What defines a key change?












0















I'm writing a song in F Major key.



I have a chord progression that goes Like



4/4



C7 - C#dim - Dm - Dm



( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi )



After this four measures, I wanted to change key to Dm for a moment.



So thinking the last measure's Dm (Vi) as a tonic (i) for the next four measure,



I went



A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5



which is the same ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key.



But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?



or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is



V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5



what are the details that establish a key change ?










share|improve this question

























  • Is this school homework or something? Why do you care about what the key "really" is? Who's going to act upon your key classification?

    – piiperi
    12 hours ago











  • @piiperi no I don't have any teachers. because I like to know everything going on in my music

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    I'm voting to close because, as written, this question is generating some confusion as to what the OP is really asking.

    – Alex Basson
    11 hours ago






  • 3





    @AlexBasson no what I'm asking is very simple. did I really went to Dm key when I went to the A7 part

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    11 hours ago











  • @HyunYooPark If Dm feels to you like the tonic chord at that point, then you went to Dm. Try it to find out how you feel. It's a practical, not theoretical exercise. Note that how you play the chords can affect the result.

    – piiperi
    10 hours ago
















0















I'm writing a song in F Major key.



I have a chord progression that goes Like



4/4



C7 - C#dim - Dm - Dm



( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi )



After this four measures, I wanted to change key to Dm for a moment.



So thinking the last measure's Dm (Vi) as a tonic (i) for the next four measure,



I went



A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5



which is the same ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key.



But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?



or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is



V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5



what are the details that establish a key change ?










share|improve this question

























  • Is this school homework or something? Why do you care about what the key "really" is? Who's going to act upon your key classification?

    – piiperi
    12 hours ago











  • @piiperi no I don't have any teachers. because I like to know everything going on in my music

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    I'm voting to close because, as written, this question is generating some confusion as to what the OP is really asking.

    – Alex Basson
    11 hours ago






  • 3





    @AlexBasson no what I'm asking is very simple. did I really went to Dm key when I went to the A7 part

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    11 hours ago











  • @HyunYooPark If Dm feels to you like the tonic chord at that point, then you went to Dm. Try it to find out how you feel. It's a practical, not theoretical exercise. Note that how you play the chords can affect the result.

    – piiperi
    10 hours ago














0












0








0








I'm writing a song in F Major key.



I have a chord progression that goes Like



4/4



C7 - C#dim - Dm - Dm



( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi )



After this four measures, I wanted to change key to Dm for a moment.



So thinking the last measure's Dm (Vi) as a tonic (i) for the next four measure,



I went



A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5



which is the same ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key.



But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?



or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is



V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5



what are the details that establish a key change ?










share|improve this question
















I'm writing a song in F Major key.



I have a chord progression that goes Like



4/4



C7 - C#dim - Dm - Dm



( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi )



After this four measures, I wanted to change key to Dm for a moment.



So thinking the last measure's Dm (Vi) as a tonic (i) for the next four measure,



I went



A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5



which is the same ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key.



But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?



or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is



V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5



what are the details that establish a key change ?







theory chords chord-theory chord-progressions modulation






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 10 hours ago







Hyun Yoo Park

















asked 17 hours ago









Hyun Yoo ParkHyun Yoo Park

45827




45827













  • Is this school homework or something? Why do you care about what the key "really" is? Who's going to act upon your key classification?

    – piiperi
    12 hours ago











  • @piiperi no I don't have any teachers. because I like to know everything going on in my music

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    I'm voting to close because, as written, this question is generating some confusion as to what the OP is really asking.

    – Alex Basson
    11 hours ago






  • 3





    @AlexBasson no what I'm asking is very simple. did I really went to Dm key when I went to the A7 part

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    11 hours ago











  • @HyunYooPark If Dm feels to you like the tonic chord at that point, then you went to Dm. Try it to find out how you feel. It's a practical, not theoretical exercise. Note that how you play the chords can affect the result.

