Explain the objections to these measures against human trafficking












6















In the state I live there are some measures being discussed that are meant to combat human trafficking. A couple of the ones I've heard are:




  1. One is to close down illicit massage parlors


  2. Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)



Now, I've heard that there is some controversy to these suggestions. Some say that 1 will force victims out onto the streets and into more dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.



An objection to 2 I heard was that 2 would put victims at higher risk of retribution from traffickers, and that it should only be done with the consent of the victim. This too I do not understand, as I thought there would be discretion on part of the law and that victims might have a hard time speaking up.



Could someone explain the measures and the objections further? Some of these come from advocacy groups and while I value their insight and respect their work I have a hard time fully understanding. I don't know how to ask but I would also appreciate hearing any other aspects of the debate too










share|improve this question


















  • 2





    "...I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue" In a perfect world, yes. However, just as in instances where children obviously need to be removed from an abusive situation, people fall through the cracks. This is neither an argument for nor against the proposal in question, just elaborating on the realities of the situation.

    – John Doe
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    Looking at your profile, it seems the state you're asking about is Florida. The second proposal you list is most likely SB 540, but it's unclear to me whether the first is the same one or a different one entirely. Adding this here to help potential answerers.

    – Jeff Lambert
    3 hours ago






  • 2





    Probably the objection about forcing the victims into the street are not necessarily about the specific victims in any one massage parlor, as much as the general population and potential future victims.

    – PoloHoleSet
    2 hours ago
















6















In the state I live there are some measures being discussed that are meant to combat human trafficking. A couple of the ones I've heard are:




  1. One is to close down illicit massage parlors


  2. Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)



Now, I've heard that there is some controversy to these suggestions. Some say that 1 will force victims out onto the streets and into more dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.



An objection to 2 I heard was that 2 would put victims at higher risk of retribution from traffickers, and that it should only be done with the consent of the victim. This too I do not understand, as I thought there would be discretion on part of the law and that victims might have a hard time speaking up.



Could someone explain the measures and the objections further? Some of these come from advocacy groups and while I value their insight and respect their work I have a hard time fully understanding. I don't know how to ask but I would also appreciate hearing any other aspects of the debate too










share|improve this question


















  • 2





    "...I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue" In a perfect world, yes. However, just as in instances where children obviously need to be removed from an abusive situation, people fall through the cracks. This is neither an argument for nor against the proposal in question, just elaborating on the realities of the situation.

    – John Doe
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    Looking at your profile, it seems the state you're asking about is Florida. The second proposal you list is most likely SB 540, but it's unclear to me whether the first is the same one or a different one entirely. Adding this here to help potential answerers.

    – Jeff Lambert
    3 hours ago






  • 2





    Probably the objection about forcing the victims into the street are not necessarily about the specific victims in any one massage parlor, as much as the general population and potential future victims.

    – PoloHoleSet
    2 hours ago














6












6








6








In the state I live there are some measures being discussed that are meant to combat human trafficking. A couple of the ones I've heard are:




  1. One is to close down illicit massage parlors


  2. Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)



Now, I've heard that there is some controversy to these suggestions. Some say that 1 will force victims out onto the streets and into more dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.



An objection to 2 I heard was that 2 would put victims at higher risk of retribution from traffickers, and that it should only be done with the consent of the victim. This too I do not understand, as I thought there would be discretion on part of the law and that victims might have a hard time speaking up.



Could someone explain the measures and the objections further? Some of these come from advocacy groups and while I value their insight and respect their work I have a hard time fully understanding. I don't know how to ask but I would also appreciate hearing any other aspects of the debate too










share|improve this question














In the state I live there are some measures being discussed that are meant to combat human trafficking. A couple of the ones I've heard are:




  1. One is to close down illicit massage parlors


  2. Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)



Now, I've heard that there is some controversy to these suggestions. Some say that 1 will force victims out onto the streets and into more dangerous situations. I don't understand this objection as I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue.



An objection to 2 I heard was that 2 would put victims at higher risk of retribution from traffickers, and that it should only be done with the consent of the victim. This too I do not understand, as I thought there would be discretion on part of the law and that victims might have a hard time speaking up.



