How can I handle players killing my NPC outside of combat?
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My players tried to capture one of my bosses (they didn't know it was a boss) and after a few rolls they succeeded. They started to interrogate him (the NPC is a human) and after obtaining the information they wanted he was stabbed in the chest. Basically, imagine having one of the most powerful warriors of the kingdom killed by a throat cut because the rogue rolled 19 on Stealth.
Now here's the thing: how do I handle realism and one-shotting bosses out of combat? Because I can think of excuses but I don't want my players to feel discouraged or think that their actions are meaningless if the DM wants this NPC to fight them.
dnd-5e npc
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show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
My players tried to capture one of my bosses (they didn't know it was a boss) and after a few rolls they succeeded. They started to interrogate him (the NPC is a human) and after obtaining the information they wanted he was stabbed in the chest. Basically, imagine having one of the most powerful warriors of the kingdom killed by a throat cut because the rogue rolled 19 on Stealth.
Now here's the thing: how do I handle realism and one-shotting bosses out of combat? Because I can think of excuses but I don't want my players to feel discouraged or think that their actions are meaningless if the DM wants this NPC to fight them.
dnd-5e npc
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1
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Just to confirm: Are you talking about how to handle this with regards to your planned plot and adventure? Or about the more direct consequences of your PCs killing NPCs in such a way?
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– PJRZ
15 hours ago
1
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Aiming more for the first option. Imagine having one of the most powerful warriors of the kingdom killed by a throat cut because the rogue rolled 19 on sneak. In this kind of scenarios, i doubt if I should allow it and move on or give it a little more thought process.
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– LarK
15 hours ago
6
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As I understand it, the players did not learn that he was the boss through the interrogation. What is stopping you from just ret-conning him as an underling?
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– frog
14 hours ago
4
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Out of curiosity, did you allow the rogue to literally one-shot the boss by slitting their throat? If so are you aware that this is not supported by the rules or did you just decide to houserule and allow it?
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– Rubiksmoose
11 hours ago
1
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@LarK I made a followup question here that might help, but maybe not completely, address further concerns. Essentially it's up to you as a DM to handle, but there are things to consider either way.
$endgroup$
– convoliution
7 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
My players tried to capture one of my bosses (they didn't know it was a boss) and after a few rolls they succeeded. They started to interrogate him (the NPC is a human) and after obtaining the information they wanted he was stabbed in the chest. Basically, imagine having one of the most powerful warriors of the kingdom killed by a throat cut because the rogue rolled 19 on Stealth.
Now here's the thing: how do I handle realism and one-shotting bosses out of combat? Because I can think of excuses but I don't want my players to feel discouraged or think that their actions are meaningless if the DM wants this NPC to fight them.
dnd-5e npc
$endgroup$
My players tried to capture one of my bosses (they didn't know it was a boss) and after a few rolls they succeeded. They started to interrogate him (the NPC is a human) and after obtaining the information they wanted he was stabbed in the chest. Basically, imagine having one of the most powerful warriors of the kingdom killed by a throat cut because the rogue rolled 19 on Stealth.
Now here's the thing: how do I handle realism and one-shotting bosses out of combat? Because I can think of excuses but I don't want my players to feel discouraged or think that their actions are meaningless if the DM wants this NPC to fight them.
dnd-5e npc
dnd-5e npc
edited 10 hours ago
V2Blast
23.2k374146
23.2k374146
asked 15 hours ago
LarKLarK
47447
47447
1
$begingroup$
Just to confirm: Are you talking about how to handle this with regards to your planned plot and adventure? Or about the more direct consequences of your PCs killing NPCs in such a way?
$endgroup$
– PJRZ
15 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Aiming more for the first option. Imagine having one of the most powerful warriors of the kingdom killed by a throat cut because the rogue rolled 19 on sneak. In this kind of scenarios, i doubt if I should allow it and move on or give it a little more thought process.
$endgroup$
– LarK
15 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
As I understand it, the players did not learn that he was the boss through the interrogation. What is stopping you from just ret-conning him as an underling?
$endgroup$
– frog
14 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
Out of curiosity, did you allow the rogue to literally one-shot the boss by slitting their throat? If so are you aware that this is not supported by the rules or did you just decide to houserule and allow it?
$endgroup$
– Rubiksmoose
11 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@LarK I made a followup question here that might help, but maybe not completely, address further concerns. Essentially it's up to you as a DM to handle, but there are things to consider either way.
$endgroup$
– convoliution
7 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
1
$begingroup$
Just to confirm: Are you talking about how to handle this with regards to your planned plot and adventure? Or about the more direct consequences of your PCs killing NPCs in such a way?
$endgroup$
– PJRZ
15 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Aiming more for the first option. Imagine having one of the most powerful warriors of the kingdom killed by a throat cut because the rogue rolled 19 on sneak. In this kind of scenarios, i doubt if I should allow it and move on or give it a little more thought process.
$endgroup$
– LarK
15 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
As I understand it, the players did not learn that he was the boss through the interrogation. What is stopping you from just ret-conning him as an underling?
$endgroup$
– frog
14 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
Out of curiosity, did you allow the rogue to literally one-shot the boss by slitting their throat? If so are you aware that this is not supported by the rules or did you just decide to houserule and allow it?
$endgroup$
– Rubiksmoose
11 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@LarK I made a followup question here that might help, but maybe not completely, address further concerns. Essentially it's up to you as a DM to handle, but there are things to consider either way.
$endgroup$
– convoliution
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Just to confirm: Are you talking about how to handle this with regards to your planned plot and adventure? Or about the more direct consequences of your PCs killing NPCs in such a way?
$endgroup$
– PJRZ
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
Just to confirm: Are you talking about how to handle this with regards to your planned plot and adventure? Or about the more direct consequences of your PCs killing NPCs in such a way?
$endgroup$
– PJRZ
15 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Aiming more for the first option. Imagine having one of the most powerful warriors of the kingdom killed by a throat cut because the rogue rolled 19 on sneak. In this kind of scenarios, i doubt if I should allow it and move on or give it a little more thought process.
$endgroup$
– LarK
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
Aiming more for the first option. Imagine having one of the most powerful warriors of the kingdom killed by a throat cut because the rogue rolled 19 on sneak. In this kind of scenarios, i doubt if I should allow it and move on or give it a little more thought process.
$endgroup$
– LarK
15 hours ago
6
6
$begingroup$
As I understand it, the players did not learn that he was the boss through the interrogation. What is stopping you from just ret-conning him as an underling?
$endgroup$
– frog
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
As I understand it, the players did not learn that he was the boss through the interrogation. What is stopping you from just ret-conning him as an underling?
$endgroup$
– frog
14 hours ago
4
4
$begingroup$
Out of curiosity, did you allow the rogue to literally one-shot the boss by slitting their throat? If so are you aware that this is not supported by the rules or did you just decide to houserule and allow it?
$endgroup$
– Rubiksmoose
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
Out of curiosity, did you allow the rogue to literally one-shot the boss by slitting their throat? If so are you aware that this is not supported by the rules or did you just decide to houserule and allow it?
