What does the US have to gain by other countries not being authoritarian?
With the current situation in Venezuela, it seems like the US is once again weighing in against a leader that is textbook socialist or communist that is also a dictator. I understand the hardships that dictators in these situations often do and why, from a humanitarian point of view, we should want to hope for a free and capitalist Venezuela. However, I am wondering, from a USA first point of view, why we would want that. With socialism making countries less competitive on a world stage, wouldn’t that be good for our economy, due to the fact we are more competitive relative to them? Again this is not a point of view I take, but I would love to hear a USA-first philosophy that suggests we should intervene and spend money.
united-states foreign-policy venezuela
|
show 3 more comments
With the current situation in Venezuela, it seems like the US is once again weighing in against a leader that is textbook socialist or communist that is also a dictator. I understand the hardships that dictators in these situations often do and why, from a humanitarian point of view, we should want to hope for a free and capitalist Venezuela. However, I am wondering, from a USA first point of view, why we would want that. With socialism making countries less competitive on a world stage, wouldn’t that be good for our economy, due to the fact we are more competitive relative to them? Again this is not a point of view I take, but I would love to hear a USA-first philosophy that suggests we should intervene and spend money.
united-states foreign-policy venezuela
18
Putting aside purely altruistic motives, if a country is not competitive - if its people are impoverished, even starving - then you can't make money selling them things, which is not good for your economy.
– jamesqf
17 hours ago
2
@jamesqf But it's easy to buy things from them dirt cheap, including relocating your factories there to take advantage of lower wages. I do doubt, strongly, that the USA is aiming for a world where every country is as rich as them or more.
– Rekesoft
11 hours ago
2
@Rekesoft I doubt you could attribute a singular attitude to an entire country or its government. Regardless, what makes people rich is trade, more rich people means there is more trade, more trade is good for traders, more trade means more rich people. There's no good reason to keep people impoverished in other countries.
– iain
9 hours ago
2
@iain A richer country is more assertive than a poor one. A richer country has bigger budgets for defence, too. Notice how China-US relationship has grown tense as China was getting richer.
– Rekesoft
8 hours ago
3
@Rekesoft As the U.S. and others have found out, relocating factories to communist countries - especially unstable ones - has a lot of potential downsides, not the least of which is the factories being nationalized, as happened to foreign factories in Venezuela. And, of course, communist countries are also renowned for their industrial espionage, so sending your designs there for manufacturing is a good way to have your designs stolen and copied.
– reirab
7 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
With the current situation in Venezuela, it seems like the US is once again weighing in against a leader that is textbook socialist or communist that is also a dictator. I understand the hardships that dictators in these situations often do and why, from a humanitarian point of view, we should want to hope for a free and capitalist Venezuela. However, I am wondering, from a USA first point of view, why we would want that. With socialism making countries less competitive on a world stage, wouldn’t that be good for our economy, due to the fact we are more competitive relative to them? Again this is not a point of view I take, but I would love to hear a USA-first philosophy that suggests we should intervene and spend money.
united-states foreign-policy venezuela
With the current situation in Venezuela, it seems like the US is once again weighing in against a leader that is textbook socialist or communist that is also a dictator. I understand the hardships that dictators in these situations often do and why, from a humanitarian point of view, we should want to hope for a free and capitalist Venezuela. However, I am wondering, from a USA first point of view, why we would want that. With socialism making countries less competitive on a world stage, wouldn’t that be good for our economy, due to the fact we are more competitive relative to them? Again this is not a point of view I take, but I would love to hear a USA-first philosophy that suggests we should intervene and spend money.
united-states foreign-policy venezuela
united-states foreign-policy venezuela
edited 26 mins ago
JonathanReez
13.4k1576154
13.4k1576154
asked 18 hours ago
spmoosespmoose
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8541617
18
Putting aside purely altruistic motives, if a country is not competitive - if its people are impoverished, even starving - then you can't make money selling them things, which is not good for your economy.
– jamesqf
17 hours ago
2
@jamesqf But it's easy to buy things from them dirt cheap, including relocating your factories there to take advantage of lower wages. I do doubt, strongly, that the USA is aiming for a world where every country is as rich as them or more.
– Rekesoft
11 hours ago
2
@Rekesoft I doubt you could attribute a singular attitude to an entire country or its government. Regardless, what makes people rich is trade, more rich people means there is more trade, more trade is good for traders, more trade means more rich people. There's no good reason to keep people impoverished in other countries.
– iain
9 hours ago
2
@iain A richer country is more assertive than a poor one. A richer country has bigger budgets for defence, too. Notice how China-US relationship has grown tense as China was getting richer.
– Rekesoft
8 hours ago
3
@Rekesoft As the U.S. and others have found out, relocating factories to communist countries - especially unstable ones - has a lot of potential downsides, not the least of which is the factories being nationalized, as happened to foreign factories in Venezuela. And, of course, communist countries are also renowned for their industrial espionage, so sending your designs there for manufacturing is a good way to have your designs stolen and copied.
– reirab
7 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
18
Putting aside purely altruistic motives, if a country is not competitive - if its people are impoverished, even starving - then you can't make money selling them things, which is not good for your economy.
– jamesqf
17 hours ago
2
@jamesqf But it's easy to buy things from them dirt cheap, including relocating your factories there to take advantage of lower wages. I do doubt, strongly, that the USA is aiming for a world where every country is as rich as them or more.
– Rekesoft
11 hours ago
2
@Rekesoft I doubt you could attribute a singular attitude to an entire country or its government. Regardless, what makes people rich is trade, more rich people means there is more trade, more trade is good for traders, more trade means more rich people. There's no good reason to keep people impoverished in other countries.
– iain
9 hours ago
2
@iain A richer country is more assertive than a poor one. A richer country has bigger budgets for defence, too. Notice how China-US relationship has grown tense as China was getting richer.
– Rekesoft
8 hours ago
3
@Rekesoft As the U.S. and others have found out, relocating factories to communist countries - especially unstable ones - has a lot of potential downsides, not the least of which is the factories being nationalized, as happened to foreign factories in Venezuela. And, of course, communist countries are also renowned for their industrial espionage, so sending your designs there for manufacturing is a good way to have your designs stolen and copied.
– reirab
7 hours ago
18
18
Putting aside purely altruistic motives, if a country is not competitive - if its people are impoverished, even starving - then you can't make money selling them things, which is not good for your economy.
– jamesqf
17 hours ago
Putting aside purely altruistic motives, if a country is not competitive - if its people are impoverished, even starving - then you can't make money selling them things, which is not good for your economy.
– jamesqf
17 hours ago
2
2
@jamesqf But it's easy to buy things from them dirt cheap, including relocating your factories there to take advantage of lower wages. I do doubt, strongly, that the USA is aiming for a world where every country is as rich as them or more.
– Rekesoft
11 hours ago
@jamesqf But it's easy to buy things from them dirt cheap, including relocating your factories there to take advantage of lower wages. I do doubt, strongly, that the USA is aiming for a world where every country is as rich as them or more.
– Rekesoft
11 hours ago
2
2
@Rekesoft I doubt you could attribute a singular attitude to an entire country or its government. Regardless, what makes people rich is trade, more rich people means there is more trade, more trade is good for traders, more trade means more rich people. There's no good reason to keep people impoverished in other countries.
– iain
9 hours ago
@Rekesoft I doubt you could attribute a singular attitude to an entire country or its government. Regardless, what makes people rich is trade, more rich people means there is more trade, more trade is good for traders, more trade means more rich people. There's no good reason to keep people impoverished in other countries.
– iain
9 hours ago
2
2
@iain A richer country is more assertive than a poor one. A richer country has bigger budgets for defence, too. Notice how China-US relationship has grown tense as China was getting richer.
– Rekesoft
8 hours ago
@iain A richer country is more assertive than a poor one. A richer country has bigger budgets for defence, too. Notice how China-US relationship has grown tense as China was getting richer.
– Rekesoft
8 hours ago
3
3
@Rekesoft As the U.S. and others have found out, relocating factories to communist countries - especially unstable ones - has a lot of potential downsides, not the least of which is the factories being nationalized, as happened to foreign factories in Venezuela. And, of course, communist countries are also renowned for their industrial espionage, so sending your designs there for manufacturing is a good way to have your designs stolen and copied.
– reirab
7 hours ago
@Rekesoft As the U.S. and others have found out, relocating factories to communist countries - especially unstable ones - has a lot of potential downsides, not the least of which is the factories being nationalized, as happened to foreign factories in Venezuela. And, of course, communist countries are also renowned for their industrial espionage, so sending your designs there for manufacturing is a good way to have your designs stolen and copied.
– reirab
7 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
If we extrapolate from the historical record, it looks like the U.S. couldn't care less if there is a dictatorship or not in Venezuela or anywhere else.
What the U.S. seems to care about strongly is that a regime does not intrude on their trade interests. Communist regimes have a tendency to nationalize industries and push land reform, thereby ousting the current stakeholders, which might be U.S. companies. Therefore the U.S. likes to support right-wing regimes and military juntas aligned with the current business elites.
Most talk about capitalism vs. communism, human rights, democracy etc. is just a pretext to justify military intervention to install a regime that is friendly to U.S. interests.
I agree that the situation in Venezuela is a humanitarian catastrophe and I strongly oppose dictators and autocrats. But sadly, it looks like the U.S. is mainly interested in the Venezuelan oil reserves.
Here are two observations to support this argument:
There are many dictatorships currently allied with the U.S.: List of authoritarian regimes supported by the United States. The people under these regimes face many hardships and human rights abuses. Why does the U.S. not intervene?
There are many historical examples where the U.S. has overthrown democratically elected governments to further their economic interests (or of U.S. based corporations):
1949 Syrian coup d'état
1953 Iranian coup d'état
1954 Guatemalan coup d'état
1961 Democratic Republic of the Congo
1964 Brazilian coup d'état
1965 Dominican Republic
1973 Chilean coup d'état
1985 Nicaragua
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17
"Any talk about capitalism vs. communism, human rights, democracy etc. is just a pretext to justify military intervention to install a regime that is friendly to U.S. interests." Any is a very difficult word to prove. You have to look at what Trump thinks, what Rubio thinks, what Ocasio-Cortez thinks, what the journalists think....
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
3
"Much" talk" or "Trump's talk," definitely.
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
4
You are right, absolutes are hard to prove. I changed that sentence to read "Most talk ..."
– Georg Patscheider
10 hours ago
4
This answer, while totally and unfortunately accurate, highlights a flaw in the question: this answers the question from the perspective of US elites, but I would bet my next paycheck the average American doesn't think about the question in those terms even if they'd agree with you when it's put like this.
– Jared Smith
7 hours ago
1
This answer seems much heavier on the 'assertion' side of things that I would expect here, with regards to the US' reasoning.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
Think back 50, 60, 70 years.
There used to be something called the Cold War.
Belief in their own system.
Various free market economies are convinced that some from of Capitalism is right for people worldwide. Communists are convinced that Communism is right for people worldwide. Each wants to convince the rest of the world, and to save the people languishing under the other system.
Shaping the global order.
Even if it is not about saving other people (who may or may not want to be saved) the number of communist nations worldwide will shape how global trade flows function. This includes things like tariffs, patent law, investment protection, ...
Fear of the Domino Theory.
If states are successful with the other system, their own population might decide to change the domestic system. That mostly happened with people throwing off Communism in recent decades, but there was a time when Communist revolutions were quite common.
2
This answer doesn't really point out what the US has to gain, as the question asks. Your first point is entirely altruistic, so there's no gain for the US. The third point is a bit circular, as preventing the spread of Communism helps prevent further spread of Communism, but isn't a reason why we should do that in the first place. Only the second point brings any immediate benefit to the US, but it needs to be expanded upon - how is Communism directly related to patent law or tariffs?
– Nuclear Wang
8 hours ago
2
I believe o.m. is pointing out that the U.S. had a lot to lose by countries aligning with the Soviet bloc back in the day. Keeping countries out of the hands of communists hands, even at the cost of supporting right-wing despots, was how the Cold War was fought (at least, that was the perception at the time, and the attitude lingers).
– Jon of All Trades
8 hours ago
1
While spreading their respective ideologies was certainly nice for world domination, I think a bigger motivator during the Cold War was simply controlling who could build missile and air bases where in the event of a hot war.
– AmiralPatate
7 hours ago
@NuclearWang, the conviction/delusion that one is acting in an altruistic way does great things for one's self esteem.
– o.m.
6 hours ago
"there was a time when Communist revolutions were quite common" - True, but even that gets complicated. The heyday of the Peoples' Revolutions occurred when, as a result of the Cold War, Russia and China supported them in the crumbling empires of the European states which, post-WWII, were pitted against Russia and China. Part of the support came from ideological sympathy, but part was a desire to damage the "Democracies". The flip side was US support for bad actors. The US became entangled in Vietnam in part because it felt it could not directly oppose France's attempts to maintain its colonie
– WhatRoughBeast
6 hours ago
add a comment |
Being a Socialist state is not a crime by itself. There are plenty of countries in today's world that can be called more or less socialist: consider Nordic model, informally known as Swedish Socialism.
Dictatorships, on the other hand, tend to build Socialist or Communist economies because the Socialism assumes a bigger fraction of the nation's means of production and gross domestic product controlled and redistributed by the ruling regime. See, for example, Lenin: „The Dictatorship Of The Proletariat“ (1919).