Could someone explain the measures and the objections further? Some of these come from advocacy groups and while I value their insight and respect their work I have a hard time fully understanding. I don't know how to ask but I would also appreciate hearing any other aspects of the debate too







united-states human-trafficking






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asked 4 hours ago









user1675016user1675016

47428




47428








  • 2





    "...I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue" In a perfect world, yes. However, just as in instances where children obviously need to be removed from an abusive situation, people fall through the cracks. This is neither an argument for nor against the proposal in question, just elaborating on the realities of the situation.

    – John Doe
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    Looking at your profile, it seems the state you're asking about is Florida. The second proposal you list is most likely SB 540, but it's unclear to me whether the first is the same one or a different one entirely. Adding this here to help potential answerers.

    – Jeff Lambert
    3 hours ago






  • 2





    Probably the objection about forcing the victims into the street are not necessarily about the specific victims in any one massage parlor, as much as the general population and potential future victims.

    – PoloHoleSet
    2 hours ago














  • 2





    "...I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue" In a perfect world, yes. However, just as in instances where children obviously need to be removed from an abusive situation, people fall through the cracks. This is neither an argument for nor against the proposal in question, just elaborating on the realities of the situation.

    – John Doe
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    Looking at your profile, it seems the state you're asking about is Florida. The second proposal you list is most likely SB 540, but it's unclear to me whether the first is the same one or a different one entirely. Adding this here to help potential answerers.

    – Jeff Lambert
    3 hours ago






  • 2





    Probably the objection about forcing the victims into the street are not necessarily about the specific victims in any one massage parlor, as much as the general population and potential future victims.

    – PoloHoleSet
    2 hours ago








2




2





"...I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue" In a perfect world, yes. However, just as in instances where children obviously need to be removed from an abusive situation, people fall through the cracks. This is neither an argument for nor against the proposal in question, just elaborating on the realities of the situation.

– John Doe
3 hours ago





"...I had imagined that shutting down the shop would include rescue" In a perfect world, yes. However, just as in instances where children obviously need to be removed from an abusive situation, people fall through the cracks. This is neither an argument for nor against the proposal in question, just elaborating on the realities of the situation.

– John Doe
3 hours ago




1




1





Looking at your profile, it seems the state you're asking about is Florida. The second proposal you list is most likely SB 540, but it's unclear to me whether the first is the same one or a different one entirely. Adding this here to help potential answerers.

– Jeff Lambert
3 hours ago





Looking at your profile, it seems the state you're asking about is Florida. The second proposal you list is most likely SB 540, but it's unclear to me whether the first is the same one or a different one entirely. Adding this here to help potential answerers.

– Jeff Lambert
3 hours ago




2




2





Probably the objection about forcing the victims into the street are not necessarily about the specific victims in any one massage parlor, as much as the general population and potential future victims.

– PoloHoleSet
2 hours ago





Probably the objection about forcing the victims into the street are not necessarily about the specific victims in any one massage parlor, as much as the general population and potential future victims.

– PoloHoleSet
2 hours ago










4 Answers
4






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9














For case 1, the unstated assumptions are that prostitution will take place regardless of the government's attempts to stop it, and even if there are illicit massage parlors populated with victims of human trafficking, there are also illicit massage parlors with voluntary prostitutes. The voluntary prostitutes will not be "rescued" because, they don't need "rescuing" and if they keep doing sex work they will do it elsewhere. There are many values of "elsewhere" more dangerous for the prostitute and less desirable for society than an illicit massage parlor, e.g. city streets.



For case 2, most mandatory reporting laws require that the mandatory reporter's personally identifying information be taken and made available. This information may be published to other law enforcement personnel and may appear in court documents depending on how a case proceeds. The reporter therefore can be subject to intimidation. Also, if you know who the reporter is, it is a trivial exercise for a criminal organization to determine when and where that person works and therefore determine who is likely to be the victim that caused the report to be filed.






share|improve this answer
























  • For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

    – jamesqf
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    @jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

    – Azor Ahai
    1 hour ago











  • @jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

    – Joe
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    @Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

    – Azor Ahai
    50 mins ago











  • San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

    – AShelly
    4 mins ago





















5














One issue with the second proposal as you've phrased it is that hotel workers run the gamut from cleaners to managers; is every hotel worker supposed to get training on recognizing human trafficking at a glance? How effective is that training, in reality?



