Does paint affect EMI ability of enclosure?












8












$begingroup$


This could be a very stupid question, but when it comes to RF you never know.



Does painting (non-conductive) over the top of a grounded metal enclosure affect its ability to absorb/block RF interference? At the mechanical fixings, the enclosure is not painted and has a good ground connection.



I was wondering because I remembered that RF currents travel on the surface of conductors. Would they just travel "beneath" the paint?



Thanks.






emc enclosure







share|improve this question









New contributor




Jack the Lad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What kind of paint?
    $endgroup$
    – Eugene Sh.
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Non-conductive paint
    $endgroup$
    – Jack the Lad
    9 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This is a qualified it depends. If you paint over a ground plane then no. If it's part on an enclosure and the the paint acts as an insulator between the lid and the base, both conductive then yes. This is not a detailed explanation of why but I will leave that for a proper answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Warren Hill
    9 hours ago
















8












$begingroup$


This could be a very stupid question, but when it comes to RF you never know.



Does painting (non-conductive) over the top of a grounded metal enclosure affect its ability to absorb/block RF interference? At the mechanical fixings, the enclosure is not painted and has a good ground connection.



I was wondering because I remembered that RF currents travel on the surface of conductors. Would they just travel "beneath" the paint?



Thanks.






emc enclosure







share|improve this question









New contributor




Jack the Lad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What kind of paint?
    $endgroup$
    – Eugene Sh.
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Non-conductive paint
    $endgroup$
    – Jack the Lad
    9 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This is a qualified it depends. If you paint over a ground plane then no. If it's part on an enclosure and the the paint acts as an insulator between the lid and the base, both conductive then yes. This is not a detailed explanation of why but I will leave that for a proper answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Warren Hill
    9 hours ago














8












8








8





$begingroup$


This could be a very stupid question, but when it comes to RF you never know.



Does painting (non-conductive) over the top of a grounded metal enclosure affect its ability to absorb/block RF interference? At the mechanical fixings, the enclosure is not painted and has a good ground connection.



I was wondering because I remembered that RF currents travel on the surface of conductors. Would they just travel "beneath" the paint?



Thanks.






emc enclosure







share|improve this question









New contributor




Jack the Lad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




This could be a very stupid question, but when it comes to RF you never know.



Does painting (non-conductive) over the top of a grounded metal enclosure affect its ability to absorb/block RF interference? At the mechanical fixings, the enclosure is not painted and has a good ground connection.



I was wondering because I remembered that RF currents travel on the surface of conductors. Would they just travel "beneath" the paint?



Thanks.






emc enclosure




emc enclosure






share|improve this question









New contributor




Jack the Lad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









New contributor




Jack the Lad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 1 hour ago









SamGibson

11.1k41737




11.1k41737






New contributor




Jack the Lad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 9 hours ago









Jack the LadJack the Lad

484




484




New contributor




Jack the Lad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Jack the Lad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Jack the Lad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What kind of paint?
    $endgroup$
    – Eugene Sh.
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Non-conductive paint
    $endgroup$
    – Jack the Lad
    9 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This is a qualified it depends. If you paint over a ground plane then no. If it's part on an enclosure and the the paint acts as an insulator between the lid and the base, both conductive then yes. This is not a detailed explanation of why but I will leave that for a proper answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Warren Hill
    9 hours ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What kind of paint?
    $endgroup$
    – Eugene Sh.
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Non-conductive paint
    $endgroup$
    – Jack the Lad
    9 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This is a qualified it depends. If you paint over a ground plane then no. If it's part on an enclosure and the the paint acts as an insulator between the lid and the base, both conductive then yes. This is not a detailed explanation of why but I will leave that for a proper answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Warren Hill
    9 hours ago








1




1




$begingroup$
What kind of paint?
$endgroup$
– Eugene Sh.
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
What kind of paint?
$endgroup$
– Eugene Sh.
9 hours ago












$begingroup$
Non-conductive paint
$endgroup$
– Jack the Lad
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
Non-conductive paint
$endgroup$
– Jack the Lad
9 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
This is a qualified it depends. If you paint over a ground plane then no. If it's part on an enclosure and the the paint acts as an insulator between the lid and the base, both conductive then yes. This is not a detailed explanation of why but I will leave that for a proper answer.
$endgroup$
– Warren Hill
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
This is a qualified it depends. If you paint over a ground plane then no. If it's part on an enclosure and the the paint acts as an insulator between the lid and the base, both conductive then yes. This is not a detailed explanation of why but I will leave that for a proper answer.
$endgroup$
– Warren Hill
9 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















10












$begingroup$


Does painting (non-conductive) over the top of a grounded metal
enclosure affect its ability to absorb/block RF interference?