Simply speaking, it is easier to rule over the poor than the rich; it easier to be a dictator if your economic system is a Communism.
The biggest concern is that dictatorships — Communist dictatorships — also commit other crimes against human rights and international law, which is seen intolerable by the US:
- the violation of own people's human rights;
- the sharp raise of the violent crime (induces the flow of refugees);
- the state's active role in production and transit of illegal drugs;
- acts of international terrorism;
armed invasions to neighboring countries.
Note, all these problems are not local at all. They splash outside or even are targeted against other states. That's why these regimes pose a threat.
Why is communism considered as evil (like fascism and nazism) in the United States?
Now, straight to the question:
I am wondering, from a USA first point of view, why we would want that.
The US wants to eliminate direct threats to its national security. For example,
Venezuela Defense of Human Rights and Civil Society Act of 2014 (H.R. 4587) says in its preamble (highlight mine):
To impose targeted sanctions on persons responsible for violations of human rights of antigovernment protesters in Venezuela, to strengthen civil society in Venezuela, and for other purposes.
Subsequently, the US President signed and issued a presidential order declaring Venezuela a threat to its national security. — Reuters.
Soon after that, the dictator has denounced the sanctions as the US' attempt to oppress his bright and shiny socialist economy:
“President Barack Obama ... has personally decided to take on the task of defeating my government and intervening in Venezuela to control it,” Maduro said in a televised address.
Someone who hears this speech may be confused into thinking that the US pursues Venezuela because it is Communist.
Summary
Throughout the entire human history, the Communism has been used as a disguise for brutal dictatorships.
There are reasons why the dictatorships prefer being Communist states.
The US' goal is not to overthrow other countries' economic system of manual redistribution of its wealth; instead, the goal is to eliminate threats to the American national security and stop the violation of human rights.
16
You say dictatorships "prefer" to be Communist states. Setting aside that many socialist dictatorships neither identify as Communist nor meet the theoretical definition, have you actually compared the numbers for Communist vs. non-Communist dictatorships? Keep in mind, autocracy in the form of royalty was doing perfectly fine for millenia before Communism was conceived.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
9
If we trust the Polity ranking of autocracy, the countries with a 0 value for democracy (and mostly higher than 5 for autocracy) are Bahrain, North Korea, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland, Syria, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Oman, Azerbaijan, Belarus, China, Cuba, Equatorial Guina, UAE, Eritrea, Iran, Laos, Vietnam, Kazakhstan, Venezuela, Kuwait, Cambodia, Russia, and Tajikstan. I don't have time to assess the system of government of all of those yet, but I think six are Middle Eastern monarchies, plus Iran (religious dictatorship), Russia (Putin in charge, oligarchic).
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
7
Um, Swaziland is also an absolute monarchy (theoretically diarchy), Syria was a dictatorship (there's heavy state control over the economy now, but that mainly started with the war). Eritrea doesn't seem to be socialst anymore, mostly.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
6
"which is seen intolerable by the US" It's not the same generation but let's remember that during the Cold War, the US have sponsored dictators and coup, sometime even against democratically elected governement (e.g. Pinochet against Allende in Chile in 1973). So I think there is more than just "humanitarian feelings" at play.
– Luris
13 hours ago
5
@stegetsj - Eritrea isn't Ethiopia, nor is Cambodia Kampuchea, and "resulting from" communist states is a very broad characterization. The US "resulted from" monarchy in that same sense. It doesn't make sense to put any country that historically espoused Communist ideas down as currently Communist. Eritrea and particuarly Russia cannot currently be characterized as Communist.
– Obie 2.0
12 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
I think the most useful framework to use to view US foreign policy is the one set out in Walter Russel Mead's Special Providence.
The thesis is that there are essentially 4 schools of foreign policy, continually jockeying for getting their own way. Their primary goals are roughly: promoting US business, promoting US values, protecting the US from foreign threats, and "Never start a fight, but always finish it." He respectively labeled these 4 schools "Hamiltonians", "Wilsonians", "Jeffersonians", and "Jacksonians". Basically, if you as a foreign country never manage to tick off more than one of these groups, you will generally do OK.
Hamiltonians are always going to have problems with any country that Nationalizes large amount of private assets. Particularly if the private companies in question were US companies, or had lucrative contracts with US companies. So while they don't neesecarily care if a country decides to have universal healthcare, they care a great deal if it decides to nationalize its entire Oil industry. Venezuela did this in 1976, but it was Chavez in 1999 who kicked all the foreign oil projects out of the country. This earned him (and his protégé's ) the enmity of the Hamiltonians.
Wilsonians want other countries to be democratic, and their people to be free. Any country whose rulers clearly cheat an election will be on their shitlist. They didn't have a big problem with Chavez kicking US Oil companies out when he did it back in 1999, because he was a popular elected leader of a young Democracy, and in their books the region needs more of those.
However, recently things have changed. Venezuela abolished its Presidential term limits in 2009. In 2015 the ruling party lot its parliamentary election, and essentially created its own separate parliament rather than abide by it. A recall movement started, which the President's government cancelled by fiat. The next election in 2017 had more shenanigains than I can list, resulting in polling showing about 73% of Venezuelans thinking the new assembly is not valid, and 78% considering their country to now be a dictatorship.
Wilsonians do not like election shenanigans, and certainly don't like dictatorships. That's two strikes.
Jeffersonains are generally OK with countries as long as they don't threaten the US. Unfortunately, Venezuelan leaders have made a habit of casting the US as their enemy, as a tactic to distract from domestic troubles. While not a huge threat, they have also been busy the last few decades publicly making common cause with other countries that are generally perceived to be US enemies, like Cuba and Russia. This is clearly unfriendly behavior, and does not have them in good smell with Jeffersonians. Strike three.
Jacksonians aren't going to be approving of any messing with Venezuela until the day we are actually fighting. For Maduro, that's a good thing. The US Army and Marines are heavily peopled by folks with this outlook (as are a lot of lower-income relatively apolitical Americans, from which those services draw) This is the one group you do not want to tick off above all others.
So the basic problem the current Venezuela regime has is that they've actively ticked off 3 of the 4 poles of US foreign policy. Anyone in this situation can expect a lot of non-military intervention (and military isn't out of the question either).
1
I think the point about Jeffersonians hides a much more relevant point - allies. Even after the Clod War (misspelling intentional), war by proxy is very much alive and well. The US very much wants to deprive Russia and China of allies. That alone is enough to get the US motivated to intervene.
– cpcodes
5 hours ago
@cpcodes - The people who are Jeffersonians, yes. However, they don't have total power. Meade's thesis is that if you just fall afoul of that one group of thinkers, it generally isn't enough to get the entire US foreign policy apparatus against you. Particularly if some of the other 3 poles like you (eg: If there are US business interests that would be threatened by rocking the boat, and/or its a new democracy). Its when you run afowl of multiple schools, and none of them are pulling for you, that you are most likely to get into trouble.
– T.E.D.
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Let's look at some history.
According to Wikipedia, during the Cold War, the USSR had tens of thousands of nuclear weapons. The primary target was of course the United States. Furthermore, there were incidents where, had things gone a bit differently, the weapons might have been used. In particular, there was the Cuban Missile Crisis and the lesser-known but possibly-more-dangerous 1983 Soviet nuclear false alarm.
More recently, Kim Jong un repeatedly threatened a nuclear attack on the United States.
Additionally, socialist countries have a habit of producing major refugee crises. The current Venezuela crisis is only the latest example. See also the Mariel Boatlift and the Zimbabwe refugees.
In short, socialist countries tend to cause a lot of problems not only for their own people, but also for everyone else.
Lastly, I would argue that the most important question for humans is whether or not we will succeed in expanding beyond the Earth. Obviously nuclear wars and refugee crises won't help with that.
2
All three points you bring have also been caused by capitalist countries. That kinda nullifies your argument... The statement "In short, capitalist countries tend to cause a lot of problems not only for their own people, but also for everyone else." is equally valid.
– JS Lavertu
7 hours ago
2
@JSLavertu - Which capitalist countries have caused a lot of problems that have not been more than offset by the good they created? Which capitalist countries have had their people fleeing capitalism in refugee crisis? William's points are not nullified in the slightest; you are just being pedantic. I would suggest this answer add the words 'in net' after the word 'countries' and before the word 'tend'. Then that nullifies your comment entirely.
– Dunk
5 hours ago
@Dunk Moving the goalposts doesn't make for a valid rebuttal of my criticism. My comment stands.
– JS Lavertu
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I think US interest in Venezuela has less to do with it being socialist, or for altruistic reasons, or "freedom" (#rollseyes). It has more to do with regional security.
The country has experienced a sudden exodus of over 1 million people, already having a destabilizing effect in Colombia, Brazil and Ecuador.
Sooner or later refugees will come to our borders (and you know how "welcoming" we are of refugees, that was sarcasm btw.)
At least that's how I see our government looking at the Venezuelan crisis. As for other socialists or communist countries (there are no communist countries left, btw), I don't think we quite give a hoot about them as long as they don't pose a destabilization risk.
And any type of intervention in the past must be seen in the context of the Cold War (and an amoral affinity for cold-blooded dictators wherever it suited our foreign policy, something we have thankfully grown out of... somewhat.)
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The direct answer would be:
Trade. If countries follow communist or socialist ideas, trading with them will be less free. Also it will disable American companies in investing in those countries.
Which leads me to the main essence of this issue:
The USA are in fact a Plutocracy. Which means it's government is exclusively made out of the rich people / the top 5% of the population. So it will act within the interests of rich people and companies. Socialist regimes tend to nationalyze companies and factories, etc... This contradicts the interest of the American (plutocratic) government, as even if the politicians themself aren't affected by the socialist acts, their friends and/or sponsors may be. This is also the difference between Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. While both countries are humanitarian catastrophies, one is an ally and the other is considered bad. Venezuela also has the largest oil reserves (their known ressources have more than tripled over the last 8 years), making them important for most powerful industries. Right now, those oil reserves are in the hand of the venezuelan goverment, so they dictate what is happening with the oil. And that's the problem with the dictator being socialist.

List of known oil reserves
This is a US election that defies logic and brings the nation closer towards a one-party state masquerading as a two-party state.
To the election of 2012
Additional information to politics and economy, the "political compass"
3
You will likely need to back up some of your assertions about American plutocracy if this answer is to succeed. Also, Venezuela has the most oil? I’d like to see a source on that—obviously both Venezuela and Saudi Arabia are oil-rich countries, but I thought Saudi Arabia was more so.
– KRyan
9 hours ago
Yes, you're right, but i have not so much time right now, I will add the sources ASAIC
– miep
9 hours ago
3
The US isn't a plutocracy, not even close. Haiti, under Papa Doc, the Philippines under Marcos were both plutocracies. There are many people in the US who's annual earnings are at the 50% level who own a nice house and drive a nice car and have a good life. Plutocracy involves taking. (And the more we grow the government the more we will grow plutocracy so the trend is not good.)
– Mayo
8 hours ago
1
Well, technically the US fullfills all criteria for a plutocracy. "Rule of/Power to the money". In the US, all the power is held by the rich. So for what reason it is not? I'm interested.
– miep
8 hours ago
1
@miep - Exactly who are these 'rich' people with all the power? Is it the 1%'ers? Does that mean that 90% of americans hold power over the rest of the world since over 90% of americans are in the 1%er's for the world? What draconian rules are these evil people with all the money and power that are running the USA imposing on the masses?
– Dunk
5 hours ago
add a comment |
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7 Answers
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7 Answers
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If we extrapolate from the historical record, it looks like the U.S. couldn't care less if there is a dictatorship or not in Venezuela or anywhere else.
What the U.S. seems to care about strongly is that a regime does not intrude on their trade interests. Communist regimes have a tendency to nationalize industries and push land reform, thereby ousting the current stakeholders, which might be U.S. companies. Therefore the U.S. likes to support right-wing regimes and military juntas aligned with the current business elites.
Most talk about capitalism vs. communism, human rights, democracy etc. is just a pretext to justify military intervention to install a regime that is friendly to U.S. interests.
I agree that the situation in Venezuela is a humanitarian catastrophe and I strongly oppose dictators and autocrats. But sadly, it looks like the U.S. is mainly interested in the Venezuelan oil reserves.
Here are two observations to support this argument:
There are many dictatorships currently allied with the U.S.: List of authoritarian regimes supported by the United States. The people under these regimes face many hardships and human rights abuses. Why does the U.S. not intervene?
There are many historical examples where the U.S. has overthrown democratically elected governments to further their economic interests (or of U.S. based corporations):
1949 Syrian coup d'état
1953 Iranian coup d'état
1954 Guatemalan coup d'état
1961 Democratic Republic of the Congo
1964 Brazilian coup d'état
1965 Dominican Republic
1973 Chilean coup d'état
1985 Nicaragua
New contributor
Georg Patscheider is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
17
"Any talk about capitalism vs. communism, human rights, democracy etc. is just a pretext to justify military intervention to install a regime that is friendly to U.S. interests." Any is a very difficult word to prove. You have to look at what Trump thinks, what Rubio thinks, what Ocasio-Cortez thinks, what the journalists think....
