Co-worker team leader wants to inject his friend's awful software into our development. What should I say to...












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In theory, he is on the same level as me. In practice, he is above me (as de-facto team-leader). I am working in development/devops, with a partial overlap with his projects.



We just had a meeting with the company wanting to sell this crap software to us. He invited me to this meeting, even though he had enough information about my preferences to know that I will likely strongly dislike the idea.



I started to write a mail to our boss, where I just say the truth, as I see it. The problem is that after I've read my own mail, it became clear that at the average company it would endanger my job. Thus I deleted this mail, without sending it.



In general, the company has an above-average friendly atmosphere what I consider a big value, and I don't want to poison it. The opinion of the subordinates also has an above-average effect to the higher-level decisions, I also consider that a big value here. In exchange, our wages are a little bit below average.



The problem is that the team-leader will now probably utilize his "influence" over the developers to support the idea, and thus influence the decision of our common boss. In this "indirect" way, he will probably be able to inject the crap software into the development.



I don't have the same influence.



But I need to do something. But what?










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  • 2





    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Mister Positive
    yesterday











  • What is this "crap software"? are we talking a library to meet a business need? IE: Aspose to process Word Documents? Or is it junk-ware that gets installed on the clients mahines? IE: "bonus offers" that come with Adobe Reader? Is it middle-ware that does stuff like Source Safe? Different approaches to different types of "crap software"...

    – WernerCD
    6 hours ago













  • @WernerCD While I am happy on your curiosity and I would be glad to share more details behind a flask of beer, in our current context, these are not needed infos to answer the question.

    – Gray Sheep
    6 hours ago













  • @Mindwin Might read the chat and the answers.

    – Gray Sheep
    6 hours ago













  • Shrug I think they are... They will determine the justification for the software and the arguments against said "softwares" both from a developer perspective and a business perspective.

    – WernerCD
    6 hours ago
















72















In theory, he is on the same level as me. In practice, he is above me (as de-facto team-leader). I am working in development/devops, with a partial overlap with his projects.



We just had a meeting with the company wanting to sell this crap software to us. He invited me to this meeting, even though he had enough information about my preferences to know that I will likely strongly dislike the idea.



I started to write a mail to our boss, where I just say the truth, as I see it. The problem is that after I've read my own mail, it became clear that at the average company it would endanger my job. Thus I deleted this mail, without sending it.



In general, the company has an above-average friendly atmosphere what I consider a big value, and I don't want to poison it. The opinion of the subordinates also has an above-average effect to the higher-level decisions, I also consider that a big value here. In exchange, our wages are a little bit below average.



The problem is that the team-leader will now probably utilize his "influence" over the developers to support the idea, and thus influence the decision of our common boss. In this "indirect" way, he will probably be able to inject the crap software into the development.



I don't have the same influence.



But I need to do something. But what?










share|improve this question




















  • 2





    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Mister Positive
    yesterday











  • What is this "crap software"? are we talking a library to meet a business need? IE: Aspose to process Word Documents? Or is it junk-ware that gets installed on the clients mahines? IE: "bonus offers" that come with Adobe Reader? Is it middle-ware that does stuff like Source Safe? Different approaches to different types of "crap software"...

    – WernerCD
    6 hours ago













  • @WernerCD While I am happy on your curiosity and I would be glad to share more details behind a flask of beer, in our current context, these are not needed infos to answer the question.

    – Gray Sheep
    6 hours ago













  • @Mindwin Might read the chat and the answers.

    – Gray Sheep
    6 hours ago













  • Shrug I think they are... They will determine the justification for the software and the arguments against said "softwares" both from a developer perspective and a business perspective.

    – WernerCD
    6 hours ago














72












72








72


3






In theory, he is on the same level as me. In practice, he is above me (as de-facto team-leader). I am working in development/devops, with a partial overlap with his projects.



We just had a meeting with the company wanting to sell this crap software to us. He invited me to this meeting, even though he had enough information about my preferences to know that I will likely strongly dislike the idea.



I started to write a mail to our boss, where I just say the truth, as I see it. The problem is that after I've read my own mail, it became clear that at the average company it would endanger my job. Thus I deleted this mail, without sending it.



In general, the company has an above-average friendly atmosphere what I consider a big value, and I don't want to poison it. The opinion of the subordinates also has an above-average effect to the higher-level decisions, I also consider that a big value here. In exchange, our wages are a little bit below average.



The problem is that the team-leader will now probably utilize his "influence" over the developers to support the idea, and thus influence the decision of our common boss. In this "indirect" way, he will probably be able to inject the crap software into the development.



I don't have the same influence.



But I need to do something. But what?










share|improve this question
















In theory, he is on the same level as me. In practice, he is above me (as de-facto team-leader). I am working in development/devops, with a partial overlap with his projects.



We just had a meeting with the company wanting to sell this crap software to us. He invited me to this meeting, even though he had enough information about my preferences to know that I will likely strongly dislike the idea.



I started to write a mail to our boss, where I just say the truth, as I see it. The problem is that after I've read my own mail, it became clear that at the average company it would endanger my job. Thus I deleted this mail, without sending it.



In general, the company has an above-average friendly atmosphere what I consider a big value, and I don't want to poison it. The opinion of the subordinates also has an above-average effect to the higher-level decisions, I also consider that a big value here. In exchange, our wages are a little bit below average.



The problem is that the team-leader will now probably utilize his "influence" over the developers to support the idea, and thus influence the decision of our common boss. In this "indirect" way, he will probably be able to inject the crap software into the development.



I don't have the same influence.



But I need to do something. But what?







colleagues ethics software-development feedback review






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edited 3 hours ago









user45266

1234




1234










asked yesterday









Gray SheepGray Sheep

1,58421224




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  • 2





    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Mister Positive
    yesterday











  • What is this "crap software"? are we talking a library to meet a business need? IE: Aspose to process Word Documents? Or is it junk-ware that gets installed on the clients mahines? IE: "bonus offers" that come with Adobe Reader? Is it middle-ware that does stuff like Source Safe? Different approaches to different types of "crap software"...

    – WernerCD
    6 hours ago













  • @WernerCD While I am happy on your curiosity and I would be glad to share more details behind a flask of beer, in our current context, these are not needed infos to answer the question.

    – Gray Sheep
    6 hours ago













  • @Mindwin Might read the chat and the answers.

    – Gray Sheep
    6 hours ago













  • Shrug I think they are... They will determine the justification for the software and the arguments against said "softwares" both from a developer perspective and a business perspective.

    – WernerCD
    6 hours ago














  • 2





    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

    – Mister Positive
    yesterday











  • What is this "crap software"? are we talking a library to meet a business need? IE: Aspose to process Word Documents? Or is it junk-ware that gets installed on the clients mahines? IE: "bonus offers" that come with Adobe Reader? Is it middle-ware that does stuff like Source Safe? Different approaches to different types of "crap software"...

    – WernerCD
    6 hours ago













  • @WernerCD While I am happy on your curiosity and I would be glad to share more details behind a flask of beer, in our current context, these are not needed infos to answer the question.

    – Gray Sheep
    6 hours ago













  • @Mindwin Might read the chat and the answers.

    – Gray Sheep
    6 hours ago













  • Shrug I think they are... They will determine the justification for the software and the arguments against said "softwares" both from a developer perspective and a business perspective.

    – WernerCD
    6 hours ago








2




2





Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

– Mister Positive
yesterday





Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

– Mister Positive
yesterday













What is this "crap software"? are we talking a library to meet a business need? IE: Aspose to process Word Documents? Or is it junk-ware that gets installed on the clients mahines? IE: "bonus offers" that come with Adobe Reader? Is it middle-ware that does stuff like Source Safe? Different approaches to different types of "crap software"...

– WernerCD
6 hours ago







What is this "crap software"? are we talking a library to meet a business need? IE: Aspose to process Word Documents? Or is it junk-ware that gets installed on the clients mahines? IE: "bonus offers" that come with Adobe Reader? Is it middle-ware that does stuff like Source Safe? Different approaches to different types of "crap software"...

– WernerCD
6 hours ago















@WernerCD While I am happy on your curiosity and I would be glad to share more details behind a flask of beer, in our current context, these are not needed infos to answer the question.

– Gray Sheep
6 hours ago







@WernerCD While I am happy on your curiosity and I would be glad to share more details behind a flask of beer, in our current context, these are not needed infos to answer the question.

– Gray Sheep
6 hours ago















@Mindwin Might read the chat and the answers.

– Gray Sheep
6 hours ago







@Mindwin Might read the chat and the answers.

– Gray Sheep
6 hours ago















Shrug I think they are... They will determine the justification for the software and the arguments against said "softwares" both from a developer perspective and a business perspective.

– WernerCD
6 hours ago





Shrug I think they are... They will determine the justification for the software and the arguments against said "softwares" both from a developer perspective and a business perspective.

– WernerCD
6 hours ago










12 Answers
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199















But something I need to do. But what?




Provide your feedback in a "constructive way", and be done about it. Not your place to make decisions.



Mention something along the lines of




"It was good to get a chance to evaluate the product X. As I see it:



- Pros: 1, 2, 3



- Cons: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, ......



As it is evident from the analysis above, the list of cons overwhelms the list of pros, overall, I'd not be inclined to use this.



There might be better alternative which could have a reverse result of the given assessment, please let me know if you'd need me to work on that."




You were invited to the meeting (and the demo, I guess), and you have a fair idea of the ups and downs. You report them, solely based on the merits and demerits. Leave the decision making part to the people who are taking them.



At a later point of time if it comes back in the form that "even-after-new-tool-why-productivity-is-down" argument, well, you'll have your "proof".






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  • 100





    Since OP has already highlighted that they had a bias before the meeting even started; this might help them establish in their own mind if the product really is as bad as they think it is.

    – UKMonkey
    yesterday






  • 16





    +1, but I wish I could upvote more - namely because this answer covers the two most important aspects: Always put forth your assessment in a constructive, non-disparaging way and keep a paper (err, electron. err, you get the idea) trail.

    – OnoSendai
    yesterday











  • I would replace I see it with I found that and I would add a sentence somewhere saying something like `This list is not closed. I will update it with any new informations I collect. Any input is welcome." The idea is to get more informations from your coworkers and to show that you have an open mind.

    – aloisdg
    yesterday






  • 10





    Make sure you're comfortable with anyone in the company seeing anything you put in writing. It's very likely that the other team lead will see what you wrote, so write it in an impartial voice, presenting facts and not opinions.

    – David S.
    23 hours ago






  • 5





    Just copy the mail to the other lead yourself, in fact add everybody who was at that meeting. It will seem more impartial that way.

    – Stig Hemmer
    12 hours ago



















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If you believe that a coworker is operating in cronyistic manner and playing fast and loose with company funds, yes, that is something you should raise with your manager.



Saying the software is "crap" is not likely to get you much traction. You must quantify how it is substandard, and how the business will not get the appropriate value for money. Just as you are annoyed that your teamleader is not objective, you must be objective yourself.



For example, you can contrast this "crap" software with competitor offerings. You could also estimate the value to the code base in saved man-hours.



It's possible you were invited along to provide the illusion of objectivity. If your "teamleader" picked you because he knew you may be "cautious" to bring up this with your manager, and thus he gets implicit validation from your presence.



"@GraySheep was there and he didn't raise any concerns"



You don't want to be silent and have the truth to come out.






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  • Thank you very much! However, saying that behind the back of the teamleader would look like a machination for me. Saying that with the knowledge of the teamlead (i.e. Cc:-ing the mail to him) would be an open conflict. Which is better?