No, the idea of an EMI enclosure is to create a faraday shield around something to block electromagnetic waves around whatever it is enclosing. The shield itself needs to be conductive to be effective and have adequate skin depth, on the inside of the shield the electric field is zero (assuming there are no radiators on the inside). (The skin depth needs to be larger for a faraday shield to be effective, but for most metals anything more than 5mm is effective against anything above 0.1Hz). And watch out for anodization also, which is an oxide layer on aluminum and not very conductive.



For a faraday cage to be effective, it needs to be conductive and continuous as possible (slots and apertures can provide inlets for electric fields to bleed in). This also means that conductivity needs to be maintained at the seams of the enclosure by not painting junctions, using conductive gaskets and flanges that cover seams. (and any shieldconductor interfacing to the enclosure also needs good conductivity and no paint)



As long as the surface of the enclosure is conductive and continuous, it will have the same blocking power even with materials of different conductivity on the outside. If anything the paint will attenuate high frequencies or change the reflection (because any two materials that have a boundary have reflection and transmission coefficients).



In short, adding paint to the surface of a metal enclosure will not change the conductivity of the metal underneath (unless there is some kind of severe chemical reaction, which is unlikely). And at the end of the day it is the conductivity of the metal enclosure that matters most.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    It's probably worth explicitly adding that you need to be sure there is NOT paint in the seams between parts of the enclosure.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I didn't because the OP mentioned it, but a good idea nonetheless
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can't have paint between any wire/connector used to ground the cage and the cage, either.
    $endgroup$
    – Scott Seidman
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ScottSeidman also mention in the post above
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    4 hours ago



















4












$begingroup$

Well, although laptop2d answer is correct, if you interpret the word "ability" in a somewhat different sense, some kind of paints could actually improve the overall shielding provided by the underlying metal enclosure.



In fact the paint could reduce the incoming RF wave energy, dissipating it as heat. That's the principle behind what are called RAM (Radiation Absorbent Materials), which are used, for example, on stealth vehicles.



Such paints can also be non-conductive. For example, microscopic iron balls are coated in an insulating film and then deployed on the surface to coat embedded in an insulating epoxy matrix. So, overall, the coating is non-conductive.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 1




    $begingroup$
    They actually make a wide variety of conductive paints that can block RF in various frequencies (especially 2.4ghz) nowadays
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    yep, Hammond even makes ABS enclosures that are coated on the inside with that.
    $endgroup$
    – Tyler Stone
    6 hours ago











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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









10












$begingroup$


Does painting (non-conductive) over the top of a grounded metal
enclosure affect its ability to absorb/block RF interference?




No, the idea of an EMI enclosure is to create a faraday shield around something to block electromagnetic waves around whatever it is enclosing. The shield itself needs to be conductive to be effective and have adequate skin depth, on the inside of the shield the electric field is zero (assuming there are no radiators on the inside). (The skin depth needs to be larger for a faraday shield to be effective, but for most metals anything more than 5mm is effective against anything above 0.1Hz). And watch out for anodization also, which is an oxide layer on aluminum and not very conductive.



For a faraday cage to be effective, it needs to be conductive and continuous as possible (slots and apertures can provide inlets for electric fields to bleed in). This also means that conductivity needs to be maintained at the seams of the enclosure by not painting junctions, using conductive gaskets and flanges that cover seams. (and any shieldconductor interfacing to the enclosure also needs good conductivity and no paint)



As long as the surface of the enclosure is conductive and continuous, it will have the same blocking power even with materials of different conductivity on the outside. If anything the paint will attenuate high frequencies or change the reflection (because any two materials that have a boundary have reflection and transmission coefficients).



In short, adding paint to the surface of a metal enclosure will not change the conductivity of the metal underneath (unless there is some kind of severe chemical reaction, which is unlikely). And at the end of the day it is the conductivity of the metal enclosure that matters most.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    It's probably worth explicitly adding that you need to be sure there is NOT paint in the seams between parts of the enclosure.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I didn't because the OP mentioned it, but a good idea nonetheless
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can't have paint between any wire/connector used to ground the cage and the cage, either.
    $endgroup$
    – Scott Seidman
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ScottSeidman also mention in the post above
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    4 hours ago
















10












$begingroup$


Does painting (non-conductive) over the top of a grounded metal
enclosure affect its ability to absorb/block RF interference?




No, the idea of an EMI enclosure is to create a faraday shield around something to block electromagnetic waves around whatever it is enclosing. The shield itself needs to be conductive to be effective and have adequate skin depth, on the inside of the shield the electric field is zero (assuming there are no radiators on the inside). (The skin depth needs to be larger for a faraday shield to be effective, but for most metals anything more than 5mm is effective against anything above 0.1Hz). And watch out for anodization also, which is an oxide layer on aluminum and not very conductive.