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
3
"Much" talk" or "Trump's talk," definitely.
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
4
You are right, absolutes are hard to prove. I changed that sentence to read "Most talk ..."
– Georg Patscheider
10 hours ago
4
This answer, while totally and unfortunately accurate, highlights a flaw in the question: this answers the question from the perspective of US elites, but I would bet my next paycheck the average American doesn't think about the question in those terms even if they'd agree with you when it's put like this.
– Jared Smith
7 hours ago
1
This answer seems much heavier on the 'assertion' side of things that I would expect here, with regards to the US' reasoning.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
If we extrapolate from the historical record, it looks like the U.S. couldn't care less if there is a dictatorship or not in Venezuela or anywhere else.
What the U.S. seems to care about strongly is that a regime does not intrude on their trade interests. Communist regimes have a tendency to nationalize industries and push land reform, thereby ousting the current stakeholders, which might be U.S. companies. Therefore the U.S. likes to support right-wing regimes and military juntas aligned with the current business elites.
Most talk about capitalism vs. communism, human rights, democracy etc. is just a pretext to justify military intervention to install a regime that is friendly to U.S. interests.
I agree that the situation in Venezuela is a humanitarian catastrophe and I strongly oppose dictators and autocrats. But sadly, it looks like the U.S. is mainly interested in the Venezuelan oil reserves.
Here are two observations to support this argument:
There are many dictatorships currently allied with the U.S.: List of authoritarian regimes supported by the United States. The people under these regimes face many hardships and human rights abuses. Why does the U.S. not intervene?
There are many historical examples where the U.S. has overthrown democratically elected governments to further their economic interests (or of U.S. based corporations):
1949 Syrian coup d'état
1953 Iranian coup d'état
1954 Guatemalan coup d'état
1961 Democratic Republic of the Congo
1964 Brazilian coup d'état
1965 Dominican Republic
1973 Chilean coup d'état
1985 Nicaragua
New contributor
Georg Patscheider is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
17
"Any talk about capitalism vs. communism, human rights, democracy etc. is just a pretext to justify military intervention to install a regime that is friendly to U.S. interests." Any is a very difficult word to prove. You have to look at what Trump thinks, what Rubio thinks, what Ocasio-Cortez thinks, what the journalists think....
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
3
"Much" talk" or "Trump's talk," definitely.
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
4
You are right, absolutes are hard to prove. I changed that sentence to read "Most talk ..."
– Georg Patscheider
10 hours ago
4
This answer, while totally and unfortunately accurate, highlights a flaw in the question: this answers the question from the perspective of US elites, but I would bet my next paycheck the average American doesn't think about the question in those terms even if they'd agree with you when it's put like this.
– Jared Smith
7 hours ago
1
This answer seems much heavier on the 'assertion' side of things that I would expect here, with regards to the US' reasoning.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
If we extrapolate from the historical record, it looks like the U.S. couldn't care less if there is a dictatorship or not in Venezuela or anywhere else.
What the U.S. seems to care about strongly is that a regime does not intrude on their trade interests. Communist regimes have a tendency to nationalize industries and push land reform, thereby ousting the current stakeholders, which might be U.S. companies. Therefore the U.S. likes to support right-wing regimes and military juntas aligned with the current business elites.
Most talk about capitalism vs. communism, human rights, democracy etc. is just a pretext to justify military intervention to install a regime that is friendly to U.S. interests.
I agree that the situation in Venezuela is a humanitarian catastrophe and I strongly oppose dictators and autocrats. But sadly, it looks like the U.S. is mainly interested in the Venezuelan oil reserves.
Here are two observations to support this argument:
There are many dictatorships currently allied with the U.S.: List of authoritarian regimes supported by the United States. The people under these regimes face many hardships and human rights abuses. Why does the U.S. not intervene?
There are many historical examples where the U.S. has overthrown democratically elected governments to further their economic interests (or of U.S. based corporations):
1949 Syrian coup d'état
1953 Iranian coup d'état
1954 Guatemalan coup d'état
1961 Democratic Republic of the Congo
1964 Brazilian coup d'état
1965 Dominican Republic
1973 Chilean coup d'état
1985 Nicaragua
New contributor
Georg Patscheider is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
If we extrapolate from the historical record, it looks like the U.S. couldn't care less if there is a dictatorship or not in Venezuela or anywhere else.
What the U.S. seems to care about strongly is that a regime does not intrude on their trade interests. Communist regimes have a tendency to nationalize industries and push land reform, thereby ousting the current stakeholders, which might be U.S. companies. Therefore the U.S. likes to support right-wing regimes and military juntas aligned with the current business elites.
Most talk about capitalism vs. communism, human rights, democracy etc. is just a pretext to justify military intervention to install a regime that is friendly to U.S. interests.
I agree that the situation in Venezuela is a humanitarian catastrophe and I strongly oppose dictators and autocrats. But sadly, it looks like the U.S. is mainly interested in the Venezuelan oil reserves.
Here are two observations to support this argument:
There are many dictatorships currently allied with the U.S.: List of authoritarian regimes supported by the United States. The people under these regimes face many hardships and human rights abuses. Why does the U.S. not intervene?
There are many historical examples where the U.S. has overthrown democratically elected governments to further their economic interests (or of U.S. based corporations):
1949 Syrian coup d'état
1953 Iranian coup d'état
1954 Guatemalan coup d'état
1961 Democratic Republic of the Congo
1964 Brazilian coup d'état
1965 Dominican Republic
1973 Chilean coup d'état
1985 Nicaragua
New contributor
Georg Patscheider is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 9 hours ago
New contributor
Georg Patscheider is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 11 hours ago
Georg PatscheiderGeorg Patscheider
31626
31626
New contributor
Georg Patscheider is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Georg Patscheider is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Georg Patscheider is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
17
"Any talk about capitalism vs. communism, human rights, democracy etc. is just a pretext to justify military intervention to install a regime that is friendly to U.S. interests." Any is a very difficult word to prove. You have to look at what Trump thinks, what Rubio thinks, what Ocasio-Cortez thinks, what the journalists think....
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
3
"Much" talk" or "Trump's talk," definitely.
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
4
You are right, absolutes are hard to prove. I changed that sentence to read "Most talk ..."
– Georg Patscheider
10 hours ago
4
This answer, while totally and unfortunately accurate, highlights a flaw in the question: this answers the question from the perspective of US elites, but I would bet my next paycheck the average American doesn't think about the question in those terms even if they'd agree with you when it's put like this.
– Jared Smith
7 hours ago
1
This answer seems much heavier on the 'assertion' side of things that I would expect here, with regards to the US' reasoning.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
17
"Any talk about capitalism vs. communism, human rights, democracy etc. is just a pretext to justify military intervention to install a regime that is friendly to U.S. interests." Any is a very difficult word to prove. You have to look at what Trump thinks, what Rubio thinks, what Ocasio-Cortez thinks, what the journalists think....
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
3
"Much" talk" or "Trump's talk," definitely.
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
4
You are right, absolutes are hard to prove. I changed that sentence to read "Most talk ..."
– Georg Patscheider
10 hours ago
4
This answer, while totally and unfortunately accurate, highlights a flaw in the question: this answers the question from the perspective of US elites, but I would bet my next paycheck the average American doesn't think about the question in those terms even if they'd agree with you when it's put like this.
– Jared Smith
7 hours ago
1
This answer seems much heavier on the 'assertion' side of things that I would expect here, with regards to the US' reasoning.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
17
17
"Any talk about capitalism vs. communism, human rights, democracy etc. is just a pretext to justify military intervention to install a regime that is friendly to U.S. interests." Any is a very difficult word to prove. You have to look at what Trump thinks, what Rubio thinks, what Ocasio-Cortez thinks, what the journalists think....
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
"Any talk about capitalism vs. communism, human rights, democracy etc. is just a pretext to justify military intervention to install a regime that is friendly to U.S. interests." Any is a very difficult word to prove. You have to look at what Trump thinks, what Rubio thinks, what Ocasio-Cortez thinks, what the journalists think....
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
3
3
"Much" talk" or "Trump's talk," definitely.
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
"Much" talk" or "Trump's talk," definitely.
– Obie 2.0
11 hours ago
4
4
You are right, absolutes are hard to prove. I changed that sentence to read "Most talk ..."
– Georg Patscheider
10 hours ago
You are right, absolutes are hard to prove. I changed that sentence to read "Most talk ..."
– Georg Patscheider
10 hours ago
4
4
This answer, while totally and unfortunately accurate, highlights a flaw in the question: this answers the question from the perspective of US elites, but I would bet my next paycheck the average American doesn't think about the question in those terms even if they'd agree with you when it's put like this.
– Jared Smith
7 hours ago
This answer, while totally and unfortunately accurate, highlights a flaw in the question: this answers the question from the perspective of US elites, but I would bet my next paycheck the average American doesn't think about the question in those terms even if they'd agree with you when it's put like this.
– Jared Smith
7 hours ago
1
1
This answer seems much heavier on the 'assertion' side of things that I would expect here, with regards to the US' reasoning.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
This answer seems much heavier on the 'assertion' side of things that I would expect here, with regards to the US' reasoning.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
Think back 50, 60, 70 years.
There used to be something called the Cold War.
Belief in their own system.
Various free market economies are convinced that some from of Capitalism is right for people worldwide. Communists are convinced that Communism is right for people worldwide. Each wants to convince the rest of the world, and to save the people languishing under the other system.
Shaping the global order.
Even if it is not about saving other people (who may or may not want to be saved) the number of communist nations worldwide will shape how global trade flows function. This includes things like tariffs, patent law, investment protection, ...
Fear of the Domino Theory.
If states are successful with the other system, their own population might decide to change the domestic system. That mostly happened with people throwing off Communism in recent decades, but there was a time when Communist revolutions were quite common.
2
This answer doesn't really point out what the US has to gain, as the question asks. Your first point is entirely altruistic, so there's no gain for the US. The third point is a bit circular, as preventing the spread of Communism helps prevent further spread of Communism, but isn't a reason why we should do that in the first place. Only the second point brings any immediate benefit to the US, but it needs to be expanded upon - how is Communism directly related to patent law or tariffs?
– Nuclear Wang
8 hours ago
2
I believe o.m. is pointing out that the U.S. had a lot to lose by countries aligning with the Soviet bloc back in the day. Keeping countries out of the hands of communists hands, even at the cost of supporting right-wing despots, was how the Cold War was fought (at least, that was the perception at the time, and the attitude lingers).
– Jon of All Trades
8 hours ago
1
While spreading their respective ideologies was certainly nice for world domination, I think a bigger motivator during the Cold War was simply controlling who could build missile and air bases where in the event of a hot war.
– AmiralPatate
7 hours ago
@NuclearWang, the conviction/delusion that one is acting in an altruistic way does great things for one's self esteem.
– o.m.
6 hours ago
"there was a time when Communist revolutions were quite common" - True, but even that gets complicated. The heyday of the Peoples' Revolutions occurred when, as a result of the Cold War, Russia and China supported them in the crumbling empires of the European states which, post-WWII, were pitted against Russia and China. Part of the support came from ideological sympathy, but part was a desire to damage the "Democracies". The flip side was US support for bad actors. The US became entangled in Vietnam in part because it felt it could not directly oppose France's attempts to maintain its colonie
– WhatRoughBeast
6 hours ago
add a comment |
Think back 50, 60, 70 years.
There used to be something called the Cold War.
Belief in their own system.
Various free market economies are convinced that some from of Capitalism is right for people worldwide. Communists are convinced that Communism is right for people worldwide. Each wants to convince the rest of the world, and to save the people languishing under the other system.
Shaping the global order.
Even if it is not about saving other people (who may or may not want to be saved) the number of communist nations worldwide will shape how global trade flows function. This includes things like tariffs, patent law, investment protection, ...
Fear of the Domino Theory.
If states are successful with the other system, their own population might decide to change the domestic system. That mostly happened with people throwing off Communism in recent decades, but there was a time when Communist revolutions were quite common.
2
This answer doesn't really point out what the US has to gain, as the question asks. Your first point is entirely altruistic, so there's no gain for the US. The third point is a bit circular, as preventing the spread of Communism helps prevent further spread of Communism, but isn't a reason why we should do that in the first place. Only the second point brings any immediate benefit to the US, but it needs to be expanded upon - how is Communism directly related to patent law or tariffs?
– Nuclear Wang
8 hours ago
2
I believe o.m. is pointing out that the U.S. had a lot to lose by countries aligning with the Soviet bloc back in the day. Keeping countries out of the hands of communists hands, even at the cost of supporting right-wing despots, was how the Cold War was fought (at least, that was the perception at the time, and the attitude lingers).
– Jon of All Trades
8 hours ago
1
While spreading their respective ideologies was certainly nice for world domination, I think a bigger motivator during the Cold War was simply controlling who could build missile and air bases where in the event of a hot war.
– AmiralPatate
7 hours ago
@NuclearWang, the conviction/delusion that one is acting in an altruistic way does great things for one's self esteem.
– o.m.
6 hours ago
"there was a time when Communist revolutions were quite common" - True, but even that gets complicated. The heyday of the Peoples' Revolutions occurred when, as a result of the Cold War, Russia and China supported them in the crumbling empires of the European states which, post-WWII, were pitted against Russia and China. Part of the support came from ideological sympathy, but part was a desire to damage the "Democracies". The flip side was US support for bad actors. The US became entangled in Vietnam in part because it felt it could not directly oppose France's attempts to maintain its colonie
– WhatRoughBeast
6 hours ago
add a comment |
Think back 50, 60, 70 years.