    – piiperi
    10 hours ago



















  • Is this school homework or something? Why do you care about what the key "really" is? Who's going to act upon your key classification?

    – piiperi
    12 hours ago











  • @piiperi no I don't have any teachers. because I like to know everything going on in my music

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    12 hours ago






  • 1





    I'm voting to close because, as written, this question is generating some confusion as to what the OP is really asking.

    – Alex Basson
    11 hours ago






  • 3





    @AlexBasson no what I'm asking is very simple. did I really went to Dm key when I went to the A7 part

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    11 hours ago











  • @HyunYooPark If Dm feels to you like the tonic chord at that point, then you went to Dm. Try it to find out how you feel. It's a practical, not theoretical exercise. Note that how you play the chords can affect the result.

    – piiperi
    10 hours ago

















Is this school homework or something? Why do you care about what the key "really" is? Who's going to act upon your key classification?

– piiperi
12 hours ago





Is this school homework or something? Why do you care about what the key "really" is? Who's going to act upon your key classification?

– piiperi
12 hours ago













@piiperi no I don't have any teachers. because I like to know everything going on in my music

– Hyun Yoo Park
12 hours ago





@piiperi no I don't have any teachers. because I like to know everything going on in my music

– Hyun Yoo Park
12 hours ago




1




1





I'm voting to close because, as written, this question is generating some confusion as to what the OP is really asking.

– Alex Basson
11 hours ago





I'm voting to close because, as written, this question is generating some confusion as to what the OP is really asking.

– Alex Basson
11 hours ago




3




3





@AlexBasson no what I'm asking is very simple. did I really went to Dm key when I went to the A7 part

– Hyun Yoo Park
11 hours ago





@AlexBasson no what I'm asking is very simple. did I really went to Dm key when I went to the A7 part

– Hyun Yoo Park
11 hours ago













@HyunYooPark If Dm feels to you like the tonic chord at that point, then you went to Dm. Try it to find out how you feel. It's a practical, not theoretical exercise. Note that how you play the chords can affect the result.

– piiperi
10 hours ago





@HyunYooPark If Dm feels to you like the tonic chord at that point, then you went to Dm. Try it to find out how you feel. It's a practical, not theoretical exercise. Note that how you play the chords can affect the result.

– piiperi
10 hours ago










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















3














Every modulation is a key change. Usually a modulation will have some close relationship to the previous key, like C>Dm, or C>F, or C>G, involving at least a common note or chord, whereas a key change could be a move a semitone or a tone up.



It's not always necessary to change key signature for a modulation - which may even re-modulate back to the original key - but for a complete key change it's worthwhile changing the key sig.



Quite often a piece will drift in and out of, say, C and Am. Certainly more of a mod. than a key change, but not really worth considering as either, unless one wants to be totally academic. It's just what music sometimes does.






share|improve this answer
























  • I'm not talking about notations.

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

    – Tim
    15 hours ago











  • I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    15 hours ago






  • 3





    @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

    – Alex Basson
    11 hours ago






  • 2





    @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

    – topo morto
    11 hours ago



















3














It is subjective. Your feelings define it.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)




... a tonic or tonic chord, which provides a subjective sense of
arrival and rest
...




If you feel that the home base moved, then you feel that the key changed. Someone else might feel differently.



If your real question is, how to create those feelings, i.e. how to establish a key, I think there are questions and answers about that already. Use a proper cadence or something. If establishing Dm is what you're trying to do, then why do you move the bass to B instead of D, and via an A#dim instead of C#dim? If you want your audience to think about an elephant, why say "excavator". You might still be able to make it sound clearly like Dm if you write a strong melody line that disregards the obfuscated chords and overlays something that's strongly in Dm.






share|improve this answer
























  • Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

    – Tim
    10 hours ago











  • @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

    – piiperi
    5 hours ago



















2














As you change from F (C7 is the dominant) to dm this is a false cadence. To establish this new key Dm I propose a normal cadence in the new key Dm, to make the moduation perfect or unambiguous.






share|improve this answer
























  • going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    12 hours ago



















2














Nothing definitively indicates a key change in the kind of situation you are talking about.