$endgroup$
– Rubiksmoose
11 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@LarK I made a followup question here that might help, but maybe not completely, address further concerns. Essentially it's up to you as a DM to handle, but there are things to consider either way.
$endgroup$
– convoliution
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@LarK I made a followup question here that might help, but maybe not completely, address further concerns. Essentially it's up to you as a DM to handle, but there are things to consider either way.
$endgroup$
– convoliution
7 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
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Adapt and move on
Players do have a tendency to ruin the best-laid plans of the DM!
In your scenario, I wonder if maybe there was a mistake somewhere that allowed such a powerful NPC to be captured and made helpless in the first place. Typically you would not expect such a character to be walking around alone and defenceless in the first place.
But what's done is done, so now you may need to adjust your plans. Bearing in mind that your players (hopefully) don't know your entire plan.
So, perhaps this NPC was not the big boss after all. He was actually an underling, a front, the right-hand man and so on. He may even have put up the pretence of being the boss to act as a diversion to the real guy.
Assuming the players didn't take measures to prevent it, his body could always be recovered by his own allies and raised. (Possibly the simplest answer).
Or maybe the NPC could end up returning as an undead, even meaner than before!
Or another NPC, one the players have not encountered before, could take over the boss's criminal organisation. You could even have multiple criminals and/or monsters fighting to take over the criminal enterprise and causing your plot to veer off into a completely different direction!
Note: All of the above could be in addition to the points made in SaggingRufus's answer.
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They did succeed knocking guards (i didn't make it too hard as it should have been perhaps?). Maybe this is not the answer that i wanted to hear but the one i need to. In my head, a boss could not ever be killed with a simple strike from a weaker opponent, but maybe this comes from years as a gamer. Anyway, I agree with the rest, this kind of events helps the plot to be developed by the players too and brings an opportunity to me to shake things up. Thanks for the answer!
$endgroup$
– LarK
14 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
Dude! Having this guy come back in the end game as some sort of hyped up undead version of himself, even more powerful than he was before?! That would be EPIC! He could even take time ot thank the PCs for killing him! Best thing that ever happened to him and so on. Every defeat is an opportunity in disguise!
$endgroup$
– Steve-O
12 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
This is an excellent answer. I'd like to add one more possibility - the boss was the big boss. His death has now created a power vacuum in the organisation and the 2nd in commands are now eyeing the top job. An internecine power struggle is starting and you can use this any way you want. It could make the organisation less powerful. It could make branches of the organisation more determined and lethal. One branch could co-opt the players into trying to get that branch to win. Lots of options.
$endgroup$
– Skrrp
10 hours ago
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Additional options - two branches are both claiming to be the real org. Big Bad Org v1 wants you to kill the princess, and Big Bad Org v2 wants you to kill the princess. It'd be extremely confusing to the players that Big Bad Org keeps changing their mind, until they eventually figure it out. Opportunities are endless!
$endgroup$
– Selkie
9 hours ago
add a comment |
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Your PCs are acting as vigilantes, and as such that should come with the consequence of murdering someone.
I can think of a few ways to handle this off the top of my head:
- Have the local authorities (ex: town guards, military, city watch) come after them and launch a full investigation into the murder of this NPC
- Have the rest of his gang find out that the PCs murdered their boss. Maybe there was someone in that gang looking to have the Boss killed so they could rise to power.
- Have the rest of his gang go a on quest to attempt to resurrect him using relics that the PCs need to collect before they do.
Either way, you can use this as a way to change the story.
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Could also have them overhear towns folk criticizing the rise of "vigilantes", think Batman. Another 'consequence' that plays on their emotional response.
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– akozi
13 hours ago
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@KorvinStarmast military or whoever else upholds the law
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– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
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I'll edit that in. I agree with you, police isn't quite right.
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– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
3
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Just in the FWIW catgegory, there's always been a little bit of "the wild west" flavor to D&D going back to the original game. The PC's are on the edges of "civilization" in undeveloped or ruined lands where (X bad monster) is living or (Y bad event) is happening. If the authorities were in charge, they'd have handled it (unless they are part of the problem/corrupt). So a little bit of vigilantism seems to be baked into this genre from the get go. The degree of this will vary with setting, of course, and default FR is a bit "law and order" and Renaissance compared to other settings.
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– KorvinStarmast
12 hours ago
add a comment |
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I agree with adapt and move on, but an alternative is to
look at what the boss has up their sleeve to prevent this
An intelligent enemy won't put themselves into a situation they don't think they can escape from, so maybe he is a magic user and "You reach for your dagger and as you strike the captive vanishes, he reappears seconds later in the corridor, turns and runs" (IE: Casts Misty Step as a reaction).
Maybe he is a hardy barbarian and "You push the dagger into his chest which resists like it was made of steel! A small dribble of blood runs out where you would expect a flood. Suddenly his muscles tense and he breaks free of his bonds!" (IE: Bear totem resistance to non-magical piercing, followed by raging and gaining advantage on strength checks to break the ropes / manacles).
It might be too late for you to do this now, but equally if your PC's were taken captive I don't think they would like to be killed like chumps, so can probably understand the NPC's not going out this way. Your boss would still be unarmed, unarmoured and at a serious disadvantage, but at least he would have his HP and actions to make his escape.
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add a comment |
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Serial outcomes to BBEG's execution: Revenant and/or Deputy
If you look into the Monster Manual entry for Revenant, you'll find this opener:
A revenant forms from the soul of a mortal who met a cruel and undeserving fate.
Whether the BBEG met a fate as characterized there is up to you as DM to decide, but as the party continues with their adventure they will eventually discover that they are being tracked by a Revenant. Or, the Revenant will make an entrance at a key moment with the stabber squarely in his sights.
Meanwhile, since the boss has been taken out ...
BBEG's deputy takes over
You don't miss a beat in the adventure. Your BBEG's right hand man/woman was looking into {something} concerning their criminal/evil/nefarious enterprise. As with various criminal organizations, once the top dog is gone Number Two takes the reins. Granted, you can let some time pass as this equally nasty opponent consolidates power within the bad guy group, but it's not that hard to drop hints that the bad things the BBEG's people were up to are still going on, or begin to go on again, with a slight change in style. (A different sign or letter is carved into the foreheads of assassinated foes of the organization, for example ...)
You can combine both of the above if you think it will fit the challenge and narrative for your party. Not only did Number Two take over (who now has an eye on how deadly the party is, and how ruthless the PC's are) but also the Revenant makes a grand entrance at a critical point.
Improvise, Overcome, Adapt. Gunny Highway's guidance applies to DMs as well as to Marines.
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add a comment |
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If it hasn't happened yet, you can retcon.
As a GM, you have a "spoken" or "unspoken" agreement with the players. You set challenges, they solve them, your world is consistent and they have agency -- their actions matter. So if they defeated the Big Bad through quick thinking and a few lucky die rolls, they deserve a reward.