    – Gray Sheep
    yesterday






  • 6





    If you didn't want to go behind the back, or can't trust management, the other option is not conflict. I would probably address an email to your "team-leader" and CC your manager and start with: "Thank you for giving me an opportunity to assist the business in assessing the suitability of solution Y from company Z. I have summerised my assessment below, and also a brief assessment of other options. I'm always free to discuss any of the points if you wish." Then give a breakdown on the pros/cons of the solution, and follow up with pros/cons of competing solutions. (Maybe not in as much depth).

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday






  • 2





    I wouldn't mention, at all, that they are friends with the "team-leader", or even treat them specially. Be objective. If you wanted to go behind the back of the team-leader, you can raise concerns with the manager, but he will probably ask you to prepare a list of pros/cons, so maybe the letter above is a starting point.

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday






  • 12





    Gregory's comment on "saying it is crap won't get you far" remains true even if the software is, indeed, a steaming pile of crap

    – corsiKa
    yesterday






  • 1





    @GregroyCurrie I explained the facts in a short mail to the boss. I didn't use the word "crap" and any negative. I just explained that it wouldn't help and we should still use technology X, first because it is what the customer wants, and second because it is the common technology of the industry and the devs simply should learn it. No answer arrived, but I am sure that the boss read it.

    – Gray Sheep
    yesterday



















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(Good) management is influenced by logic, not name-calling. Reading your OP, you have mentioned that you think this software is crap, but you didn't say how or why. If I was a manager and I read your OP, I would think you were just a troublemaker, and you would lose face with me. If this is how you wrote the email to management, then it's a good thing you didn't send it.



What you want to do is lay out, plainly and objectively, what your objections are. Maybe you have a use case that this software doesn't satisfy? Maybe the software is too slow or doesn't meet other benchmarks? Maybe the support isn't there for it, so technical issues that arise would be hard to resolve? Maybe it's just plain buggy? Whatever the problems are, explain them in a clear and detailed way to management. Don't use words like "crap" or "horrible" or whatever; those are weasel words and don't mean anything. Outline your concerns, and let your concerns speak for themselves.






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  • Thanks. This is what I did. It probably won't have any effect, we will see on the long-term, what happens.

    – Gray Sheep
    yesterday



















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But something I need to do. But what?




First thing constructive to do is to check your motivations carefully, why do you need to do something? Why do you want to engage in a dispute that you think you will lose.



If you're asked to analyse a tool, do so, give the pro's and cons without bias. Don't create problems without complete analysis or reason.






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  • 7





    @GraySheep Those are two personal reasons. You need to make this about the business.

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday






  • 7





    @GraySheep 1) Is being cross-platform important to your business? 2) Is free software important to your business? 3) What does this even mean?

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday






  • 3





    @GregroyCurrie Yes, because development runs in a mixed environment (windows + mac + linux), servers are mainly linuxes. In most of our projects, the customers get access also to the source code.

    – Gray Sheep
    yesterday






  • 8





    @GraySheep This all seems very personal for you. You need to adjust your mentality and shift towards acting (or at least seen to be acting) in the best interest of your employer.

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday






  • 4





    It sounds to me like you're just taking your co-worker's proposal personally because it might make you a redundant resource. Maybe the business simply values getting rid DevOps resources more than the other issues you suggest that the proposal will cause.

    – Rich
    23 hours ago





















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Rewrite the letter you were going to send your boss.



Don't assume bad intentions from your coworker.



Be polite. Be specific. Drop the word "crap". Give your honest but detailed evaluation and be able to back up every point you raise, and ideally put an example of each point in the letter.



Boss,

I've reviewed the code being offered and I view it as sub-standard for the following reasons...

1) Reason #1. Reason for thinking this is a problem. Example.



(Sample) 1) There are no comments in the code. They have X lines of code. I did a grep search and found a grand total of Y comment lines. For perspective our current code base has...






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  • 2





    Point taken, though some people don't consider comment line % a great indicator of code quality :)

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday











  • @GregroyCurrie I took over a code base that had 100k+ lines of code which had a total of 7 comment lines. Those 7 lines of comments were worthless. There was no external documentation at all. He's got strong opinions, hopefully there are strong reasons.

    – Dark Matter
    yesterday








  • 3





    If 7 lines of comments were worthless, couldn't 99k of comments be worthless :) I agree that good code has meaningful comments though.

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday






  • 1





    @TimB No argument from me. (Though some languages make it easier to write clear code, compared to others).

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday








  • 3





    @Dark Matter: On the other end of the scale, I've seen profusely commented code (often done with automatic "documentation" generators) in which the vast majority of comments are of the "i++; /* increment i */" sort.

    – jamesqf
    yesterday



















3














You call this software "crap" a couple of times, so you clearly know a thing or two about what it does, and what your company actually needs. Write up a document (email) outlining your concerns about the features / functionality, and send it to your boss.



I would suggest also offering alternatives, such that you're not simply coming across as jealous, or negative. Make a table analyzing features, pricing, etc.




Some options that don't share the same risks are X, and Y. The pricing for X is a little higher than the option proposed by John, but offers these advantages: ...




At the very end of the email you may include a phrase along the lines of:




As you can see, there are solid reasons why we should continue looking for a product to fill this niche. Furthermore I fear that John's decision to recommend this software may be influenced by the fact that a close personal friend of his created it.




You may want to hold that tidbit of information in reserve just in case you have to escalate, however.






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  • Yes, I know far more enough from this software to call it a crap. Its only advantage is that it helps the developers to avoid learning technology X, what is a quite common technology in the industry, but somehow they've solved to avoid to learn it. Now the teamlead came with this software, which avoids them to learn it, as a side effect 1) it helps him to exterminate me 2) it will lead to malpractice on the long-term. I see these, but now the word of the teamlead + the developers standing with him is against mine. Surely mine will be more weak.

    – Gray Sheep
    yesterday





















3














Talk about it with your colleague/unofficial teamleader.



You think he knows your opinion about the topic but it may not be this way.



He invited you to the meeting which means he values your opinion. (I assume here that he didn't invite you to taunt you because your high opinion on the good working climate)



Tell him directly that the software he wants to introduce would, in your opinion, hinder further development of the project.
The cause for his support for the software in question might be personal, which he should overthink.
If this isn't the case ask him to explain to you why he thinks the software will improve the development.



A normal discussion about work related topic which does affect your work shouldn't cause danger to your employment or social status in your company.
It might even improve because you show compassion for your work.



But most importantly: You do it professional.



EDIT1: If your colleague does not show any kind of good reasoning talk about it with your manager afterwards. Maybe propose a three-way discussion to get the topic dealt with fast.






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  • 4





    He could also have been invited to give the illusion of objectivity.

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday






  • 1





    Nevertheless the fact that OP was invited to the meeting means that the OP does have competence in the topic and is therefore qualified/entitled to be part of the decision. And because the co-worker cannot end the illusion now means that he can do nothing about OP expressing his honest and professional opinion.

    – GittingGud
    yesterday






  • 1





    I don't think that's necessarily true, though it is probably true in this instance. But I agree fully that he should make the most of this "illusion".

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday



















3















He invited me to this meeting, even though he had enough information from my preferences to know that I will likely strongly dislike the idea.




Perhaps he is feeling pressured by his friends to put their software forward, even though he may not like it himself. He could be hoping that someone else will notice its flaws.



I might talk to him directly (depending on our relationship) and try to determine what he really thinks. I would also try to point out the flaws in more neutral language than 'crap' software.






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paw88789 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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    2














    Your colleague has a conflict of interest. You should discuss this with the other members of your organization, and make sure that the software is properly evaluated by a party without vested interest and free from undue influence.






    share|improve this answer
























    • A possible conflict of interest is a non-issue if the tool is good, and this is what now the whole team except me is saying.

      – Gray Sheep
      yesterday



















    2














    If his friend doesn't work for the company, then injecting his buds software into the company's workflow is simply a conflict of interest. Pointing that out would help a lot.



    I'd also explain to my boss why this software is crap and I'd try to provide some cost benefits analysis of using it. I'd even go so far as to attempt to show how much money the company will lose from the lost development time dealing with the unmaintainable can of worms your team lead's friend is trying to pass off as code. That should help too.



    You are going above your team leads head though, so this likely won't have the greatest impact on your career at your current company. You're a dev though; you can always get another job, that will probably come with a pay raise, so you shouldn't be scared in situations like these.






    share|improve this answer
























    • I am here because the athmosphere is nice and the bosses hear us. These are huge improvements to my previous experiences, and they worth the little bit lower wage for me. I don't want to become a slave again only for +10%. If I switch to another job, I will lose these.

      – Gray Sheep
      yesterday













    • Ok. There is a technology, call "technology X", which is quite common in the industry and practically all useful developer knows it. Our devs somehow managed to avoid to learn it until now. The tool, call it "tool Y" what the teamlead want to inject, has three effects: 1) avoids the devs to learn "technology X" 2) will lead to various malpractices/customer unsatisifedness on the long-term 3) expels me as devops from the projects using "technology X". | These are the facts. What are the motives, these are still unknown for me.

      – Gray Sheep
      yesterday








    • 1





      @GraySheep why is your involvement with the project pivotal to its success? What other advantages would learning tech X give your team. You need an estimate of how much time/money the malpractices will cause. Also, is there a good reason that your team insists on not using tech X?

      – Steve
      yesterday






    • 2





      Regarding your answer: I can't point to the conflict of interest because I am 99% sure, but I have no proof. I won't accuse anybody falsely. And the final decision is not in the hands of the teamlead, but in the hands of the boss. I explained these in a mail, so professionally as I could. My word will be probably far weaker than the whole teams.

      – Gray Sheep
      yesterday






    • 1





      @GraySheep You must be in London. Be careful about the freelancer stuff. You can make double, but you also need to pay for all of your stuff, healthcare, taxes, etc...

      – Steve
      5 hours ago



















    0














    make questions.



    identify some issue that will arise using that software and ask how it will be handled.




    we support multiple platforms but this tool does not: how this will be handled? we're leaving development on platform X that's the core of our customer base?



    this new tool is licensed under license X that is not compatible with our product: a rewrite of our license may be required?



    we're automating task X, Y and Z with a cut to the costs of 15% but this new tool is not compatible with current automation software: which automation solution we have to acquire to achieve the same goal?




    management pay attention to costs but usually does not care about technicalities; if you can provide a few heavy questions with visible costs attached your point can get across easily.



    make too many or too silly/whyning questions and you will lose any traction from now on and will be labeled as troublemaker.






    share|improve this answer































      0














      You mention this software being awful, crap as you call it.



      Prove it!



      Crap software:




      • is very unstable (what if you let it run with a lot of requests at the same time) => perform load tests

      • is very picky on input data/parameters (when you enter a string where a number is expected, the whole thing crashes).

      • from a developer point of view, very heavily maintainable : imagine that somebody requests a change, how many time is needed for developing an obvious modification?

      • not user friendly (how should it look like?)

      • wasting resources (how long does it take for making the easiest of calculations, how many memory does it use up, ...?)


      I understand: setting up an environment for proving the bad quality of this software might take some time, so in order to convince management, you might inform management about your doubts and request for some time to prepare the testing environment (in case this is not available yet).





      share






















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        12 Answers
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        12 Answers
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        But something I need to do. But what?




        Provide your feedback in a "constructive way", and be done about it. Not your place to make decisions.



        Mention something along the lines of




        "It was good to get a chance to evaluate the product X. As I see it:



        - Pros: 1, 2, 3



        - Cons: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, ......



        As it is evident from the analysis above, the list of cons overwhelms the list of pros, overall, I'd not be inclined to use this.



        There might be better alternative which could have a reverse result of the given assessment, please let me know if you'd need me to work on that."




