How is the claim “I am in New York only if I am in America” the same as "If I am in New York, then I am...












8















It makes absolutely zero sense to me.



It would make sense if "I am in America" is the antecedent and the consequent is the former.



Even though it wouldn't be sound, it would make logical sense.



I hope someone could explain it in a way someone would to a beginner in logic.



Thanks










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  • 2





    Already discussed many times on this site; see e.g. what-is-the-difference-between-necessary-and-sufficient as well as what-are-the-truth-tables-for-necessary-and-sufficient

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    12 hours ago













  • I made an edit which you may roll back or further edit.

    – Frank Hubeny
    11 hours ago






  • 12





    Are you perhaps interpreting the word "only" to be qualifying New York? A comma would help to clarify, as would an appropriate pause in the spoken sentence. In other words, do you understand this sentence to be "I am in New York, only if I am in America" or "I am in New York only, if I am in America." If you understood it to be the latter, then I agree that it is illogical. If you understood it to be the former, then hopefully the existing answers have helped you.

    – Richard II
    9 hours ago











  • Technically if you were in New York you might be in a foreign embassy and not in "America"

    – Mark Schultheiss
    5 hours ago











  • @MarkSchultheiss To take your technicality futher, are you still in new york if you are in an embassy? Is yes, then you are also in america (as you are saying the politics are irrelevant). If no, then you are also NOT in america

    – user34150
    5 hours ago


















8















It makes absolutely zero sense to me.



It would make sense if "I am in America" is the antecedent and the consequent is the former.



Even though it wouldn't be sound, it would make logical sense.



I hope someone could explain it in a way someone would to a beginner in logic.



Thanks










share|improve this question









New contributor




MinigameZ more is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • 2





    Already discussed many times on this site; see e.g. what-is-the-difference-between-necessary-and-sufficient as well as what-are-the-truth-tables-for-necessary-and-sufficient

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    12 hours ago













  • I made an edit which you may roll back or further edit.

    – Frank Hubeny
    11 hours ago






  • 12





    Are you perhaps interpreting the word "only" to be qualifying New York? A comma would help to clarify, as would an appropriate pause in the spoken sentence. In other words, do you understand this sentence to be "I am in New York, only if I am in America" or "I am in New York only, if I am in America." If you understood it to be the latter, then I agree that it is illogical. If you understood it to be the former, then hopefully the existing answers have helped you.

    – Richard II
    9 hours ago











  • Technically if you were in New York you might be in a foreign embassy and not in "America"

    – Mark Schultheiss
    5 hours ago











  • @MarkSchultheiss To take your technicality futher, are you still in new york if you are in an embassy? Is yes, then you are also in america (as you are saying the politics are irrelevant). If no, then you are also NOT in america

    – user34150
    5 hours ago
















8












8








8


1






It makes absolutely zero sense to me.



It would make sense if "I am in America" is the antecedent and the consequent is the former.



Even though it wouldn't be sound, it would make logical sense.



I hope someone could explain it in a way someone would to a beginner in logic.



Thanks










share|improve this question









New contributor




MinigameZ more is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












It makes absolutely zero sense to me.



It would make sense if "I am in America" is the antecedent and the consequent is the former.



Even though it wouldn't be sound, it would make logical sense.



I hope someone could explain it in a way someone would to a beginner in logic.



Thanks







logic






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MinigameZ more is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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edited 11 hours ago









Frank Hubeny

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asked 13 hours ago









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  • 2





    Already discussed many times on this site; see e.g. what-is-the-difference-between-necessary-and-sufficient as well as what-are-the-truth-tables-for-necessary-and-sufficient

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    12 hours ago













  • I made an edit which you may roll back or further edit.

    – Frank Hubeny
    11 hours ago






  • 12





    Are you perhaps interpreting the word "only" to be qualifying New York? A comma would help to clarify, as would an appropriate pause in the spoken sentence. In other words, do you understand this sentence to be "I am in New York, only if I am in America" or "I am in New York only, if I am in America." If you understood it to be the latter, then I agree that it is illogical. If you understood it to be the former, then hopefully the existing answers have helped you.

    – Richard II
    9 hours ago











  • Technically if you were in New York you might be in a foreign embassy and not in "America"

    – Mark Schultheiss
    5 hours ago











  • @MarkSchultheiss To take your technicality futher, are you still in new york if you are in an embassy? Is yes, then you are also in america (as you are saying the politics are irrelevant). If no, then you are also NOT in america

    – user34150
    5 hours ago
















  • 2





    Already discussed many times on this site; see e.g. what-is-the-difference-between-necessary-and-sufficient as well as what-are-the-truth-tables-for-necessary-and-sufficient

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    12 hours ago













  • I made an edit which you may roll back or further edit.

