells Sam:




You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone...




That's the only reference to the book, by name, by a character in the book.






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    Very interesting. Thanks! I didn't think my copies of the LotR books were substantially revised from the original version. I guess I was wrong about that.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:10






  • 1





    Is there any indication of the use of the name in-universe?

    – Valorum
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:19






  • 3





    @Richard the book is only ever referred to as "the Red Book" in-universe.

    – Matt Gutting
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:40






  • 1





    @wadCheber see my update.

    – Matt Gutting
    Aug 2 '15 at 2:30






  • 1





    Elsewhere, the book is referred to as The Red Book of Westmarch, as it was kept in Westmarch later in the history.

    – Metamaterial girl
    Aug 2 '15 at 9:59












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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









55














The story is titled (in-universe) as:



enter image description here



enter image description here






             My Diary. My Unexpected Journey. There and Back Again. And
What Happened After.



                                Adventures of Five Hobbits. The Tale of the Great Ring, compiled by
                           Bilbo Baggins from his own observations and the accounts of his friends.



                                                      What we did in the War of the Ring.



                                                                      THE DOWNFALL

                                                                              OF THE

                                                                  LORD OF THE RINGS

                                                                            AND THE

                                                                  RETURN OF THE KING



                  (as seen by the Little People; being the memoirs of Bilbo and
Frodo of the Shire, supplemented by
                                                  the accounts of their friends
and the learning of the Wise.)



                                       Together with extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo
in Rivendell.




It seems at least reasonably likely that they would shorten the name of the story to "The Lord of the Rings" since that's a pretty catchy title (as evidenced by the fact that at least one other author (Tolkien) calls it that).






share|improve this answer





















  • 32





    How about "That Awful Affair of Mad Baggins and his Poor Nephew Who Went Off for a Year with Master Gamgee and Came Back a Broken Hobbit, Not to Mention the Other Two Who Were a Bit Peculiar Afterward"?

    – Beta
    Aug 2 '15 at 3:36








  • 14





    @Beta - "The year when horrible people turned up asking lotsa questions about Frodo, then turned our shire into crap"

    – Valorum
    Aug 2 '15 at 7:18













  • Where in the books is this title (with its revisions) given?

    – Raidri
    Aug 3 '15 at 9:36






  • 1





    Wow. This answer looks awful on mobile

    – Valorum
    Aug 3 '15 at 11:42








  • 1





    @raidri - Page 1002 of the ebook version books.google.co.uk/…

    – Valorum
    Aug 3 '15 at 11:47
















55














The story is titled (in-universe) as:



enter image description here



enter image description here






             My Diary. My Unexpected Journey. There and Back Again. And
What Happened After.



                                Adventures of Five Hobbits. The Tale of the Great Ring, compiled by
                           Bilbo Baggins from his own observations and the accounts of his friends.



                                                      What we did in the War of the Ring.



                                                                      THE DOWNFALL

                                                                              OF THE

                                                                  LORD OF THE RINGS

                                                                            AND THE

                                                                  RETURN OF THE KING



                  (as seen by the Little People; being the memoirs of Bilbo and
Frodo of the Shire, supplemented by
                                                  the accounts of their friends
and the learning of the Wise.)



                                       Together with extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo
in Rivendell.




It seems at least reasonably likely that they would shorten the name of the story to "The Lord of the Rings" since that's a pretty catchy title (as evidenced by the fact that at least one other author (Tolkien) calls it that).






share|improve this answer





















  • 32





    How about "That Awful Affair of Mad Baggins and his Poor Nephew Who Went Off for a Year with Master Gamgee and Came Back a Broken Hobbit, Not to Mention the Other Two Who Were a Bit Peculiar Afterward"?

    – Beta
    Aug 2 '15 at 3:36








  • 14





    @Beta - "The year when horrible people turned up asking lotsa questions about Frodo, then turned our shire into crap"

    – Valorum
    Aug 2 '15 at 7:18













  • Where in the books is this title (with its revisions) given?

    – Raidri
    Aug 3 '15 at 9:36






  • 1





    Wow. This answer looks awful on mobile

    – Valorum
    Aug 3 '15 at 11:42








  • 1





    @raidri - Page 1002 of the ebook version books.google.co.uk/…

    – Valorum
    Aug 3 '15 at 11:47














55












55








55







The story is titled (in-universe) as:



enter image description here



enter image description here






             My Diary. My Unexpected Journey. There and Back Again. And
What Happened After.