There used to be something called the Cold War.
Belief in their own system.
Various free market economies are convinced that some from of Capitalism is right for people worldwide. Communists are convinced that Communism is right for people worldwide. Each wants to convince the rest of the world, and to save the people languishing under the other system.
Shaping the global order.
Even if it is not about saving other people (who may or may not want to be saved) the number of communist nations worldwide will shape how global trade flows function. This includes things like tariffs, patent law, investment protection, ...
Fear of the Domino Theory.
If states are successful with the other system, their own population might decide to change the domestic system. That mostly happened with people throwing off Communism in recent decades, but there was a time when Communist revolutions were quite common.
Think back 50, 60, 70 years.
There used to be something called the Cold War.
Belief in their own system.
Various free market economies are convinced that some from of Capitalism is right for people worldwide. Communists are convinced that Communism is right for people worldwide. Each wants to convince the rest of the world, and to save the people languishing under the other system.
Shaping the global order.
Even if it is not about saving other people (who may or may not want to be saved) the number of communist nations worldwide will shape how global trade flows function. This includes things like tariffs, patent law, investment protection, ...
Fear of the Domino Theory.
If states are successful with the other system, their own population might decide to change the domestic system. That mostly happened with people throwing off Communism in recent decades, but there was a time when Communist revolutions were quite common.
edited 13 hours ago
Jenkar
1032
1032
answered 16 hours ago
o.m.o.m.
7,56911327
7,56911327
2
This answer doesn't really point out what the US has to gain, as the question asks. Your first point is entirely altruistic, so there's no gain for the US. The third point is a bit circular, as preventing the spread of Communism helps prevent further spread of Communism, but isn't a reason why we should do that in the first place. Only the second point brings any immediate benefit to the US, but it needs to be expanded upon - how is Communism directly related to patent law or tariffs?
– Nuclear Wang
8 hours ago
2
I believe o.m. is pointing out that the U.S. had a lot to lose by countries aligning with the Soviet bloc back in the day. Keeping countries out of the hands of communists hands, even at the cost of supporting right-wing despots, was how the Cold War was fought (at least, that was the perception at the time, and the attitude lingers).
– Jon of All Trades
8 hours ago
1
While spreading their respective ideologies was certainly nice for world domination, I think a bigger motivator during the Cold War was simply controlling who could build missile and air bases where in the event of a hot war.
– AmiralPatate
7 hours ago
@NuclearWang, the conviction/delusion that one is acting in an altruistic way does great things for one's self esteem.
– o.m.
6 hours ago
"there was a time when Communist revolutions were quite common" - True, but even that gets complicated. The heyday of the Peoples' Revolutions occurred when, as a result of the Cold War, Russia and China supported them in the crumbling empires of the European states which, post-WWII, were pitted against Russia and China. Part of the support came from ideological sympathy, but part was a desire to damage the "Democracies". The flip side was US support for bad actors. The US became entangled in Vietnam in part because it felt it could not directly oppose France's attempts to maintain its colonie
– WhatRoughBeast
6 hours ago
add a comment |
2
This answer doesn't really point out what the US has to gain, as the question asks. Your first point is entirely altruistic, so there's no gain for the US. The third point is a bit circular, as preventing the spread of Communism helps prevent further spread of Communism, but isn't a reason why we should do that in the first place. Only the second point brings any immediate benefit to the US, but it needs to be expanded upon - how is Communism directly related to patent law or tariffs?
– Nuclear Wang
8 hours ago
2
I believe o.m. is pointing out that the U.S. had a lot to lose by countries aligning with the Soviet bloc back in the day. Keeping countries out of the hands of communists hands, even at the cost of supporting right-wing despots, was how the Cold War was fought (at least, that was the perception at the time, and the attitude lingers).
– Jon of All Trades
8 hours ago
1
While spreading their respective ideologies was certainly nice for world domination, I think a bigger motivator during the Cold War was simply controlling who could build missile and air bases where in the event of a hot war.
– AmiralPatate
7 hours ago
@NuclearWang, the conviction/delusion that one is acting in an altruistic way does great things for one's self esteem.
– o.m.
6 hours ago
"there was a time when Communist revolutions were quite common" - True, but even that gets complicated. The heyday of the Peoples' Revolutions occurred when, as a result of the Cold War, Russia and China supported them in the crumbling empires of the European states which, post-WWII, were pitted against Russia and China. Part of the support came from ideological sympathy, but part was a desire to damage the "Democracies". The flip side was US support for bad actors. The US became entangled in Vietnam in part because it felt it could not directly oppose France's attempts to maintain its colonie
– WhatRoughBeast
6 hours ago
2
2
This answer doesn't really point out what the US has to gain, as the question asks. Your first point is entirely altruistic, so there's no gain for the US. The third point is a bit circular, as preventing the spread of Communism helps prevent further spread of Communism, but isn't a reason why we should do that in the first place. Only the second point brings any immediate benefit to the US, but it needs to be expanded upon - how is Communism directly related to patent law or tariffs?
– Nuclear Wang
8 hours ago
This answer doesn't really point out what the US has to gain, as the question asks. Your first point is entirely altruistic, so there's no gain for the US. The third point is a bit circular, as preventing the spread of Communism helps prevent further spread of Communism, but isn't a reason why we should do that in the first place. Only the second point brings any immediate benefit to the US, but it needs to be expanded upon - how is Communism directly related to patent law or tariffs?
– Nuclear Wang
8 hours ago
2
2
I believe o.m. is pointing out that the U.S. had a lot to lose by countries aligning with the Soviet bloc back in the day. Keeping countries out of the hands of communists hands, even at the cost of supporting right-wing despots, was how the Cold War was fought (at least, that was the perception at the time, and the attitude lingers).
– Jon of All Trades
8 hours ago
I believe o.m. is pointing out that the U.S. had a lot to lose by countries aligning with the Soviet bloc back in the day. Keeping countries out of the hands of communists hands, even at the cost of supporting right-wing despots, was how the Cold War was fought (at least, that was the perception at the time, and the attitude lingers).
– Jon of All Trades
8 hours ago
1
1
While spreading their respective ideologies was certainly nice for world domination, I think a bigger motivator during the Cold War was simply controlling who could build missile and air bases where in the event of a hot war.
– AmiralPatate
7 hours ago
While spreading their respective ideologies was certainly nice for world domination, I think a bigger motivator during the Cold War was simply controlling who could build missile and air bases where in the event of a hot war.
– AmiralPatate
7 hours ago
@NuclearWang, the conviction/delusion that one is acting in an altruistic way does great things for one's self esteem.
– o.m.
6 hours ago
@NuclearWang, the conviction/delusion that one is acting in an altruistic way does great things for one's self esteem.
– o.m.
6 hours ago
"there was a time when Communist revolutions were quite common" - True, but even that gets complicated. The heyday of the Peoples' Revolutions occurred when, as a result of the Cold War, Russia and China supported them in the crumbling empires of the European states which, post-WWII, were pitted against Russia and China. Part of the support came from ideological sympathy, but part was a desire to damage the "Democracies". The flip side was US support for bad actors. The US became entangled in Vietnam in part because it felt it could not directly oppose France's attempts to maintain its colonie
– WhatRoughBeast
6 hours ago
"there was a time when Communist revolutions were quite common" - True, but even that gets complicated. The heyday of the Peoples' Revolutions occurred when, as a result of the Cold War, Russia and China supported them in the crumbling empires of the European states which, post-WWII, were pitted against Russia and China. Part of the support came from ideological sympathy, but part was a desire to damage the "Democracies". The flip side was US support for bad actors. The US became entangled in Vietnam in part because it felt it could not directly oppose France's attempts to maintain its colonie
– WhatRoughBeast
6 hours ago
add a comment |
Being a Socialist state is not a crime by itself. There are plenty of countries in today's world that can be called more or less socialist: consider Nordic model, informally known as Swedish Socialism.
Dictatorships, on the other hand, tend to build Socialist or Communist economies because the Socialism assumes a bigger fraction of the nation's means of production and gross domestic product controlled and redistributed by the ruling regime. See, for example, Lenin: „The Dictatorship Of The Proletariat“ (1919).
Simply speaking, it is easier to rule over the poor than the rich; it easier to be a dictator if your economic system is a Communism.
The biggest concern is that dictatorships — Communist dictatorships — also commit other crimes against human rights and international law, which is seen intolerable by the US:
- the violation of own people's human rights;
- the sharp raise of the violent crime (induces the flow of refugees);
- the state's active role in production and transit of illegal drugs;
- acts of international terrorism;
armed invasions to neighboring countries.
Note, all these problems are not local at all. They splash outside or even are targeted against other states. That's why these regimes pose a threat.
Why is communism considered as evil (like fascism and nazism) in the United States?
Now, straight to the question:
I am wondering, from a USA first point of view, why we would want that.
The US wants to eliminate direct threats to its national security. For example,
Venezuela Defense of Human Rights and Civil Society Act of 2014 (H.R. 4587) says in its preamble (highlight mine):
To impose targeted sanctions on persons responsible for violations of human rights of antigovernment protesters in Venezuela, to strengthen civil society in Venezuela, and for other purposes.
Subsequently, the US President signed and issued a presidential order declaring Venezuela a threat to its national security. — Reuters.
Soon after that, the dictator has denounced the sanctions as the US' attempt to oppress his bright and shiny socialist economy:
“President Barack Obama ... has personally decided to take on the task of defeating my government and intervening in Venezuela to control it,” Maduro said in a televised address.
Someone who hears this speech may be confused into thinking that the US pursues Venezuela because it is Communist.
Summary
Throughout the entire human history, the Communism has been used as a disguise for brutal dictatorships.
There are reasons why the dictatorships prefer being Communist states.
The US' goal is not to overthrow other countries' economic system of manual redistribution of its wealth; instead, the goal is to eliminate threats to the American national security and stop the violation of human rights.
16
You say dictatorships "prefer" to be Communist states. Setting aside that many socialist dictatorships neither identify as Communist nor meet the theoretical definition, have you actually compared the numbers for Communist vs. non-Communist dictatorships? Keep in mind, autocracy in the form of royalty was doing perfectly fine for millenia before Communism was conceived.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
9
If we trust the Polity ranking of autocracy, the countries with a 0 value for democracy (and mostly higher than 5 for autocracy) are Bahrain, North Korea, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland, Syria, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Oman, Azerbaijan, Belarus, China, Cuba, Equatorial Guina, UAE, Eritrea, Iran, Laos, Vietnam, Kazakhstan, Venezuela, Kuwait, Cambodia, Russia, and Tajikstan. I don't have time to assess the system of government of all of those yet, but I think six are Middle Eastern monarchies, plus Iran (religious dictatorship), Russia (Putin in charge, oligarchic).
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
7
Um, Swaziland is also an absolute monarchy (theoretically diarchy), Syria was a dictatorship (there's heavy state control over the economy now, but that mainly started with the war). Eritrea doesn't seem to be socialst anymore, mostly.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
6
"which is seen intolerable by the US" It's not the same generation but let's remember that during the Cold War, the US have sponsored dictators and coup, sometime even against democratically elected governement (e.g. Pinochet against Allende in Chile in 1973). So I think there is more than just "humanitarian feelings" at play.
– Luris
13 hours ago
5
@stegetsj - Eritrea isn't Ethiopia, nor is Cambodia Kampuchea, and "resulting from" communist states is a very broad characterization. The US "resulted from" monarchy in that same sense. It doesn't make sense to put any country that historically espoused Communist ideas down as currently Communist. Eritrea and particuarly Russia cannot currently be characterized as Communist.
– Obie 2.0
12 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
Being a Socialist state is not a crime by itself. There are plenty of countries in today's world that can be called more or less socialist: consider Nordic model, informally known as Swedish Socialism.
Dictatorships, on the other hand, tend to build Socialist or Communist economies because the Socialism assumes a bigger fraction of the nation's means of production and gross domestic product controlled and redistributed by the ruling regime. See, for example, Lenin: „The Dictatorship Of The Proletariat“ (1919).
Simply speaking, it is easier to rule over the poor than the rich; it easier to be a dictator if your economic system is a Communism.
The biggest concern is that dictatorships — Communist dictatorships — also commit other crimes against human rights and international law, which is seen intolerable by the US:
- the violation of own people's human rights;
- the sharp raise of the violent crime (induces the flow of refugees);
- the state's active role in production and transit of illegal drugs;
- acts of international terrorism;
armed invasions to neighboring countries.
Note, all these problems are not local at all. They splash outside or even are targeted against other states. That's why these regimes pose a threat.
Why is communism considered as evil (like fascism and nazism) in the United States?
Now, straight to the question:
I am wondering, from a USA first point of view, why we would want that.
The US wants to eliminate direct threats to its national security. For example,
Venezuela Defense of Human Rights and Civil Society Act of 2014 (H.R. 4587) says in its preamble (highlight mine):
To impose targeted sanctions on persons responsible for violations of human rights of antigovernment protesters in Venezuela, to strengthen civil society in Venezuela, and for other purposes.