I imagine many hotels have high turnover rates, so I would expect the industry to object on the cost of training all employees to spot human trafficking.



Third, I would also expect the industry to be reticent to start accusing their patrons of human trafficking - especially those with wealthy clientele - even if they don't state it publicly. Imagine the media storm if a Hilton accused a parent of trafficking based on the skin color and appearance of their adopted child.






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  • On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

    – Reed
    30 mins ago











  • Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

    – Mark
    24 mins ago



















0














The measures you're describing don't target trafficking, but sex work. They mean that sex workers will move away from high-visibility areas where they're less likely to come to harm but are more likely to be noticed by the authorities, and into more dangerous situations.



For example, if they can't work out of hotels without getting arrested for being a victim of trafficking (and yes, despite being the ostensible victim, they're often arrested), then they'll bring their clients back to their houses instead, with obvious risks if a client feels entitled to more than is being offered.



Sex workers are more likely to turn to any source of protection, which will lead to them being more likely to be trafficked.



All of this is also ignoring the fact that most trafficking victims in the US are not sex workers but domestic staff. It's attacking the wrong problem and then using the worst possible approach to do so.






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    0















    Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)




    To add to the other answers, one problem with this is that is causes severe problems for people with uncommon family structures that frequently can resemble human trafficking to well-meaning, but untrained, people. This is particularly a problem for people who had adopted children of a different race or people whose children don't look very much like them.



    Young black men tend to fit a stereotype of a human trafficker more than a middle-aged white person would. So a young black man with a daughter who looks white may be reported to police while a middle-aged white man with a daughter who looks white may not be. These kinds of events are often not handled particularly well be police and there are some horror stories involving children separated from their parents and interrogated in ways that severely affected them.



    The problem is simply that people whose families just happen to resemble untrained people's stereotypes of human trafficking will wind up having unpleasant encounters with police in situations involving them and their small children. It's like police stopping people who "don't look like they belong in this neighborhood", but worse.



    Will specific employees be trained in recognizing actual signs of human trafficking or coerced sex work and accurately reply their suspicions to police? Or will every employee be told to report anything they think as suspicious, based on their personal life experiences and biases about what a family looks like, in a way that doesn't accurately convey the possibility of innocent explanations? The former might be unobjectionable, but the fear is that we'll actually get the latter.





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      4 Answers
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      4 Answers
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      For case 1, the unstated assumptions are that prostitution will take place regardless of the government's attempts to stop it, and even if there are illicit massage parlors populated with victims of human trafficking, there are also illicit massage parlors with voluntary prostitutes. The voluntary prostitutes will not be "rescued" because, they don't need "rescuing" and if they keep doing sex work they will do it elsewhere. There are many values of "elsewhere" more dangerous for the prostitute and less desirable for society than an illicit massage parlor, e.g. city streets.



      For case 2, most mandatory reporting laws require that the mandatory reporter's personally identifying information be taken and made available. This information may be published to other law enforcement personnel and may appear in court documents depending on how a case proceeds. The reporter therefore can be subject to intimidation. Also, if you know who the reporter is, it is a trivial exercise for a criminal organization to determine when and where that person works and therefore determine who is likely to be the victim that caused the report to be filed.






      share|improve this answer
























      • For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

        – jamesqf
        2 hours ago






      • 2





        @jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

        – Azor Ahai
        1 hour ago











      • @jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

        – Joe
        1 hour ago






      • 1





        @Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

        – Azor Ahai
        50 mins ago











      • San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

        – AShelly
        4 mins ago


















      9














      For case 1, the unstated assumptions are that prostitution will take place regardless of the government's attempts to stop it, and even if there are illicit massage parlors populated with victims of human trafficking, there are also illicit massage parlors with voluntary prostitutes. The voluntary prostitutes will not be "rescued" because, they don't need "rescuing" and if they keep doing sex work they will do it elsewhere. There are many values of "elsewhere" more dangerous for the prostitute and less desirable for society than an illicit massage parlor, e.g. city streets.