For a faraday cage to be effective, it needs to be conductive and continuous as possible (slots and apertures can provide inlets for electric fields to bleed in). This also means that conductivity needs to be maintained at the seams of the enclosure by not painting junctions, using conductive gaskets and flanges that cover seams. (and any shieldconductor interfacing to the enclosure also needs good conductivity and no paint)



As long as the surface of the enclosure is conductive and continuous, it will have the same blocking power even with materials of different conductivity on the outside. If anything the paint will attenuate high frequencies or change the reflection (because any two materials that have a boundary have reflection and transmission coefficients).



In short, adding paint to the surface of a metal enclosure will not change the conductivity of the metal underneath (unless there is some kind of severe chemical reaction, which is unlikely). And at the end of the day it is the conductivity of the metal enclosure that matters most.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    It's probably worth explicitly adding that you need to be sure there is NOT paint in the seams between parts of the enclosure.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I didn't because the OP mentioned it, but a good idea nonetheless
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can't have paint between any wire/connector used to ground the cage and the cage, either.
    $endgroup$
    – Scott Seidman
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ScottSeidman also mention in the post above
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    4 hours ago














10












10








10





$begingroup$


Does painting (non-conductive) over the top of a grounded metal
enclosure affect its ability to absorb/block RF interference?




No, the idea of an EMI enclosure is to create a faraday shield around something to block electromagnetic waves around whatever it is enclosing. The shield itself needs to be conductive to be effective and have adequate skin depth, on the inside of the shield the electric field is zero (assuming there are no radiators on the inside). (The skin depth needs to be larger for a faraday shield to be effective, but for most metals anything more than 5mm is effective against anything above 0.1Hz). And watch out for anodization also, which is an oxide layer on aluminum and not very conductive.



For a faraday cage to be effective, it needs to be conductive and continuous as possible (slots and apertures can provide inlets for electric fields to bleed in). This also means that conductivity needs to be maintained at the seams of the enclosure by not painting junctions, using conductive gaskets and flanges that cover seams. (and any shieldconductor interfacing to the enclosure also needs good conductivity and no paint)



As long as the surface of the enclosure is conductive and continuous, it will have the same blocking power even with materials of different conductivity on the outside. If anything the paint will attenuate high frequencies or change the reflection (because any two materials that have a boundary have reflection and transmission coefficients).



In short, adding paint to the surface of a metal enclosure will not change the conductivity of the metal underneath (unless there is some kind of severe chemical reaction, which is unlikely). And at the end of the day it is the conductivity of the metal enclosure that matters most.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$




Does painting (non-conductive) over the top of a grounded metal
enclosure affect its ability to absorb/block RF interference?




No, the idea of an EMI enclosure is to create a faraday shield around something to block electromagnetic waves around whatever it is enclosing. The shield itself needs to be conductive to be effective and have adequate skin depth, on the inside of the shield the electric field is zero (assuming there are no radiators on the inside). (The skin depth needs to be larger for a faraday shield to be effective, but for most metals anything more than 5mm is effective against anything above 0.1Hz). And watch out for anodization also, which is an oxide layer on aluminum and not very conductive.



For a faraday cage to be effective, it needs to be conductive and continuous as possible (slots and apertures can provide inlets for electric fields to bleed in). This also means that conductivity needs to be maintained at the seams of the enclosure by not painting junctions, using conductive gaskets and flanges that cover seams. (and any shieldconductor interfacing to the enclosure also needs good conductivity and no paint)



As long as the surface of the enclosure is conductive and continuous, it will have the same blocking power even with materials of different conductivity on the outside. If anything the paint will attenuate high frequencies or change the reflection (because any two materials that have a boundary have reflection and transmission coefficients).



In short, adding paint to the surface of a metal enclosure will not change the conductivity of the metal underneath (unless there is some kind of severe chemical reaction, which is unlikely). And at the end of the day it is the conductivity of the metal enclosure that matters most.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 2 hours ago

























answered 8 hours ago









laptop2dlaptop2d

25.7k123380




25.7k123380








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    It's probably worth explicitly adding that you need to be sure there is NOT paint in the seams between parts of the enclosure.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I didn't because the OP mentioned it, but a good idea nonetheless
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can't have paint between any wire/connector used to ground the cage and the cage, either.
    $endgroup$
    – Scott Seidman
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ScottSeidman also mention in the post above
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    4 hours ago














  • 3




    $begingroup$
    It's probably worth explicitly adding that you need to be sure there is NOT paint in the seams between parts of the enclosure.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I didn't because the OP mentioned it, but a good idea nonetheless
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Can't have paint between any wire/connector used to ground the cage and the cage, either.
    $endgroup$
    – Scott Seidman
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ScottSeidman also mention in the post above
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    4 hours ago








3




3




$begingroup$
It's probably worth explicitly adding that you need to be sure there is NOT paint in the seams between parts of the enclosure.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
It's probably worth explicitly adding that you need to be sure there is NOT paint in the seams between parts of the enclosure.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
6 hours ago