    – Frank Hubeny
    11 hours ago






  • 12





    Are you perhaps interpreting the word "only" to be qualifying New York? A comma would help to clarify, as would an appropriate pause in the spoken sentence. In other words, do you understand this sentence to be "I am in New York, only if I am in America" or "I am in New York only, if I am in America." If you understood it to be the latter, then I agree that it is illogical. If you understood it to be the former, then hopefully the existing answers have helped you.

    – Richard II
    9 hours ago











  • Technically if you were in New York you might be in a foreign embassy and not in "America"

    – Mark Schultheiss
    5 hours ago











  • @MarkSchultheiss To take your technicality futher, are you still in new york if you are in an embassy? Is yes, then you are also in america (as you are saying the politics are irrelevant). If no, then you are also NOT in america

    – user34150
    5 hours ago










2




2





Already discussed many times on this site; see e.g. what-is-the-difference-between-necessary-and-sufficient as well as what-are-the-truth-tables-for-necessary-and-sufficient

– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
12 hours ago







Already discussed many times on this site; see e.g. what-is-the-difference-between-necessary-and-sufficient as well as what-are-the-truth-tables-for-necessary-and-sufficient

– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
12 hours ago















I made an edit which you may roll back or further edit.

– Frank Hubeny
11 hours ago





I made an edit which you may roll back or further edit.

– Frank Hubeny
11 hours ago




12




12





Are you perhaps interpreting the word "only" to be qualifying New York? A comma would help to clarify, as would an appropriate pause in the spoken sentence. In other words, do you understand this sentence to be "I am in New York, only if I am in America" or "I am in New York only, if I am in America." If you understood it to be the latter, then I agree that it is illogical. If you understood it to be the former, then hopefully the existing answers have helped you.

– Richard II
9 hours ago





Are you perhaps interpreting the word "only" to be qualifying New York? A comma would help to clarify, as would an appropriate pause in the spoken sentence. In other words, do you understand this sentence to be "I am in New York, only if I am in America" or "I am in New York only, if I am in America." If you understood it to be the latter, then I agree that it is illogical. If you understood it to be the former, then hopefully the existing answers have helped you.

– Richard II
9 hours ago













Technically if you were in New York you might be in a foreign embassy and not in "America"

– Mark Schultheiss
5 hours ago





Technically if you were in New York you might be in a foreign embassy and not in "America"

– Mark Schultheiss
5 hours ago













@MarkSchultheiss To take your technicality futher, are you still in new york if you are in an embassy? Is yes, then you are also in america (as you are saying the politics are irrelevant). If no, then you are also NOT in america

– user34150
5 hours ago







@MarkSchultheiss To take your technicality futher, are you still in new york if you are in an embassy? Is yes, then you are also in america (as you are saying the politics are irrelevant). If no, then you are also NOT in america

– user34150
5 hours ago












8 Answers
8






active

oldest

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16














Consider the sentence:




If I am in America then I am in New York.




One could make the antecedent, "I am in America", true by being in Chicago. But then the consequent, "I am in New York", would be false. So this conditional would be false unless we are given other information, such as travel plans, in addition to knowing that I am in America.



However, consider this sentence:




If I am in New York then I am in America.




Now whenever the antecedent, "I am in New York", is true, then so is the consequent, "I am in America". I don't need any additional information for that conditional to be true.



It would be similar for the following sentence:




I am in New York only if I am in America.




Here we are given that "I am in New York" and conclude that "I am in America". Except for English style this means the same as the previous sentence.



The authors of forall x provide a similar example using Paris and France in section "5.4 Condititional". They also provide this symbolization rule:




A sentence can be symbolized as A → B if it can be
paraphrased in English as ‘If A, then B’ or ‘A only if B’.






P. D. Magnus, Tim Button with additions by J. Robert Loftis remixed and revised by Aaron Thomas-Bolduc, Richard Zach, forallx Calgary Remix: An Introduction to Formal Logic, Fall 2018 bis. http://forallx.openlogicproject.org/






share|improve this answer
























  • This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

    – Brilliand
    4 hours ago






  • 1





    I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

    – Unrelated String
    1 hour ago



















14














This is an example of the confusion inherent in switching between a natural language like English, and a formal language of logic.



The formulation




X only if Y




is rare in spoken English, but perfectly grammatical, and it typically has a logical meaning equivalent to




If X then Y




Both statements are saying you can't ever have X without Y. However, at first glance it looks closer to




If Y then X




which is entirely different. This represents how English has many different ways of saying the same thing (with incidental connotations and subtleties of meaning that are completely stripped out when you translate to a formal language).






share|improve this answer
























  • I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

    – Corvus B
    46 mins ago













  • @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

    – Harry Johnston
    34 mins ago











  • @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

    – Corvus B
    9 mins ago





















6














"A only if B" and "if A, then B" mean the same.