      For case 2, most mandatory reporting laws require that the mandatory reporter's personally identifying information be taken and made available. This information may be published to other law enforcement personnel and may appear in court documents depending on how a case proceeds. The reporter therefore can be subject to intimidation. Also, if you know who the reporter is, it is a trivial exercise for a criminal organization to determine when and where that person works and therefore determine who is likely to be the victim that caused the report to be filed.






      share|improve this answer
























      • For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

        – jamesqf
        2 hours ago






      • 2





        @jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

        – Azor Ahai
        1 hour ago











      • @jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

        – Joe
        1 hour ago






      • 1





        @Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

        – Azor Ahai
        50 mins ago











      • San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

        – AShelly
        4 mins ago
















      9












      9








      9







      For case 1, the unstated assumptions are that prostitution will take place regardless of the government's attempts to stop it, and even if there are illicit massage parlors populated with victims of human trafficking, there are also illicit massage parlors with voluntary prostitutes. The voluntary prostitutes will not be "rescued" because, they don't need "rescuing" and if they keep doing sex work they will do it elsewhere. There are many values of "elsewhere" more dangerous for the prostitute and less desirable for society than an illicit massage parlor, e.g. city streets.



      For case 2, most mandatory reporting laws require that the mandatory reporter's personally identifying information be taken and made available. This information may be published to other law enforcement personnel and may appear in court documents depending on how a case proceeds. The reporter therefore can be subject to intimidation. Also, if you know who the reporter is, it is a trivial exercise for a criminal organization to determine when and where that person works and therefore determine who is likely to be the victim that caused the report to be filed.






      share|improve this answer













      For case 1, the unstated assumptions are that prostitution will take place regardless of the government's attempts to stop it, and even if there are illicit massage parlors populated with victims of human trafficking, there are also illicit massage parlors with voluntary prostitutes. The voluntary prostitutes will not be "rescued" because, they don't need "rescuing" and if they keep doing sex work they will do it elsewhere. There are many values of "elsewhere" more dangerous for the prostitute and less desirable for society than an illicit massage parlor, e.g. city streets.



      For case 2, most mandatory reporting laws require that the mandatory reporter's personally identifying information be taken and made available. This information may be published to other law enforcement personnel and may appear in court documents depending on how a case proceeds. The reporter therefore can be subject to intimidation. Also, if you know who the reporter is, it is a trivial exercise for a criminal organization to determine when and where that person works and therefore determine who is likely to be the victim that caused the report to be filed.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 3 hours ago









      JoeJoe

      1,244110




      1,244110













      • For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

        – jamesqf
        2 hours ago






      • 2





        @jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

        – Azor Ahai
        1 hour ago











      • @jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

        – Joe
        1 hour ago






      • 1





        @Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

        – Azor Ahai
        50 mins ago











      • San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

        – AShelly
        4 mins ago





















      • For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

        – jamesqf
        2 hours ago






      • 2





        @jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

        – Azor Ahai
        1 hour ago











      • @jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

        – Joe
        1 hour ago






      • 1





        @Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

        – Azor Ahai
        50 mins ago











      • San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

        – AShelly
        4 mins ago



















      For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

      – jamesqf
      2 hours ago





      For case #1, I've always found it rather difficult to understand why "human trafficing" would be involved at all in "normal" prostitution. (Obviously child porn &c could be different.) It would seem far more efficient simply to hire willing workers, rather than to maintain a substantial network of thugs &c.

      – jamesqf
      2 hours ago




      2




      2





      @jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

      – Azor Ahai
      1 hour ago





      @jamesqf The fact that's not what happens would seem to belie the notion it's more efficient. || If you have the muscle, it's cheaper to force someone to do something for you than it is to pay them money. Many people get caught up in these things out of desperation, or a chance to get to a 1st world country. If you pay them money, they can quit. Human traffickers are bad people ... it's no wonder they don't think of wages and balance sheets like you do behind your desk.