        You were invited to the meeting (and the demo, I guess), and you have a fair idea of the ups and downs. You report them, solely based on the merits and demerits. Leave the decision making part to the people who are taking them.



        At a later point of time if it comes back in the form that "even-after-new-tool-why-productivity-is-down" argument, well, you'll have your "proof".






        share|improve this answer





















        • 100





          Since OP has already highlighted that they had a bias before the meeting even started; this might help them establish in their own mind if the product really is as bad as they think it is.

          – UKMonkey
          yesterday






        • 16





          +1, but I wish I could upvote more - namely because this answer covers the two most important aspects: Always put forth your assessment in a constructive, non-disparaging way and keep a paper (err, electron. err, you get the idea) trail.

          – OnoSendai
          yesterday











        • I would replace I see it with I found that and I would add a sentence somewhere saying something like `This list is not closed. I will update it with any new informations I collect. Any input is welcome." The idea is to get more informations from your coworkers and to show that you have an open mind.

          – aloisdg
          yesterday






        • 10





          Make sure you're comfortable with anyone in the company seeing anything you put in writing. It's very likely that the other team lead will see what you wrote, so write it in an impartial voice, presenting facts and not opinions.

          – David S.
          23 hours ago






        • 5





          Just copy the mail to the other lead yourself, in fact add everybody who was at that meeting. It will seem more impartial that way.

          – Stig Hemmer
          12 hours ago
















        199















        But something I need to do. But what?




        Provide your feedback in a "constructive way", and be done about it. Not your place to make decisions.



        Mention something along the lines of




        "It was good to get a chance to evaluate the product X. As I see it:



        - Pros: 1, 2, 3



        - Cons: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, ......



        As it is evident from the analysis above, the list of cons overwhelms the list of pros, overall, I'd not be inclined to use this.



        There might be better alternative which could have a reverse result of the given assessment, please let me know if you'd need me to work on that."




        You were invited to the meeting (and the demo, I guess), and you have a fair idea of the ups and downs. You report them, solely based on the merits and demerits. Leave the decision making part to the people who are taking them.



        At a later point of time if it comes back in the form that "even-after-new-tool-why-productivity-is-down" argument, well, you'll have your "proof".






        share|improve this answer





















        • 100





          Since OP has already highlighted that they had a bias before the meeting even started; this might help them establish in their own mind if the product really is as bad as they think it is.

          – UKMonkey
          yesterday






        • 16





          +1, but I wish I could upvote more - namely because this answer covers the two most important aspects: Always put forth your assessment in a constructive, non-disparaging way and keep a paper (err, electron. err, you get the idea) trail.

          – OnoSendai
          yesterday











        • I would replace I see it with I found that and I would add a sentence somewhere saying something like `This list is not closed. I will update it with any new informations I collect. Any input is welcome." The idea is to get more informations from your coworkers and to show that you have an open mind.

          – aloisdg
          yesterday






        • 10





          Make sure you're comfortable with anyone in the company seeing anything you put in writing. It's very likely that the other team lead will see what you wrote, so write it in an impartial voice, presenting facts and not opinions.

          – David S.
          23 hours ago






        • 5





          Just copy the mail to the other lead yourself, in fact add everybody who was at that meeting. It will seem more impartial that way.

          – Stig Hemmer
          12 hours ago














        199












        199








        199








        But something I need to do. But what?




        Provide your feedback in a "constructive way", and be done about it. Not your place to make decisions.



        Mention something along the lines of




        "It was good to get a chance to evaluate the product X. As I see it:



        - Pros: 1, 2, 3



        - Cons: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, ......



        As it is evident from the analysis above, the list of cons overwhelms the list of pros, overall, I'd not be inclined to use this.



        There might be better alternative which could have a reverse result of the given assessment, please let me know if you'd need me to work on that."




        You were invited to the meeting (and the demo, I guess), and you have a fair idea of the ups and downs. You report them, solely based on the merits and demerits. Leave the decision making part to the people who are taking them.



        At a later point of time if it comes back in the form that "even-after-new-tool-why-productivity-is-down" argument, well, you'll have your "proof".






        share|improve this answer
















        But something I need to do. But what?




        Provide your feedback in a "constructive way", and be done about it. Not your place to make decisions.



        Mention something along the lines of




        "It was good to get a chance to evaluate the product X. As I see it:



        - Pros: 1, 2, 3



        - Cons: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, ......



        As it is evident from the analysis above, the list of cons overwhelms the list of pros, overall, I'd not be inclined to use this.



        There might be better alternative which could have a reverse result of the given assessment, please let me know if you'd need me to work on that."




        You were invited to the meeting (and the demo, I guess), and you have a fair idea of the ups and downs. You report them, solely based on the merits and demerits. Leave the decision making part to the people who are taking them.



        At a later point of time if it comes back in the form that "even-after-new-tool-why-productivity-is-down" argument, well, you'll have your "proof".







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 15 hours ago









        iBug

        10916




        10916










        answered yesterday









        Sourav GhoshSourav Ghosh

        5,11632040




        5,11632040








        • 100





          Since OP has already highlighted that they had a bias before the meeting even started; this might help them establish in their own mind if the product really is as bad as they think it is.

          – UKMonkey
          yesterday






        • 16





          +1, but I wish I could upvote more - namely because this answer covers the two most important aspects: Always put forth your assessment in a constructive, non-disparaging way and keep a paper (err, electron. err, you get the idea) trail.

          – OnoSendai
          yesterday











        • I would replace I see it with I found that and I would add a sentence somewhere saying something like `This list is not closed. I will update it with any new informations I collect. Any input is welcome." The idea is to get more informations from your coworkers and to show that you have an open mind.

          – aloisdg
          yesterday






        • 10





          Make sure you're comfortable with anyone in the company seeing anything you put in writing. It's very likely that the other team lead will see what you wrote, so write it in an impartial voice, presenting facts and not opinions.

          – David S.
          23 hours ago






        • 5





          Just copy the mail to the other lead yourself, in fact add everybody who was at that meeting. It will seem more impartial that way.

          – Stig Hemmer
          12 hours ago














        • 100





          Since OP has already highlighted that they had a bias before the meeting even started; this might help them establish in their own mind if the product really is as bad as they think it is.

          – UKMonkey
          yesterday






        • 16





          +1, but I wish I could upvote more - namely because this answer covers the two most important aspects: Always put forth your assessment in a constructive, non-disparaging way and keep a paper (err, electron. err, you get the idea) trail.

          – OnoSendai
          yesterday











        • I would replace I see it with I found that and I would add a sentence somewhere saying something like `This list is not closed. I will update it with any new informations I collect. Any input is welcome." The idea is to get more informations from your coworkers and to show that you have an open mind.

          – aloisdg
          yesterday






        • 10





          Make sure you're comfortable with anyone in the company seeing anything you put in writing. It's very likely that the other team lead will see what you wrote, so write it in an impartial voice, presenting facts and not opinions.

          – David S.
          23 hours ago






        • 5





          Just copy the mail to the other lead yourself, in fact add everybody who was at that meeting. It will seem more impartial that way.

          – Stig Hemmer
          12 hours ago








        100




        100





        Since OP has already highlighted that they had a bias before the meeting even started; this might help them establish in their own mind if the product really is as bad as they think it is.

        – UKMonkey
        yesterday





        Since OP has already highlighted that they had a bias before the meeting even started; this might help them establish in their own mind if the product really is as bad as they think it is.

        – UKMonkey
        yesterday




        16




        16





        +1, but I wish I could upvote more - namely because this answer covers the two most important aspects: Always put forth your assessment in a constructive, non-disparaging way and keep a paper (err, electron. err, you get the idea) trail.

        – OnoSendai
        yesterday





        +1, but I wish I could upvote more - namely because this answer covers the two most important aspects: Always put forth your assessment in a constructive, non-disparaging way and keep a paper (err, electron. err, you get the idea) trail.

        – OnoSendai
        yesterday













        I would replace I see it with I found that and I would add a sentence somewhere saying something like `This list is not closed. I will update it with any new informations I collect. Any input is welcome." The idea is to get more informations from your coworkers and to show that you have an open mind.

        – aloisdg
        yesterday





        I would replace I see it with I found that and I would add a sentence somewhere saying something like `This list is not closed. I will update it with any new informations I collect. Any input is welcome." The idea is to get more informations from your coworkers and to show that you have an open mind.

        – aloisdg
        yesterday




        10




        10





        Make sure you're comfortable with anyone in the company seeing anything you put in writing. It's very likely that the other team lead will see what you wrote, so write it in an impartial voice, presenting facts and not opinions.

        – David S.
        23 hours ago





        Make sure you're comfortable with anyone in the company seeing anything you put in writing. It's very likely that the other team lead will see what you wrote, so write it in an impartial voice, presenting facts and not opinions.

        – David S.
        23 hours ago




        5




        5





        Just copy the mail to the other lead yourself, in fact add everybody who was at that meeting. It will seem more impartial that way.

        – Stig Hemmer
        12 hours ago





        Just copy the mail to the other lead yourself, in fact add everybody who was at that meeting. It will seem more impartial that way.

        – Stig Hemmer
        12 hours ago













        51














        If you believe that a coworker is operating in cronyistic manner and playing fast and loose with company funds, yes, that is something you should raise with your manager.



        Saying the software is "crap" is not likely to get you much traction. You must quantify how it is substandard, and how the business will not get the appropriate value for money. Just as you are annoyed that your teamleader is not objective, you must be objective yourself.



        For example, you can contrast this "crap" software with competitor offerings. You could also estimate the value to the code base in saved man-hours.



        It's possible you were invited along to provide the illusion of objectivity. If your "teamleader" picked you because he knew you may be "cautious" to bring up this with your manager, and thus he gets implicit validation from your presence.



        "@GraySheep was there and he didn't raise any concerns"



        You don't want to be silent and have the truth to come out.






        share|improve this answer


























        • Thank you very much! However, saying that behind the back of the teamleader would look like a machination for me. Saying that with the knowledge of the teamlead (i.e. Cc:-ing the mail to him) would be an open conflict. Which is better?

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday






        • 6





          If you didn't want to go behind the back, or can't trust management, the other option is not conflict. I would probably address an email to your "team-leader" and CC your manager and start with: "Thank you for giving me an opportunity to assist the business in assessing the suitability of solution Y from company Z. I have summerised my assessment below, and also a brief assessment of other options. I'm always free to discuss any of the points if you wish." Then give a breakdown on the pros/cons of the solution, and follow up with pros/cons of competing solutions. (Maybe not in as much depth).

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 2





          I wouldn't mention, at all, that they are friends with the "team-leader", or even treat them specially. Be objective. If you wanted to go behind the back of the team-leader, you can raise concerns with the manager, but he will probably ask you to prepare a list of pros/cons, so maybe the letter above is a starting point.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 12





          Gregory's comment on "saying it is crap won't get you far" remains true even if the software is, indeed, a steaming pile of crap

          – corsiKa
          yesterday






        • 1





          @GregroyCurrie I explained the facts in a short mail to the boss. I didn't use the word "crap" and any negative. I just explained that it wouldn't help and we should still use technology X, first because it is what the customer wants, and second because it is the common technology of the industry and the devs simply should learn it. No answer arrived, but I am sure that the boss read it.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday
















        51














        If you believe that a coworker is operating in cronyistic manner and playing fast and loose with company funds, yes, that is something you should raise with your manager.



        Saying the software is "crap" is not likely to get you much traction. You must quantify how it is substandard, and how the business will not get the appropriate value for money. Just as you are annoyed that your teamleader is not objective, you must be objective yourself.



        For example, you can contrast this "crap" software with competitor offerings. You could also estimate the value to the code base in saved man-hours.