The truth-condition for "if A, then B" excludes the case when A is True and B is False.



"A only if B" means that we cannot have A without B.



The two are equivalent.



See necessary and sufficient.






share|improve this answer

































    3














    I see two interpretations of the sentence here. They mean logically different things. In both cases "only" is interpreted as "must be true and cannot be false".




    I am in New York (only if I am in America).



    If I am in New York, it can only be true that I am in America.



    New York => America.




    This is the interpretation everyone else is responding to. It is logically true.




    I can be in (New York only) if I am in America.



    If I am in America, then it can only be true that I am in New York.



    America => New York.




    This one is not logically true, you could be in Iowa.






    share|improve this answer








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    • My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

      – Brilliand
      4 hours ago



















    3














    The contrapositive of both statements is :



    If I am not in America, then I cannot be in New York.


    A conditional statement is logically equivalent to its contrapositive. It means both your statements are equivalent since they have the same contrapositive.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1





      I think this answer is correct.

      – Mark Andrews
      3 hours ago



















    2














    These claims have distinctly different connotations. From a pure formal-logic perspective, the "X only if Y" is equivalent to "Y or not X" which is the same as "X implies Y", which is the same as "if X then Y". However, natural language carries more information than its simple-minded reduction to predicate logic.



    The second formulation "If I am in NY then I am in USA" sounds like a simple statement of a containment relationship: it implies that "I" am an unbound variable and informs the listener that NY is within the USA.



    The first formulation connotes something about the speaker's mental state: he entertains the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) of being outside the USA in a place confusingly-similar to NY.






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      2














      LOL - The two statements are not equivalent.



      You could be in New York - Lazio - Italy






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      • 1





        That means that "If I'm in New York then I'm in America" is false, but it doesn't mean that it's not equivalent to "I'm in New York only if I'm in America".

        – Eliran
        4 hours ago











      • While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review

        – Mark Andrews
        2 hours ago



















      1














      One way of analyzing the statements is to look at a truth table. Let's make the following definitions:



      A := "I am in New York"

      B := "I am in America".



      X := "I am in New York only if I am in America"

      Y := "If I am in New York, then I am in America"



      If both A and B are true, then X is true. We can write that as X(TT) = T. We have X(TF) = F (If you are in New York but not in America, then the statement "I am in New York only if I am in America" must be false). X(FT) = T and X(FF) = T; X makes a statement about what has to be true when you're in New York, so if you're not in New York, then X isn't telling you anything so it can't be proven wrong.



      If you analyze Y, you'll find that all the values are the same:

      X(TT) = Y(TT) = T

      X(TF) = Y(TF) = F

      X(FT) = Y(FT) = T

      X(FF) = Y(FF) = T



      Since no matter the truth values of A and B, X has the same truth value as Y, X and Y are equivalent; if you have two statements such that it's not possible for one to be true and the other false, then the two statements are saying essentially the same thing.



      One thing to keep in mind is that in Formal Logic, statements of the form "If S1 then S2" are considered true any time S1 is false; that is, "If S1 then S2" is interpreted as meaning "Whenever S1 is true, S2 is also true". Because of this, "If S1 then S2" is equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true" (if S1 is false, then the statement is automatically true, because it doesn't say anything about the situation of S1 being true). And "S1 only if S2 " is also equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true".






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        8 Answers
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        8 Answers
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        16














        Consider the sentence:




        If I am in America then I am in New York.




        One could make the antecedent, "I am in America", true by being in Chicago. But then the consequent, "I am in New York", would be false. So this conditional would be false unless we are given other information, such as travel plans, in addition to knowing that I am in America.



        However, consider this sentence:




        If I am in New York then I am in America.




        Now whenever the antecedent, "I am in New York", is true, then so is the consequent, "I am in America". I don't need any additional information for that conditional to be true.



        It would be similar for the following sentence:




        I am in New York only if I am in America.




        Here we are given that "I am in New York" and conclude that "I am in America". Except for English style this means the same as the previous sentence.



        The authors of forall x provide a similar example using Paris and France in section "5.4 Condititional". They also provide this symbolization rule:




        A sentence can be symbolized as A → B if it can be
        paraphrased in English as ‘If A, then B’ or ‘A only if B’.