                                Adventures of Five Hobbits. The Tale of the Great Ring, compiled by
                           Bilbo Baggins from his own observations and the accounts of his friends.



                                                      What we did in the War of the Ring.



                                                                      THE DOWNFALL

                                                                              OF THE

                                                                  LORD OF THE RINGS

                                                                            AND THE

                                                                  RETURN OF THE KING



                  (as seen by the Little People; being the memoirs of Bilbo and
Frodo of the Shire, supplemented by
                                                  the accounts of their friends
and the learning of the Wise.)



                                       Together with extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo
in Rivendell.




It seems at least reasonably likely that they would shorten the name of the story to "The Lord of the Rings" since that's a pretty catchy title (as evidenced by the fact that at least one other author (Tolkien) calls it that).






share|improve this answer















The story is titled (in-universe) as:



enter image description here



enter image description here






             My Diary. My Unexpected Journey. There and Back Again. And
What Happened After.



                                Adventures of Five Hobbits. The Tale of the Great Ring, compiled by
                           Bilbo Baggins from his own observations and the accounts of his friends.



                                                      What we did in the War of the Ring.



                                                                      THE DOWNFALL

                                                                              OF THE

                                                                  LORD OF THE RINGS

                                                                            AND THE

                                                                  RETURN OF THE KING



                  (as seen by the Little People; being the memoirs of Bilbo and
Frodo of the Shire, supplemented by
                                                  the accounts of their friends
and the learning of the Wise.)



                                       Together with extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo
in Rivendell.




It seems at least reasonably likely that they would shorten the name of the story to "The Lord of the Rings" since that's a pretty catchy title (as evidenced by the fact that at least one other author (Tolkien) calls it that).







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 13 hours ago

























answered Aug 1 '15 at 16:42









ValorumValorum

414k11330123234




414k11330123234








  • 32





    How about "That Awful Affair of Mad Baggins and his Poor Nephew Who Went Off for a Year with Master Gamgee and Came Back a Broken Hobbit, Not to Mention the Other Two Who Were a Bit Peculiar Afterward"?

    – Beta
    Aug 2 '15 at 3:36








  • 14





    @Beta - "The year when horrible people turned up asking lotsa questions about Frodo, then turned our shire into crap"

    – Valorum
    Aug 2 '15 at 7:18













  • Where in the books is this title (with its revisions) given?

    – Raidri
    Aug 3 '15 at 9:36






  • 1





    Wow. This answer looks awful on mobile

    – Valorum
    Aug 3 '15 at 11:42








  • 1





    @raidri - Page 1002 of the ebook version books.google.co.uk/…

    – Valorum
    Aug 3 '15 at 11:47














  • 32





    How about "That Awful Affair of Mad Baggins and his Poor Nephew Who Went Off for a Year with Master Gamgee and Came Back a Broken Hobbit, Not to Mention the Other Two Who Were a Bit Peculiar Afterward"?

    – Beta
    Aug 2 '15 at 3:36








  • 14





    @Beta - "The year when horrible people turned up asking lotsa questions about Frodo, then turned our shire into crap"

    – Valorum
    Aug 2 '15 at 7:18













  • Where in the books is this title (with its revisions) given?

    – Raidri
    Aug 3 '15 at 9:36






  • 1





    Wow. This answer looks awful on mobile

    – Valorum
    Aug 3 '15 at 11:42








  • 1





    @raidri - Page 1002 of the ebook version books.google.co.uk/…

    – Valorum
    Aug 3 '15 at 11:47








32




32





How about "That Awful Affair of Mad Baggins and his Poor Nephew Who Went Off for a Year with Master Gamgee and Came Back a Broken Hobbit, Not to Mention the Other Two Who Were a Bit Peculiar Afterward"?

– Beta
Aug 2 '15 at 3:36







How about "That Awful Affair of Mad Baggins and his Poor Nephew Who Went Off for a Year with Master Gamgee and Came Back a Broken Hobbit, Not to Mention the Other Two Who Were a Bit Peculiar Afterward"?

– Beta
Aug 2 '15 at 3:36






14




14





@Beta - "The year when horrible people turned up asking lotsa questions about Frodo, then turned our shire into crap"

– Valorum
Aug 2 '15 at 7:18







@Beta - "The year when horrible people turned up asking lotsa questions about Frodo, then turned our shire into crap"

– Valorum
Aug 2 '15 at 7:18















Where in the books is this title (with its revisions) given?

– Raidri
Aug 3 '15 at 9:36





Where in the books is this title (with its revisions) given?