Subsequently, the US President signed and issued a presidential order declaring Venezuela a threat to its national security. — Reuters.
Soon after that, the dictator has denounced the sanctions as the US' attempt to oppress his bright and shiny socialist economy:
“President Barack Obama ... has personally decided to take on the task of defeating my government and intervening in Venezuela to control it,” Maduro said in a televised address.
Someone who hears this speech may be confused into thinking that the US pursues Venezuela because it is Communist.
Summary
Throughout the entire human history, the Communism has been used as a disguise for brutal dictatorships.
There are reasons why the dictatorships prefer being Communist states.
The US' goal is not to overthrow other countries' economic system of manual redistribution of its wealth; instead, the goal is to eliminate threats to the American national security and stop the violation of human rights.
16
You say dictatorships "prefer" to be Communist states. Setting aside that many socialist dictatorships neither identify as Communist nor meet the theoretical definition, have you actually compared the numbers for Communist vs. non-Communist dictatorships? Keep in mind, autocracy in the form of royalty was doing perfectly fine for millenia before Communism was conceived.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
9
If we trust the Polity ranking of autocracy, the countries with a 0 value for democracy (and mostly higher than 5 for autocracy) are Bahrain, North Korea, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland, Syria, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Oman, Azerbaijan, Belarus, China, Cuba, Equatorial Guina, UAE, Eritrea, Iran, Laos, Vietnam, Kazakhstan, Venezuela, Kuwait, Cambodia, Russia, and Tajikstan. I don't have time to assess the system of government of all of those yet, but I think six are Middle Eastern monarchies, plus Iran (religious dictatorship), Russia (Putin in charge, oligarchic).
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
7
Um, Swaziland is also an absolute monarchy (theoretically diarchy), Syria was a dictatorship (there's heavy state control over the economy now, but that mainly started with the war). Eritrea doesn't seem to be socialst anymore, mostly.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
6
"which is seen intolerable by the US" It's not the same generation but let's remember that during the Cold War, the US have sponsored dictators and coup, sometime even against democratically elected governement (e.g. Pinochet against Allende in Chile in 1973). So I think there is more than just "humanitarian feelings" at play.
– Luris
13 hours ago
5
@stegetsj - Eritrea isn't Ethiopia, nor is Cambodia Kampuchea, and "resulting from" communist states is a very broad characterization. The US "resulted from" monarchy in that same sense. It doesn't make sense to put any country that historically espoused Communist ideas down as currently Communist. Eritrea and particuarly Russia cannot currently be characterized as Communist.
– Obie 2.0
12 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
Being a Socialist state is not a crime by itself. There are plenty of countries in today's world that can be called more or less socialist: consider Nordic model, informally known as Swedish Socialism.
Dictatorships, on the other hand, tend to build Socialist or Communist economies because the Socialism assumes a bigger fraction of the nation's means of production and gross domestic product controlled and redistributed by the ruling regime. See, for example, Lenin: „The Dictatorship Of The Proletariat“ (1919).
Simply speaking, it is easier to rule over the poor than the rich; it easier to be a dictator if your economic system is a Communism.
The biggest concern is that dictatorships — Communist dictatorships — also commit other crimes against human rights and international law, which is seen intolerable by the US:
- the violation of own people's human rights;
- the sharp raise of the violent crime (induces the flow of refugees);
- the state's active role in production and transit of illegal drugs;
- acts of international terrorism;
armed invasions to neighboring countries.
Note, all these problems are not local at all. They splash outside or even are targeted against other states. That's why these regimes pose a threat.
Why is communism considered as evil (like fascism and nazism) in the United States?
Now, straight to the question:
I am wondering, from a USA first point of view, why we would want that.
The US wants to eliminate direct threats to its national security. For example,
Venezuela Defense of Human Rights and Civil Society Act of 2014 (H.R. 4587) says in its preamble (highlight mine):
To impose targeted sanctions on persons responsible for violations of human rights of antigovernment protesters in Venezuela, to strengthen civil society in Venezuela, and for other purposes.
Subsequently, the US President signed and issued a presidential order declaring Venezuela a threat to its national security. — Reuters.
Soon after that, the dictator has denounced the sanctions as the US' attempt to oppress his bright and shiny socialist economy:
“President Barack Obama ... has personally decided to take on the task of defeating my government and intervening in Venezuela to control it,” Maduro said in a televised address.
Someone who hears this speech may be confused into thinking that the US pursues Venezuela because it is Communist.
Summary
Throughout the entire human history, the Communism has been used as a disguise for brutal dictatorships.
There are reasons why the dictatorships prefer being Communist states.
The US' goal is not to overthrow other countries' economic system of manual redistribution of its wealth; instead, the goal is to eliminate threats to the American national security and stop the violation of human rights.
Being a Socialist state is not a crime by itself. There are plenty of countries in today's world that can be called more or less socialist: consider Nordic model, informally known as Swedish Socialism.
Dictatorships, on the other hand, tend to build Socialist or Communist economies because the Socialism assumes a bigger fraction of the nation's means of production and gross domestic product controlled and redistributed by the ruling regime. See, for example, Lenin: „The Dictatorship Of The Proletariat“ (1919).
Simply speaking, it is easier to rule over the poor than the rich; it easier to be a dictator if your economic system is a Communism.
The biggest concern is that dictatorships — Communist dictatorships — also commit other crimes against human rights and international law, which is seen intolerable by the US:
- the violation of own people's human rights;
- the sharp raise of the violent crime (induces the flow of refugees);
- the state's active role in production and transit of illegal drugs;
- acts of international terrorism;
armed invasions to neighboring countries.
Note, all these problems are not local at all. They splash outside or even are targeted against other states. That's why these regimes pose a threat.
Why is communism considered as evil (like fascism and nazism) in the United States?
Now, straight to the question:
I am wondering, from a USA first point of view, why we would want that.
The US wants to eliminate direct threats to its national security. For example,
Venezuela Defense of Human Rights and Civil Society Act of 2014 (H.R. 4587) says in its preamble (highlight mine):
To impose targeted sanctions on persons responsible for violations of human rights of antigovernment protesters in Venezuela, to strengthen civil society in Venezuela, and for other purposes.
Subsequently, the US President signed and issued a presidential order declaring Venezuela a threat to its national security. — Reuters.
Soon after that, the dictator has denounced the sanctions as the US' attempt to oppress his bright and shiny socialist economy:
“President Barack Obama ... has personally decided to take on the task of defeating my government and intervening in Venezuela to control it,” Maduro said in a televised address.
Someone who hears this speech may be confused into thinking that the US pursues Venezuela because it is Communist.
Summary
Throughout the entire human history, the Communism has been used as a disguise for brutal dictatorships.
There are reasons why the dictatorships prefer being Communist states.
The US' goal is not to overthrow other countries' economic system of manual redistribution of its wealth; instead, the goal is to eliminate threats to the American national security and stop the violation of human rights.
answered 14 hours ago
bytebusterbytebuster
6,99952363
6,99952363
16
You say dictatorships "prefer" to be Communist states. Setting aside that many socialist dictatorships neither identify as Communist nor meet the theoretical definition, have you actually compared the numbers for Communist vs. non-Communist dictatorships? Keep in mind, autocracy in the form of royalty was doing perfectly fine for millenia before Communism was conceived.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
9
If we trust the Polity ranking of autocracy, the countries with a 0 value for democracy (and mostly higher than 5 for autocracy) are Bahrain, North Korea, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland, Syria, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Oman, Azerbaijan, Belarus, China, Cuba, Equatorial Guina, UAE, Eritrea, Iran, Laos, Vietnam, Kazakhstan, Venezuela, Kuwait, Cambodia, Russia, and Tajikstan. I don't have time to assess the system of government of all of those yet, but I think six are Middle Eastern monarchies, plus Iran (religious dictatorship), Russia (Putin in charge, oligarchic).
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
7
Um, Swaziland is also an absolute monarchy (theoretically diarchy), Syria was a dictatorship (there's heavy state control over the economy now, but that mainly started with the war). Eritrea doesn't seem to be socialst anymore, mostly.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
6
"which is seen intolerable by the US" It's not the same generation but let's remember that during the Cold War, the US have sponsored dictators and coup, sometime even against democratically elected governement (e.g. Pinochet against Allende in Chile in 1973). So I think there is more than just "humanitarian feelings" at play.
– Luris
13 hours ago
5
@stegetsj - Eritrea isn't Ethiopia, nor is Cambodia Kampuchea, and "resulting from" communist states is a very broad characterization. The US "resulted from" monarchy in that same sense. It doesn't make sense to put any country that historically espoused Communist ideas down as currently Communist. Eritrea and particuarly Russia cannot currently be characterized as Communist.
– Obie 2.0
12 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
16
You say dictatorships "prefer" to be Communist states. Setting aside that many socialist dictatorships neither identify as Communist nor meet the theoretical definition, have you actually compared the numbers for Communist vs. non-Communist dictatorships? Keep in mind, autocracy in the form of royalty was doing perfectly fine for millenia before Communism was conceived.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
9
If we trust the Polity ranking of autocracy, the countries with a 0 value for democracy (and mostly higher than 5 for autocracy) are Bahrain, North Korea, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland, Syria, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Oman, Azerbaijan, Belarus, China, Cuba, Equatorial Guina, UAE, Eritrea, Iran, Laos, Vietnam, Kazakhstan, Venezuela, Kuwait, Cambodia, Russia, and Tajikstan. I don't have time to assess the system of government of all of those yet, but I think six are Middle Eastern monarchies, plus Iran (religious dictatorship), Russia (Putin in charge, oligarchic).
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
7
Um, Swaziland is also an absolute monarchy (theoretically diarchy), Syria was a dictatorship (there's heavy state control over the economy now, but that mainly started with the war). Eritrea doesn't seem to be socialst anymore, mostly.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
6
"which is seen intolerable by the US" It's not the same generation but let's remember that during the Cold War, the US have sponsored dictators and coup, sometime even against democratically elected governement (e.g. Pinochet against Allende in Chile in 1973). So I think there is more than just "humanitarian feelings" at play.
– Luris
13 hours ago
5
@stegetsj - Eritrea isn't Ethiopia, nor is Cambodia Kampuchea, and "resulting from" communist states is a very broad characterization. The US "resulted from" monarchy in that same sense. It doesn't make sense to put any country that historically espoused Communist ideas down as currently Communist. Eritrea and particuarly Russia cannot currently be characterized as Communist.
– Obie 2.0
12 hours ago
16
16
You say dictatorships "prefer" to be Communist states. Setting aside that many socialist dictatorships neither identify as Communist nor meet the theoretical definition, have you actually compared the numbers for Communist vs. non-Communist dictatorships? Keep in mind, autocracy in the form of royalty was doing perfectly fine for millenia before Communism was conceived.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
You say dictatorships "prefer" to be Communist states. Setting aside that many socialist dictatorships neither identify as Communist nor meet the theoretical definition, have you actually compared the numbers for Communist vs. non-Communist dictatorships? Keep in mind, autocracy in the form of royalty was doing perfectly fine for millenia before Communism was conceived.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
9
9
If we trust the Polity ranking of autocracy, the countries with a 0 value for democracy (and mostly higher than 5 for autocracy) are Bahrain, North Korea, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland, Syria, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Oman, Azerbaijan, Belarus, China, Cuba, Equatorial Guina, UAE, Eritrea, Iran, Laos, Vietnam, Kazakhstan, Venezuela, Kuwait, Cambodia, Russia, and Tajikstan. I don't have time to assess the system of government of all of those yet, but I think six are Middle Eastern monarchies, plus Iran (religious dictatorship), Russia (Putin in charge, oligarchic).
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
If we trust the Polity ranking of autocracy, the countries with a 0 value for democracy (and mostly higher than 5 for autocracy) are Bahrain, North Korea, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Swaziland, Syria, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Oman, Azerbaijan, Belarus, China, Cuba, Equatorial Guina, UAE, Eritrea, Iran, Laos, Vietnam, Kazakhstan, Venezuela, Kuwait, Cambodia, Russia, and Tajikstan. I don't have time to assess the system of government of all of those yet, but I think six are Middle Eastern monarchies, plus Iran (religious dictatorship), Russia (Putin in charge, oligarchic).
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
7
7
Um, Swaziland is also an absolute monarchy (theoretically diarchy), Syria was a dictatorship (there's heavy state control over the economy now, but that mainly started with the war). Eritrea doesn't seem to be socialst anymore, mostly.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
Um, Swaziland is also an absolute monarchy (theoretically diarchy), Syria was a dictatorship (there's heavy state control over the economy now, but that mainly started with the war). Eritrea doesn't seem to be socialst anymore, mostly.
– Obie 2.0
14 hours ago
6
6
"which is seen intolerable by the US" It's not the same generation but let's remember that during the Cold War, the US have sponsored dictators and coup, sometime even against democratically elected governement (e.g. Pinochet against Allende in Chile in 1973). So I think there is more than just "humanitarian feelings" at play.
– Luris
13 hours ago
"which is seen intolerable by the US" It's not the same generation but let's remember that during the Cold War, the US have sponsored dictators and coup, sometime even against democratically elected governement (e.g. Pinochet against Allende in Chile in 1973). So I think there is more than just "humanitarian feelings" at play.