On the other hand, you are free to change any element of the game that hasn't happened "on stage" yet. You are not required to make a plan before the campaign starts and to stick to it, no matter what. Some options how to cheat and adapt:
- Reorganize the "chain of command" of the NPCs. The slain warrior was only the second-in-command, and you introduce a new Evil Overlord. Either this new boss is weaker than the old one, or the players are rewarded in some other way for their success.
- The slain warrior was the Big Bad, but with his disappearance the former second-in-command makes a move. Again the new boss is not quite as capable as the old one.
- As a variant, the Big Bad's conspiracy comes apart and new, different adventures happen. Send the players to secure the magic items in the slain warrior's arsenal, fighting a hundred brushfires rather than a big fight.
- If that is consistent with the information from the interrogation, decide that the slain warrior never was the Big Bad after all. He was a third party in the conflict, trying to profit from the mayhem in some way. That explains why he knew things, and it doesn't retcon him into an innocent.
Think through the clues that were handed out so far. Come up with a "new truth" consistent will all those clues. The slain warrior will be somewhere, but not necessarily on top of the pyramid.
Side note, as a GM you are allowed to cheat even in combat as long as you keep faith with the players. If cause-and-effect principles are violated, it follows the narrative logic. You deliver a fun challenge, they solve it. The actions of the NPCs affect the setting, and so do the actions of the PCs.
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add a comment |
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I would think it would be easier to have the slain NPC a doppleganger or simulacrum as opposed to the actual boss. This keeps the story line in place and will have a shocking effect on the PC's when they finally confront this boss. On a side note, what if any repercussions will happen to the PC that actually killed the NPC (does his alignment allow said action.) It's been a while since I've gamed, but depending on alignment there is usually something that happens if the PC acted against his alignment.
New contributor
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Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance. Note that 5e has very few mechanics relating to alignment, and there's very little mechanical impact for "acting against your alignment" (and very little definition of what that even means). In addition, you should support your suggestions with evidence or experience; why are those suggestions a good way to resolve the issue?
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– V2Blast
4 hours ago
add a comment |
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6 Answers
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6 Answers
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$begingroup$
Adapt and move on
Players do have a tendency to ruin the best-laid plans of the DM!
In your scenario, I wonder if maybe there was a mistake somewhere that allowed such a powerful NPC to be captured and made helpless in the first place. Typically you would not expect such a character to be walking around alone and defenceless in the first place.
But what's done is done, so now you may need to adjust your plans. Bearing in mind that your players (hopefully) don't know your entire plan.
So, perhaps this NPC was not the big boss after all. He was actually an underling, a front, the right-hand man and so on. He may even have put up the pretence of being the boss to act as a diversion to the real guy.
Assuming the players didn't take measures to prevent it, his body could always be recovered by his own allies and raised. (Possibly the simplest answer).
Or maybe the NPC could end up returning as an undead, even meaner than before!
Or another NPC, one the players have not encountered before, could take over the boss's criminal organisation. You could even have multiple criminals and/or monsters fighting to take over the criminal enterprise and causing your plot to veer off into a completely different direction!
Note: All of the above could be in addition to the points made in SaggingRufus's answer.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
They did succeed knocking guards (i didn't make it too hard as it should have been perhaps?). Maybe this is not the answer that i wanted to hear but the one i need to. In my head, a boss could not ever be killed with a simple strike from a weaker opponent, but maybe this comes from years as a gamer. Anyway, I agree with the rest, this kind of events helps the plot to be developed by the players too and brings an opportunity to me to shake things up. Thanks for the answer!
$endgroup$
– LarK
14 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
Dude! Having this guy come back in the end game as some sort of hyped up undead version of himself, even more powerful than he was before?! That would be EPIC! He could even take time ot thank the PCs for killing him! Best thing that ever happened to him and so on. Every defeat is an opportunity in disguise!
$endgroup$
– Steve-O
12 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
This is an excellent answer. I'd like to add one more possibility - the boss was the big boss. His death has now created a power vacuum in the organisation and the 2nd in commands are now eyeing the top job. An internecine power struggle is starting and you can use this any way you want. It could make the organisation less powerful. It could make branches of the organisation more determined and lethal. One branch could co-opt the players into trying to get that branch to win. Lots of options.
$endgroup$
– Skrrp
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Additional options - two branches are both claiming to be the real org. Big Bad Org v1 wants you to kill the princess, and Big Bad Org v2 wants you to kill the princess. It'd be extremely confusing to the players that Big Bad Org keeps changing their mind, until they eventually figure it out. Opportunities are endless!
$endgroup$
– Selkie
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Adapt and move on
Players do have a tendency to ruin the best-laid plans of the DM!
In your scenario, I wonder if maybe there was a mistake somewhere that allowed such a powerful NPC to be captured and made helpless in the first place. Typically you would not expect such a character to be walking around alone and defenceless in the first place.
But what's done is done, so now you may need to adjust your plans. Bearing in mind that your players (hopefully) don't know your entire plan.
So, perhaps this NPC was not the big boss after all. He was actually an underling, a front, the right-hand man and so on. He may even have put up the pretence of being the boss to act as a diversion to the real guy.
Assuming the players didn't take measures to prevent it, his body could always be recovered by his own allies and raised. (Possibly the simplest answer).
Or maybe the NPC could end up returning as an undead, even meaner than before!
Or another NPC, one the players have not encountered before, could take over the boss's criminal organisation. You could even have multiple criminals and/or monsters fighting to take over the criminal enterprise and causing your plot to veer off into a completely different direction!
Note: All of the above could be in addition to the points made in SaggingRufus's answer.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
They did succeed knocking guards (i didn't make it too hard as it should have been perhaps?). Maybe this is not the answer that i wanted to hear but the one i need to. In my head, a boss could not ever be killed with a simple strike from a weaker opponent, but maybe this comes from years as a gamer. Anyway, I agree with the rest, this kind of events helps the plot to be developed by the players too and brings an opportunity to me to shake things up. Thanks for the answer!
$endgroup$
– LarK
14 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
Dude! Having this guy come back in the end game as some sort of hyped up undead version of himself, even more powerful than he was before?! That would be EPIC! He could even take time ot thank the PCs for killing him! Best thing that ever happened to him and so on. Every defeat is an opportunity in disguise!
$endgroup$
– Steve-O
12 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
This is an excellent answer. I'd like to add one more possibility - the boss was the big boss. His death has now created a power vacuum in the organisation and the 2nd in commands are now eyeing the top job. An internecine power struggle is starting and you can use this any way you want. It could make the organisation less powerful. It could make branches of the organisation more determined and lethal. One branch could co-opt the players into trying to get that branch to win. Lots of options.
$endgroup$
– Skrrp
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Additional options - two branches are both claiming to be the real org. Big Bad Org v1 wants you to kill the princess, and Big Bad Org v2 wants you to kill the princess. It'd be extremely confusing to the players that Big Bad Org keeps changing their mind, until they eventually figure it out. Opportunities are endless!
$endgroup$
– Selkie
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Adapt and move on
Players do have a tendency to ruin the best-laid plans of the DM!