        P. D. Magnus, Tim Button with additions by J. Robert Loftis remixed and revised by Aaron Thomas-Bolduc, Richard Zach, forallx Calgary Remix: An Introduction to Formal Logic, Fall 2018 bis. http://forallx.openlogicproject.org/






        share|improve this answer
























        • This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

          – Brilliand
          4 hours ago






        • 1





          I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

          – Unrelated String
          1 hour ago
















        16














        Consider the sentence:




        If I am in America then I am in New York.




        One could make the antecedent, "I am in America", true by being in Chicago. But then the consequent, "I am in New York", would be false. So this conditional would be false unless we are given other information, such as travel plans, in addition to knowing that I am in America.



        However, consider this sentence:




        If I am in New York then I am in America.




        Now whenever the antecedent, "I am in New York", is true, then so is the consequent, "I am in America". I don't need any additional information for that conditional to be true.



        It would be similar for the following sentence:




        I am in New York only if I am in America.




        Here we are given that "I am in New York" and conclude that "I am in America". Except for English style this means the same as the previous sentence.



        The authors of forall x provide a similar example using Paris and France in section "5.4 Condititional". They also provide this symbolization rule:




        A sentence can be symbolized as A → B if it can be
        paraphrased in English as ‘If A, then B’ or ‘A only if B’.






        P. D. Magnus, Tim Button with additions by J. Robert Loftis remixed and revised by Aaron Thomas-Bolduc, Richard Zach, forallx Calgary Remix: An Introduction to Formal Logic, Fall 2018 bis. http://forallx.openlogicproject.org/






        share|improve this answer
























        • This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

          – Brilliand
          4 hours ago






        • 1





          I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

          – Unrelated String
          1 hour ago














        16












        16








        16







        Consider the sentence:




        If I am in America then I am in New York.




        One could make the antecedent, "I am in America", true by being in Chicago. But then the consequent, "I am in New York", would be false. So this conditional would be false unless we are given other information, such as travel plans, in addition to knowing that I am in America.



        However, consider this sentence:




        If I am in New York then I am in America.




        Now whenever the antecedent, "I am in New York", is true, then so is the consequent, "I am in America". I don't need any additional information for that conditional to be true.



        It would be similar for the following sentence:




        I am in New York only if I am in America.




        Here we are given that "I am in New York" and conclude that "I am in America". Except for English style this means the same as the previous sentence.



        The authors of forall x provide a similar example using Paris and France in section "5.4 Condititional". They also provide this symbolization rule:




        A sentence can be symbolized as A → B if it can be
        paraphrased in English as ‘If A, then B’ or ‘A only if B’.






        P. D. Magnus, Tim Button with additions by J. Robert Loftis remixed and revised by Aaron Thomas-Bolduc, Richard Zach, forallx Calgary Remix: An Introduction to Formal Logic, Fall 2018 bis. http://forallx.openlogicproject.org/






        share|improve this answer













        Consider the sentence:




        If I am in America then I am in New York.




        One could make the antecedent, "I am in America", true by being in Chicago. But then the consequent, "I am in New York", would be false. So this conditional would be false unless we are given other information, such as travel plans, in addition to knowing that I am in America.



        However, consider this sentence:




        If I am in New York then I am in America.




        Now whenever the antecedent, "I am in New York", is true, then so is the consequent, "I am in America". I don't need any additional information for that conditional to be true.



        It would be similar for the following sentence:




        I am in New York only if I am in America.




        Here we are given that "I am in New York" and conclude that "I am in America". Except for English style this means the same as the previous sentence.



        The authors of forall x provide a similar example using Paris and France in section "5.4 Condititional". They also provide this symbolization rule:




        A sentence can be symbolized as A → B if it can be
        paraphrased in English as ‘If A, then B’ or ‘A only if B’.






        P. D. Magnus, Tim Button with additions by J. Robert Loftis remixed and revised by Aaron Thomas-Bolduc, Richard Zach, forallx Calgary Remix: An Introduction to Formal Logic, Fall 2018 bis. http://forallx.openlogicproject.org/







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 11 hours ago









        Frank HubenyFrank Hubeny

        9,90251555




        9,90251555













        • This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

          – Brilliand
          4 hours ago






        • 1





          I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

          – Unrelated String
          1 hour ago



















        • This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

          – Brilliand
          4 hours ago






        • 1





          I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

          – Unrelated String
          1 hour ago

















        This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

        – Brilliand
        4 hours ago





        This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

        – Brilliand
        4 hours ago




        1




        1





        I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

        – Unrelated String
        1 hour ago





        I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

        – Unrelated String
        1 hour ago











        14














        This is an example of the confusion inherent in switching between a natural language like English, and a formal language of logic.