        It's possible you were invited along to provide the illusion of objectivity. If your "teamleader" picked you because he knew you may be "cautious" to bring up this with your manager, and thus he gets implicit validation from your presence.



        "@GraySheep was there and he didn't raise any concerns"



        You don't want to be silent and have the truth to come out.






        share|improve this answer


























        • Thank you very much! However, saying that behind the back of the teamleader would look like a machination for me. Saying that with the knowledge of the teamlead (i.e. Cc:-ing the mail to him) would be an open conflict. Which is better?

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday






        • 6





          If you didn't want to go behind the back, or can't trust management, the other option is not conflict. I would probably address an email to your "team-leader" and CC your manager and start with: "Thank you for giving me an opportunity to assist the business in assessing the suitability of solution Y from company Z. I have summerised my assessment below, and also a brief assessment of other options. I'm always free to discuss any of the points if you wish." Then give a breakdown on the pros/cons of the solution, and follow up with pros/cons of competing solutions. (Maybe not in as much depth).

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 2





          I wouldn't mention, at all, that they are friends with the "team-leader", or even treat them specially. Be objective. If you wanted to go behind the back of the team-leader, you can raise concerns with the manager, but he will probably ask you to prepare a list of pros/cons, so maybe the letter above is a starting point.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 12





          Gregory's comment on "saying it is crap won't get you far" remains true even if the software is, indeed, a steaming pile of crap

          – corsiKa
          yesterday






        • 1





          @GregroyCurrie I explained the facts in a short mail to the boss. I didn't use the word "crap" and any negative. I just explained that it wouldn't help and we should still use technology X, first because it is what the customer wants, and second because it is the common technology of the industry and the devs simply should learn it. No answer arrived, but I am sure that the boss read it.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday














        51












        51








        51







        If you believe that a coworker is operating in cronyistic manner and playing fast and loose with company funds, yes, that is something you should raise with your manager.



        Saying the software is "crap" is not likely to get you much traction. You must quantify how it is substandard, and how the business will not get the appropriate value for money. Just as you are annoyed that your teamleader is not objective, you must be objective yourself.



        For example, you can contrast this "crap" software with competitor offerings. You could also estimate the value to the code base in saved man-hours.



        It's possible you were invited along to provide the illusion of objectivity. If your "teamleader" picked you because he knew you may be "cautious" to bring up this with your manager, and thus he gets implicit validation from your presence.



        "@GraySheep was there and he didn't raise any concerns"



        You don't want to be silent and have the truth to come out.






        share|improve this answer















        If you believe that a coworker is operating in cronyistic manner and playing fast and loose with company funds, yes, that is something you should raise with your manager.



        Saying the software is "crap" is not likely to get you much traction. You must quantify how it is substandard, and how the business will not get the appropriate value for money. Just as you are annoyed that your teamleader is not objective, you must be objective yourself.



        For example, you can contrast this "crap" software with competitor offerings. You could also estimate the value to the code base in saved man-hours.



        It's possible you were invited along to provide the illusion of objectivity. If your "teamleader" picked you because he knew you may be "cautious" to bring up this with your manager, and thus he gets implicit validation from your presence.



        "@GraySheep was there and he didn't raise any concerns"



        You don't want to be silent and have the truth to come out.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited yesterday

























        answered yesterday









        Gregory CurrieGregory Currie

        1,3871614




        1,3871614













        • Thank you very much! However, saying that behind the back of the teamleader would look like a machination for me. Saying that with the knowledge of the teamlead (i.e. Cc:-ing the mail to him) would be an open conflict. Which is better?

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday






        • 6





          If you didn't want to go behind the back, or can't trust management, the other option is not conflict. I would probably address an email to your "team-leader" and CC your manager and start with: "Thank you for giving me an opportunity to assist the business in assessing the suitability of solution Y from company Z. I have summerised my assessment below, and also a brief assessment of other options. I'm always free to discuss any of the points if you wish." Then give a breakdown on the pros/cons of the solution, and follow up with pros/cons of competing solutions. (Maybe not in as much depth).

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 2





          I wouldn't mention, at all, that they are friends with the "team-leader", or even treat them specially. Be objective. If you wanted to go behind the back of the team-leader, you can raise concerns with the manager, but he will probably ask you to prepare a list of pros/cons, so maybe the letter above is a starting point.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 12





          Gregory's comment on "saying it is crap won't get you far" remains true even if the software is, indeed, a steaming pile of crap

          – corsiKa
          yesterday






        • 1





          @GregroyCurrie I explained the facts in a short mail to the boss. I didn't use the word "crap" and any negative. I just explained that it wouldn't help and we should still use technology X, first because it is what the customer wants, and second because it is the common technology of the industry and the devs simply should learn it. No answer arrived, but I am sure that the boss read it.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday



















        • Thank you very much! However, saying that behind the back of the teamleader would look like a machination for me. Saying that with the knowledge of the teamlead (i.e. Cc:-ing the mail to him) would be an open conflict. Which is better?

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday






        • 6





          If you didn't want to go behind the back, or can't trust management, the other option is not conflict. I would probably address an email to your "team-leader" and CC your manager and start with: "Thank you for giving me an opportunity to assist the business in assessing the suitability of solution Y from company Z. I have summerised my assessment below, and also a brief assessment of other options. I'm always free to discuss any of the points if you wish." Then give a breakdown on the pros/cons of the solution, and follow up with pros/cons of competing solutions. (Maybe not in as much depth).

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 2





          I wouldn't mention, at all, that they are friends with the "team-leader", or even treat them specially. Be objective. If you wanted to go behind the back of the team-leader, you can raise concerns with the manager, but he will probably ask you to prepare a list of pros/cons, so maybe the letter above is a starting point.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 12





          Gregory's comment on "saying it is crap won't get you far" remains true even if the software is, indeed, a steaming pile of crap

          – corsiKa
          yesterday






        • 1





          @GregroyCurrie I explained the facts in a short mail to the boss. I didn't use the word "crap" and any negative. I just explained that it wouldn't help and we should still use technology X, first because it is what the customer wants, and second because it is the common technology of the industry and the devs simply should learn it. No answer arrived, but I am sure that the boss read it.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday

















        Thank you very much! However, saying that behind the back of the teamleader would look like a machination for me. Saying that with the knowledge of the teamlead (i.e. Cc:-ing the mail to him) would be an open conflict. Which is better?

        – Gray Sheep
        yesterday





        Thank you very much! However, saying that behind the back of the teamleader would look like a machination for me. Saying that with the knowledge of the teamlead (i.e. Cc:-ing the mail to him) would be an open conflict. Which is better?

        – Gray Sheep
        yesterday




        6




        6





        If you didn't want to go behind the back, or can't trust management, the other option is not conflict. I would probably address an email to your "team-leader" and CC your manager and start with: "Thank you for giving me an opportunity to assist the business in assessing the suitability of solution Y from company Z. I have summerised my assessment below, and also a brief assessment of other options. I'm always free to discuss any of the points if you wish." Then give a breakdown on the pros/cons of the solution, and follow up with pros/cons of competing solutions. (Maybe not in as much depth).

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday





        If you didn't want to go behind the back, or can't trust management, the other option is not conflict. I would probably address an email to your "team-leader" and CC your manager and start with: "Thank you for giving me an opportunity to assist the business in assessing the suitability of solution Y from company Z. I have summerised my assessment below, and also a brief assessment of other options. I'm always free to discuss any of the points if you wish." Then give a breakdown on the pros/cons of the solution, and follow up with pros/cons of competing solutions. (Maybe not in as much depth).

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday




        2




        2





        I wouldn't mention, at all, that they are friends with the "team-leader", or even treat them specially. Be objective. If you wanted to go behind the back of the team-leader, you can raise concerns with the manager, but he will probably ask you to prepare a list of pros/cons, so maybe the letter above is a starting point.

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday





        I wouldn't mention, at all, that they are friends with the "team-leader", or even treat them specially. Be objective. If you wanted to go behind the back of the team-leader, you can raise concerns with the manager, but he will probably ask you to prepare a list of pros/cons, so maybe the letter above is a starting point.

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday




        12




        12





        Gregory's comment on "saying it is crap won't get you far" remains true even if the software is, indeed, a steaming pile of crap

        – corsiKa
        yesterday





        Gregory's comment on "saying it is crap won't get you far" remains true even if the software is, indeed, a steaming pile of crap

        – corsiKa
        yesterday




        1




        1





        @GregroyCurrie I explained the facts in a short mail to the boss. I didn't use the word "crap" and any negative. I just explained that it wouldn't help and we should still use technology X, first because it is what the customer wants, and second because it is the common technology of the industry and the devs simply should learn it. No answer arrived, but I am sure that the boss read it.

        – Gray Sheep
        yesterday





        @GregroyCurrie I explained the facts in a short mail to the boss. I didn't use the word "crap" and any negative. I just explained that it wouldn't help and we should still use technology X, first because it is what the customer wants, and second because it is the common technology of the industry and the devs simply should learn it. No answer arrived, but I am sure that the boss read it.

        – Gray Sheep
        yesterday











        14














        (Good) management is influenced by logic, not name-calling. Reading your OP, you have mentioned that you think this software is crap, but you didn't say how or why. If I was a manager and I read your OP, I would think you were just a troublemaker, and you would lose face with me. If this is how you wrote the email to management, then it's a good thing you didn't send it.



        What you want to do is lay out, plainly and objectively, what your objections are. Maybe you have a use case that this software doesn't satisfy? Maybe the software is too slow or doesn't meet other benchmarks? Maybe the support isn't there for it, so technical issues that arise would be hard to resolve? Maybe it's just plain buggy? Whatever the problems are, explain them in a clear and detailed way to management. Don't use words like "crap" or "horrible" or whatever; those are weasel words and don't mean anything. Outline your concerns, and let your concerns speak for themselves.






        share|improve this answer
























        • Thanks. This is what I did. It probably won't have any effect, we will see on the long-term, what happens.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday
















        14














        (Good) management is influenced by logic, not name-calling. Reading your OP, you have mentioned that you think this software is crap, but you didn't say how or why. If I was a manager and I read your OP, I would think you were just a troublemaker, and you would lose face with me. If this is how you wrote the email to management, then it's a good thing you didn't send it.



        What you want to do is lay out, plainly and objectively, what your objections are. Maybe you have a use case that this software doesn't satisfy? Maybe the software is too slow or doesn't meet other benchmarks? Maybe the support isn't there for it, so technical issues that arise would be hard to resolve? Maybe it's just plain buggy? Whatever the problems are, explain them in a clear and detailed way to management. Don't use words like "crap" or "horrible" or whatever; those are weasel words and don't mean anything. Outline your concerns, and let your concerns speak for themselves.






        share|improve this answer
























        • Thanks. This is what I did. It probably won't have any effect, we will see on the long-term, what happens.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday














        14












        14








        14







        (Good) management is influenced by logic, not name-calling. Reading your OP, you have mentioned that you think this software is crap, but you didn't say how or why. If I was a manager and I read your OP, I would think you were just a troublemaker, and you would lose face with me. If this is how you wrote the email to management, then it's a good thing you didn't send it.



        What you want to do is lay out, plainly and objectively, what your objections are. Maybe you have a use case that this software doesn't satisfy? Maybe the software is too slow or doesn't meet other benchmarks? Maybe the support isn't there for it, so technical issues that arise would be hard to resolve? Maybe it's just plain buggy? Whatever the problems are, explain them in a clear and detailed way to management. Don't use words like "crap" or "horrible" or whatever; those are weasel words and don't mean anything. Outline your concerns, and let your concerns speak for themselves.






        share|improve this answer













        (Good) management is influenced by logic, not name-calling. Reading your OP, you have mentioned that you think this software is crap, but you didn't say how or why. If I was a manager and I read your OP, I would think you were just a troublemaker, and you would lose face with me. If this is how you wrote the email to management, then it's a good thing you didn't send it.