Of course it's true that there are many 'textbook' examples of key changes, for example where the change is prepared and fulfilled in a certain way. But in general, there isn't really any one particular thing - or even group of things - that you can point to that 'defines' a key change, and likewise there isn't really anything that defines the 'momentary' key of a piece in the first place.



The nearest thing you will get to a definition of the overall key of the piece will be a combination of key signature, and an instruction as to the key either in the title of the piece, or elsewhere in notation. If there's no such instruction, then at the very least you will have to make your own judgement as to whether the key is major or the relative minor, and while there are many cases where most people would agree, there are some ambiguous cases too.



And of course, you have the same difficulty when discussing key changes, especially (as in your case) between relative minor and major keys. What one person hears as a key change, another might simply hear as a movement to the vi chord.




But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?
or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is
V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5 ..?




It's up to you, as the person analysing the piece, to decide which perspective is more useful.






share|improve this answer

































    0














    F major and D minor are so closely related as to be almost the same key. I'm inclined to describe what you're doing as simply sequential imitation within a single key.



    Does it make any difference, other that in what labels you put on the chords?






    share|improve this answer























      Your Answer








      StackExchange.ready(function() {
      var channelOptions = {
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "240"
      };
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
      createEditor();
      });
      }
      else {
      createEditor();
      }
      });

      function createEditor() {
      StackExchange.prepareEditor({
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: false,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: null,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader: {
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      },
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      });


      }
      });














      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function () {
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81224%2fwhat-defines-a-key-change%23new-answer', 'question_page');
      }
      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes








      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      3














      Every modulation is a key change. Usually a modulation will have some close relationship to the previous key, like C>Dm, or C>F, or C>G, involving at least a common note or chord, whereas a key change could be a move a semitone or a tone up.



      It's not always necessary to change key signature for a modulation - which may even re-modulate back to the original key - but for a complete key change it's worthwhile changing the key sig.



      Quite often a piece will drift in and out of, say, C and Am. Certainly more of a mod. than a key change, but not really worth considering as either, unless one wants to be totally academic. It's just what music sometimes does.






      share|improve this answer
























      • I'm not talking about notations.

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        15 hours ago






      • 1





        O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

        – Tim
        15 hours ago











      • I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        15 hours ago






      • 3





        @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

        – Alex Basson
        11 hours ago






      • 2





        @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

        – topo morto
        11 hours ago
















      3














      Every modulation is a key change. Usually a modulation will have some close relationship to the previous key, like C>Dm, or C>F, or C>G, involving at least a common note or chord, whereas a key change could be a move a semitone or a tone up.



      It's not always necessary to change key signature for a modulation - which may even re-modulate back to the original key - but for a complete key change it's worthwhile changing the key sig.



      Quite often a piece will drift in and out of, say, C and Am. Certainly more of a mod. than a key change, but not really worth considering as either, unless one wants to be totally academic. It's just what music sometimes does.






      share|improve this answer
























      • I'm not talking about notations.

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        15 hours ago






      • 1





        O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

        – Tim
        15 hours ago











      • I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        15 hours ago






      • 3





        @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

        – Alex Basson
        11 hours ago






      • 2





        @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

        – topo morto
        11 hours ago














      3












      3








      3







      Every modulation is a key change. Usually a modulation will have some close relationship to the previous key, like C>Dm, or C>F, or C>G, involving at least a common note or chord, whereas a key change could be a move a semitone or a tone up.



      It's not always necessary to change key signature for a modulation - which may even re-modulate back to the original key - but for a complete key change it's worthwhile changing the key sig.