– Raidri
Aug 3 '15 at 9:36




1




1





Wow. This answer looks awful on mobile

– Valorum
Aug 3 '15 at 11:42







Wow. This answer looks awful on mobile

– Valorum
Aug 3 '15 at 11:42






1




1





@raidri - Page 1002 of the ebook version books.google.co.uk/…

– Valorum
Aug 3 '15 at 11:47





@raidri - Page 1002 of the ebook version books.google.co.uk/…

– Valorum
Aug 3 '15 at 11:47













28














Richard has correctly identified the in-universe title of the story. However, that has nothing to do with the reason that Lord of the Rings is referred to by that name in the "Palantíri" essay. Christopher Tolkien explains the source of this essay in the introduction to Unfinished Tales:




For the second edition of The Lord of the Rings (1966) my father made substantial emendations to a passage in The Two Towers, III 11 "The Palantír" (three-volume hardback edition p. 203), and some others in the same connection in The Return of the King, V 7 "The Pyre of Denethor" (edition cited p. 132), though these emendations were not incorporated in the text until the second impression of the revised edition (1967). This section of the book is derived from writings on the palantíri associated with this revision; I have done no more than assemble them into a continuous essay.




(emphasis added)



In other words, this is not a slip on Tolkien's part; he's writing this essay as the author, to try and clarify his thoughts on a section of his book.



The book itself, or at any rate the manuscript conceived of as being the basis of the novel, is referred to by name only once by any character. As Frodo is consoling Sam at the Grey Havens, he tells Sam:




You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone...




That's the only reference to the book, by name, by a character in the book.






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    Very interesting. Thanks! I didn't think my copies of the LotR books were substantially revised from the original version. I guess I was wrong about that.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:10






  • 1





    Is there any indication of the use of the name in-universe?

    – Valorum
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:19






  • 3





    @Richard the book is only ever referred to as "the Red Book" in-universe.

    – Matt Gutting
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:40






  • 1





    @wadCheber see my update.

    – Matt Gutting
    Aug 2 '15 at 2:30






  • 1





    Elsewhere, the book is referred to as The Red Book of Westmarch, as it was kept in Westmarch later in the history.

    – Metamaterial girl
    Aug 2 '15 at 9:59
















28














Richard has correctly identified the in-universe title of the story. However, that has nothing to do with the reason that Lord of the Rings is referred to by that name in the "Palantíri" essay. Christopher Tolkien explains the source of this essay in the introduction to Unfinished Tales:




For the second edition of The Lord of the Rings (1966) my father made substantial emendations to a passage in The Two Towers, III 11 "The Palantír" (three-volume hardback edition p. 203), and some others in the same connection in The Return of the King, V 7 "The Pyre of Denethor" (edition cited p. 132), though these emendations were not incorporated in the text until the second impression of the revised edition (1967). This section of the book is derived from writings on the palantíri associated with this revision; I have done no more than assemble them into a continuous essay.




(emphasis added)



In other words, this is not a slip on Tolkien's part; he's writing this essay as the author, to try and clarify his thoughts on a section of his book.



The book itself, or at any rate the manuscript conceived of as being the basis of the novel, is referred to by name only once by any character. As Frodo is consoling Sam at the Grey Havens, he tells Sam:




You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone...




That's the only reference to the book, by name, by a character in the book.






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    Very interesting. Thanks! I didn't think my copies of the LotR books were substantially revised from the original version. I guess I was wrong about that.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:10






  • 1





    Is there any indication of the use of the name in-universe?

    – Valorum
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:19






  • 3





    @Richard the book is only ever referred to as "the Red Book" in-universe.

    – Matt Gutting
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:40






  • 1





    @wadCheber see my update.

    – Matt Gutting
    Aug 2 '15 at 2:30






  • 1





    Elsewhere, the book is referred to as The Red Book of Westmarch, as it was kept in Westmarch later in the history.

    – Metamaterial girl
    Aug 2 '15 at 9:59














28












28








28







Richard has correctly identified the in-universe title of the story. However, that has nothing to do with the reason that Lord of the Rings is referred to by that name in the "Palantíri" essay. Christopher Tolkien explains the source of this essay in the introduction to Unfinished Tales:




For the second edition of The Lord of the Rings (1966) my father made substantial emendations to a passage in The Two Towers, III 11 "The Palantír" (three-volume hardback edition p. 203), and some others in the same connection in The Return of the King, V 7 "The Pyre of Denethor" (edition cited p. 132), though these emendations were not incorporated in the text until the second impression of the revised edition (1967). This section of the book is derived from writings on the palantíri associated with this revision; I have done no more than assemble them into a continuous essay.




