Management strongly suggest that I do more unpaid overtime during performance review












26















I have started a new job about 6 months ago.



In my performance review, a couple months ago, We were both discussing my own performance, but also what I liked and disliked in the company itself. When the discussion turned towards the hours (it's 40 hours a week, but every employee decides when they come in to do them, as long as they are in the office between 10am and 4pm), the manager mentioned, almost off-handedly, that I shouldn't refrain from doing slightly more than that, for example if I am deep in coding, I shouldn't leave just because it's the time when it would disrupt my "flow" considerably.



I just had my second performance review, and the same thing came into the discussion, but this time it felt less like a casual offhand comment, and more like a demand.



He started by saying that he noticed I was a early worker (I usually do 7h30am to 4pm, taking a 30min lunch break), but he reiterated that I shouldn't "feel the need" to leave at 4 every day. Then he mentioned that some other coworker (senior) usually put in more than 40 hours, and that I could follow his example. My manager also mentioned that he was also on a 40h contract, but usually put in closer to 60h a week, and that he "doesn't mind" if anyone else does that.



It felt like he didn't want to outright force me to, but wanted to strongly recommend I start doing more hours.



There is literally no overtime policy in place. This is not about getting 1.5x pay during extra hours, right now extra hours are not counted anywhere, and we are not paid any compensation whatsoever for doing any. My total yearly salary would be the same, whether I put in 40 hours or 50 hours every week.



I also want to mention that I have done overtime (no pay) a couple times in the past, near important releases or to finish something I was working on. I only did it of my own will, because I wanted to. Now I'm wondering if I am being "forced" to do them.



So my question is:



Are they allowed to force me to do overtime at no extra pay?



If not, are they allowed to strongly suggest it with possibility of "unrelated" termination, or bad performance reviews if I refuse (which is essentially the same as forcing me from my point of view)



And, if not, then should I do it anyway just to "fit in" or make a good impression? I would much prefer to only put in the 40h I signed up for, but if it is an standard industry practice, then I can deal with it.



By the way, this is in Canada.










share|improve this question




















  • 17





    @Fattie I would never recommend anyone resign without having another job lined up first. Unless you are independently wealthy.

    – mcknz
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @mcknz You don't have to be independently wealthy to walk away from an abusive job. Just having the recommended few months of emergency money is enough. Under the circumstances, I wouldn't personally recommend just walking away--I'd recommend immediately sending out resumes planning to resign as soon as possible--but if the 60 hr weeks had been stated as a hard requirement I'd definitely be on Fattie's side here.

    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago











  • Are you salaried?

    – EJoshuaS
    4 hours ago











  • @Fattie the only way you can do "unpaid overtime" is if you are a salary with no defined hours of work. You get paid X no matter how many hours. Other wise, unpaid overtime does not exist and cannot be enforced.

    – SaggingRufus
    2 hours ago
















26















I have started a new job about 6 months ago.



In my performance review, a couple months ago, We were both discussing my own performance, but also what I liked and disliked in the company itself. When the discussion turned towards the hours (it's 40 hours a week, but every employee decides when they come in to do them, as long as they are in the office between 10am and 4pm), the manager mentioned, almost off-handedly, that I shouldn't refrain from doing slightly more than that, for example if I am deep in coding, I shouldn't leave just because it's the time when it would disrupt my "flow" considerably.



I just had my second performance review, and the same thing came into the discussion, but this time it felt less like a casual offhand comment, and more like a demand.



He started by saying that he noticed I was a early worker (I usually do 7h30am to 4pm, taking a 30min lunch break), but he reiterated that I shouldn't "feel the need" to leave at 4 every day. Then he mentioned that some other coworker (senior) usually put in more than 40 hours, and that I could follow his example. My manager also mentioned that he was also on a 40h contract, but usually put in closer to 60h a week, and that he "doesn't mind" if anyone else does that.



It felt like he didn't want to outright force me to, but wanted to strongly recommend I start doing more hours.



There is literally no overtime policy in place. This is not about getting 1.5x pay during extra hours, right now extra hours are not counted anywhere, and we are not paid any compensation whatsoever for doing any. My total yearly salary would be the same, whether I put in 40 hours or 50 hours every week.



I also want to mention that I have done overtime (no pay) a couple times in the past, near important releases or to finish something I was working on. I only did it of my own will, because I wanted to. Now I'm wondering if I am being "forced" to do them.



So my question is:



Are they allowed to force me to do overtime at no extra pay?