In your scenario, I wonder if maybe there was a mistake somewhere that allowed such a powerful NPC to be captured and made helpless in the first place. Typically you would not expect such a character to be walking around alone and defenceless in the first place.
But what's done is done, so now you may need to adjust your plans. Bearing in mind that your players (hopefully) don't know your entire plan.
So, perhaps this NPC was not the big boss after all. He was actually an underling, a front, the right-hand man and so on. He may even have put up the pretence of being the boss to act as a diversion to the real guy.
Assuming the players didn't take measures to prevent it, his body could always be recovered by his own allies and raised. (Possibly the simplest answer).
Or maybe the NPC could end up returning as an undead, even meaner than before!
Or another NPC, one the players have not encountered before, could take over the boss's criminal organisation. You could even have multiple criminals and/or monsters fighting to take over the criminal enterprise and causing your plot to veer off into a completely different direction!
Note: All of the above could be in addition to the points made in SaggingRufus's answer.
$endgroup$
Adapt and move on
Players do have a tendency to ruin the best-laid plans of the DM!
In your scenario, I wonder if maybe there was a mistake somewhere that allowed such a powerful NPC to be captured and made helpless in the first place. Typically you would not expect such a character to be walking around alone and defenceless in the first place.
But what's done is done, so now you may need to adjust your plans. Bearing in mind that your players (hopefully) don't know your entire plan.
So, perhaps this NPC was not the big boss after all. He was actually an underling, a front, the right-hand man and so on. He may even have put up the pretence of being the boss to act as a diversion to the real guy.
Assuming the players didn't take measures to prevent it, his body could always be recovered by his own allies and raised. (Possibly the simplest answer).
Or maybe the NPC could end up returning as an undead, even meaner than before!
Or another NPC, one the players have not encountered before, could take over the boss's criminal organisation. You could even have multiple criminals and/or monsters fighting to take over the criminal enterprise and causing your plot to veer off into a completely different direction!
Note: All of the above could be in addition to the points made in SaggingRufus's answer.
edited 13 hours ago
V2Blast
23.2k374146
23.2k374146
answered 14 hours ago
PJRZPJRZ
10.2k12952
10.2k12952
$begingroup$
They did succeed knocking guards (i didn't make it too hard as it should have been perhaps?). Maybe this is not the answer that i wanted to hear but the one i need to. In my head, a boss could not ever be killed with a simple strike from a weaker opponent, but maybe this comes from years as a gamer. Anyway, I agree with the rest, this kind of events helps the plot to be developed by the players too and brings an opportunity to me to shake things up. Thanks for the answer!
$endgroup$
– LarK
14 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
Dude! Having this guy come back in the end game as some sort of hyped up undead version of himself, even more powerful than he was before?! That would be EPIC! He could even take time ot thank the PCs for killing him! Best thing that ever happened to him and so on. Every defeat is an opportunity in disguise!
$endgroup$
– Steve-O
12 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
This is an excellent answer. I'd like to add one more possibility - the boss was the big boss. His death has now created a power vacuum in the organisation and the 2nd in commands are now eyeing the top job. An internecine power struggle is starting and you can use this any way you want. It could make the organisation less powerful. It could make branches of the organisation more determined and lethal. One branch could co-opt the players into trying to get that branch to win. Lots of options.
$endgroup$
– Skrrp
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Additional options - two branches are both claiming to be the real org. Big Bad Org v1 wants you to kill the princess, and Big Bad Org v2 wants you to kill the princess. It'd be extremely confusing to the players that Big Bad Org keeps changing their mind, until they eventually figure it out. Opportunities are endless!
$endgroup$
– Selkie
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
They did succeed knocking guards (i didn't make it too hard as it should have been perhaps?). Maybe this is not the answer that i wanted to hear but the one i need to. In my head, a boss could not ever be killed with a simple strike from a weaker opponent, but maybe this comes from years as a gamer. Anyway, I agree with the rest, this kind of events helps the plot to be developed by the players too and brings an opportunity to me to shake things up. Thanks for the answer!
$endgroup$
– LarK
14 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
Dude! Having this guy come back in the end game as some sort of hyped up undead version of himself, even more powerful than he was before?! That would be EPIC! He could even take time ot thank the PCs for killing him! Best thing that ever happened to him and so on. Every defeat is an opportunity in disguise!
$endgroup$
– Steve-O
12 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
This is an excellent answer. I'd like to add one more possibility - the boss was the big boss. His death has now created a power vacuum in the organisation and the 2nd in commands are now eyeing the top job. An internecine power struggle is starting and you can use this any way you want. It could make the organisation less powerful. It could make branches of the organisation more determined and lethal. One branch could co-opt the players into trying to get that branch to win. Lots of options.
$endgroup$
– Skrrp
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Additional options - two branches are both claiming to be the real org. Big Bad Org v1 wants you to kill the princess, and Big Bad Org v2 wants you to kill the princess. It'd be extremely confusing to the players that Big Bad Org keeps changing their mind, until they eventually figure it out. Opportunities are endless!
$endgroup$
– Selkie
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
They did succeed knocking guards (i didn't make it too hard as it should have been perhaps?). Maybe this is not the answer that i wanted to hear but the one i need to. In my head, a boss could not ever be killed with a simple strike from a weaker opponent, but maybe this comes from years as a gamer. Anyway, I agree with the rest, this kind of events helps the plot to be developed by the players too and brings an opportunity to me to shake things up. Thanks for the answer!
$endgroup$
– LarK
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
They did succeed knocking guards (i didn't make it too hard as it should have been perhaps?). Maybe this is not the answer that i wanted to hear but the one i need to. In my head, a boss could not ever be killed with a simple strike from a weaker opponent, but maybe this comes from years as a gamer. Anyway, I agree with the rest, this kind of events helps the plot to be developed by the players too and brings an opportunity to me to shake things up. Thanks for the answer!
$endgroup$
– LarK
14 hours ago
6
6
$begingroup$
Dude! Having this guy come back in the end game as some sort of hyped up undead version of himself, even more powerful than he was before?! That would be EPIC! He could even take time ot thank the PCs for killing him! Best thing that ever happened to him and so on. Every defeat is an opportunity in disguise!
$endgroup$
– Steve-O
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dude! Having this guy come back in the end game as some sort of hyped up undead version of himself, even more powerful than he was before?! That would be EPIC! He could even take time ot thank the PCs for killing him! Best thing that ever happened to him and so on. Every defeat is an opportunity in disguise!
$endgroup$
– Steve-O
12 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
This is an excellent answer. I'd like to add one more possibility - the boss was the big boss. His death has now created a power vacuum in the organisation and the 2nd in commands are now eyeing the top job. An internecine power struggle is starting and you can use this any way you want. It could make the organisation less powerful. It could make branches of the organisation more determined and lethal. One branch could co-opt the players into trying to get that branch to win. Lots of options.