      Quite often a piece will drift in and out of, say, C and Am. Certainly more of a mod. than a key change, but not really worth considering as either, unless one wants to be totally academic. It's just what music sometimes does.






      share|improve this answer













      Every modulation is a key change. Usually a modulation will have some close relationship to the previous key, like C>Dm, or C>F, or C>G, involving at least a common note or chord, whereas a key change could be a move a semitone or a tone up.



      It's not always necessary to change key signature for a modulation - which may even re-modulate back to the original key - but for a complete key change it's worthwhile changing the key sig.



      Quite often a piece will drift in and out of, say, C and Am. Certainly more of a mod. than a key change, but not really worth considering as either, unless one wants to be totally academic. It's just what music sometimes does.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 16 hours ago









      TimTim

      102k10107259




      102k10107259













      • I'm not talking about notations.

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        15 hours ago






      • 1





        O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

        – Tim
        15 hours ago











      • I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        15 hours ago






      • 3





        @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

        – Alex Basson
        11 hours ago






      • 2





        @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

        – topo morto
        11 hours ago



















      • I'm not talking about notations.

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        15 hours ago






      • 1





        O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

        – Tim
        15 hours ago











      • I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        15 hours ago






      • 3





        @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

        – Alex Basson
        11 hours ago






      • 2





        @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

        – topo morto
        11 hours ago

















      I'm not talking about notations.

      – Hyun Yoo Park
      15 hours ago





      I'm not talking about notations.

      – Hyun Yoo Park
      15 hours ago




      1




      1





      O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

      – Tim
      15 hours ago





      O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

      – Tim
      15 hours ago













      I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

      – Hyun Yoo Park
      15 hours ago





      I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

      – Hyun Yoo Park
      15 hours ago




      3




      3





      @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

      – Alex Basson
      11 hours ago





      @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

      – Alex Basson
      11 hours ago




      2




      2





      @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

      – topo morto
      11 hours ago





      @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

      – topo morto
      11 hours ago











      3














      It is subjective. Your feelings define it.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)




      ... a tonic or tonic chord, which provides a subjective sense of
      arrival and rest
      ...




      If you feel that the home base moved, then you feel that the key changed. Someone else might feel differently.



      If your real question is, how to create those feelings, i.e. how to establish a key, I think there are questions and answers about that already. Use a proper cadence or something. If establishing Dm is what you're trying to do, then why do you move the bass to B instead of D, and via an A#dim instead of C#dim? If you want your audience to think about an elephant, why say "excavator". You might still be able to make it sound clearly like Dm if you write a strong melody line that disregards the obfuscated chords and overlays something that's strongly in Dm.






      share|improve this answer
























      • Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

        – Tim
        10 hours ago











      • @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

        – piiperi
        5 hours ago
















      3














      It is subjective. Your feelings define it.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)




      ... a tonic or tonic chord, which provides a subjective sense of
      arrival and rest
      ...




      If you feel that the home base moved, then you feel that the key changed. Someone else might feel differently.



      If your real question is, how to create those feelings, i.e. how to establish a key, I think there are questions and answers about that already. Use a proper cadence or something. If establishing Dm is what you're trying to do, then why do you move the bass to B instead of D, and via an A#dim instead of C#dim? If you want your audience to think about an elephant, why say "excavator". You might still be able to make it sound clearly like Dm if you write a strong melody line that disregards the obfuscated chords and overlays something that's strongly in Dm.






      share|improve this answer
























      • Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

        – Tim
        10 hours ago











      • @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

        – piiperi
        5 hours ago














      3












      3








      3







      It is subjective. Your feelings define it.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)




      ... a tonic or tonic chord, which provides a subjective sense of
      arrival and rest
      ...




      If you feel that the home base moved, then you feel that the key changed. Someone else might feel differently.