$begingroup$
I didn't because the OP mentioned it, but a good idea nonetheless
$endgroup$
– laptop2d
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
I didn't because the OP mentioned it, but a good idea nonetheless
$endgroup$
– laptop2d
6 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Can't have paint between any wire/connector used to ground the cage and the cage, either.
$endgroup$
– Scott Seidman
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
Can't have paint between any wire/connector used to ground the cage and the cage, either.
$endgroup$
– Scott Seidman
5 hours ago












$begingroup$
@ScottSeidman also mention in the post above
$endgroup$
– laptop2d
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
@ScottSeidman also mention in the post above
$endgroup$
– laptop2d
4 hours ago













4












$begingroup$

Well, although laptop2d answer is correct, if you interpret the word "ability" in a somewhat different sense, some kind of paints could actually improve the overall shielding provided by the underlying metal enclosure.



In fact the paint could reduce the incoming RF wave energy, dissipating it as heat. That's the principle behind what are called RAM (Radiation Absorbent Materials), which are used, for example, on stealth vehicles.



Such paints can also be non-conductive. For example, microscopic iron balls are coated in an insulating film and then deployed on the surface to coat embedded in an insulating epoxy matrix. So, overall, the coating is non-conductive.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 1




    $begingroup$
    They actually make a wide variety of conductive paints that can block RF in various frequencies (especially 2.4ghz) nowadays
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    yep, Hammond even makes ABS enclosures that are coated on the inside with that.
    $endgroup$
    – Tyler Stone
    6 hours ago
















4












$begingroup$

Well, although laptop2d answer is correct, if you interpret the word "ability" in a somewhat different sense, some kind of paints could actually improve the overall shielding provided by the underlying metal enclosure.



In fact the paint could reduce the incoming RF wave energy, dissipating it as heat. That's the principle behind what are called RAM (Radiation Absorbent Materials), which are used, for example, on stealth vehicles.



Such paints can also be non-conductive. For example, microscopic iron balls are coated in an insulating film and then deployed on the surface to coat embedded in an insulating epoxy matrix. So, overall, the coating is non-conductive.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 1




    $begingroup$
    They actually make a wide variety of conductive paints that can block RF in various frequencies (especially 2.4ghz) nowadays
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    yep, Hammond even makes ABS enclosures that are coated on the inside with that.
    $endgroup$
    – Tyler Stone
    6 hours ago














4












4








4





$begingroup$

Well, although laptop2d answer is correct, if you interpret the word "ability" in a somewhat different sense, some kind of paints could actually improve the overall shielding provided by the underlying metal enclosure.



In fact the paint could reduce the incoming RF wave energy, dissipating it as heat. That's the principle behind what are called RAM (Radiation Absorbent Materials), which are used, for example, on stealth vehicles.



Such paints can also be non-conductive. For example, microscopic iron balls are coated in an insulating film and then deployed on the surface to coat embedded in an insulating epoxy matrix. So, overall, the coating is non-conductive.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



Well, although laptop2d answer is correct, if you interpret the word "ability" in a somewhat different sense, some kind of paints could actually improve the overall shielding provided by the underlying metal enclosure.



In fact the paint could reduce the incoming RF wave energy, dissipating it as heat. That's the principle behind what are called RAM (Radiation Absorbent Materials), which are used, for example, on stealth vehicles.



Such paints can also be non-conductive. For example, microscopic iron balls are coated in an insulating film and then deployed on the surface to coat embedded in an insulating epoxy matrix. So, overall, the coating is non-conductive.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 8 hours ago









Lorenzo DonatiLorenzo Donati

16.9k44476




16.9k44476








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    They actually make a wide variety of conductive paints that can block RF in various frequencies (especially 2.4ghz) nowadays
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    yep, Hammond even makes ABS enclosures that are coated on the inside with that.
    $endgroup$
    – Tyler Stone
    6 hours ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    They actually make a wide variety of conductive paints that can block RF in various frequencies (especially 2.4ghz) nowadays
    $endgroup$
    – laptop2d
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    yep, Hammond even makes ABS enclosures that are coated on the inside with that.
    $endgroup$
    – Tyler Stone
    6 hours ago








1




1




$begingroup$
They actually make a wide variety of conductive paints that can block RF in various frequencies (especially 2.4ghz) nowadays
$endgroup$
– laptop2d
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
They actually make a wide variety of conductive paints that can block RF in various frequencies (especially 2.4ghz) nowadays
$endgroup$
– laptop2d
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
yep, Hammond even makes ABS enclosures that are coated on the inside with that.
$endgroup$
– Tyler Stone
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
yep, Hammond even makes ABS enclosures that are coated on the inside with that.
$endgroup$
– Tyler Stone
6 hours ago










Jack the Lad is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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Jack the Lad is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















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