$endgroup$
– Skrrp
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is an excellent answer. I'd like to add one more possibility - the boss was the big boss. His death has now created a power vacuum in the organisation and the 2nd in commands are now eyeing the top job. An internecine power struggle is starting and you can use this any way you want. It could make the organisation less powerful. It could make branches of the organisation more determined and lethal. One branch could co-opt the players into trying to get that branch to win. Lots of options.
$endgroup$
– Skrrp
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Additional options - two branches are both claiming to be the real org. Big Bad Org v1 wants you to kill the princess, and Big Bad Org v2 wants you to kill the princess. It'd be extremely confusing to the players that Big Bad Org keeps changing their mind, until they eventually figure it out. Opportunities are endless!
$endgroup$
– Selkie
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Additional options - two branches are both claiming to be the real org. Big Bad Org v1 wants you to kill the princess, and Big Bad Org v2 wants you to kill the princess. It'd be extremely confusing to the players that Big Bad Org keeps changing their mind, until they eventually figure it out. Opportunities are endless!
$endgroup$
– Selkie
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your PCs are acting as vigilantes, and as such that should come with the consequence of murdering someone.
I can think of a few ways to handle this off the top of my head:
- Have the local authorities (ex: town guards, military, city watch) come after them and launch a full investigation into the murder of this NPC
- Have the rest of his gang find out that the PCs murdered their boss. Maybe there was someone in that gang looking to have the Boss killed so they could rise to power.
- Have the rest of his gang go a on quest to attempt to resurrect him using relics that the PCs need to collect before they do.
Either way, you can use this as a way to change the story.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Could also have them overhear towns folk criticizing the rise of "vigilantes", think Batman. Another 'consequence' that plays on their emotional response.
$endgroup$
– akozi
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast military or whoever else upholds the law
$endgroup$
– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'll edit that in. I agree with you, police isn't quite right.
$endgroup$
– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
Just in the FWIW catgegory, there's always been a little bit of "the wild west" flavor to D&D going back to the original game. The PC's are on the edges of "civilization" in undeveloped or ruined lands where (X bad monster) is living or (Y bad event) is happening. If the authorities were in charge, they'd have handled it (unless they are part of the problem/corrupt). So a little bit of vigilantism seems to be baked into this genre from the get go. The degree of this will vary with setting, of course, and default FR is a bit "law and order" and Renaissance compared to other settings.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
12 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your PCs are acting as vigilantes, and as such that should come with the consequence of murdering someone.
I can think of a few ways to handle this off the top of my head:
- Have the local authorities (ex: town guards, military, city watch) come after them and launch a full investigation into the murder of this NPC
- Have the rest of his gang find out that the PCs murdered their boss. Maybe there was someone in that gang looking to have the Boss killed so they could rise to power.
- Have the rest of his gang go a on quest to attempt to resurrect him using relics that the PCs need to collect before they do.
Either way, you can use this as a way to change the story.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Could also have them overhear towns folk criticizing the rise of "vigilantes", think Batman. Another 'consequence' that plays on their emotional response.
$endgroup$
– akozi
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast military or whoever else upholds the law
$endgroup$
– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'll edit that in. I agree with you, police isn't quite right.
$endgroup$
– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
Just in the FWIW catgegory, there's always been a little bit of "the wild west" flavor to D&D going back to the original game. The PC's are on the edges of "civilization" in undeveloped or ruined lands where (X bad monster) is living or (Y bad event) is happening. If the authorities were in charge, they'd have handled it (unless they are part of the problem/corrupt). So a little bit of vigilantism seems to be baked into this genre from the get go. The degree of this will vary with setting, of course, and default FR is a bit "law and order" and Renaissance compared to other settings.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
12 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your PCs are acting as vigilantes, and as such that should come with the consequence of murdering someone.
I can think of a few ways to handle this off the top of my head:
- Have the local authorities (ex: town guards, military, city watch) come after them and launch a full investigation into the murder of this NPC
- Have the rest of his gang find out that the PCs murdered their boss. Maybe there was someone in that gang looking to have the Boss killed so they could rise to power.
- Have the rest of his gang go a on quest to attempt to resurrect him using relics that the PCs need to collect before they do.
Either way, you can use this as a way to change the story.
$endgroup$
Your PCs are acting as vigilantes, and as such that should come with the consequence of murdering someone.
I can think of a few ways to handle this off the top of my head:
- Have the local authorities (ex: town guards, military, city watch) come after them and launch a full investigation into the murder of this NPC
- Have the rest of his gang find out that the PCs murdered their boss. Maybe there was someone in that gang looking to have the Boss killed so they could rise to power.
- Have the rest of his gang go a on quest to attempt to resurrect him using relics that the PCs need to collect before they do.
Either way, you can use this as a way to change the story.
edited 12 hours ago
answered 14 hours ago
SaggingRufusSaggingRufus
967821
967821
1
$begingroup$
Could also have them overhear towns folk criticizing the rise of "vigilantes", think Batman. Another 'consequence' that plays on their emotional response.
$endgroup$
– akozi
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast military or whoever else upholds the law
$endgroup$
– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'll edit that in. I agree with you, police isn't quite right.
$endgroup$
– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
Just in the FWIW catgegory, there's always been a little bit of "the wild west" flavor to D&D going back to the original game. The PC's are on the edges of "civilization" in undeveloped or ruined lands where (X bad monster) is living or (Y bad event) is happening. If the authorities were in charge, they'd have handled it (unless they are part of the problem/corrupt). So a little bit of vigilantism seems to be baked into this genre from the get go. The degree of this will vary with setting, of course, and default FR is a bit "law and order" and Renaissance compared to other settings.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
12 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Could also have them overhear towns folk criticizing the rise of "vigilantes", think Batman. Another 'consequence' that plays on their emotional response.
$endgroup$
– akozi
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast military or whoever else upholds the law
$endgroup$
– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'll edit that in. I agree with you, police isn't quite right.
$endgroup$
– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
Just in the FWIW catgegory, there's always been a little bit of "the wild west" flavor to D&D going back to the original game. The PC's are on the edges of "civilization" in undeveloped or ruined lands where (X bad monster) is living or (Y bad event) is happening. If the authorities were in charge, they'd have handled it (unless they are part of the problem/corrupt). So a little bit of vigilantism seems to be baked into this genre from the get go. The degree of this will vary with setting, of course, and default FR is a bit "law and order" and Renaissance compared to other settings.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
12 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Could also have them overhear towns folk criticizing the rise of "vigilantes", think Batman. Another 'consequence' that plays on their emotional response.
$endgroup$
– akozi
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
Could also have them overhear towns folk criticizing the rise of "vigilantes", think Batman. Another 'consequence' that plays on their emotional response.
$endgroup$
– akozi
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast military or whoever else upholds the law
$endgroup$
– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast military or whoever else upholds the law
$endgroup$
– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'll edit that in. I agree with you, police isn't quite right.
$endgroup$
– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
I'll edit that in. I agree with you, police isn't quite right.