      If your real question is, how to create those feelings, i.e. how to establish a key, I think there are questions and answers about that already. Use a proper cadence or something. If establishing Dm is what you're trying to do, then why do you move the bass to B instead of D, and via an A#dim instead of C#dim? If you want your audience to think about an elephant, why say "excavator". You might still be able to make it sound clearly like Dm if you write a strong melody line that disregards the obfuscated chords and overlays something that's strongly in Dm.






      share|improve this answer













      It is subjective. Your feelings define it.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)




      ... a tonic or tonic chord, which provides a subjective sense of
      arrival and rest
      ...




      If you feel that the home base moved, then you feel that the key changed. Someone else might feel differently.



      If your real question is, how to create those feelings, i.e. how to establish a key, I think there are questions and answers about that already. Use a proper cadence or something. If establishing Dm is what you're trying to do, then why do you move the bass to B instead of D, and via an A#dim instead of C#dim? If you want your audience to think about an elephant, why say "excavator". You might still be able to make it sound clearly like Dm if you write a strong melody line that disregards the obfuscated chords and overlays something that's strongly in Dm.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 12 hours ago









      piiperipiiperi

      1,864210




      1,864210













      • Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

        – Tim
        10 hours ago











      • @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

        – piiperi
        5 hours ago



















      • Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

        – Tim
        10 hours ago











      • @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

        – piiperi
        5 hours ago

















      Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

      – Tim
      10 hours ago





      Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

      – Tim
      10 hours ago













      @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

      – piiperi
      5 hours ago





      @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

      – piiperi
      5 hours ago











      2














      As you change from F (C7 is the dominant) to dm this is a false cadence. To establish this new key Dm I propose a normal cadence in the new key Dm, to make the moduation perfect or unambiguous.






      share|improve this answer
























      • going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        12 hours ago
















      2














      As you change from F (C7 is the dominant) to dm this is a false cadence. To establish this new key Dm I propose a normal cadence in the new key Dm, to make the moduation perfect or unambiguous.






      share|improve this answer
























      • going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        12 hours ago














      2












      2








      2







      As you change from F (C7 is the dominant) to dm this is a false cadence. To establish this new key Dm I propose a normal cadence in the new key Dm, to make the moduation perfect or unambiguous.






      share|improve this answer













      As you change from F (C7 is the dominant) to dm this is a false cadence. To establish this new key Dm I propose a normal cadence in the new key Dm, to make the moduation perfect or unambiguous.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 13 hours ago









      Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli

      3,080220




      3,080220













      • going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        12 hours ago



















      • going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        12 hours ago

















      going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

      – Hyun Yoo Park
      12 hours ago





      going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

      – Hyun Yoo Park
      12 hours ago











      2














      Nothing definitively indicates a key change in the kind of situation you are talking about.



      Of course it's true that there are many 'textbook' examples of key changes, for example where the change is prepared and fulfilled in a certain way. But in general, there isn't really any one particular thing - or even group of things - that you can point to that 'defines' a key change, and likewise there isn't really anything that defines the 'momentary' key of a piece in the first place.



      The nearest thing you will get to a definition of the overall key of the piece will be a combination of key signature, and an instruction as to the key either in the title of the piece, or elsewhere in notation. If there's no such instruction, then at the very least you will have to make your own judgement as to whether the key is major or the relative minor, and while there are many cases where most people would agree, there are some ambiguous cases too.



      And of course, you have the same difficulty when discussing key changes, especially (as in your case) between relative minor and major keys. What one person hears as a key change, another might simply hear as a movement to the vi chord.




      But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?
      or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is
      V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5 ..?




      It's up to you, as the person analysing the piece, to decide which perspective is more useful.






      share|improve this answer






























        2














        Nothing definitively indicates a key change in the kind of situation you are talking about.



        Of course it's true that there are many 'textbook' examples of key changes, for example where the change is prepared and fulfilled in a certain way. But in general, there isn't really any one particular thing - or even group of things - that you can point to that 'defines' a key change, and likewise there isn't really anything that defines the 'momentary' key of a piece in the first place.