      – Azor Ahai
      1 hour ago













      @jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

      – Joe
      1 hour ago





      @jamesqf Prostitution is illegal, which you can imagine as a minimum wage of infinity on sex work. If human traffickers are willing to smuggle people into the United States to pick lettuce at $5 to $10/hr less than the minimum wage, imagine how willing they would be to smuggle women in to have sex at infinity less than the minimum wage.

      – Joe
      1 hour ago




      1




      1





      @Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

      – Azor Ahai
      50 mins ago





      @Joe A minimum wage of infinity dollars would be quite high

      – Azor Ahai
      50 mins ago













      San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

      – AShelly
      4 mins ago







      San Francisco had a spike of streetwalking and trafficking as a result of similar laws

      – AShelly
      4 mins ago













      5














      One issue with the second proposal as you've phrased it is that hotel workers run the gamut from cleaners to managers; is every hotel worker supposed to get training on recognizing human trafficking at a glance? How effective is that training, in reality?



      I imagine many hotels have high turnover rates, so I would expect the industry to object on the cost of training all employees to spot human trafficking.



      Third, I would also expect the industry to be reticent to start accusing their patrons of human trafficking - especially those with wealthy clientele - even if they don't state it publicly. Imagine the media storm if a Hilton accused a parent of trafficking based on the skin color and appearance of their adopted child.






      share|improve this answer
























      • On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

        – Reed
        30 mins ago











      • Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

        – Mark
        24 mins ago
















      5














      One issue with the second proposal as you've phrased it is that hotel workers run the gamut from cleaners to managers; is every hotel worker supposed to get training on recognizing human trafficking at a glance? How effective is that training, in reality?



      I imagine many hotels have high turnover rates, so I would expect the industry to object on the cost of training all employees to spot human trafficking.



      Third, I would also expect the industry to be reticent to start accusing their patrons of human trafficking - especially those with wealthy clientele - even if they don't state it publicly. Imagine the media storm if a Hilton accused a parent of trafficking based on the skin color and appearance of their adopted child.






      share|improve this answer
























      • On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

        – Reed
        30 mins ago











      • Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

        – Mark
        24 mins ago














      5












      5








      5







      One issue with the second proposal as you've phrased it is that hotel workers run the gamut from cleaners to managers; is every hotel worker supposed to get training on recognizing human trafficking at a glance? How effective is that training, in reality?



      I imagine many hotels have high turnover rates, so I would expect the industry to object on the cost of training all employees to spot human trafficking.



      Third, I would also expect the industry to be reticent to start accusing their patrons of human trafficking - especially those with wealthy clientele - even if they don't state it publicly. Imagine the media storm if a Hilton accused a parent of trafficking based on the skin color and appearance of their adopted child.






      share|improve this answer













      One issue with the second proposal as you've phrased it is that hotel workers run the gamut from cleaners to managers; is every hotel worker supposed to get training on recognizing human trafficking at a glance? How effective is that training, in reality?



      I imagine many hotels have high turnover rates, so I would expect the industry to object on the cost of training all employees to spot human trafficking.



      Third, I would also expect the industry to be reticent to start accusing their patrons of human trafficking - especially those with wealthy clientele - even if they don't state it publicly. Imagine the media storm if a Hilton accused a parent of trafficking based on the skin color and appearance of their adopted child.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 2 hours ago









      Azor AhaiAzor Ahai

      1,270724




      1,270724













      • On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

        – Reed
        30 mins ago











      • Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

        – Mark
        24 mins ago



















      • On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

        – Reed
        30 mins ago











      • Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

        – Mark
        24 mins ago

















      On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

      – Reed
      30 mins ago





      On top of that, the employees could be illegal immigrants and depending on the location helping stop human trafficking could lead to their own deportation. That would incentivize them to look the other way even if that is not the right thing to do.