– Luris
13 hours ago
5
5
@stegetsj - Eritrea isn't Ethiopia, nor is Cambodia Kampuchea, and "resulting from" communist states is a very broad characterization. The US "resulted from" monarchy in that same sense. It doesn't make sense to put any country that historically espoused Communist ideas down as currently Communist. Eritrea and particuarly Russia cannot currently be characterized as Communist.
– Obie 2.0
12 hours ago
@stegetsj - Eritrea isn't Ethiopia, nor is Cambodia Kampuchea, and "resulting from" communist states is a very broad characterization. The US "resulted from" monarchy in that same sense. It doesn't make sense to put any country that historically espoused Communist ideas down as currently Communist. Eritrea and particuarly Russia cannot currently be characterized as Communist.
– Obie 2.0
12 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
I think the most useful framework to use to view US foreign policy is the one set out in Walter Russel Mead's Special Providence.
The thesis is that there are essentially 4 schools of foreign policy, continually jockeying for getting their own way. Their primary goals are roughly: promoting US business, promoting US values, protecting the US from foreign threats, and "Never start a fight, but always finish it." He respectively labeled these 4 schools "Hamiltonians", "Wilsonians", "Jeffersonians", and "Jacksonians". Basically, if you as a foreign country never manage to tick off more than one of these groups, you will generally do OK.
Hamiltonians are always going to have problems with any country that Nationalizes large amount of private assets. Particularly if the private companies in question were US companies, or had lucrative contracts with US companies. So while they don't neesecarily care if a country decides to have universal healthcare, they care a great deal if it decides to nationalize its entire Oil industry. Venezuela did this in 1976, but it was Chavez in 1999 who kicked all the foreign oil projects out of the country. This earned him (and his protégé's ) the enmity of the Hamiltonians.
Wilsonians want other countries to be democratic, and their people to be free. Any country whose rulers clearly cheat an election will be on their shitlist. They didn't have a big problem with Chavez kicking US Oil companies out when he did it back in 1999, because he was a popular elected leader of a young Democracy, and in their books the region needs more of those.
However, recently things have changed. Venezuela abolished its Presidential term limits in 2009. In 2015 the ruling party lot its parliamentary election, and essentially created its own separate parliament rather than abide by it. A recall movement started, which the President's government cancelled by fiat. The next election in 2017 had more shenanigains than I can list, resulting in polling showing about 73% of Venezuelans thinking the new assembly is not valid, and 78% considering their country to now be a dictatorship.
Wilsonians do not like election shenanigans, and certainly don't like dictatorships. That's two strikes.
Jeffersonains are generally OK with countries as long as they don't threaten the US. Unfortunately, Venezuelan leaders have made a habit of casting the US as their enemy, as a tactic to distract from domestic troubles. While not a huge threat, they have also been busy the last few decades publicly making common cause with other countries that are generally perceived to be US enemies, like Cuba and Russia. This is clearly unfriendly behavior, and does not have them in good smell with Jeffersonians. Strike three.
Jacksonians aren't going to be approving of any messing with Venezuela until the day we are actually fighting. For Maduro, that's a good thing. The US Army and Marines are heavily peopled by folks with this outlook (as are a lot of lower-income relatively apolitical Americans, from which those services draw) This is the one group you do not want to tick off above all others.
So the basic problem the current Venezuela regime has is that they've actively ticked off 3 of the 4 poles of US foreign policy. Anyone in this situation can expect a lot of non-military intervention (and military isn't out of the question either).
1
I think the point about Jeffersonians hides a much more relevant point - allies. Even after the Clod War (misspelling intentional), war by proxy is very much alive and well. The US very much wants to deprive Russia and China of allies. That alone is enough to get the US motivated to intervene.
– cpcodes
5 hours ago
@cpcodes - The people who are Jeffersonians, yes. However, they don't have total power. Meade's thesis is that if you just fall afoul of that one group of thinkers, it generally isn't enough to get the entire US foreign policy apparatus against you. Particularly if some of the other 3 poles like you (eg: If there are US business interests that would be threatened by rocking the boat, and/or its a new democracy). Its when you run afowl of multiple schools, and none of them are pulling for you, that you are most likely to get into trouble.
– T.E.D.
3 hours ago
add a comment |
I think the most useful framework to use to view US foreign policy is the one set out in Walter Russel Mead's Special Providence.
The thesis is that there are essentially 4 schools of foreign policy, continually jockeying for getting their own way. Their primary goals are roughly: promoting US business, promoting US values, protecting the US from foreign threats, and "Never start a fight, but always finish it." He respectively labeled these 4 schools "Hamiltonians", "Wilsonians", "Jeffersonians", and "Jacksonians". Basically, if you as a foreign country never manage to tick off more than one of these groups, you will generally do OK.
Hamiltonians are always going to have problems with any country that Nationalizes large amount of private assets. Particularly if the private companies in question were US companies, or had lucrative contracts with US companies. So while they don't neesecarily care if a country decides to have universal healthcare, they care a great deal if it decides to nationalize its entire Oil industry. Venezuela did this in 1976, but it was Chavez in 1999 who kicked all the foreign oil projects out of the country. This earned him (and his protégé's ) the enmity of the Hamiltonians.
Wilsonians want other countries to be democratic, and their people to be free. Any country whose rulers clearly cheat an election will be on their shitlist. They didn't have a big problem with Chavez kicking US Oil companies out when he did it back in 1999, because he was a popular elected leader of a young Democracy, and in their books the region needs more of those.
However, recently things have changed. Venezuela abolished its Presidential term limits in 2009. In 2015 the ruling party lot its parliamentary election, and essentially created its own separate parliament rather than abide by it. A recall movement started, which the President's government cancelled by fiat. The next election in 2017 had more shenanigains than I can list, resulting in polling showing about 73% of Venezuelans thinking the new assembly is not valid, and 78% considering their country to now be a dictatorship.
Wilsonians do not like election shenanigans, and certainly don't like dictatorships. That's two strikes.
Jeffersonains are generally OK with countries as long as they don't threaten the US. Unfortunately, Venezuelan leaders have made a habit of casting the US as their enemy, as a tactic to distract from domestic troubles. While not a huge threat, they have also been busy the last few decades publicly making common cause with other countries that are generally perceived to be US enemies, like Cuba and Russia. This is clearly unfriendly behavior, and does not have them in good smell with Jeffersonians. Strike three.
Jacksonians aren't going to be approving of any messing with Venezuela until the day we are actually fighting. For Maduro, that's a good thing. The US Army and Marines are heavily peopled by folks with this outlook (as are a lot of lower-income relatively apolitical Americans, from which those services draw) This is the one group you do not want to tick off above all others.
So the basic problem the current Venezuela regime has is that they've actively ticked off 3 of the 4 poles of US foreign policy. Anyone in this situation can expect a lot of non-military intervention (and military isn't out of the question either).
1
I think the point about Jeffersonians hides a much more relevant point - allies. Even after the Clod War (misspelling intentional), war by proxy is very much alive and well. The US very much wants to deprive Russia and China of allies. That alone is enough to get the US motivated to intervene.
– cpcodes
5 hours ago
@cpcodes - The people who are Jeffersonians, yes. However, they don't have total power. Meade's thesis is that if you just fall afoul of that one group of thinkers, it generally isn't enough to get the entire US foreign policy apparatus against you. Particularly if some of the other 3 poles like you (eg: If there are US business interests that would be threatened by rocking the boat, and/or its a new democracy). Its when you run afowl of multiple schools, and none of them are pulling for you, that you are most likely to get into trouble.
– T.E.D.
3 hours ago
add a comment |
I think the most useful framework to use to view US foreign policy is the one set out in Walter Russel Mead's Special Providence.
The thesis is that there are essentially 4 schools of foreign policy, continually jockeying for getting their own way. Their primary goals are roughly: promoting US business, promoting US values, protecting the US from foreign threats, and "Never start a fight, but always finish it." He respectively labeled these 4 schools "Hamiltonians", "Wilsonians", "Jeffersonians", and "Jacksonians". Basically, if you as a foreign country never manage to tick off more than one of these groups, you will generally do OK.
Hamiltonians are always going to have problems with any country that Nationalizes large amount of private assets. Particularly if the private companies in question were US companies, or had lucrative contracts with US companies. So while they don't neesecarily care if a country decides to have universal healthcare, they care a great deal if it decides to nationalize its entire Oil industry. Venezuela did this in 1976, but it was Chavez in 1999 who kicked all the foreign oil projects out of the country. This earned him (and his protégé's ) the enmity of the Hamiltonians.
Wilsonians want other countries to be democratic, and their people to be free. Any country whose rulers clearly cheat an election will be on their shitlist. They didn't have a big problem with Chavez kicking US Oil companies out when he did it back in 1999, because he was a popular elected leader of a young Democracy, and in their books the region needs more of those.
However, recently things have changed. Venezuela abolished its Presidential term limits in 2009. In 2015 the ruling party lot its parliamentary election, and essentially created its own separate parliament rather than abide by it. A recall movement started, which the President's government cancelled by fiat. The next election in 2017 had more shenanigains than I can list, resulting in polling showing about 73% of Venezuelans thinking the new assembly is not valid, and 78% considering their country to now be a dictatorship.
Wilsonians do not like election shenanigans, and certainly don't like dictatorships. That's two strikes.
Jeffersonains are generally OK with countries as long as they don't threaten the US. Unfortunately, Venezuelan leaders have made a habit of casting the US as their enemy, as a tactic to distract from domestic troubles. While not a huge threat, they have also been busy the last few decades publicly making common cause with other countries that are generally perceived to be US enemies, like Cuba and Russia. This is clearly unfriendly behavior, and does not have them in good smell with Jeffersonians. Strike three.
Jacksonians aren't going to be approving of any messing with Venezuela until the day we are actually fighting. For Maduro, that's a good thing. The US Army and Marines are heavily peopled by folks with this outlook (as are a lot of lower-income relatively apolitical Americans, from which those services draw) This is the one group you do not want to tick off above all others.
So the basic problem the current Venezuela regime has is that they've actively ticked off 3 of the 4 poles of US foreign policy. Anyone in this situation can expect a lot of non-military intervention (and military isn't out of the question either).
I think the most useful framework to use to view US foreign policy is the one set out in Walter Russel Mead's Special Providence.
The thesis is that there are essentially 4 schools of foreign policy, continually jockeying for getting their own way. Their primary goals are roughly: promoting US business, promoting US values, protecting the US from foreign threats, and "Never start a fight, but always finish it." He respectively labeled these 4 schools "Hamiltonians", "Wilsonians", "Jeffersonians", and "Jacksonians". Basically, if you as a foreign country never manage to tick off more than one of these groups, you will generally do OK.
Hamiltonians are always going to have problems with any country that Nationalizes large amount of private assets. Particularly if the private companies in question were US companies, or had lucrative contracts with US companies. So while they don't neesecarily care if a country decides to have universal healthcare, they care a great deal if it decides to nationalize its entire Oil industry. Venezuela did this in 1976, but it was Chavez in 1999 who kicked all the foreign oil projects out of the country. This earned him (and his protégé's ) the enmity of the Hamiltonians.
Wilsonians want other countries to be democratic, and their people to be free. Any country whose rulers clearly cheat an election will be on their shitlist. They didn't have a big problem with Chavez kicking US Oil companies out when he did it back in 1999, because he was a popular elected leader of a young Democracy, and in their books the region needs more of those.
However, recently things have changed. Venezuela abolished its Presidential term limits in 2009. In 2015 the ruling party lot its parliamentary election, and essentially created its own separate parliament rather than abide by it. A recall movement started, which the President's government cancelled by fiat. The next election in 2017 had more shenanigains than I can list, resulting in polling showing about 73% of Venezuelans thinking the new assembly is not valid, and 78% considering their country to now be a dictatorship.
Wilsonians do not like election shenanigans, and certainly don't like dictatorships. That's two strikes.
Jeffersonains are generally OK with countries as long as they don't threaten the US. Unfortunately, Venezuelan leaders have made a habit of casting the US as their enemy, as a tactic to distract from domestic troubles. While not a huge threat, they have also been busy the last few decades publicly making common cause with other countries that are generally perceived to be US enemies, like Cuba and Russia. This is clearly unfriendly behavior, and does not have them in good smell with Jeffersonians. Strike three.
Jacksonians aren't going to be approving of any messing with Venezuela until the day we are actually fighting. For Maduro, that's a good thing. The US Army and Marines are heavily peopled by folks with this outlook (as are a lot of lower-income relatively apolitical Americans, from which those services draw) This is the one group you do not want to tick off above all others.
So the basic problem the current Venezuela regime has is that they've actively ticked off 3 of the 4 poles of US foreign policy. Anyone in this situation can expect a lot of non-military intervention (and military isn't out of the question either).
edited 2 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
T.E.D.T.E.D.
6,99711633
6,99711633
1
I think the point about Jeffersonians hides a much more relevant point - allies. Even after the Clod War (misspelling intentional), war by proxy is very much alive and well. The US very much wants to deprive Russia and China of allies. That alone is enough to get the US motivated to intervene.