        The nearest thing you will get to a definition of the overall key of the piece will be a combination of key signature, and an instruction as to the key either in the title of the piece, or elsewhere in notation. If there's no such instruction, then at the very least you will have to make your own judgement as to whether the key is major or the relative minor, and while there are many cases where most people would agree, there are some ambiguous cases too.



        And of course, you have the same difficulty when discussing key changes, especially (as in your case) between relative minor and major keys. What one person hears as a key change, another might simply hear as a movement to the vi chord.




        But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?
        or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is
        V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5 ..?




        It's up to you, as the person analysing the piece, to decide which perspective is more useful.






        share|improve this answer




























          2












          2








          2







          Nothing definitively indicates a key change in the kind of situation you are talking about.



          Of course it's true that there are many 'textbook' examples of key changes, for example where the change is prepared and fulfilled in a certain way. But in general, there isn't really any one particular thing - or even group of things - that you can point to that 'defines' a key change, and likewise there isn't really anything that defines the 'momentary' key of a piece in the first place.



          The nearest thing you will get to a definition of the overall key of the piece will be a combination of key signature, and an instruction as to the key either in the title of the piece, or elsewhere in notation. If there's no such instruction, then at the very least you will have to make your own judgement as to whether the key is major or the relative minor, and while there are many cases where most people would agree, there are some ambiguous cases too.



          And of course, you have the same difficulty when discussing key changes, especially (as in your case) between relative minor and major keys. What one person hears as a key change, another might simply hear as a movement to the vi chord.




          But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?
          or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is
          V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5 ..?




          It's up to you, as the person analysing the piece, to decide which perspective is more useful.






          share|improve this answer















          Nothing definitively indicates a key change in the kind of situation you are talking about.



          Of course it's true that there are many 'textbook' examples of key changes, for example where the change is prepared and fulfilled in a certain way. But in general, there isn't really any one particular thing - or even group of things - that you can point to that 'defines' a key change, and likewise there isn't really anything that defines the 'momentary' key of a piece in the first place.



          The nearest thing you will get to a definition of the overall key of the piece will be a combination of key signature, and an instruction as to the key either in the title of the piece, or elsewhere in notation. If there's no such instruction, then at the very least you will have to make your own judgement as to whether the key is major or the relative minor, and while there are many cases where most people would agree, there are some ambiguous cases too.



          And of course, you have the same difficulty when discussing key changes, especially (as in your case) between relative minor and major keys. What one person hears as a key change, another might simply hear as a movement to the vi chord.




          But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?
          or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is
          V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5 ..?




          It's up to you, as the person analysing the piece, to decide which perspective is more useful.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 7 hours ago

























          answered 14 hours ago









          topo mortotopo morto

          25.8k244102




          25.8k244102























              0














              F major and D minor are so closely related as to be almost the same key. I'm inclined to describe what you're doing as simply sequential imitation within a single key.



              Does it make any difference, other that in what labels you put on the chords?






              share|improve this answer




























                0














                F major and D minor are so closely related as to be almost the same key. I'm inclined to describe what you're doing as simply sequential imitation within a single key.



                Does it make any difference, other that in what labels you put on the chords?






                share|improve this answer


























                  0












                  0








                  0







                  F major and D minor are so closely related as to be almost the same key. I'm inclined to describe what you're doing as simply sequential imitation within a single key.



                  Does it make any difference, other that in what labels you put on the chords?






                  share|improve this answer













                  F major and D minor are so closely related as to be almost the same key. I'm inclined to describe what you're doing as simply sequential imitation within a single key.



                  Does it make any difference, other that in what labels you put on the chords?







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 10 hours ago









                  Laurence PayneLaurence Payne

                  35.8k1669




                  35.8k1669






























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded




















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid



                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function () {
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81224%2fwhat-defines-a-key-change%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                      }
                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      How to label and detect the document text images

                      Vallis Paradisi

                      Tabula Rosettana