If not, are they allowed to strongly suggest it with possibility of "unrelated" termination, or bad performance reviews if I refuse (which is essentially the same as forcing me from my point of view)



And, if not, then should I do it anyway just to "fit in" or make a good impression? I would much prefer to only put in the 40h I signed up for, but if it is an standard industry practice, then I can deal with it.



By the way, this is in Canada.










share|improve this question




















  • 17





    @Fattie I would never recommend anyone resign without having another job lined up first. Unless you are independently wealthy.

    – mcknz
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @mcknz You don't have to be independently wealthy to walk away from an abusive job. Just having the recommended few months of emergency money is enough. Under the circumstances, I wouldn't personally recommend just walking away--I'd recommend immediately sending out resumes planning to resign as soon as possible--but if the 60 hr weeks had been stated as a hard requirement I'd definitely be on Fattie's side here.

    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago











  • Are you salaried?

    – EJoshuaS
    4 hours ago











  • @Fattie the only way you can do "unpaid overtime" is if you are a salary with no defined hours of work. You get paid X no matter how many hours. Other wise, unpaid overtime does not exist and cannot be enforced.

    – SaggingRufus
    2 hours ago














26












26








26


1






I have started a new job about 6 months ago.



In my performance review, a couple months ago, We were both discussing my own performance, but also what I liked and disliked in the company itself. When the discussion turned towards the hours (it's 40 hours a week, but every employee decides when they come in to do them, as long as they are in the office between 10am and 4pm), the manager mentioned, almost off-handedly, that I shouldn't refrain from doing slightly more than that, for example if I am deep in coding, I shouldn't leave just because it's the time when it would disrupt my "flow" considerably.



I just had my second performance review, and the same thing came into the discussion, but this time it felt less like a casual offhand comment, and more like a demand.



He started by saying that he noticed I was a early worker (I usually do 7h30am to 4pm, taking a 30min lunch break), but he reiterated that I shouldn't "feel the need" to leave at 4 every day. Then he mentioned that some other coworker (senior) usually put in more than 40 hours, and that I could follow his example. My manager also mentioned that he was also on a 40h contract, but usually put in closer to 60h a week, and that he "doesn't mind" if anyone else does that.



It felt like he didn't want to outright force me to, but wanted to strongly recommend I start doing more hours.



There is literally no overtime policy in place. This is not about getting 1.5x pay during extra hours, right now extra hours are not counted anywhere, and we are not paid any compensation whatsoever for doing any. My total yearly salary would be the same, whether I put in 40 hours or 50 hours every week.



I also want to mention that I have done overtime (no pay) a couple times in the past, near important releases or to finish something I was working on. I only did it of my own will, because I wanted to. Now I'm wondering if I am being "forced" to do them.



So my question is:



Are they allowed to force me to do overtime at no extra pay?



If not, are they allowed to strongly suggest it with possibility of "unrelated" termination, or bad performance reviews if I refuse (which is essentially the same as forcing me from my point of view)



And, if not, then should I do it anyway just to "fit in" or make a good impression? I would much prefer to only put in the 40h I signed up for, but if it is an standard industry practice, then I can deal with it.



By the way, this is in Canada.










share|improve this question
















I have started a new job about 6 months ago.



In my performance review, a couple months ago, We were both discussing my own performance, but also what I liked and disliked in the company itself. When the discussion turned towards the hours (it's 40 hours a week, but every employee decides when they come in to do them, as long as they are in the office between 10am and 4pm), the manager mentioned, almost off-handedly, that I shouldn't refrain from doing slightly more than that, for example if I am deep in coding, I shouldn't leave just because it's the time when it would disrupt my "flow" considerably.



I just had my second performance review, and the same thing came into the discussion, but this time it felt less like a casual offhand comment, and more like a demand.



He started by saying that he noticed I was a early worker (I usually do 7h30am to 4pm, taking a 30min lunch break), but he reiterated that I shouldn't "feel the need" to leave at 4 every day. Then he mentioned that some other coworker (senior) usually put in more than 40 hours, and that I could follow his example. My manager also mentioned that he was also on a 40h contract, but usually put in closer to 60h a week, and that he "doesn't mind" if anyone else does that.



It felt like he didn't want to outright force me to, but wanted to strongly recommend I start doing more hours.



There is literally no overtime policy in place. This is not about getting 1.5x pay during extra hours, right now extra hours are not counted anywhere, and we are not paid any compensation whatsoever for doing any. My total yearly salary would be the same, whether I put in 40 hours or 50 hours every week.



I also want to mention that I have done overtime (no pay) a couple times in the past, near important releases or to finish something I was working on. I only did it of my own will, because I wanted to. Now I'm wondering if I am being "forced" to do them.