– cpcodes
5 hours ago
@cpcodes - The people who are Jeffersonians, yes. However, they don't have total power. Meade's thesis is that if you just fall afoul of that one group of thinkers, it generally isn't enough to get the entire US foreign policy apparatus against you. Particularly if some of the other 3 poles like you (eg: If there are US business interests that would be threatened by rocking the boat, and/or its a new democracy). Its when you run afowl of multiple schools, and none of them are pulling for you, that you are most likely to get into trouble.
– T.E.D.
3 hours ago
add a comment |
1
I think the point about Jeffersonians hides a much more relevant point - allies. Even after the Clod War (misspelling intentional), war by proxy is very much alive and well. The US very much wants to deprive Russia and China of allies. That alone is enough to get the US motivated to intervene.
– cpcodes
5 hours ago
@cpcodes - The people who are Jeffersonians, yes. However, they don't have total power. Meade's thesis is that if you just fall afoul of that one group of thinkers, it generally isn't enough to get the entire US foreign policy apparatus against you. Particularly if some of the other 3 poles like you (eg: If there are US business interests that would be threatened by rocking the boat, and/or its a new democracy). Its when you run afowl of multiple schools, and none of them are pulling for you, that you are most likely to get into trouble.
– T.E.D.
3 hours ago
1
1
I think the point about Jeffersonians hides a much more relevant point - allies. Even after the Clod War (misspelling intentional), war by proxy is very much alive and well. The US very much wants to deprive Russia and China of allies. That alone is enough to get the US motivated to intervene.
– cpcodes
5 hours ago
I think the point about Jeffersonians hides a much more relevant point - allies. Even after the Clod War (misspelling intentional), war by proxy is very much alive and well. The US very much wants to deprive Russia and China of allies. That alone is enough to get the US motivated to intervene.
– cpcodes
5 hours ago
@cpcodes - The people who are Jeffersonians, yes. However, they don't have total power. Meade's thesis is that if you just fall afoul of that one group of thinkers, it generally isn't enough to get the entire US foreign policy apparatus against you. Particularly if some of the other 3 poles like you (eg: If there are US business interests that would be threatened by rocking the boat, and/or its a new democracy). Its when you run afowl of multiple schools, and none of them are pulling for you, that you are most likely to get into trouble.
– T.E.D.
3 hours ago
@cpcodes - The people who are Jeffersonians, yes. However, they don't have total power. Meade's thesis is that if you just fall afoul of that one group of thinkers, it generally isn't enough to get the entire US foreign policy apparatus against you. Particularly if some of the other 3 poles like you (eg: If there are US business interests that would be threatened by rocking the boat, and/or its a new democracy). Its when you run afowl of multiple schools, and none of them are pulling for you, that you are most likely to get into trouble.
– T.E.D.
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Let's look at some history.
According to Wikipedia, during the Cold War, the USSR had tens of thousands of nuclear weapons. The primary target was of course the United States. Furthermore, there were incidents where, had things gone a bit differently, the weapons might have been used. In particular, there was the Cuban Missile Crisis and the lesser-known but possibly-more-dangerous 1983 Soviet nuclear false alarm.
More recently, Kim Jong un repeatedly threatened a nuclear attack on the United States.
Additionally, socialist countries have a habit of producing major refugee crises. The current Venezuela crisis is only the latest example. See also the Mariel Boatlift and the Zimbabwe refugees.
In short, socialist countries tend to cause a lot of problems not only for their own people, but also for everyone else.
Lastly, I would argue that the most important question for humans is whether or not we will succeed in expanding beyond the Earth. Obviously nuclear wars and refugee crises won't help with that.
2
All three points you bring have also been caused by capitalist countries. That kinda nullifies your argument... The statement "In short, capitalist countries tend to cause a lot of problems not only for their own people, but also for everyone else." is equally valid.
– JS Lavertu
7 hours ago
2
@JSLavertu - Which capitalist countries have caused a lot of problems that have not been more than offset by the good they created? Which capitalist countries have had their people fleeing capitalism in refugee crisis? William's points are not nullified in the slightest; you are just being pedantic. I would suggest this answer add the words 'in net' after the word 'countries' and before the word 'tend'. Then that nullifies your comment entirely.
– Dunk
5 hours ago
@Dunk Moving the goalposts doesn't make for a valid rebuttal of my criticism. My comment stands.
– JS Lavertu
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Let's look at some history.
According to Wikipedia, during the Cold War, the USSR had tens of thousands of nuclear weapons. The primary target was of course the United States. Furthermore, there were incidents where, had things gone a bit differently, the weapons might have been used. In particular, there was the Cuban Missile Crisis and the lesser-known but possibly-more-dangerous 1983 Soviet nuclear false alarm.
More recently, Kim Jong un repeatedly threatened a nuclear attack on the United States.
Additionally, socialist countries have a habit of producing major refugee crises. The current Venezuela crisis is only the latest example. See also the Mariel Boatlift and the Zimbabwe refugees.
In short, socialist countries tend to cause a lot of problems not only for their own people, but also for everyone else.
Lastly, I would argue that the most important question for humans is whether or not we will succeed in expanding beyond the Earth. Obviously nuclear wars and refugee crises won't help with that.
2
All three points you bring have also been caused by capitalist countries. That kinda nullifies your argument... The statement "In short, capitalist countries tend to cause a lot of problems not only for their own people, but also for everyone else." is equally valid.
– JS Lavertu
7 hours ago
2
@JSLavertu - Which capitalist countries have caused a lot of problems that have not been more than offset by the good they created? Which capitalist countries have had their people fleeing capitalism in refugee crisis? William's points are not nullified in the slightest; you are just being pedantic. I would suggest this answer add the words 'in net' after the word 'countries' and before the word 'tend'. Then that nullifies your comment entirely.
– Dunk
5 hours ago
@Dunk Moving the goalposts doesn't make for a valid rebuttal of my criticism. My comment stands.
– JS Lavertu
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Let's look at some history.
According to Wikipedia, during the Cold War, the USSR had tens of thousands of nuclear weapons. The primary target was of course the United States. Furthermore, there were incidents where, had things gone a bit differently, the weapons might have been used. In particular, there was the Cuban Missile Crisis and the lesser-known but possibly-more-dangerous 1983 Soviet nuclear false alarm.
More recently, Kim Jong un repeatedly threatened a nuclear attack on the United States.
Additionally, socialist countries have a habit of producing major refugee crises. The current Venezuela crisis is only the latest example. See also the Mariel Boatlift and the Zimbabwe refugees.
In short, socialist countries tend to cause a lot of problems not only for their own people, but also for everyone else.
Lastly, I would argue that the most important question for humans is whether or not we will succeed in expanding beyond the Earth. Obviously nuclear wars and refugee crises won't help with that.
Let's look at some history.
According to Wikipedia, during the Cold War, the USSR had tens of thousands of nuclear weapons. The primary target was of course the United States. Furthermore, there were incidents where, had things gone a bit differently, the weapons might have been used. In particular, there was the Cuban Missile Crisis and the lesser-known but possibly-more-dangerous 1983 Soviet nuclear false alarm.
More recently, Kim Jong un repeatedly threatened a nuclear attack on the United States.
Additionally, socialist countries have a habit of producing major refugee crises. The current Venezuela crisis is only the latest example. See also the Mariel Boatlift and the Zimbabwe refugees.
In short, socialist countries tend to cause a lot of problems not only for their own people, but also for everyone else.
Lastly, I would argue that the most important question for humans is whether or not we will succeed in expanding beyond the Earth. Obviously nuclear wars and refugee crises won't help with that.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
William JockuschWilliam Jockusch
1,6891314
1,6891314
2
All three points you bring have also been caused by capitalist countries. That kinda nullifies your argument... The statement "In short, capitalist countries tend to cause a lot of problems not only for their own people, but also for everyone else." is equally valid.
– JS Lavertu
7 hours ago
2
@JSLavertu - Which capitalist countries have caused a lot of problems that have not been more than offset by the good they created? Which capitalist countries have had their people fleeing capitalism in refugee crisis? William's points are not nullified in the slightest; you are just being pedantic. I would suggest this answer add the words 'in net' after the word 'countries' and before the word 'tend'. Then that nullifies your comment entirely.
– Dunk
5 hours ago
@Dunk Moving the goalposts doesn't make for a valid rebuttal of my criticism. My comment stands.
– JS Lavertu
1 hour ago
add a comment |
2
All three points you bring have also been caused by capitalist countries. That kinda nullifies your argument... The statement "In short, capitalist countries tend to cause a lot of problems not only for their own people, but also for everyone else." is equally valid.
– JS Lavertu
7 hours ago
2
@JSLavertu - Which capitalist countries have caused a lot of problems that have not been more than offset by the good they created? Which capitalist countries have had their people fleeing capitalism in refugee crisis? William's points are not nullified in the slightest; you are just being pedantic. I would suggest this answer add the words 'in net' after the word 'countries' and before the word 'tend'. Then that nullifies your comment entirely.
– Dunk
5 hours ago
@Dunk Moving the goalposts doesn't make for a valid rebuttal of my criticism. My comment stands.
– JS Lavertu
1 hour ago
2
2
All three points you bring have also been caused by capitalist countries. That kinda nullifies your argument... The statement "In short, capitalist countries tend to cause a lot of problems not only for their own people, but also for everyone else." is equally valid.
– JS Lavertu
7 hours ago
All three points you bring have also been caused by capitalist countries. That kinda nullifies your argument... The statement "In short, capitalist countries tend to cause a lot of problems not only for their own people, but also for everyone else." is equally valid.
– JS Lavertu
7 hours ago
2
2
@JSLavertu - Which capitalist countries have caused a lot of problems that have not been more than offset by the good they created? Which capitalist countries have had their people fleeing capitalism in refugee crisis? William's points are not nullified in the slightest; you are just being pedantic. I would suggest this answer add the words 'in net' after the word 'countries' and before the word 'tend'. Then that nullifies your comment entirely.
– Dunk
5 hours ago
@JSLavertu - Which capitalist countries have caused a lot of problems that have not been more than offset by the good they created? Which capitalist countries have had their people fleeing capitalism in refugee crisis? William's points are not nullified in the slightest; you are just being pedantic. I would suggest this answer add the words 'in net' after the word 'countries' and before the word 'tend'. Then that nullifies your comment entirely.
– Dunk
5 hours ago
@Dunk Moving the goalposts doesn't make for a valid rebuttal of my criticism. My comment stands.
– JS Lavertu
1 hour ago
@Dunk Moving the goalposts doesn't make for a valid rebuttal of my criticism. My comment stands.
– JS Lavertu
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I think US interest in Venezuela has less to do with it being socialist, or for altruistic reasons, or "freedom" (#rollseyes). It has more to do with regional security.
The country has experienced a sudden exodus of over 1 million people, already having a destabilizing effect in Colombia, Brazil and Ecuador.
Sooner or later refugees will come to our borders (and you know how "welcoming" we are of refugees, that was sarcasm btw.)
At least that's how I see our government looking at the Venezuelan crisis. As for other socialists or communist countries (there are no communist countries left, btw), I don't think we quite give a hoot about them as long as they don't pose a destabilization risk.
And any type of intervention in the past must be seen in the context of the Cold War (and an amoral affinity for cold-blooded dictators wherever it suited our foreign policy, something we have thankfully grown out of... somewhat.)
New contributor
luis.espinal is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
I think US interest in Venezuela has less to do with it being socialist, or for altruistic reasons, or "freedom" (#rollseyes). It has more to do with regional security.
The country has experienced a sudden exodus of over 1 million people, already having a destabilizing effect in Colombia, Brazil and Ecuador.
Sooner or later refugees will come to our borders (and you know how "welcoming" we are of refugees, that was sarcasm btw.)
At least that's how I see our government looking at the Venezuelan crisis. As for other socialists or communist countries (there are no communist countries left, btw), I don't think we quite give a hoot about them as long as they don't pose a destabilization risk.
And any type of intervention in the past must be seen in the context of the Cold War (and an amoral affinity for cold-blooded dictators wherever it suited our foreign policy, something we have thankfully grown out of... somewhat.)
New contributor
luis.espinal is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
I think US interest in Venezuela has less to do with it being socialist, or for altruistic reasons, or "freedom" (#rollseyes). It has more to do with regional security.
The country has experienced a sudden exodus of over 1 million people, already having a destabilizing effect in Colombia, Brazil and Ecuador.
Sooner or later refugees will come to our borders (and you know how "welcoming" we are of refugees, that was sarcasm btw.)
At least that's how I see our government looking at the Venezuelan crisis. As for other socialists or communist countries (there are no communist countries left, btw), I don't think we quite give a hoot about them as long as they don't pose a destabilization risk.
And any type of intervention in the past must be seen in the context of the Cold War (and an amoral affinity for cold-blooded dictators wherever it suited our foreign policy, something we have thankfully grown out of... somewhat.)
New contributor
luis.espinal is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I think US interest in Venezuela has less to do with it being socialist, or for altruistic reasons, or "freedom" (#rollseyes). It has more to do with regional security.
The country has experienced a sudden exodus of over 1 million people, already having a destabilizing effect in Colombia, Brazil and Ecuador.
Sooner or later refugees will come to our borders (and you know how "welcoming" we are of refugees, that was sarcasm btw.)
At least that's how I see our government looking at the Venezuelan crisis. As for other socialists or communist countries (there are no communist countries left, btw), I don't think we quite give a hoot about them as long as they don't pose a destabilization risk.