        What you want to do is lay out, plainly and objectively, what your objections are. Maybe you have a use case that this software doesn't satisfy? Maybe the software is too slow or doesn't meet other benchmarks? Maybe the support isn't there for it, so technical issues that arise would be hard to resolve? Maybe it's just plain buggy? Whatever the problems are, explain them in a clear and detailed way to management. Don't use words like "crap" or "horrible" or whatever; those are weasel words and don't mean anything. Outline your concerns, and let your concerns speak for themselves.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered yesterday









        Ertai87Ertai87

        10.4k21230




        10.4k21230













        • Thanks. This is what I did. It probably won't have any effect, we will see on the long-term, what happens.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday



















        • Thanks. This is what I did. It probably won't have any effect, we will see on the long-term, what happens.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday

















        Thanks. This is what I did. It probably won't have any effect, we will see on the long-term, what happens.

        – Gray Sheep
        yesterday





        Thanks. This is what I did. It probably won't have any effect, we will see on the long-term, what happens.

        – Gray Sheep
        yesterday











        10















        But something I need to do. But what?




        First thing constructive to do is to check your motivations carefully, why do you need to do something? Why do you want to engage in a dispute that you think you will lose.



        If you're asked to analyse a tool, do so, give the pro's and cons without bias. Don't create problems without complete analysis or reason.






        share|improve this answer





















        • 7





          @GraySheep Those are two personal reasons. You need to make this about the business.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 7





          @GraySheep 1) Is being cross-platform important to your business? 2) Is free software important to your business? 3) What does this even mean?

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 3





          @GregroyCurrie Yes, because development runs in a mixed environment (windows + mac + linux), servers are mainly linuxes. In most of our projects, the customers get access also to the source code.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday






        • 8





          @GraySheep This all seems very personal for you. You need to adjust your mentality and shift towards acting (or at least seen to be acting) in the best interest of your employer.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 4





          It sounds to me like you're just taking your co-worker's proposal personally because it might make you a redundant resource. Maybe the business simply values getting rid DevOps resources more than the other issues you suggest that the proposal will cause.

          – Rich
          23 hours ago


















        10















        But something I need to do. But what?




        First thing constructive to do is to check your motivations carefully, why do you need to do something? Why do you want to engage in a dispute that you think you will lose.



        If you're asked to analyse a tool, do so, give the pro's and cons without bias. Don't create problems without complete analysis or reason.






        share|improve this answer





















        • 7





          @GraySheep Those are two personal reasons. You need to make this about the business.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 7





          @GraySheep 1) Is being cross-platform important to your business? 2) Is free software important to your business? 3) What does this even mean?

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 3





          @GregroyCurrie Yes, because development runs in a mixed environment (windows + mac + linux), servers are mainly linuxes. In most of our projects, the customers get access also to the source code.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday






        • 8





          @GraySheep This all seems very personal for you. You need to adjust your mentality and shift towards acting (or at least seen to be acting) in the best interest of your employer.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 4





          It sounds to me like you're just taking your co-worker's proposal personally because it might make you a redundant resource. Maybe the business simply values getting rid DevOps resources more than the other issues you suggest that the proposal will cause.

          – Rich
          23 hours ago
















        10












        10








        10








        But something I need to do. But what?




        First thing constructive to do is to check your motivations carefully, why do you need to do something? Why do you want to engage in a dispute that you think you will lose.



        If you're asked to analyse a tool, do so, give the pro's and cons without bias. Don't create problems without complete analysis or reason.






        share|improve this answer
















        But something I need to do. But what?




        First thing constructive to do is to check your motivations carefully, why do you need to do something? Why do you want to engage in a dispute that you think you will lose.



        If you're asked to analyse a tool, do so, give the pro's and cons without bias. Don't create problems without complete analysis or reason.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited yesterday

























        answered yesterday









        KilisiKilisi

        122k70268468




        122k70268468








        • 7





          @GraySheep Those are two personal reasons. You need to make this about the business.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 7





          @GraySheep 1) Is being cross-platform important to your business? 2) Is free software important to your business? 3) What does this even mean?

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 3





          @GregroyCurrie Yes, because development runs in a mixed environment (windows + mac + linux), servers are mainly linuxes. In most of our projects, the customers get access also to the source code.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday






        • 8





          @GraySheep This all seems very personal for you. You need to adjust your mentality and shift towards acting (or at least seen to be acting) in the best interest of your employer.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 4





          It sounds to me like you're just taking your co-worker's proposal personally because it might make you a redundant resource. Maybe the business simply values getting rid DevOps resources more than the other issues you suggest that the proposal will cause.

          – Rich
          23 hours ago
















        • 7





          @GraySheep Those are two personal reasons. You need to make this about the business.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 7





          @GraySheep 1) Is being cross-platform important to your business? 2) Is free software important to your business? 3) What does this even mean?

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 3





          @GregroyCurrie Yes, because development runs in a mixed environment (windows + mac + linux), servers are mainly linuxes. In most of our projects, the customers get access also to the source code.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday






        • 8





          @GraySheep This all seems very personal for you. You need to adjust your mentality and shift towards acting (or at least seen to be acting) in the best interest of your employer.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 4





          It sounds to me like you're just taking your co-worker's proposal personally because it might make you a redundant resource. Maybe the business simply values getting rid DevOps resources more than the other issues you suggest that the proposal will cause.

          – Rich
          23 hours ago










        7




        7





        @GraySheep Those are two personal reasons. You need to make this about the business.

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday





        @GraySheep Those are two personal reasons. You need to make this about the business.

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday




        7




        7





        @GraySheep 1) Is being cross-platform important to your business? 2) Is free software important to your business? 3) What does this even mean?

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday





        @GraySheep 1) Is being cross-platform important to your business? 2) Is free software important to your business? 3) What does this even mean?

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday




        3




        3





        @GregroyCurrie Yes, because development runs in a mixed environment (windows + mac + linux), servers are mainly linuxes. In most of our projects, the customers get access also to the source code.

        – Gray Sheep
        yesterday





        @GregroyCurrie Yes, because development runs in a mixed environment (windows + mac + linux), servers are mainly linuxes. In most of our projects, the customers get access also to the source code.

        – Gray Sheep
        yesterday




        8




        8





        @GraySheep This all seems very personal for you. You need to adjust your mentality and shift towards acting (or at least seen to be acting) in the best interest of your employer.

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday





        @GraySheep This all seems very personal for you. You need to adjust your mentality and shift towards acting (or at least seen to be acting) in the best interest of your employer.

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday




        4




        4





        It sounds to me like you're just taking your co-worker's proposal personally because it might make you a redundant resource. Maybe the business simply values getting rid DevOps resources more than the other issues you suggest that the proposal will cause.

        – Rich
        23 hours ago







        It sounds to me like you're just taking your co-worker's proposal personally because it might make you a redundant resource. Maybe the business simply values getting rid DevOps resources more than the other issues you suggest that the proposal will cause.

        – Rich
        23 hours ago













        7














        Rewrite the letter you were going to send your boss.



        Don't assume bad intentions from your coworker.



        Be polite. Be specific. Drop the word "crap". Give your honest but detailed evaluation and be able to back up every point you raise, and ideally put an example of each point in the letter.



        Boss,

        I've reviewed the code being offered and I view it as sub-standard for the following reasons...

        1) Reason #1. Reason for thinking this is a problem. Example.



        (Sample) 1) There are no comments in the code. They have X lines of code. I did a grep search and found a grand total of Y comment lines. For perspective our current code base has...






        share|improve this answer



















        • 2





          Point taken, though some people don't consider comment line % a great indicator of code quality :)

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday











        • @GregroyCurrie I took over a code base that had 100k+ lines of code which had a total of 7 comment lines. Those 7 lines of comments were worthless. There was no external documentation at all. He's got strong opinions, hopefully there are strong reasons.

          – Dark Matter
          yesterday








        • 3





          If 7 lines of comments were worthless, couldn't 99k of comments be worthless :) I agree that good code has meaningful comments though.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 1





          @TimB No argument from me. (Though some languages make it easier to write clear code, compared to others).

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday








        • 3





          @Dark Matter: On the other end of the scale, I've seen profusely commented code (often done with automatic "documentation" generators) in which the vast majority of comments are of the "i++; /* increment i */" sort.

          – jamesqf
          yesterday
















        7














        Rewrite the letter you were going to send your boss.



        Don't assume bad intentions from your coworker.



        Be polite. Be specific. Drop the word "crap". Give your honest but detailed evaluation and be able to back up every point you raise, and ideally put an example of each point in the letter.



        Boss,

        I've reviewed the code being offered and I view it as sub-standard for the following reasons...

        1) Reason #1. Reason for thinking this is a problem. Example.



        (Sample) 1) There are no comments in the code. They have X lines of code. I did a grep search and found a grand total of Y comment lines. For perspective our current code base has...






        share|improve this answer



















        • 2





          Point taken, though some people don't consider comment line % a great indicator of code quality :)

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday











        • @GregroyCurrie I took over a code base that had 100k+ lines of code which had a total of 7 comment lines. Those 7 lines of comments were worthless. There was no external documentation at all. He's got strong opinions, hopefully there are strong reasons.

          – Dark Matter
          yesterday








        • 3





          If 7 lines of comments were worthless, couldn't 99k of comments be worthless :) I agree that good code has meaningful comments though.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 1





          @TimB No argument from me. (Though some languages make it easier to write clear code, compared to others).

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday








        • 3





          @Dark Matter: On the other end of the scale, I've seen profusely commented code (often done with automatic "documentation" generators) in which the vast majority of comments are of the "i++; /* increment i */" sort.

          – jamesqf
          yesterday














        7












        7








        7







        Rewrite the letter you were going to send your boss.



        Don't assume bad intentions from your coworker.



        Be polite. Be specific. Drop the word "crap". Give your honest but detailed evaluation and be able to back up every point you raise, and ideally put an example of each point in the letter.



        Boss,

        I've reviewed the code being offered and I view it as sub-standard for the following reasons...

        1) Reason #1. Reason for thinking this is a problem. Example.



        (Sample) 1) There are no comments in the code. They have X lines of code. I did a grep search and found a grand total of Y comment lines. For perspective our current code base has...






        share|improve this answer













        Rewrite the letter you were going to send your boss.



        Don't assume bad intentions from your coworker.



        Be polite. Be specific. Drop the word "crap". Give your honest but detailed evaluation and be able to back up every point you raise, and ideally put an example of each point in the letter.



        Boss,

        I've reviewed the code being offered and I view it as sub-standard for the following reasons...

        1) Reason #1. Reason for thinking this is a problem. Example.



        (Sample) 1) There are no comments in the code. They have X lines of code. I did a grep search and found a grand total of Y comment lines. For perspective our current code base has...







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered yesterday









        Dark Matter Dark Matter

        4,7111920




        4,7111920








        • 2





          Point taken, though some people don't consider comment line % a great indicator of code quality :)

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday











        • @GregroyCurrie I took over a code base that had 100k+ lines of code which had a total of 7 comment lines. Those 7 lines of comments were worthless. There was no external documentation at all. He's got strong opinions, hopefully there are strong reasons.

          – Dark Matter
          yesterday








        • 3





          If 7 lines of comments were worthless, couldn't 99k of comments be worthless :) I agree that good code has meaningful comments though.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 1





          @TimB No argument from me. (Though some languages make it easier to write clear code, compared to others).