        The formulation




        X only if Y




        is rare in spoken English, but perfectly grammatical, and it typically has a logical meaning equivalent to




        If X then Y




        Both statements are saying you can't ever have X without Y. However, at first glance it looks closer to




        If Y then X




        which is entirely different. This represents how English has many different ways of saying the same thing (with incidental connotations and subtleties of meaning that are completely stripped out when you translate to a formal language).






        share|improve this answer
























        • I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

          – Corvus B
          46 mins ago













        • @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

          – Harry Johnston
          34 mins ago











        • @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

          – Corvus B
          9 mins ago


















        14














        This is an example of the confusion inherent in switching between a natural language like English, and a formal language of logic.



        The formulation




        X only if Y




        is rare in spoken English, but perfectly grammatical, and it typically has a logical meaning equivalent to




        If X then Y




        Both statements are saying you can't ever have X without Y. However, at first glance it looks closer to




        If Y then X




        which is entirely different. This represents how English has many different ways of saying the same thing (with incidental connotations and subtleties of meaning that are completely stripped out when you translate to a formal language).






        share|improve this answer
























        • I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

          – Corvus B
          46 mins ago













        • @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

          – Harry Johnston
          34 mins ago











        • @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

          – Corvus B
          9 mins ago
















        14












        14








        14







        This is an example of the confusion inherent in switching between a natural language like English, and a formal language of logic.



        The formulation




        X only if Y




        is rare in spoken English, but perfectly grammatical, and it typically has a logical meaning equivalent to




        If X then Y




        Both statements are saying you can't ever have X without Y. However, at first glance it looks closer to




        If Y then X




        which is entirely different. This represents how English has many different ways of saying the same thing (with incidental connotations and subtleties of meaning that are completely stripped out when you translate to a formal language).






        share|improve this answer













        This is an example of the confusion inherent in switching between a natural language like English, and a formal language of logic.



        The formulation




        X only if Y




        is rare in spoken English, but perfectly grammatical, and it typically has a logical meaning equivalent to




        If X then Y




        Both statements are saying you can't ever have X without Y. However, at first glance it looks closer to




        If Y then X




        which is entirely different. This represents how English has many different ways of saying the same thing (with incidental connotations and subtleties of meaning that are completely stripped out when you translate to a formal language).







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 10 hours ago









        Chris SunamiChris Sunami

        21.2k12964




        21.2k12964













        • I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

          – Corvus B
          46 mins ago













        • @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

          – Harry Johnston
          34 mins ago











        • @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

          – Corvus B
          9 mins ago





















        • I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

          – Corvus B
          46 mins ago













        • @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

          – Harry Johnston
          34 mins ago











        • @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

          – Corvus B
          9 mins ago



















        I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

        – Corvus B
        46 mins ago







        I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

        – Corvus B
        46 mins ago















        @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

        – Harry Johnston
        34 mins ago





        @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

        – Harry Johnston
        34 mins ago













        @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

        – Corvus B
        9 mins ago







        @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

        – Corvus B
        9 mins ago













        6














        "A only if B" and "if A, then B" mean the same.



        The truth-condition for "if A, then B" excludes the case when A is True and B is False.



        "A only if B" means that we cannot have A without B.



        The two are equivalent.



        See necessary and sufficient.






        share|improve this answer






























          6














          "A only if B" and "if A, then B" mean the same.



          The truth-condition for "if A, then B" excludes the case when A is True and B is False.



          "A only if B" means that we cannot have A without B.



          The two are equivalent.



          See necessary and sufficient.






          share|improve this answer




























            6












            6








            6







            "A only if B" and "if A, then B" mean the same.



            The truth-condition for "if A, then B" excludes the case when A is True and B is False.



            "A only if B" means that we cannot have A without B.



            The two are equivalent.



            See necessary and sufficient.






            share|improve this answer















            "A only if B" and "if A, then B" mean the same.



            The truth-condition for "if A, then B" excludes the case when A is True and B is False.



            "A only if B" means that we cannot have A without B.



            The two are equivalent.



            See necessary and sufficient.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 10 hours ago

























            answered 12 hours ago









            Mauro ALLEGRANZAMauro ALLEGRANZA

            29.5k22065




            29.5k22065























                3














                I see two interpretations of the sentence here. They mean logically different things. In both cases "only" is interpreted as "must be true and cannot be false".




                I am in New York (only if I am in America).



                If I am in New York, it can only be true that I am in America.



                New York => America.




                This is the interpretation everyone else is responding to. It is logically true.




                I can be in (New York only) if I am in America.



                If I am in America, then it can only be true that I am in New York.



                America => New York.




                This one is not logically true, you could be in Iowa.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




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                • My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

                  – Brilliand
                  4 hours ago
















                3














                I see two interpretations of the sentence here. They mean logically different things. In both cases "only" is interpreted as "must be true and cannot be false".