$endgroup$
– SaggingRufus
12 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
Just in the FWIW catgegory, there's always been a little bit of "the wild west" flavor to D&D going back to the original game. The PC's are on the edges of "civilization" in undeveloped or ruined lands where (X bad monster) is living or (Y bad event) is happening. If the authorities were in charge, they'd have handled it (unless they are part of the problem/corrupt). So a little bit of vigilantism seems to be baked into this genre from the get go. The degree of this will vary with setting, of course, and default FR is a bit "law and order" and Renaissance compared to other settings.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
Just in the FWIW catgegory, there's always been a little bit of "the wild west" flavor to D&D going back to the original game. The PC's are on the edges of "civilization" in undeveloped or ruined lands where (X bad monster) is living or (Y bad event) is happening. If the authorities were in charge, they'd have handled it (unless they are part of the problem/corrupt). So a little bit of vigilantism seems to be baked into this genre from the get go. The degree of this will vary with setting, of course, and default FR is a bit "law and order" and Renaissance compared to other settings.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
12 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I agree with adapt and move on, but an alternative is to
look at what the boss has up their sleeve to prevent this
An intelligent enemy won't put themselves into a situation they don't think they can escape from, so maybe he is a magic user and "You reach for your dagger and as you strike the captive vanishes, he reappears seconds later in the corridor, turns and runs" (IE: Casts Misty Step as a reaction).
Maybe he is a hardy barbarian and "You push the dagger into his chest which resists like it was made of steel! A small dribble of blood runs out where you would expect a flood. Suddenly his muscles tense and he breaks free of his bonds!" (IE: Bear totem resistance to non-magical piercing, followed by raging and gaining advantage on strength checks to break the ropes / manacles).
It might be too late for you to do this now, but equally if your PC's were taken captive I don't think they would like to be killed like chumps, so can probably understand the NPC's not going out this way. Your boss would still be unarmed, unarmoured and at a serious disadvantage, but at least he would have his HP and actions to make his escape.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I agree with adapt and move on, but an alternative is to
look at what the boss has up their sleeve to prevent this
An intelligent enemy won't put themselves into a situation they don't think they can escape from, so maybe he is a magic user and "You reach for your dagger and as you strike the captive vanishes, he reappears seconds later in the corridor, turns and runs" (IE: Casts Misty Step as a reaction).
Maybe he is a hardy barbarian and "You push the dagger into his chest which resists like it was made of steel! A small dribble of blood runs out where you would expect a flood. Suddenly his muscles tense and he breaks free of his bonds!" (IE: Bear totem resistance to non-magical piercing, followed by raging and gaining advantage on strength checks to break the ropes / manacles).
It might be too late for you to do this now, but equally if your PC's were taken captive I don't think they would like to be killed like chumps, so can probably understand the NPC's not going out this way. Your boss would still be unarmed, unarmoured and at a serious disadvantage, but at least he would have his HP and actions to make his escape.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I agree with adapt and move on, but an alternative is to
look at what the boss has up their sleeve to prevent this
An intelligent enemy won't put themselves into a situation they don't think they can escape from, so maybe he is a magic user and "You reach for your dagger and as you strike the captive vanishes, he reappears seconds later in the corridor, turns and runs" (IE: Casts Misty Step as a reaction).
Maybe he is a hardy barbarian and "You push the dagger into his chest which resists like it was made of steel! A small dribble of blood runs out where you would expect a flood. Suddenly his muscles tense and he breaks free of his bonds!" (IE: Bear totem resistance to non-magical piercing, followed by raging and gaining advantage on strength checks to break the ropes / manacles).
It might be too late for you to do this now, but equally if your PC's were taken captive I don't think they would like to be killed like chumps, so can probably understand the NPC's not going out this way. Your boss would still be unarmed, unarmoured and at a serious disadvantage, but at least he would have his HP and actions to make his escape.
$endgroup$
I agree with adapt and move on, but an alternative is to
look at what the boss has up their sleeve to prevent this
An intelligent enemy won't put themselves into a situation they don't think they can escape from, so maybe he is a magic user and "You reach for your dagger and as you strike the captive vanishes, he reappears seconds later in the corridor, turns and runs" (IE: Casts Misty Step as a reaction).
Maybe he is a hardy barbarian and "You push the dagger into his chest which resists like it was made of steel! A small dribble of blood runs out where you would expect a flood. Suddenly his muscles tense and he breaks free of his bonds!" (IE: Bear totem resistance to non-magical piercing, followed by raging and gaining advantage on strength checks to break the ropes / manacles).
It might be too late for you to do this now, but equally if your PC's were taken captive I don't think they would like to be killed like chumps, so can probably understand the NPC's not going out this way. Your boss would still be unarmed, unarmoured and at a serious disadvantage, but at least he would have his HP and actions to make his escape.
answered 14 hours ago
SeriousBriSeriousBri
6,09821750
6,09821750
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Serial outcomes to BBEG's execution: Revenant and/or Deputy
If you look into the Monster Manual entry for Revenant, you'll find this opener:
A revenant forms from the soul of a mortal who met a cruel and undeserving fate.
Whether the BBEG met a fate as characterized there is up to you as DM to decide, but as the party continues with their adventure they will eventually discover that they are being tracked by a Revenant. Or, the Revenant will make an entrance at a key moment with the stabber squarely in his sights.
Meanwhile, since the boss has been taken out ...
BBEG's deputy takes over
You don't miss a beat in the adventure. Your BBEG's right hand man/woman was looking into {something} concerning their criminal/evil/nefarious enterprise. As with various criminal organizations, once the top dog is gone Number Two takes the reins. Granted, you can let some time pass as this equally nasty opponent consolidates power within the bad guy group, but it's not that hard to drop hints that the bad things the BBEG's people were up to are still going on, or begin to go on again, with a slight change in style. (A different sign or letter is carved into the foreheads of assassinated foes of the organization, for example ...)
You can combine both of the above if you think it will fit the challenge and narrative for your party. Not only did Number Two take over (who now has an eye on how deadly the party is, and how ruthless the PC's are) but also the Revenant makes a grand entrance at a critical point.
Improvise, Overcome, Adapt. Gunny Highway's guidance applies to DMs as well as to Marines.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Serial outcomes to BBEG's execution: Revenant and/or Deputy
If you look into the Monster Manual entry for Revenant, you'll find this opener:
A revenant forms from the soul of a mortal who met a cruel and undeserving fate.
Whether the BBEG met a fate as characterized there is up to you as DM to decide, but as the party continues with their adventure they will eventually discover that they are being tracked by a Revenant. Or, the Revenant will make an entrance at a key moment with the stabber squarely in his sights.
Meanwhile, since the boss has been taken out ...
BBEG's deputy takes over
You don't miss a beat in the adventure. Your BBEG's right hand man/woman was looking into {something} concerning their criminal/evil/nefarious enterprise. As with various criminal organizations, once the top dog is gone Number Two takes the reins. Granted, you can let some time pass as this equally nasty opponent consolidates power within the bad guy group, but it's not that hard to drop hints that the bad things the BBEG's people were up to are still going on, or begin to go on again, with a slight change in style. (A different sign or letter is carved into the foreheads of assassinated foes of the organization, for example ...)