And any type of intervention in the past must be seen in the context of the Cold War (and an amoral affinity for cold-blooded dictators wherever it suited our foreign policy, something we have thankfully grown out of... somewhat.)
New contributor
luis.espinal is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
luis.espinal is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 3 hours ago
luis.espinalluis.espinal
1112
1112
New contributor
luis.espinal is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
luis.espinal is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
luis.espinal is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
add a comment |
The direct answer would be:
Trade. If countries follow communist or socialist ideas, trading with them will be less free. Also it will disable American companies in investing in those countries.
Which leads me to the main essence of this issue:
The USA are in fact a Plutocracy. Which means it's government is exclusively made out of the rich people / the top 5% of the population. So it will act within the interests of rich people and companies. Socialist regimes tend to nationalyze companies and factories, etc... This contradicts the interest of the American (plutocratic) government, as even if the politicians themself aren't affected by the socialist acts, their friends and/or sponsors may be. This is also the difference between Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. While both countries are humanitarian catastrophies, one is an ally and the other is considered bad. Venezuela also has the largest oil reserves (their known ressources have more than tripled over the last 8 years), making them important for most powerful industries. Right now, those oil reserves are in the hand of the venezuelan goverment, so they dictate what is happening with the oil. And that's the problem with the dictator being socialist.

List of known oil reserves
This is a US election that defies logic and brings the nation closer towards a one-party state masquerading as a two-party state.
To the election of 2012
Additional information to politics and economy, the "political compass"
3
You will likely need to back up some of your assertions about American plutocracy if this answer is to succeed. Also, Venezuela has the most oil? I’d like to see a source on that—obviously both Venezuela and Saudi Arabia are oil-rich countries, but I thought Saudi Arabia was more so.
– KRyan
9 hours ago
Yes, you're right, but i have not so much time right now, I will add the sources ASAIC
– miep
9 hours ago
3
The US isn't a plutocracy, not even close. Haiti, under Papa Doc, the Philippines under Marcos were both plutocracies. There are many people in the US who's annual earnings are at the 50% level who own a nice house and drive a nice car and have a good life. Plutocracy involves taking. (And the more we grow the government the more we will grow plutocracy so the trend is not good.)
– Mayo
8 hours ago
1
Well, technically the US fullfills all criteria for a plutocracy. "Rule of/Power to the money". In the US, all the power is held by the rich. So for what reason it is not? I'm interested.
– miep
8 hours ago
1
@miep - Exactly who are these 'rich' people with all the power? Is it the 1%'ers? Does that mean that 90% of americans hold power over the rest of the world since over 90% of americans are in the 1%er's for the world? What draconian rules are these evil people with all the money and power that are running the USA imposing on the masses?
– Dunk
5 hours ago
add a comment |
The direct answer would be:
Trade. If countries follow communist or socialist ideas, trading with them will be less free. Also it will disable American companies in investing in those countries.
Which leads me to the main essence of this issue:
The USA are in fact a Plutocracy. Which means it's government is exclusively made out of the rich people / the top 5% of the population. So it will act within the interests of rich people and companies. Socialist regimes tend to nationalyze companies and factories, etc... This contradicts the interest of the American (plutocratic) government, as even if the politicians themself aren't affected by the socialist acts, their friends and/or sponsors may be. This is also the difference between Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. While both countries are humanitarian catastrophies, one is an ally and the other is considered bad. Venezuela also has the largest oil reserves (their known ressources have more than tripled over the last 8 years), making them important for most powerful industries. Right now, those oil reserves are in the hand of the venezuelan goverment, so they dictate what is happening with the oil. And that's the problem with the dictator being socialist.

List of known oil reserves
This is a US election that defies logic and brings the nation closer towards a one-party state masquerading as a two-party state.
To the election of 2012
Additional information to politics and economy, the "political compass"
3
You will likely need to back up some of your assertions about American plutocracy if this answer is to succeed. Also, Venezuela has the most oil? I’d like to see a source on that—obviously both Venezuela and Saudi Arabia are oil-rich countries, but I thought Saudi Arabia was more so.
– KRyan
9 hours ago
Yes, you're right, but i have not so much time right now, I will add the sources ASAIC
– miep
9 hours ago
3
The US isn't a plutocracy, not even close. Haiti, under Papa Doc, the Philippines under Marcos were both plutocracies. There are many people in the US who's annual earnings are at the 50% level who own a nice house and drive a nice car and have a good life. Plutocracy involves taking. (And the more we grow the government the more we will grow plutocracy so the trend is not good.)
– Mayo
8 hours ago
1
Well, technically the US fullfills all criteria for a plutocracy. "Rule of/Power to the money". In the US, all the power is held by the rich. So for what reason it is not? I'm interested.
– miep
8 hours ago
1
@miep - Exactly who are these 'rich' people with all the power? Is it the 1%'ers? Does that mean that 90% of americans hold power over the rest of the world since over 90% of americans are in the 1%er's for the world? What draconian rules are these evil people with all the money and power that are running the USA imposing on the masses?
– Dunk
5 hours ago
add a comment |
The direct answer would be:
Trade. If countries follow communist or socialist ideas, trading with them will be less free. Also it will disable American companies in investing in those countries.
Which leads me to the main essence of this issue:
The USA are in fact a Plutocracy. Which means it's government is exclusively made out of the rich people / the top 5% of the population. So it will act within the interests of rich people and companies. Socialist regimes tend to nationalyze companies and factories, etc... This contradicts the interest of the American (plutocratic) government, as even if the politicians themself aren't affected by the socialist acts, their friends and/or sponsors may be. This is also the difference between Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. While both countries are humanitarian catastrophies, one is an ally and the other is considered bad. Venezuela also has the largest oil reserves (their known ressources have more than tripled over the last 8 years), making them important for most powerful industries. Right now, those oil reserves are in the hand of the venezuelan goverment, so they dictate what is happening with the oil. And that's the problem with the dictator being socialist.

List of known oil reserves
This is a US election that defies logic and brings the nation closer towards a one-party state masquerading as a two-party state.
To the election of 2012
Additional information to politics and economy, the "political compass"
The direct answer would be:
Trade. If countries follow communist or socialist ideas, trading with them will be less free. Also it will disable American companies in investing in those countries.
Which leads me to the main essence of this issue:
The USA are in fact a Plutocracy. Which means it's government is exclusively made out of the rich people / the top 5% of the population. So it will act within the interests of rich people and companies. Socialist regimes tend to nationalyze companies and factories, etc... This contradicts the interest of the American (plutocratic) government, as even if the politicians themself aren't affected by the socialist acts, their friends and/or sponsors may be. This is also the difference between Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. While both countries are humanitarian catastrophies, one is an ally and the other is considered bad. Venezuela also has the largest oil reserves (their known ressources have more than tripled over the last 8 years), making them important for most powerful industries. Right now, those oil reserves are in the hand of the venezuelan goverment, so they dictate what is happening with the oil. And that's the problem with the dictator being socialist.

List of known oil reserves
This is a US election that defies logic and brings the nation closer towards a one-party state masquerading as a two-party state.
To the election of 2012
Additional information to politics and economy, the "political compass"
edited 8 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
miepmiep
4639
4639
3
You will likely need to back up some of your assertions about American plutocracy if this answer is to succeed. Also, Venezuela has the most oil? I’d like to see a source on that—obviously both Venezuela and Saudi Arabia are oil-rich countries, but I thought Saudi Arabia was more so.
– KRyan
9 hours ago
Yes, you're right, but i have not so much time right now, I will add the sources ASAIC
– miep
9 hours ago
3
The US isn't a plutocracy, not even close. Haiti, under Papa Doc, the Philippines under Marcos were both plutocracies. There are many people in the US who's annual earnings are at the 50% level who own a nice house and drive a nice car and have a good life. Plutocracy involves taking. (And the more we grow the government the more we will grow plutocracy so the trend is not good.)
– Mayo
8 hours ago
1
Well, technically the US fullfills all criteria for a plutocracy. "Rule of/Power to the money". In the US, all the power is held by the rich. So for what reason it is not? I'm interested.
– miep
8 hours ago
1
@miep - Exactly who are these 'rich' people with all the power? Is it the 1%'ers? Does that mean that 90% of americans hold power over the rest of the world since over 90% of americans are in the 1%er's for the world? What draconian rules are these evil people with all the money and power that are running the USA imposing on the masses?
– Dunk
5 hours ago
add a comment |
3
You will likely need to back up some of your assertions about American plutocracy if this answer is to succeed. Also, Venezuela has the most oil? I’d like to see a source on that—obviously both Venezuela and Saudi Arabia are oil-rich countries, but I thought Saudi Arabia was more so.
– KRyan
9 hours ago
Yes, you're right, but i have not so much time right now, I will add the sources ASAIC
– miep
9 hours ago
3
The US isn't a plutocracy, not even close. Haiti, under Papa Doc, the Philippines under Marcos were both plutocracies. There are many people in the US who's annual earnings are at the 50% level who own a nice house and drive a nice car and have a good life. Plutocracy involves taking. (And the more we grow the government the more we will grow plutocracy so the trend is not good.)
– Mayo
8 hours ago
1
Well, technically the US fullfills all criteria for a plutocracy. "Rule of/Power to the money". In the US, all the power is held by the rich. So for what reason it is not? I'm interested.
– miep
8 hours ago
1
@miep - Exactly who are these 'rich' people with all the power? Is it the 1%'ers? Does that mean that 90% of americans hold power over the rest of the world since over 90% of americans are in the 1%er's for the world? What draconian rules are these evil people with all the money and power that are running the USA imposing on the masses?
– Dunk
5 hours ago
3
3
You will likely need to back up some of your assertions about American plutocracy if this answer is to succeed. Also, Venezuela has the most oil? I’d like to see a source on that—obviously both Venezuela and Saudi Arabia are oil-rich countries, but I thought Saudi Arabia was more so.
– KRyan
9 hours ago
You will likely need to back up some of your assertions about American plutocracy if this answer is to succeed. Also, Venezuela has the most oil? I’d like to see a source on that—obviously both Venezuela and Saudi Arabia are oil-rich countries, but I thought Saudi Arabia was more so.
– KRyan
9 hours ago
Yes, you're right, but i have not so much time right now, I will add the sources ASAIC
– miep
9 hours ago
Yes, you're right, but i have not so much time right now, I will add the sources ASAIC
– miep
9 hours ago
3
3
The US isn't a plutocracy, not even close. Haiti, under Papa Doc, the Philippines under Marcos were both plutocracies. There are many people in the US who's annual earnings are at the 50% level who own a nice house and drive a nice car and have a good life. Plutocracy involves taking. (And the more we grow the government the more we will grow plutocracy so the trend is not good.)
– Mayo
8 hours ago
The US isn't a plutocracy, not even close. Haiti, under Papa Doc, the Philippines under Marcos were both plutocracies. There are many people in the US who's annual earnings are at the 50% level who own a nice house and drive a nice car and have a good life. Plutocracy involves taking. (And the more we grow the government the more we will grow plutocracy so the trend is not good.)
– Mayo
8 hours ago
1
1
Well, technically the US fullfills all criteria for a plutocracy. "Rule of/Power to the money". In the US, all the power is held by the rich. So for what reason it is not? I'm interested.
– miep
8 hours ago
Well, technically the US fullfills all criteria for a plutocracy. "Rule of/Power to the money". In the US, all the power is held by the rich. So for what reason it is not? I'm interested.
– miep
8 hours ago
1
1
@miep - Exactly who are these 'rich' people with all the power? Is it the 1%'ers? Does that mean that 90% of americans hold power over the rest of the world since over 90% of americans are in the 1%er's for the world? What draconian rules are these evil people with all the money and power that are running the USA imposing on the masses?
– Dunk
5 hours ago
@miep - Exactly who are these 'rich' people with all the power? Is it the 1%'ers? Does that mean that 90% of americans hold power over the rest of the world since over 90% of americans are in the 1%er's for the world? What draconian rules are these evil people with all the money and power that are running the USA imposing on the masses?
– Dunk
5 hours ago
add a comment |
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18
Putting aside purely altruistic motives, if a country is not competitive - if its people are impoverished, even starving - then you can't make money selling them things, which is not good for your economy.
– jamesqf
17 hours ago
2
@jamesqf But it's easy to buy things from them dirt cheap, including relocating your factories there to take advantage of lower wages. I do doubt, strongly, that the USA is aiming for a world where every country is as rich as them or more.
– Rekesoft
11 hours ago
2
@Rekesoft I doubt you could attribute a singular attitude to an entire country or its government. Regardless, what makes people rich is trade, more rich people means there is more trade, more trade is good for traders, more trade means more rich people. There's no good reason to keep people impoverished in other countries.
– iain
9 hours ago
2
@iain A richer country is more assertive than a poor one. A richer country has bigger budgets for defence, too. Notice how China-US relationship has grown tense as China was getting richer.
– Rekesoft
8 hours ago
3
@Rekesoft As the U.S. and others have found out, relocating factories to communist countries - especially unstable ones - has a lot of potential downsides, not the least of which is the factories being nationalized, as happened to foreign factories in Venezuela. And, of course, communist countries are also renowned for their industrial espionage, so sending your designs there for manufacturing is a good way to have your designs stolen and copied.
– reirab
7 hours ago