                I am in New York (only if I am in America).



                If I am in New York, it can only be true that I am in America.



                New York => America.




                This is the interpretation everyone else is responding to. It is logically true.




                I can be in (New York only) if I am in America.



                If I am in America, then it can only be true that I am in New York.



                America => New York.




                This one is not logically true, you could be in Iowa.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                usul is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                • My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

                  – Brilliand
                  4 hours ago














                3












                3








                3







                I see two interpretations of the sentence here. They mean logically different things. In both cases "only" is interpreted as "must be true and cannot be false".




                I am in New York (only if I am in America).



                If I am in New York, it can only be true that I am in America.



                New York => America.




                This is the interpretation everyone else is responding to. It is logically true.




                I can be in (New York only) if I am in America.



                If I am in America, then it can only be true that I am in New York.



                America => New York.




                This one is not logically true, you could be in Iowa.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                usul is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.










                I see two interpretations of the sentence here. They mean logically different things. In both cases "only" is interpreted as "must be true and cannot be false".




                I am in New York (only if I am in America).



                If I am in New York, it can only be true that I am in America.



                New York => America.




                This is the interpretation everyone else is responding to. It is logically true.




                I can be in (New York only) if I am in America.



                If I am in America, then it can only be true that I am in New York.



                America => New York.




                This one is not logically true, you could be in Iowa.







                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                usul is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer






                New contributor




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                answered 8 hours ago









                usulusul

                1312




                1312




                New contributor




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                New contributor





                usul is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                • My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

                  – Brilliand
                  4 hours ago



















                • My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

                  – Brilliand
                  4 hours ago

















                My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

                – Brilliand
                4 hours ago





                My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

                – Brilliand
                4 hours ago











                3














                The contrapositive of both statements is :



                If I am not in America, then I cannot be in New York.


                A conditional statement is logically equivalent to its contrapositive. It means both your statements are equivalent since they have the same contrapositive.






                share|improve this answer



















                • 1





                  I think this answer is correct.

                  – Mark Andrews
                  3 hours ago
















                3














                The contrapositive of both statements is :



                If I am not in America, then I cannot be in New York.


                A conditional statement is logically equivalent to its contrapositive. It means both your statements are equivalent since they have the same contrapositive.






                share|improve this answer



















                • 1





                  I think this answer is correct.

                  – Mark Andrews
                  3 hours ago














                3












                3








                3







                The contrapositive of both statements is :



                If I am not in America, then I cannot be in New York.


                A conditional statement is logically equivalent to its contrapositive. It means both your statements are equivalent since they have the same contrapositive.






                share|improve this answer













                The contrapositive of both statements is :



                If I am not in America, then I cannot be in New York.


                A conditional statement is logically equivalent to its contrapositive. It means both your statements are equivalent since they have the same contrapositive.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 4 hours ago









                Eric DuminilEric Duminil

                92649




                92649








                • 1





                  I think this answer is correct.

                  – Mark Andrews
                  3 hours ago














                • 1





                  I think this answer is correct.

                  – Mark Andrews
                  3 hours ago








                1




                1





                I think this answer is correct.

                – Mark Andrews
                3 hours ago





                I think this answer is correct.

                – Mark Andrews
                3 hours ago











                2














                These claims have distinctly different connotations. From a pure formal-logic perspective, the "X only if Y" is equivalent to "Y or not X" which is the same as "X implies Y", which is the same as "if X then Y". However, natural language carries more information than its simple-minded reduction to predicate logic.



                The second formulation "If I am in NY then I am in USA" sounds like a simple statement of a containment relationship: it implies that "I" am an unbound variable and informs the listener that NY is within the USA.



                The first formulation connotes something about the speaker's mental state: he entertains the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) of being outside the USA in a place confusingly-similar to NY.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                Ian is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                  2














                  These claims have distinctly different connotations. From a pure formal-logic perspective, the "X only if Y" is equivalent to "Y or not X" which is the same as "X implies Y", which is the same as "if X then Y". However, natural language carries more information than its simple-minded reduction to predicate logic.



                  The second formulation "If I am in NY then I am in USA" sounds like a simple statement of a containment relationship: it implies that "I" am an unbound variable and informs the listener that NY is within the USA.



                  The first formulation connotes something about the speaker's mental state: he entertains the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) of being outside the USA in a place confusingly-similar to NY.






                  share|improve this answer








                  New contributor




                  Ian is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                    2












                    2








                    2







                    These claims have distinctly different connotations. From a pure formal-logic perspective, the "X only if Y" is equivalent to "Y or not X" which is the same as "X implies Y", which is the same as "if X then Y". However, natural language carries more information than its simple-minded reduction to predicate logic.