You can combine both of the above if you think it will fit the challenge and narrative for your party. Not only did Number Two take over (who now has an eye on how deadly the party is, and how ruthless the PC's are) but also the Revenant makes a grand entrance at a critical point.
Improvise, Overcome, Adapt. Gunny Highway's guidance applies to DMs as well as to Marines.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Serial outcomes to BBEG's execution: Revenant and/or Deputy
If you look into the Monster Manual entry for Revenant, you'll find this opener:
A revenant forms from the soul of a mortal who met a cruel and undeserving fate.
Whether the BBEG met a fate as characterized there is up to you as DM to decide, but as the party continues with their adventure they will eventually discover that they are being tracked by a Revenant. Or, the Revenant will make an entrance at a key moment with the stabber squarely in his sights.
Meanwhile, since the boss has been taken out ...
BBEG's deputy takes over
You don't miss a beat in the adventure. Your BBEG's right hand man/woman was looking into {something} concerning their criminal/evil/nefarious enterprise. As with various criminal organizations, once the top dog is gone Number Two takes the reins. Granted, you can let some time pass as this equally nasty opponent consolidates power within the bad guy group, but it's not that hard to drop hints that the bad things the BBEG's people were up to are still going on, or begin to go on again, with a slight change in style. (A different sign or letter is carved into the foreheads of assassinated foes of the organization, for example ...)
You can combine both of the above if you think it will fit the challenge and narrative for your party. Not only did Number Two take over (who now has an eye on how deadly the party is, and how ruthless the PC's are) but also the Revenant makes a grand entrance at a critical point.
Improvise, Overcome, Adapt. Gunny Highway's guidance applies to DMs as well as to Marines.
$endgroup$
Serial outcomes to BBEG's execution: Revenant and/or Deputy
If you look into the Monster Manual entry for Revenant, you'll find this opener:
A revenant forms from the soul of a mortal who met a cruel and undeserving fate.
Whether the BBEG met a fate as characterized there is up to you as DM to decide, but as the party continues with their adventure they will eventually discover that they are being tracked by a Revenant. Or, the Revenant will make an entrance at a key moment with the stabber squarely in his sights.
Meanwhile, since the boss has been taken out ...
BBEG's deputy takes over
You don't miss a beat in the adventure. Your BBEG's right hand man/woman was looking into {something} concerning their criminal/evil/nefarious enterprise. As with various criminal organizations, once the top dog is gone Number Two takes the reins. Granted, you can let some time pass as this equally nasty opponent consolidates power within the bad guy group, but it's not that hard to drop hints that the bad things the BBEG's people were up to are still going on, or begin to go on again, with a slight change in style. (A different sign or letter is carved into the foreheads of assassinated foes of the organization, for example ...)
You can combine both of the above if you think it will fit the challenge and narrative for your party. Not only did Number Two take over (who now has an eye on how deadly the party is, and how ruthless the PC's are) but also the Revenant makes a grand entrance at a critical point.
Improvise, Overcome, Adapt. Gunny Highway's guidance applies to DMs as well as to Marines.
answered 12 hours ago
KorvinStarmastKorvinStarmast
79.7k18249431
79.7k18249431
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If it hasn't happened yet, you can retcon.
As a GM, you have a "spoken" or "unspoken" agreement with the players. You set challenges, they solve them, your world is consistent and they have agency -- their actions matter. So if they defeated the Big Bad through quick thinking and a few lucky die rolls, they deserve a reward.
On the other hand, you are free to change any element of the game that hasn't happened "on stage" yet. You are not required to make a plan before the campaign starts and to stick to it, no matter what. Some options how to cheat and adapt:
- Reorganize the "chain of command" of the NPCs. The slain warrior was only the second-in-command, and you introduce a new Evil Overlord. Either this new boss is weaker than the old one, or the players are rewarded in some other way for their success.
- The slain warrior was the Big Bad, but with his disappearance the former second-in-command makes a move. Again the new boss is not quite as capable as the old one.
- As a variant, the Big Bad's conspiracy comes apart and new, different adventures happen. Send the players to secure the magic items in the slain warrior's arsenal, fighting a hundred brushfires rather than a big fight.
- If that is consistent with the information from the interrogation, decide that the slain warrior never was the Big Bad after all. He was a third party in the conflict, trying to profit from the mayhem in some way. That explains why he knew things, and it doesn't retcon him into an innocent.
Think through the clues that were handed out so far. Come up with a "new truth" consistent will all those clues. The slain warrior will be somewhere, but not necessarily on top of the pyramid.
Side note, as a GM you are allowed to cheat even in combat as long as you keep faith with the players. If cause-and-effect principles are violated, it follows the narrative logic. You deliver a fun challenge, they solve it. The actions of the NPCs affect the setting, and so do the actions of the PCs.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If it hasn't happened yet, you can retcon.
As a GM, you have a "spoken" or "unspoken" agreement with the players. You set challenges, they solve them, your world is consistent and they have agency -- their actions matter. So if they defeated the Big Bad through quick thinking and a few lucky die rolls, they deserve a reward.
On the other hand, you are free to change any element of the game that hasn't happened "on stage" yet. You are not required to make a plan before the campaign starts and to stick to it, no matter what. Some options how to cheat and adapt:
- Reorganize the "chain of command" of the NPCs. The slain warrior was only the second-in-command, and you introduce a new Evil Overlord. Either this new boss is weaker than the old one, or the players are rewarded in some other way for their success.
- The slain warrior was the Big Bad, but with his disappearance the former second-in-command makes a move. Again the new boss is not quite as capable as the old one.
- As a variant, the Big Bad's conspiracy comes apart and new, different adventures happen. Send the players to secure the magic items in the slain warrior's arsenal, fighting a hundred brushfires rather than a big fight.
- If that is consistent with the information from the interrogation, decide that the slain warrior never was the Big Bad after all. He was a third party in the conflict, trying to profit from the mayhem in some way. That explains why he knew things, and it doesn't retcon him into an innocent.
Think through the clues that were handed out so far. Come up with a "new truth" consistent will all those clues. The slain warrior will be somewhere, but not necessarily on top of the pyramid.
Side note, as a GM you are allowed to cheat even in combat as long as you keep faith with the players. If cause-and-effect principles are violated, it follows the narrative logic. You deliver a fun challenge, they solve it. The actions of the NPCs affect the setting, and so do the actions of the PCs.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
If it hasn't happened yet, you can retcon.
As a GM, you have a "spoken" or "unspoken" agreement with the players. You set challenges, they solve them, your world is consistent and they have agency -- their actions matter. So if they defeated the Big Bad through quick thinking and a few lucky die rolls, they deserve a reward.
On the other hand, you are free to change any element of the game that hasn't happened "on stage" yet. You are not required to make a plan before the campaign starts and to stick to it, no matter what. Some options how to cheat and adapt:
- Reorganize the "chain of command" of the NPCs. The slain warrior was only the second-in-command, and you introduce a new Evil Overlord. Either this new boss is weaker than the old one, or the players are rewarded in some other way for their success.