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday








        • 3





          @Dark Matter: On the other end of the scale, I've seen profusely commented code (often done with automatic "documentation" generators) in which the vast majority of comments are of the "i++; /* increment i */" sort.

          – jamesqf
          yesterday














        • 2





          Point taken, though some people don't consider comment line % a great indicator of code quality :)

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday











        • @GregroyCurrie I took over a code base that had 100k+ lines of code which had a total of 7 comment lines. Those 7 lines of comments were worthless. There was no external documentation at all. He's got strong opinions, hopefully there are strong reasons.

          – Dark Matter
          yesterday








        • 3





          If 7 lines of comments were worthless, couldn't 99k of comments be worthless :) I agree that good code has meaningful comments though.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 1





          @TimB No argument from me. (Though some languages make it easier to write clear code, compared to others).

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday








        • 3





          @Dark Matter: On the other end of the scale, I've seen profusely commented code (often done with automatic "documentation" generators) in which the vast majority of comments are of the "i++; /* increment i */" sort.

          – jamesqf
          yesterday








        2




        2





        Point taken, though some people don't consider comment line % a great indicator of code quality :)

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday





        Point taken, though some people don't consider comment line % a great indicator of code quality :)

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday













        @GregroyCurrie I took over a code base that had 100k+ lines of code which had a total of 7 comment lines. Those 7 lines of comments were worthless. There was no external documentation at all. He's got strong opinions, hopefully there are strong reasons.

        – Dark Matter
        yesterday







        @GregroyCurrie I took over a code base that had 100k+ lines of code which had a total of 7 comment lines. Those 7 lines of comments were worthless. There was no external documentation at all. He's got strong opinions, hopefully there are strong reasons.

        – Dark Matter
        yesterday






        3




        3





        If 7 lines of comments were worthless, couldn't 99k of comments be worthless :) I agree that good code has meaningful comments though.

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday





        If 7 lines of comments were worthless, couldn't 99k of comments be worthless :) I agree that good code has meaningful comments though.

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday




        1




        1





        @TimB No argument from me. (Though some languages make it easier to write clear code, compared to others).

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday







        @TimB No argument from me. (Though some languages make it easier to write clear code, compared to others).

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday






        3




        3





        @Dark Matter: On the other end of the scale, I've seen profusely commented code (often done with automatic "documentation" generators) in which the vast majority of comments are of the "i++; /* increment i */" sort.

        – jamesqf
        yesterday





        @Dark Matter: On the other end of the scale, I've seen profusely commented code (often done with automatic "documentation" generators) in which the vast majority of comments are of the "i++; /* increment i */" sort.

        – jamesqf
        yesterday











        3














        You call this software "crap" a couple of times, so you clearly know a thing or two about what it does, and what your company actually needs. Write up a document (email) outlining your concerns about the features / functionality, and send it to your boss.



        I would suggest also offering alternatives, such that you're not simply coming across as jealous, or negative. Make a table analyzing features, pricing, etc.




        Some options that don't share the same risks are X, and Y. The pricing for X is a little higher than the option proposed by John, but offers these advantages: ...




        At the very end of the email you may include a phrase along the lines of:




        As you can see, there are solid reasons why we should continue looking for a product to fill this niche. Furthermore I fear that John's decision to recommend this software may be influenced by the fact that a close personal friend of his created it.




        You may want to hold that tidbit of information in reserve just in case you have to escalate, however.






        share|improve this answer
























        • Yes, I know far more enough from this software to call it a crap. Its only advantage is that it helps the developers to avoid learning technology X, what is a quite common technology in the industry, but somehow they've solved to avoid to learn it. Now the teamlead came with this software, which avoids them to learn it, as a side effect 1) it helps him to exterminate me 2) it will lead to malpractice on the long-term. I see these, but now the word of the teamlead + the developers standing with him is against mine. Surely mine will be more weak.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday


















        3














        You call this software "crap" a couple of times, so you clearly know a thing or two about what it does, and what your company actually needs. Write up a document (email) outlining your concerns about the features / functionality, and send it to your boss.



        I would suggest also offering alternatives, such that you're not simply coming across as jealous, or negative. Make a table analyzing features, pricing, etc.




        Some options that don't share the same risks are X, and Y. The pricing for X is a little higher than the option proposed by John, but offers these advantages: ...




        At the very end of the email you may include a phrase along the lines of:




        As you can see, there are solid reasons why we should continue looking for a product to fill this niche. Furthermore I fear that John's decision to recommend this software may be influenced by the fact that a close personal friend of his created it.




        You may want to hold that tidbit of information in reserve just in case you have to escalate, however.






        share|improve this answer
























        • Yes, I know far more enough from this software to call it a crap. Its only advantage is that it helps the developers to avoid learning technology X, what is a quite common technology in the industry, but somehow they've solved to avoid to learn it. Now the teamlead came with this software, which avoids them to learn it, as a side effect 1) it helps him to exterminate me 2) it will lead to malpractice on the long-term. I see these, but now the word of the teamlead + the developers standing with him is against mine. Surely mine will be more weak.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday
















        3












        3








        3







        You call this software "crap" a couple of times, so you clearly know a thing or two about what it does, and what your company actually needs. Write up a document (email) outlining your concerns about the features / functionality, and send it to your boss.



        I would suggest also offering alternatives, such that you're not simply coming across as jealous, or negative. Make a table analyzing features, pricing, etc.




        Some options that don't share the same risks are X, and Y. The pricing for X is a little higher than the option proposed by John, but offers these advantages: ...




        At the very end of the email you may include a phrase along the lines of:




        As you can see, there are solid reasons why we should continue looking for a product to fill this niche. Furthermore I fear that John's decision to recommend this software may be influenced by the fact that a close personal friend of his created it.




        You may want to hold that tidbit of information in reserve just in case you have to escalate, however.






        share|improve this answer













        You call this software "crap" a couple of times, so you clearly know a thing or two about what it does, and what your company actually needs. Write up a document (email) outlining your concerns about the features / functionality, and send it to your boss.



        I would suggest also offering alternatives, such that you're not simply coming across as jealous, or negative. Make a table analyzing features, pricing, etc.




        Some options that don't share the same risks are X, and Y. The pricing for X is a little higher than the option proposed by John, but offers these advantages: ...




        At the very end of the email you may include a phrase along the lines of:




        As you can see, there are solid reasons why we should continue looking for a product to fill this niche. Furthermore I fear that John's decision to recommend this software may be influenced by the fact that a close personal friend of his created it.




        You may want to hold that tidbit of information in reserve just in case you have to escalate, however.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered yesterday









        AndreiROMAndreiROM

        45.9k23108178




        45.9k23108178













        • Yes, I know far more enough from this software to call it a crap. Its only advantage is that it helps the developers to avoid learning technology X, what is a quite common technology in the industry, but somehow they've solved to avoid to learn it. Now the teamlead came with this software, which avoids them to learn it, as a side effect 1) it helps him to exterminate me 2) it will lead to malpractice on the long-term. I see these, but now the word of the teamlead + the developers standing with him is against mine. Surely mine will be more weak.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday





















        • Yes, I know far more enough from this software to call it a crap. Its only advantage is that it helps the developers to avoid learning technology X, what is a quite common technology in the industry, but somehow they've solved to avoid to learn it. Now the teamlead came with this software, which avoids them to learn it, as a side effect 1) it helps him to exterminate me 2) it will lead to malpractice on the long-term. I see these, but now the word of the teamlead + the developers standing with him is against mine. Surely mine will be more weak.

          – Gray Sheep
          yesterday



















        Yes, I know far more enough from this software to call it a crap. Its only advantage is that it helps the developers to avoid learning technology X, what is a quite common technology in the industry, but somehow they've solved to avoid to learn it. Now the teamlead came with this software, which avoids them to learn it, as a side effect 1) it helps him to exterminate me 2) it will lead to malpractice on the long-term. I see these, but now the word of the teamlead + the developers standing with him is against mine. Surely mine will be more weak.

        – Gray Sheep
        yesterday







        Yes, I know far more enough from this software to call it a crap. Its only advantage is that it helps the developers to avoid learning technology X, what is a quite common technology in the industry, but somehow they've solved to avoid to learn it. Now the teamlead came with this software, which avoids them to learn it, as a side effect 1) it helps him to exterminate me 2) it will lead to malpractice on the long-term. I see these, but now the word of the teamlead + the developers standing with him is against mine. Surely mine will be more weak.

        – Gray Sheep
        yesterday













        3














        Talk about it with your colleague/unofficial teamleader.



        You think he knows your opinion about the topic but it may not be this way.



        He invited you to the meeting which means he values your opinion. (I assume here that he didn't invite you to taunt you because your high opinion on the good working climate)



        Tell him directly that the software he wants to introduce would, in your opinion, hinder further development of the project.
        The cause for his support for the software in question might be personal, which he should overthink.
        If this isn't the case ask him to explain to you why he thinks the software will improve the development.



        A normal discussion about work related topic which does affect your work shouldn't cause danger to your employment or social status in your company.
        It might even improve because you show compassion for your work.



        But most importantly: You do it professional.



        EDIT1: If your colleague does not show any kind of good reasoning talk about it with your manager afterwards. Maybe propose a three-way discussion to get the topic dealt with fast.






        share|improve this answer










        New contributor




        GittingGud is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.
















        • 4





          He could also have been invited to give the illusion of objectivity.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 1





          Nevertheless the fact that OP was invited to the meeting means that the OP does have competence in the topic and is therefore qualified/entitled to be part of the decision. And because the co-worker cannot end the illusion now means that he can do nothing about OP expressing his honest and professional opinion.

          – GittingGud
          yesterday






        • 1





          I don't think that's necessarily true, though it is probably true in this instance. But I agree fully that he should make the most of this "illusion".

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday
















        3














        Talk about it with your colleague/unofficial teamleader.



        You think he knows your opinion about the topic but it may not be this way.



        He invited you to the meeting which means he values your opinion. (I assume here that he didn't invite you to taunt you because your high opinion on the good working climate)



        Tell him directly that the software he wants to introduce would, in your opinion, hinder further development of the project.
        The cause for his support for the software in question might be personal, which he should overthink.
        If this isn't the case ask him to explain to you why he thinks the software will improve the development.



        A normal discussion about work related topic which does affect your work shouldn't cause danger to your employment or social status in your company.
        It might even improve because you show compassion for your work.



        But most importantly: You do it professional.



        EDIT1: If your colleague does not show any kind of good reasoning talk about it with your manager afterwards. Maybe propose a three-way discussion to get the topic dealt with fast.






        share|improve this answer










        New contributor




        GittingGud is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.
















        • 4





          He could also have been invited to give the illusion of objectivity.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 1





          Nevertheless the fact that OP was invited to the meeting means that the OP does have competence in the topic and is therefore qualified/entitled to be part of the decision. And because the co-worker cannot end the illusion now means that he can do nothing about OP expressing his honest and professional opinion.

          – GittingGud
          yesterday






        • 1





          I don't think that's necessarily true, though it is probably true in this instance. But I agree fully that he should make the most of this "illusion".

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday














        3












        3








        3







        Talk about it with your colleague/unofficial teamleader.



        You think he knows your opinion about the topic but it may not be this way.



        He invited you to the meeting which means he values your opinion. (I assume here that he didn't invite you to taunt you because your high opinion on the good working climate)



        Tell him directly that the software he wants to introduce would, in your opinion, hinder further development of the project.
        The cause for his support for the software in question might be personal, which he should overthink.
        If this isn't the case ask him to explain to you why he thinks the software will improve the development.



        A normal discussion about work related topic which does affect your work shouldn't cause danger to your employment or social status in your company.
        It might even improve because you show compassion for your work.



        But most importantly: You do it professional.