      – Reed
      30 mins ago













      Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

      – Mark
      24 mins ago





      Anecdotal evidence, but from talking to a police officer, the ability of hotel workers to recognize sex trafficking ranges from "bad joke" to "highly counterproductive". Every single case of "child prostitution" he'd been sent to investigate turned out to be a father traveling with his daughter (most often, black father with light-skinned daughter), while adult prostitution was either father/teenage daughter, or college-age couple (again, with an over-representation of mixed-race pairs).

      – Mark
      24 mins ago











      0














      The measures you're describing don't target trafficking, but sex work. They mean that sex workers will move away from high-visibility areas where they're less likely to come to harm but are more likely to be noticed by the authorities, and into more dangerous situations.



      For example, if they can't work out of hotels without getting arrested for being a victim of trafficking (and yes, despite being the ostensible victim, they're often arrested), then they'll bring their clients back to their houses instead, with obvious risks if a client feels entitled to more than is being offered.



      Sex workers are more likely to turn to any source of protection, which will lead to them being more likely to be trafficked.



      All of this is also ignoring the fact that most trafficking victims in the US are not sex workers but domestic staff. It's attacking the wrong problem and then using the worst possible approach to do so.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.

























        0














        The measures you're describing don't target trafficking, but sex work. They mean that sex workers will move away from high-visibility areas where they're less likely to come to harm but are more likely to be noticed by the authorities, and into more dangerous situations.



        For example, if they can't work out of hotels without getting arrested for being a victim of trafficking (and yes, despite being the ostensible victim, they're often arrested), then they'll bring their clients back to their houses instead, with obvious risks if a client feels entitled to more than is being offered.



        Sex workers are more likely to turn to any source of protection, which will lead to them being more likely to be trafficked.



        All of this is also ignoring the fact that most trafficking victims in the US are not sex workers but domestic staff. It's attacking the wrong problem and then using the worst possible approach to do so.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.























          0












          0








          0







          The measures you're describing don't target trafficking, but sex work. They mean that sex workers will move away from high-visibility areas where they're less likely to come to harm but are more likely to be noticed by the authorities, and into more dangerous situations.



          For example, if they can't work out of hotels without getting arrested for being a victim of trafficking (and yes, despite being the ostensible victim, they're often arrested), then they'll bring their clients back to their houses instead, with obvious risks if a client feels entitled to more than is being offered.



          Sex workers are more likely to turn to any source of protection, which will lead to them being more likely to be trafficked.



          All of this is also ignoring the fact that most trafficking victims in the US are not sex workers but domestic staff. It's attacking the wrong problem and then using the worst possible approach to do so.






          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.










          The measures you're describing don't target trafficking, but sex work. They mean that sex workers will move away from high-visibility areas where they're less likely to come to harm but are more likely to be noticed by the authorities, and into more dangerous situations.



          For example, if they can't work out of hotels without getting arrested for being a victim of trafficking (and yes, despite being the ostensible victim, they're often arrested), then they'll bring their clients back to their houses instead, with obvious risks if a client feels entitled to more than is being offered.



          Sex workers are more likely to turn to any source of protection, which will lead to them being more likely to be trafficked.



          All of this is also ignoring the fact that most trafficking victims in the US are not sex workers but domestic staff. It's attacking the wrong problem and then using the worst possible approach to do so.







          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer






          New contributor




          Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          answered 21 mins ago









          Ross ThompsonRoss Thompson

          1




          1




          New contributor




          Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.





          New contributor





          Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          Ross Thompson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.























              0















              Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)




              To add to the other answers, one problem with this is that is causes severe problems for people with uncommon family structures that frequently can resemble human trafficking to well-meaning, but untrained, people. This is particularly a problem for people who had adopted children of a different race or people whose children don't look very much like them.



              Young black men tend to fit a stereotype of a human trafficker more than a middle-aged white person would. So a young black man with a daughter who looks white may be reported to police while a middle-aged white man with a daughter who looks white may not be. These kinds of events are often not handled particularly well be police and there are some horror stories involving children separated from their parents and interrogated in ways that severely affected them.



              The problem is simply that people whose families just happen to resemble untrained people's stereotypes of human trafficking will wind up having unpleasant encounters with police in situations involving them and their small children. It's like police stopping people who "don't look like they belong in this neighborhood", but worse.