- The slain warrior was the Big Bad, but with his disappearance the former second-in-command makes a move. Again the new boss is not quite as capable as the old one.
- As a variant, the Big Bad's conspiracy comes apart and new, different adventures happen. Send the players to secure the magic items in the slain warrior's arsenal, fighting a hundred brushfires rather than a big fight.
- If that is consistent with the information from the interrogation, decide that the slain warrior never was the Big Bad after all. He was a third party in the conflict, trying to profit from the mayhem in some way. That explains why he knew things, and it doesn't retcon him into an innocent.
Think through the clues that were handed out so far. Come up with a "new truth" consistent will all those clues. The slain warrior will be somewhere, but not necessarily on top of the pyramid.
Side note, as a GM you are allowed to cheat even in combat as long as you keep faith with the players. If cause-and-effect principles are violated, it follows the narrative logic. You deliver a fun challenge, they solve it. The actions of the NPCs affect the setting, and so do the actions of the PCs.
$endgroup$
If it hasn't happened yet, you can retcon.
As a GM, you have a "spoken" or "unspoken" agreement with the players. You set challenges, they solve them, your world is consistent and they have agency -- their actions matter. So if they defeated the Big Bad through quick thinking and a few lucky die rolls, they deserve a reward.
On the other hand, you are free to change any element of the game that hasn't happened "on stage" yet. You are not required to make a plan before the campaign starts and to stick to it, no matter what. Some options how to cheat and adapt:
- Reorganize the "chain of command" of the NPCs. The slain warrior was only the second-in-command, and you introduce a new Evil Overlord. Either this new boss is weaker than the old one, or the players are rewarded in some other way for their success.
- The slain warrior was the Big Bad, but with his disappearance the former second-in-command makes a move. Again the new boss is not quite as capable as the old one.
- As a variant, the Big Bad's conspiracy comes apart and new, different adventures happen. Send the players to secure the magic items in the slain warrior's arsenal, fighting a hundred brushfires rather than a big fight.
- If that is consistent with the information from the interrogation, decide that the slain warrior never was the Big Bad after all. He was a third party in the conflict, trying to profit from the mayhem in some way. That explains why he knew things, and it doesn't retcon him into an innocent.
Think through the clues that were handed out so far. Come up with a "new truth" consistent will all those clues. The slain warrior will be somewhere, but not necessarily on top of the pyramid.
Side note, as a GM you are allowed to cheat even in combat as long as you keep faith with the players. If cause-and-effect principles are violated, it follows the narrative logic. You deliver a fun challenge, they solve it. The actions of the NPCs affect the setting, and so do the actions of the PCs.
answered 10 hours ago
o.m.o.m.
57024
57024
add a comment |
add a comment |
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I would think it would be easier to have the slain NPC a doppleganger or simulacrum as opposed to the actual boss. This keeps the story line in place and will have a shocking effect on the PC's when they finally confront this boss. On a side note, what if any repercussions will happen to the PC that actually killed the NPC (does his alignment allow said action.) It's been a while since I've gamed, but depending on alignment there is usually something that happens if the PC acted against his alignment.
New contributor
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$begingroup$
Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance. Note that 5e has very few mechanics relating to alignment, and there's very little mechanical impact for "acting against your alignment" (and very little definition of what that even means). In addition, you should support your suggestions with evidence or experience; why are those suggestions a good way to resolve the issue?
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– V2Blast
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I would think it would be easier to have the slain NPC a doppleganger or simulacrum as opposed to the actual boss. This keeps the story line in place and will have a shocking effect on the PC's when they finally confront this boss. On a side note, what if any repercussions will happen to the PC that actually killed the NPC (does his alignment allow said action.) It's been a while since I've gamed, but depending on alignment there is usually something that happens if the PC acted against his alignment.
New contributor
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance. Note that 5e has very few mechanics relating to alignment, and there's very little mechanical impact for "acting against your alignment" (and very little definition of what that even means). In addition, you should support your suggestions with evidence or experience; why are those suggestions a good way to resolve the issue?
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I would think it would be easier to have the slain NPC a doppleganger or simulacrum as opposed to the actual boss. This keeps the story line in place and will have a shocking effect on the PC's when they finally confront this boss. On a side note, what if any repercussions will happen to the PC that actually killed the NPC (does his alignment allow said action.) It's been a while since I've gamed, but depending on alignment there is usually something that happens if the PC acted against his alignment.
New contributor
$endgroup$
I would think it would be easier to have the slain NPC a doppleganger or simulacrum as opposed to the actual boss. This keeps the story line in place and will have a shocking effect on the PC's when they finally confront this boss. On a side note, what if any repercussions will happen to the PC that actually killed the NPC (does his alignment allow said action.) It's been a while since I've gamed, but depending on alignment there is usually something that happens if the PC acted against his alignment.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 5 hours ago
FragmondFragmond
1
1
New contributor
New contributor
$begingroup$
Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance. Note that 5e has very few mechanics relating to alignment, and there's very little mechanical impact for "acting against your alignment" (and very little definition of what that even means). In addition, you should support your suggestions with evidence or experience; why are those suggestions a good way to resolve the issue?
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance. Note that 5e has very few mechanics relating to alignment, and there's very little mechanical impact for "acting against your alignment" (and very little definition of what that even means). In addition, you should support your suggestions with evidence or experience; why are those suggestions a good way to resolve the issue?
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance. Note that 5e has very few mechanics relating to alignment, and there's very little mechanical impact for "acting against your alignment" (and very little definition of what that even means). In addition, you should support your suggestions with evidence or experience; why are those suggestions a good way to resolve the issue?
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance. Note that 5e has very few mechanics relating to alignment, and there's very little mechanical impact for "acting against your alignment" (and very little definition of what that even means). In addition, you should support your suggestions with evidence or experience; why are those suggestions a good way to resolve the issue?
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
4 hours ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Just to confirm: Are you talking about how to handle this with regards to your planned plot and adventure? Or about the more direct consequences of your PCs killing NPCs in such a way?
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– PJRZ
15 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Aiming more for the first option. Imagine having one of the most powerful warriors of the kingdom killed by a throat cut because the rogue rolled 19 on sneak. In this kind of scenarios, i doubt if I should allow it and move on or give it a little more thought process.
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– LarK
15 hours ago
6
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As I understand it, the players did not learn that he was the boss through the interrogation. What is stopping you from just ret-conning him as an underling?
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– frog
14 hours ago
4
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Out of curiosity, did you allow the rogue to literally one-shot the boss by slitting their throat? If so are you aware that this is not supported by the rules or did you just decide to houserule and allow it?
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– Rubiksmoose
11 hours ago
1
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@LarK I made a followup question here that might help, but maybe not completely, address further concerns. Essentially it's up to you as a DM to handle, but there are things to consider either way.
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– convoliution
7 hours ago