        EDIT1: If your colleague does not show any kind of good reasoning talk about it with your manager afterwards. Maybe propose a three-way discussion to get the topic dealt with fast.






        share|improve this answer










        New contributor




        GittingGud is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.










        Talk about it with your colleague/unofficial teamleader.



        You think he knows your opinion about the topic but it may not be this way.



        He invited you to the meeting which means he values your opinion. (I assume here that he didn't invite you to taunt you because your high opinion on the good working climate)



        Tell him directly that the software he wants to introduce would, in your opinion, hinder further development of the project.
        The cause for his support for the software in question might be personal, which he should overthink.
        If this isn't the case ask him to explain to you why he thinks the software will improve the development.



        A normal discussion about work related topic which does affect your work shouldn't cause danger to your employment or social status in your company.
        It might even improve because you show compassion for your work.



        But most importantly: You do it professional.



        EDIT1: If your colleague does not show any kind of good reasoning talk about it with your manager afterwards. Maybe propose a three-way discussion to get the topic dealt with fast.







        share|improve this answer










        New contributor




        GittingGud is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited yesterday





















        New contributor




        GittingGud is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        answered yesterday









        GittingGudGittingGud

        1263




        1263




        New contributor




        GittingGud is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.





        New contributor





        GittingGud is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        GittingGud is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.








        • 4





          He could also have been invited to give the illusion of objectivity.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 1





          Nevertheless the fact that OP was invited to the meeting means that the OP does have competence in the topic and is therefore qualified/entitled to be part of the decision. And because the co-worker cannot end the illusion now means that he can do nothing about OP expressing his honest and professional opinion.

          – GittingGud
          yesterday






        • 1





          I don't think that's necessarily true, though it is probably true in this instance. But I agree fully that he should make the most of this "illusion".

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday














        • 4





          He could also have been invited to give the illusion of objectivity.

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday






        • 1





          Nevertheless the fact that OP was invited to the meeting means that the OP does have competence in the topic and is therefore qualified/entitled to be part of the decision. And because the co-worker cannot end the illusion now means that he can do nothing about OP expressing his honest and professional opinion.

          – GittingGud
          yesterday






        • 1





          I don't think that's necessarily true, though it is probably true in this instance. But I agree fully that he should make the most of this "illusion".

          – Gregory Currie
          yesterday








        4




        4





        He could also have been invited to give the illusion of objectivity.

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday





        He could also have been invited to give the illusion of objectivity.

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday




        1




        1





        Nevertheless the fact that OP was invited to the meeting means that the OP does have competence in the topic and is therefore qualified/entitled to be part of the decision. And because the co-worker cannot end the illusion now means that he can do nothing about OP expressing his honest and professional opinion.

        – GittingGud
        yesterday





        Nevertheless the fact that OP was invited to the meeting means that the OP does have competence in the topic and is therefore qualified/entitled to be part of the decision. And because the co-worker cannot end the illusion now means that he can do nothing about OP expressing his honest and professional opinion.

        – GittingGud
        yesterday




        1




        1





        I don't think that's necessarily true, though it is probably true in this instance. But I agree fully that he should make the most of this "illusion".

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday





        I don't think that's necessarily true, though it is probably true in this instance. But I agree fully that he should make the most of this "illusion".

        – Gregory Currie
        yesterday











        3















        He invited me to this meeting, even though he had enough information from my preferences to know that I will likely strongly dislike the idea.




        Perhaps he is feeling pressured by his friends to put their software forward, even though he may not like it himself. He could be hoping that someone else will notice its flaws.



        I might talk to him directly (depending on our relationship) and try to determine what he really thinks. I would also try to point out the flaws in more neutral language than 'crap' software.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        paw88789 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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          3















          He invited me to this meeting, even though he had enough information from my preferences to know that I will likely strongly dislike the idea.




          Perhaps he is feeling pressured by his friends to put their software forward, even though he may not like it himself. He could be hoping that someone else will notice its flaws.



          I might talk to him directly (depending on our relationship) and try to determine what he really thinks. I would also try to point out the flaws in more neutral language than 'crap' software.






          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          paw88789 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.























            3












            3








            3








            He invited me to this meeting, even though he had enough information from my preferences to know that I will likely strongly dislike the idea.




            Perhaps he is feeling pressured by his friends to put their software forward, even though he may not like it himself. He could be hoping that someone else will notice its flaws.



            I might talk to him directly (depending on our relationship) and try to determine what he really thinks. I would also try to point out the flaws in more neutral language than 'crap' software.






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            paw88789 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.











            He invited me to this meeting, even though he had enough information from my preferences to know that I will likely strongly dislike the idea.




            Perhaps he is feeling pressured by his friends to put their software forward, even though he may not like it himself. He could be hoping that someone else will notice its flaws.



            I might talk to him directly (depending on our relationship) and try to determine what he really thinks. I would also try to point out the flaws in more neutral language than 'crap' software.







            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            paw88789 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer






            New contributor




            paw88789 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            answered 21 hours ago









            paw88789paw88789

            1311




            1311




            New contributor




            paw88789 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.





            New contributor





            paw88789 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






            paw88789 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.























                2














                Your colleague has a conflict of interest. You should discuss this with the other members of your organization, and make sure that the software is properly evaluated by a party without vested interest and free from undue influence.






                share|improve this answer
























                • A possible conflict of interest is a non-issue if the tool is good, and this is what now the whole team except me is saying.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday
















                2














                Your colleague has a conflict of interest. You should discuss this with the other members of your organization, and make sure that the software is properly evaluated by a party without vested interest and free from undue influence.






                share|improve this answer
























                • A possible conflict of interest is a non-issue if the tool is good, and this is what now the whole team except me is saying.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday














                2












                2








                2







                Your colleague has a conflict of interest. You should discuss this with the other members of your organization, and make sure that the software is properly evaluated by a party without vested interest and free from undue influence.






                share|improve this answer













                Your colleague has a conflict of interest. You should discuss this with the other members of your organization, and make sure that the software is properly evaluated by a party without vested interest and free from undue influence.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered yesterday









                MattHMattH

                692




                692













                • A possible conflict of interest is a non-issue if the tool is good, and this is what now the whole team except me is saying.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday



















                • A possible conflict of interest is a non-issue if the tool is good, and this is what now the whole team except me is saying.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday

















                A possible conflict of interest is a non-issue if the tool is good, and this is what now the whole team except me is saying.

                – Gray Sheep
                yesterday





                A possible conflict of interest is a non-issue if the tool is good, and this is what now the whole team except me is saying.

                – Gray Sheep
                yesterday











                2














                If his friend doesn't work for the company, then injecting his buds software into the company's workflow is simply a conflict of interest. Pointing that out would help a lot.



                I'd also explain to my boss why this software is crap and I'd try to provide some cost benefits analysis of using it. I'd even go so far as to attempt to show how much money the company will lose from the lost development time dealing with the unmaintainable can of worms your team lead's friend is trying to pass off as code. That should help too.



                You are going above your team leads head though, so this likely won't have the greatest impact on your career at your current company. You're a dev though; you can always get another job, that will probably come with a pay raise, so you shouldn't be scared in situations like these.






                share|improve this answer
























                • I am here because the athmosphere is nice and the bosses hear us. These are huge improvements to my previous experiences, and they worth the little bit lower wage for me. I don't want to become a slave again only for +10%. If I switch to another job, I will lose these.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday













                • Ok. There is a technology, call "technology X", which is quite common in the industry and practically all useful developer knows it. Our devs somehow managed to avoid to learn it until now. The tool, call it "tool Y" what the teamlead want to inject, has three effects: 1) avoids the devs to learn "technology X" 2) will lead to various malpractices/customer unsatisifedness on the long-term 3) expels me as devops from the projects using "technology X". | These are the facts. What are the motives, these are still unknown for me.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday








                • 1





                  @GraySheep why is your involvement with the project pivotal to its success? What other advantages would learning tech X give your team. You need an estimate of how much time/money the malpractices will cause. Also, is there a good reason that your team insists on not using tech X?

                  – Steve
                  yesterday






                • 2





                  Regarding your answer: I can't point to the conflict of interest because I am 99% sure, but I have no proof. I won't accuse anybody falsely. And the final decision is not in the hands of the teamlead, but in the hands of the boss. I explained these in a mail, so professionally as I could. My word will be probably far weaker than the whole teams.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday






                • 1





                  @GraySheep You must be in London. Be careful about the freelancer stuff. You can make double, but you also need to pay for all of your stuff, healthcare, taxes, etc...

                  – Steve
                  5 hours ago
















                2














                If his friend doesn't work for the company, then injecting his buds software into the company's workflow is simply a conflict of interest. Pointing that out would help a lot.



                I'd also explain to my boss why this software is crap and I'd try to provide some cost benefits analysis of using it. I'd even go so far as to attempt to show how much money the company will lose from the lost development time dealing with the unmaintainable can of worms your team lead's friend is trying to pass off as code. That should help too.



                You are going above your team leads head though, so this likely won't have the greatest impact on your career at your current company. You're a dev though; you can always get another job, that will probably come with a pay raise, so you shouldn't be scared in situations like these.






                share|improve this answer
























                • I am here because the athmosphere is nice and the bosses hear us. These are huge improvements to my previous experiences, and they worth the little bit lower wage for me. I don't want to become a slave again only for +10%. If I switch to another job, I will lose these.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday













                • Ok. There is a technology, call "technology X", which is quite common in the industry and practically all useful developer knows it. Our devs somehow managed to avoid to learn it until now. The tool, call it "tool Y" what the teamlead want to inject, has three effects: 1) avoids the devs to learn "technology X" 2) will lead to various malpractices/customer unsatisifedness on the long-term 3) expels me as devops from the projects using "technology X". | These are the facts. What are the motives, these are still unknown for me.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday








                • 1





                  @GraySheep why is your involvement with the project pivotal to its success? What other advantages would learning tech X give your team. You need an estimate of how much time/money the malpractices will cause. Also, is there a good reason that your team insists on not using tech X?

                  – Steve
                  yesterday






                • 2





                  Regarding your answer: I can't point to the conflict of interest because I am 99% sure, but I have no proof. I won't accuse anybody falsely. And the final decision is not in the hands of the teamlead, but in the hands of the boss. I explained these in a mail, so professionally as I could. My word will be probably far weaker than the whole teams.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday






                • 1





                  @GraySheep You must be in London. Be careful about the freelancer stuff. You can make double, but you also need to pay for all of your stuff, healthcare, taxes, etc...

                  – Steve
                  5 hours ago














                2












                2








                2







                If his friend doesn't work for the company, then injecting his buds software into the company's workflow is simply a conflict of interest. Pointing that out would help a lot.



                I'd also explain to my boss why this software is crap and I'd try to provide some cost benefits analysis of using it. I'd even go so far as to attempt to show how much money the company will lose from the lost development time dealing with the unmaintainable can of worms your team lead's friend is trying to pass off as code. That should help too.



                You are going above your team leads head though, so this likely won't have the greatest impact on your career at your current company. You're a dev though; you can always get another job, that will probably come with a pay raise, so you shouldn't be scared in situations like these.






                share|improve this answer













                If his friend doesn't work for the company, then injecting his buds software into the company's workflow is simply a conflict of interest. Pointing that out would help a lot.



                I'd also explain to my boss why this software is crap and I'd try to provide some cost benefits analysis of using it. I'd even go so far as to attempt to show how much money the company will lose from the lost development time dealing with the unmaintainable can of worms your team lead's friend is trying to pass off as code. That should help too.