                    The second formulation "If I am in NY then I am in USA" sounds like a simple statement of a containment relationship: it implies that "I" am an unbound variable and informs the listener that NY is within the USA.



                    The first formulation connotes something about the speaker's mental state: he entertains the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) of being outside the USA in a place confusingly-similar to NY.






                    share|improve this answer








                    New contributor




                    Ian is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.










                    These claims have distinctly different connotations. From a pure formal-logic perspective, the "X only if Y" is equivalent to "Y or not X" which is the same as "X implies Y", which is the same as "if X then Y". However, natural language carries more information than its simple-minded reduction to predicate logic.



                    The second formulation "If I am in NY then I am in USA" sounds like a simple statement of a containment relationship: it implies that "I" am an unbound variable and informs the listener that NY is within the USA.



                    The first formulation connotes something about the speaker's mental state: he entertains the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) of being outside the USA in a place confusingly-similar to NY.







                    share|improve this answer








                    New contributor




                    Ian is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer






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                    answered 5 hours ago









                    IanIan

                    1212




                    1212




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                    New contributor





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                        2














                        LOL - The two statements are not equivalent.



                        You could be in New York - Lazio - Italy






                        share|improve this answer








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                        • 1





                          That means that "If I'm in New York then I'm in America" is false, but it doesn't mean that it's not equivalent to "I'm in New York only if I'm in America".

                          – Eliran
                          4 hours ago











                        • While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review

                          – Mark Andrews
                          2 hours ago
















                        2














                        LOL - The two statements are not equivalent.



                        You could be in New York - Lazio - Italy






                        share|improve this answer








                        New contributor




                        MaxW is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                        • 1





                          That means that "If I'm in New York then I'm in America" is false, but it doesn't mean that it's not equivalent to "I'm in New York only if I'm in America".

                          – Eliran
                          4 hours ago











                        • While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review

                          – Mark Andrews
                          2 hours ago














                        2












                        2








                        2







                        LOL - The two statements are not equivalent.



                        You could be in New York - Lazio - Italy






                        share|improve this answer








                        New contributor




                        MaxW is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                        LOL - The two statements are not equivalent.



                        You could be in New York - Lazio - Italy







                        share|improve this answer








                        New contributor




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                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer






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                        answered 4 hours ago









                        MaxWMaxW

                        291




                        291




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                        • 1





                          That means that "If I'm in New York then I'm in America" is false, but it doesn't mean that it's not equivalent to "I'm in New York only if I'm in America".

                          – Eliran
                          4 hours ago











                        • While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review

                          – Mark Andrews
                          2 hours ago














                        • 1





                          That means that "If I'm in New York then I'm in America" is false, but it doesn't mean that it's not equivalent to "I'm in New York only if I'm in America".

                          – Eliran
                          4 hours ago











                        • While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review

                          – Mark Andrews
                          2 hours ago








                        1




                        1





                        That means that "If I'm in New York then I'm in America" is false, but it doesn't mean that it's not equivalent to "I'm in New York only if I'm in America".

                        – Eliran
                        4 hours ago





                        That means that "If I'm in New York then I'm in America" is false, but it doesn't mean that it's not equivalent to "I'm in New York only if I'm in America".

                        – Eliran
                        4 hours ago













                        While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review

                        – Mark Andrews
                        2 hours ago





                        While this link may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of the answer here and provide the link for reference. Link-only answers can become invalid if the linked page changes. - From Review

                        – Mark Andrews
                        2 hours ago











                        1














                        One way of analyzing the statements is to look at a truth table. Let's make the following definitions:



                        A := "I am in New York"

                        B := "I am in America".



                        X := "I am in New York only if I am in America"

                        Y := "If I am in New York, then I am in America"



                        If both A and B are true, then X is true. We can write that as X(TT) = T. We have X(TF) = F (If you are in New York but not in America, then the statement "I am in New York only if I am in America" must be false). X(FT) = T and X(FF) = T; X makes a statement about what has to be true when you're in New York, so if you're not in New York, then X isn't telling you anything so it can't be proven wrong.



                        If you analyze Y, you'll find that all the values are the same:

                        X(TT) = Y(TT) = T

                        X(TF) = Y(TF) = F

                        X(FT) = Y(FT) = T

                        X(FF) = Y(FF) = T



                        Since no matter the truth values of A and B, X has the same truth value as Y, X and Y are equivalent; if you have two statements such that it's not possible for one to be true and the other false, then the two statements are saying essentially the same thing.