              Will specific employees be trained in recognizing actual signs of human trafficking or coerced sex work and accurately reply their suspicions to police? Or will every employee be told to report anything they think as suspicious, based on their personal life experiences and biases about what a family looks like, in a way that doesn't accurately convey the possibility of innocent explanations? The former might be unobjectionable, but the fear is that we'll actually get the latter.





              share




























                0















                Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)




                To add to the other answers, one problem with this is that is causes severe problems for people with uncommon family structures that frequently can resemble human trafficking to well-meaning, but untrained, people. This is particularly a problem for people who had adopted children of a different race or people whose children don't look very much like them.



                Young black men tend to fit a stereotype of a human trafficker more than a middle-aged white person would. So a young black man with a daughter who looks white may be reported to police while a middle-aged white man with a daughter who looks white may not be. These kinds of events are often not handled particularly well be police and there are some horror stories involving children separated from their parents and interrogated in ways that severely affected them.



                The problem is simply that people whose families just happen to resemble untrained people's stereotypes of human trafficking will wind up having unpleasant encounters with police in situations involving them and their small children. It's like police stopping people who "don't look like they belong in this neighborhood", but worse.



                Will specific employees be trained in recognizing actual signs of human trafficking or coerced sex work and accurately reply their suspicions to police? Or will every employee be told to report anything they think as suspicious, based on their personal life experiences and biases about what a family looks like, in a way that doesn't accurately convey the possibility of innocent explanations? The former might be unobjectionable, but the fear is that we'll actually get the latter.





                share


























                  0












                  0








                  0








                  Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)




                  To add to the other answers, one problem with this is that is causes severe problems for people with uncommon family structures that frequently can resemble human trafficking to well-meaning, but untrained, people. This is particularly a problem for people who had adopted children of a different race or people whose children don't look very much like them.



                  Young black men tend to fit a stereotype of a human trafficker more than a middle-aged white person would. So a young black man with a daughter who looks white may be reported to police while a middle-aged white man with a daughter who looks white may not be. These kinds of events are often not handled particularly well be police and there are some horror stories involving children separated from their parents and interrogated in ways that severely affected them.



                  The problem is simply that people whose families just happen to resemble untrained people's stereotypes of human trafficking will wind up having unpleasant encounters with police in situations involving them and their small children. It's like police stopping people who "don't look like they belong in this neighborhood", but worse.



                  Will specific employees be trained in recognizing actual signs of human trafficking or coerced sex work and accurately reply their suspicions to police? Or will every employee be told to report anything they think as suspicious, based on their personal life experiences and biases about what a family looks like, in a way that doesn't accurately convey the possibility of innocent explanations? The former might be unobjectionable, but the fear is that we'll actually get the latter.





                  share














                  Another is for hotel workers to report suspected victims of human trafficking (who are likely underage)




                  To add to the other answers, one problem with this is that is causes severe problems for people with uncommon family structures that frequently can resemble human trafficking to well-meaning, but untrained, people. This is particularly a problem for people who had adopted children of a different race or people whose children don't look very much like them.



                  Young black men tend to fit a stereotype of a human trafficker more than a middle-aged white person would. So a young black man with a daughter who looks white may be reported to police while a middle-aged white man with a daughter who looks white may not be. These kinds of events are often not handled particularly well be police and there are some horror stories involving children separated from their parents and interrogated in ways that severely affected them.



                  The problem is simply that people whose families just happen to resemble untrained people's stereotypes of human trafficking will wind up having unpleasant encounters with police in situations involving them and their small children. It's like police stopping people who "don't look like they belong in this neighborhood", but worse.



                  Will specific employees be trained in recognizing actual signs of human trafficking or coerced sex work and accurately reply their suspicions to police? Or will every employee be told to report anything they think as suspicious, based on their personal life experiences and biases about what a family looks like, in a way that doesn't accurately convey the possibility of innocent explanations? The former might be unobjectionable, but the fear is that we'll actually get the latter.






                  share











                  share


                  share










                  answered 3 mins ago









                  David SchwartzDavid Schwartz

                  1,490312




                  1,490312






























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