                You are going above your team leads head though, so this likely won't have the greatest impact on your career at your current company. You're a dev though; you can always get another job, that will probably come with a pay raise, so you shouldn't be scared in situations like these.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered yesterday









                SteveSteve

                3,087618




                3,087618













                • I am here because the athmosphere is nice and the bosses hear us. These are huge improvements to my previous experiences, and they worth the little bit lower wage for me. I don't want to become a slave again only for +10%. If I switch to another job, I will lose these.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday













                • Ok. There is a technology, call "technology X", which is quite common in the industry and practically all useful developer knows it. Our devs somehow managed to avoid to learn it until now. The tool, call it "tool Y" what the teamlead want to inject, has three effects: 1) avoids the devs to learn "technology X" 2) will lead to various malpractices/customer unsatisifedness on the long-term 3) expels me as devops from the projects using "technology X". | These are the facts. What are the motives, these are still unknown for me.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday








                • 1





                  @GraySheep why is your involvement with the project pivotal to its success? What other advantages would learning tech X give your team. You need an estimate of how much time/money the malpractices will cause. Also, is there a good reason that your team insists on not using tech X?

                  – Steve
                  yesterday






                • 2





                  Regarding your answer: I can't point to the conflict of interest because I am 99% sure, but I have no proof. I won't accuse anybody falsely. And the final decision is not in the hands of the teamlead, but in the hands of the boss. I explained these in a mail, so professionally as I could. My word will be probably far weaker than the whole teams.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday






                • 1





                  @GraySheep You must be in London. Be careful about the freelancer stuff. You can make double, but you also need to pay for all of your stuff, healthcare, taxes, etc...

                  – Steve
                  5 hours ago



















                • I am here because the athmosphere is nice and the bosses hear us. These are huge improvements to my previous experiences, and they worth the little bit lower wage for me. I don't want to become a slave again only for +10%. If I switch to another job, I will lose these.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday













                • Ok. There is a technology, call "technology X", which is quite common in the industry and practically all useful developer knows it. Our devs somehow managed to avoid to learn it until now. The tool, call it "tool Y" what the teamlead want to inject, has three effects: 1) avoids the devs to learn "technology X" 2) will lead to various malpractices/customer unsatisifedness on the long-term 3) expels me as devops from the projects using "technology X". | These are the facts. What are the motives, these are still unknown for me.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday








                • 1





                  @GraySheep why is your involvement with the project pivotal to its success? What other advantages would learning tech X give your team. You need an estimate of how much time/money the malpractices will cause. Also, is there a good reason that your team insists on not using tech X?

                  – Steve
                  yesterday






                • 2





                  Regarding your answer: I can't point to the conflict of interest because I am 99% sure, but I have no proof. I won't accuse anybody falsely. And the final decision is not in the hands of the teamlead, but in the hands of the boss. I explained these in a mail, so professionally as I could. My word will be probably far weaker than the whole teams.

                  – Gray Sheep
                  yesterday






                • 1





                  @GraySheep You must be in London. Be careful about the freelancer stuff. You can make double, but you also need to pay for all of your stuff, healthcare, taxes, etc...

                  – Steve
                  5 hours ago

















                I am here because the athmosphere is nice and the bosses hear us. These are huge improvements to my previous experiences, and they worth the little bit lower wage for me. I don't want to become a slave again only for +10%. If I switch to another job, I will lose these.

                – Gray Sheep
                yesterday







                I am here because the athmosphere is nice and the bosses hear us. These are huge improvements to my previous experiences, and they worth the little bit lower wage for me. I don't want to become a slave again only for +10%. If I switch to another job, I will lose these.

                – Gray Sheep
                yesterday















                Ok. There is a technology, call "technology X", which is quite common in the industry and practically all useful developer knows it. Our devs somehow managed to avoid to learn it until now. The tool, call it "tool Y" what the teamlead want to inject, has three effects: 1) avoids the devs to learn "technology X" 2) will lead to various malpractices/customer unsatisifedness on the long-term 3) expels me as devops from the projects using "technology X". | These are the facts. What are the motives, these are still unknown for me.

                – Gray Sheep
                yesterday







                Ok. There is a technology, call "technology X", which is quite common in the industry and practically all useful developer knows it. Our devs somehow managed to avoid to learn it until now. The tool, call it "tool Y" what the teamlead want to inject, has three effects: 1) avoids the devs to learn "technology X" 2) will lead to various malpractices/customer unsatisifedness on the long-term 3) expels me as devops from the projects using "technology X". | These are the facts. What are the motives, these are still unknown for me.

                – Gray Sheep
                yesterday






                1




                1





                @GraySheep why is your involvement with the project pivotal to its success? What other advantages would learning tech X give your team. You need an estimate of how much time/money the malpractices will cause. Also, is there a good reason that your team insists on not using tech X?

                – Steve
                yesterday





                @GraySheep why is your involvement with the project pivotal to its success? What other advantages would learning tech X give your team. You need an estimate of how much time/money the malpractices will cause. Also, is there a good reason that your team insists on not using tech X?

                – Steve
                yesterday




                2




                2





                Regarding your answer: I can't point to the conflict of interest because I am 99% sure, but I have no proof. I won't accuse anybody falsely. And the final decision is not in the hands of the teamlead, but in the hands of the boss. I explained these in a mail, so professionally as I could. My word will be probably far weaker than the whole teams.

                – Gray Sheep
                yesterday





                Regarding your answer: I can't point to the conflict of interest because I am 99% sure, but I have no proof. I won't accuse anybody falsely. And the final decision is not in the hands of the teamlead, but in the hands of the boss. I explained these in a mail, so professionally as I could. My word will be probably far weaker than the whole teams.

                – Gray Sheep
                yesterday




                1




                1





                @GraySheep You must be in London. Be careful about the freelancer stuff. You can make double, but you also need to pay for all of your stuff, healthcare, taxes, etc...

                – Steve
                5 hours ago





                @GraySheep You must be in London. Be careful about the freelancer stuff. You can make double, but you also need to pay for all of your stuff, healthcare, taxes, etc...

                – Steve
                5 hours ago











                0














                make questions.



                identify some issue that will arise using that software and ask how it will be handled.




                we support multiple platforms but this tool does not: how this will be handled? we're leaving development on platform X that's the core of our customer base?



                this new tool is licensed under license X that is not compatible with our product: a rewrite of our license may be required?



                we're automating task X, Y and Z with a cut to the costs of 15% but this new tool is not compatible with current automation software: which automation solution we have to acquire to achieve the same goal?




                management pay attention to costs but usually does not care about technicalities; if you can provide a few heavy questions with visible costs attached your point can get across easily.



                make too many or too silly/whyning questions and you will lose any traction from now on and will be labeled as troublemaker.






                share|improve this answer




























                  0














                  make questions.



                  identify some issue that will arise using that software and ask how it will be handled.




                  we support multiple platforms but this tool does not: how this will be handled? we're leaving development on platform X that's the core of our customer base?



                  this new tool is licensed under license X that is not compatible with our product: a rewrite of our license may be required?



                  we're automating task X, Y and Z with a cut to the costs of 15% but this new tool is not compatible with current automation software: which automation solution we have to acquire to achieve the same goal?




                  management pay attention to costs but usually does not care about technicalities; if you can provide a few heavy questions with visible costs attached your point can get across easily.



                  make too many or too silly/whyning questions and you will lose any traction from now on and will be labeled as troublemaker.






                  share|improve this answer


























                    0












                    0








                    0







                    make questions.



                    identify some issue that will arise using that software and ask how it will be handled.




                    we support multiple platforms but this tool does not: how this will be handled? we're leaving development on platform X that's the core of our customer base?



                    this new tool is licensed under license X that is not compatible with our product: a rewrite of our license may be required?



                    we're automating task X, Y and Z with a cut to the costs of 15% but this new tool is not compatible with current automation software: which automation solution we have to acquire to achieve the same goal?




                    management pay attention to costs but usually does not care about technicalities; if you can provide a few heavy questions with visible costs attached your point can get across easily.



                    make too many or too silly/whyning questions and you will lose any traction from now on and will be labeled as troublemaker.






                    share|improve this answer













                    make questions.



                    identify some issue that will arise using that software and ask how it will be handled.




                    we support multiple platforms but this tool does not: how this will be handled? we're leaving development on platform X that's the core of our customer base?



                    this new tool is licensed under license X that is not compatible with our product: a rewrite of our license may be required?



                    we're automating task X, Y and Z with a cut to the costs of 15% but this new tool is not compatible with current automation software: which automation solution we have to acquire to achieve the same goal?




                    management pay attention to costs but usually does not care about technicalities; if you can provide a few heavy questions with visible costs attached your point can get across easily.



                    make too many or too silly/whyning questions and you will lose any traction from now on and will be labeled as troublemaker.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 23 hours ago









                    PaoloPaolo

                    1,3201511




                    1,3201511























                        0














                        You mention this software being awful, crap as you call it.



                        Prove it!



                        Crap software:




                        • is very unstable (what if you let it run with a lot of requests at the same time) => perform load tests

                        • is very picky on input data/parameters (when you enter a string where a number is expected, the whole thing crashes).

                        • from a developer point of view, very heavily maintainable : imagine that somebody requests a change, how many time is needed for developing an obvious modification?

                        • not user friendly (how should it look like?)

                        • wasting resources (how long does it take for making the easiest of calculations, how many memory does it use up, ...?)


                        I understand: setting up an environment for proving the bad quality of this software might take some time, so in order to convince management, you might inform management about your doubts and request for some time to prepare the testing environment (in case this is not available yet).





                        share




























                          0














                          You mention this software being awful, crap as you call it.



                          Prove it!



                          Crap software:




                          • is very unstable (what if you let it run with a lot of requests at the same time) => perform load tests

                          • is very picky on input data/parameters (when you enter a string where a number is expected, the whole thing crashes).

                          • from a developer point of view, very heavily maintainable : imagine that somebody requests a change, how many time is needed for developing an obvious modification?

                          • not user friendly (how should it look like?)

                          • wasting resources (how long does it take for making the easiest of calculations, how many memory does it use up, ...?)


                          I understand: setting up an environment for proving the bad quality of this software might take some time, so in order to convince management, you might inform management about your doubts and request for some time to prepare the testing environment (in case this is not available yet).





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                            You mention this software being awful, crap as you call it.



                            Prove it!



                            Crap software:




                            • is very unstable (what if you let it run with a lot of requests at the same time) => perform load tests

                            • is very picky on input data/parameters (when you enter a string where a number is expected, the whole thing crashes).

                            • from a developer point of view, very heavily maintainable : imagine that somebody requests a change, how many time is needed for developing an obvious modification?

                            • not user friendly (how should it look like?)

                            • wasting resources (how long does it take for making the easiest of calculations, how many memory does it use up, ...?)


                            I understand: setting up an environment for proving the bad quality of this software might take some time, so in order to convince management, you might inform management about your doubts and request for some time to prepare the testing environment (in case this is not available yet).





                            share













                            You mention this software being awful, crap as you call it.



                            Prove it!



                            Crap software:




                            • is very unstable (what if you let it run with a lot of requests at the same time) => perform load tests

                            • is very picky on input data/parameters (when you enter a string where a number is expected, the whole thing crashes).

                            • from a developer point of view, very heavily maintainable : imagine that somebody requests a change, how many time is needed for developing an obvious modification?

                            • not user friendly (how should it look like?)

                            • wasting resources (how long does it take for making the easiest of calculations, how many memory does it use up, ...?)


                            I understand: setting up an environment for proving the bad quality of this software might take some time, so in order to convince management, you might inform management about your doubts and request for some time to prepare the testing environment (in case this is not available yet).






                            share











                            share


                            share










                            answered 2 mins ago









                            DominiqueDominique

                            1,272315




                            1,272315

















                                protected by Mister Positive 20 hours ago



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