                        One thing to keep in mind is that in Formal Logic, statements of the form "If S1 then S2" are considered true any time S1 is false; that is, "If S1 then S2" is interpreted as meaning "Whenever S1 is true, S2 is also true". Because of this, "If S1 then S2" is equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true" (if S1 is false, then the statement is automatically true, because it doesn't say anything about the situation of S1 being true). And "S1 only if S2 " is also equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true".






                        share|improve this answer




























                          1














                          One way of analyzing the statements is to look at a truth table. Let's make the following definitions:



                          A := "I am in New York"

                          B := "I am in America".



                          X := "I am in New York only if I am in America"

                          Y := "If I am in New York, then I am in America"



                          If both A and B are true, then X is true. We can write that as X(TT) = T. We have X(TF) = F (If you are in New York but not in America, then the statement "I am in New York only if I am in America" must be false). X(FT) = T and X(FF) = T; X makes a statement about what has to be true when you're in New York, so if you're not in New York, then X isn't telling you anything so it can't be proven wrong.



                          If you analyze Y, you'll find that all the values are the same:

                          X(TT) = Y(TT) = T

                          X(TF) = Y(TF) = F

                          X(FT) = Y(FT) = T

                          X(FF) = Y(FF) = T



                          Since no matter the truth values of A and B, X has the same truth value as Y, X and Y are equivalent; if you have two statements such that it's not possible for one to be true and the other false, then the two statements are saying essentially the same thing.



                          One thing to keep in mind is that in Formal Logic, statements of the form "If S1 then S2" are considered true any time S1 is false; that is, "If S1 then S2" is interpreted as meaning "Whenever S1 is true, S2 is also true". Because of this, "If S1 then S2" is equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true" (if S1 is false, then the statement is automatically true, because it doesn't say anything about the situation of S1 being true). And "S1 only if S2 " is also equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true".






                          share|improve this answer


























                            1












                            1








                            1







                            One way of analyzing the statements is to look at a truth table. Let's make the following definitions:



                            A := "I am in New York"

                            B := "I am in America".



                            X := "I am in New York only if I am in America"

                            Y := "If I am in New York, then I am in America"



                            If both A and B are true, then X is true. We can write that as X(TT) = T. We have X(TF) = F (If you are in New York but not in America, then the statement "I am in New York only if I am in America" must be false). X(FT) = T and X(FF) = T; X makes a statement about what has to be true when you're in New York, so if you're not in New York, then X isn't telling you anything so it can't be proven wrong.



                            If you analyze Y, you'll find that all the values are the same:

                            X(TT) = Y(TT) = T

                            X(TF) = Y(TF) = F

                            X(FT) = Y(FT) = T

                            X(FF) = Y(FF) = T



                            Since no matter the truth values of A and B, X has the same truth value as Y, X and Y are equivalent; if you have two statements such that it's not possible for one to be true and the other false, then the two statements are saying essentially the same thing.



                            One thing to keep in mind is that in Formal Logic, statements of the form "If S1 then S2" are considered true any time S1 is false; that is, "If S1 then S2" is interpreted as meaning "Whenever S1 is true, S2 is also true". Because of this, "If S1 then S2" is equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true" (if S1 is false, then the statement is automatically true, because it doesn't say anything about the situation of S1 being true). And "S1 only if S2 " is also equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true".






                            share|improve this answer













                            One way of analyzing the statements is to look at a truth table. Let's make the following definitions:



                            A := "I am in New York"

                            B := "I am in America".



                            X := "I am in New York only if I am in America"

                            Y := "If I am in New York, then I am in America"



                            If both A and B are true, then X is true. We can write that as X(TT) = T. We have X(TF) = F (If you are in New York but not in America, then the statement "I am in New York only if I am in America" must be false). X(FT) = T and X(FF) = T; X makes a statement about what has to be true when you're in New York, so if you're not in New York, then X isn't telling you anything so it can't be proven wrong.



                            If you analyze Y, you'll find that all the values are the same:

                            X(TT) = Y(TT) = T

                            X(TF) = Y(TF) = F

                            X(FT) = Y(FT) = T

                            X(FF) = Y(FF) = T



                            Since no matter the truth values of A and B, X has the same truth value as Y, X and Y are equivalent; if you have two statements such that it's not possible for one to be true and the other false, then the two statements are saying essentially the same thing.



                            One thing to keep in mind is that in Formal Logic, statements of the form "If S1 then S2" are considered true any time S1 is false; that is, "If S1 then S2" is interpreted as meaning "Whenever S1 is true, S2 is also true". Because of this, "If S1 then S2" is equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true" (if S1 is false, then the statement is automatically true, because it doesn't say anything about the situation of S1 being true). And "S1 only if S2 " is also equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true".







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 3 hours ago









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