(emphasis added)



In other words, this is not a slip on Tolkien's part; he's writing this essay as the author, to try and clarify his thoughts on a section of his book.



The book itself, or at any rate the manuscript conceived of as being the basis of the novel, is referred to by name only once by any character. As Frodo is consoling Sam at the Grey Havens, he tells Sam:




You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone...




That's the only reference to the book, by name, by a character in the book.






share|improve this answer















Richard has correctly identified the in-universe title of the story. However, that has nothing to do with the reason that Lord of the Rings is referred to by that name in the "Palantíri" essay. Christopher Tolkien explains the source of this essay in the introduction to Unfinished Tales:




For the second edition of The Lord of the Rings (1966) my father made substantial emendations to a passage in The Two Towers, III 11 "The Palantír" (three-volume hardback edition p. 203), and some others in the same connection in The Return of the King, V 7 "The Pyre of Denethor" (edition cited p. 132), though these emendations were not incorporated in the text until the second impression of the revised edition (1967). This section of the book is derived from writings on the palantíri associated with this revision; I have done no more than assemble them into a continuous essay.




(emphasis added)



In other words, this is not a slip on Tolkien's part; he's writing this essay as the author, to try and clarify his thoughts on a section of his book.



The book itself, or at any rate the manuscript conceived of as being the basis of the novel, is referred to by name only once by any character. As Frodo is consoling Sam at the Grey Havens, he tells Sam:




You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone...




That's the only reference to the book, by name, by a character in the book.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Aug 2 '15 at 10:29

























answered Aug 1 '15 at 21:06









Matt GuttingMatt Gutting

17.2k35689




17.2k35689








  • 1





    Very interesting. Thanks! I didn't think my copies of the LotR books were substantially revised from the original version. I guess I was wrong about that.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:10






  • 1





    Is there any indication of the use of the name in-universe?

    – Valorum
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:19






  • 3





    @Richard the book is only ever referred to as "the Red Book" in-universe.

    – Matt Gutting
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:40






  • 1





    @wadCheber see my update.

    – Matt Gutting
    Aug 2 '15 at 2:30






  • 1





    Elsewhere, the book is referred to as The Red Book of Westmarch, as it was kept in Westmarch later in the history.

    – Metamaterial girl
    Aug 2 '15 at 9:59














  • 1





    Very interesting. Thanks! I didn't think my copies of the LotR books were substantially revised from the original version. I guess I was wrong about that.

    – Wad Cheber
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:10






  • 1





    Is there any indication of the use of the name in-universe?

    – Valorum
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:19






  • 3





    @Richard the book is only ever referred to as "the Red Book" in-universe.

    – Matt Gutting
    Aug 1 '15 at 21:40






  • 1





    @wadCheber see my update.

    – Matt Gutting
    Aug 2 '15 at 2:30






  • 1





    Elsewhere, the book is referred to as The Red Book of Westmarch, as it was kept in Westmarch later in the history.

    – Metamaterial girl
    Aug 2 '15 at 9:59








1




1





Very interesting. Thanks! I didn't think my copies of the LotR books were substantially revised from the original version. I guess I was wrong about that.

– Wad Cheber
Aug 1 '15 at 21:10





Very interesting. Thanks! I didn't think my copies of the LotR books were substantially revised from the original version. I guess I was wrong about that.

– Wad Cheber
Aug 1 '15 at 21:10




1




1





Is there any indication of the use of the name in-universe?

– Valorum
Aug 1 '15 at 21:19





Is there any indication of the use of the name in-universe?

– Valorum
Aug 1 '15 at 21:19




3




3





@Richard the book is only ever referred to as "the Red Book" in-universe.

– Matt Gutting
Aug 1 '15 at 21:40





@Richard the book is only ever referred to as "the Red Book" in-universe.

– Matt Gutting
Aug 1 '15 at 21:40




1




1





@wadCheber see my update.

– Matt Gutting
Aug 2 '15 at 2:30





@wadCheber see my update.

– Matt Gutting
Aug 2 '15 at 2:30




1




1





Elsewhere, the book is referred to as The Red Book of Westmarch, as it was kept in Westmarch later in the history.

– Metamaterial girl
Aug 2 '15 at 9:59





Elsewhere, the book is referred to as The Red Book of Westmarch, as it was kept in Westmarch later in the history.

– Metamaterial girl
Aug 2 '15 at 9:59


















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