So my question is:



Are they allowed to force me to do overtime at no extra pay?



If not, are they allowed to strongly suggest it with possibility of "unrelated" termination, or bad performance reviews if I refuse (which is essentially the same as forcing me from my point of view)



And, if not, then should I do it anyway just to "fit in" or make a good impression? I would much prefer to only put in the 40h I signed up for, but if it is an standard industry practice, then I can deal with it.



By the way, this is in Canada.







company-culture performance-reviews canada overtime






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 9 hours ago









DarkCygnus

36.2k1773154




36.2k1773154










asked 9 hours ago









Kaito KidKaito Kid

8582817




8582817








  • 17





    @Fattie I would never recommend anyone resign without having another job lined up first. Unless you are independently wealthy.

    – mcknz
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @mcknz You don't have to be independently wealthy to walk away from an abusive job. Just having the recommended few months of emergency money is enough. Under the circumstances, I wouldn't personally recommend just walking away--I'd recommend immediately sending out resumes planning to resign as soon as possible--but if the 60 hr weeks had been stated as a hard requirement I'd definitely be on Fattie's side here.

    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago











  • Are you salaried?

    – EJoshuaS
    4 hours ago











  • @Fattie the only way you can do "unpaid overtime" is if you are a salary with no defined hours of work. You get paid X no matter how many hours. Other wise, unpaid overtime does not exist and cannot be enforced.

    – SaggingRufus
    2 hours ago














  • 17





    @Fattie I would never recommend anyone resign without having another job lined up first. Unless you are independently wealthy.

    – mcknz
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @mcknz You don't have to be independently wealthy to walk away from an abusive job. Just having the recommended few months of emergency money is enough. Under the circumstances, I wouldn't personally recommend just walking away--I'd recommend immediately sending out resumes planning to resign as soon as possible--but if the 60 hr weeks had been stated as a hard requirement I'd definitely be on Fattie's side here.

    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago











  • Are you salaried?

    – EJoshuaS
    4 hours ago











  • @Fattie the only way you can do "unpaid overtime" is if you are a salary with no defined hours of work. You get paid X no matter how many hours. Other wise, unpaid overtime does not exist and cannot be enforced.

    – SaggingRufus
    2 hours ago








17




17





@Fattie I would never recommend anyone resign without having another job lined up first. Unless you are independently wealthy.

– mcknz
7 hours ago





@Fattie I would never recommend anyone resign without having another job lined up first. Unless you are independently wealthy.

– mcknz
7 hours ago




1




1





@mcknz You don't have to be independently wealthy to walk away from an abusive job. Just having the recommended few months of emergency money is enough. Under the circumstances, I wouldn't personally recommend just walking away--I'd recommend immediately sending out resumes planning to resign as soon as possible--but if the 60 hr weeks had been stated as a hard requirement I'd definitely be on Fattie's side here.

– GrandOpener
5 hours ago





@mcknz You don't have to be independently wealthy to walk away from an abusive job. Just having the recommended few months of emergency money is enough. Under the circumstances, I wouldn't personally recommend just walking away--I'd recommend immediately sending out resumes planning to resign as soon as possible--but if the 60 hr weeks had been stated as a hard requirement I'd definitely be on Fattie's side here.

– GrandOpener
5 hours ago













Are you salaried?

– EJoshuaS
4 hours ago





Are you salaried?

– EJoshuaS
4 hours ago













@Fattie the only way you can do "unpaid overtime" is if you are a salary with no defined hours of work. You get paid X no matter how many hours. Other wise, unpaid overtime does not exist and cannot be enforced.

– SaggingRufus
2 hours ago





@Fattie the only way you can do "unpaid overtime" is if you are a salary with no defined hours of work. You get paid X no matter how many hours. Other wise, unpaid overtime does not exist and cannot be enforced.

– SaggingRufus
2 hours ago










7 Answers
7






active

oldest

votes


















34














What your manager says is nonsense.



What he apparently wants is "bums on seats". A nice quote from some top manager at Microsoft: "You can make people stay in the office 80 hours a week. You can't make them work more than 40 hours a week". Working more than 40 hours a week decreases productivity, and not productivity per hour, but productivity per week. That's it from the company's point of view, it's nonsense. But for you, it is destructive. It destroys your health. It destroys your family life, or your chances of getting one.



So your answer to any demand working more than 40 hours a week, and unpaid at that, should be a very strong "No". You can give the reasoning I gave here.






share|improve this answer



















  • 15





    caution: giving a strong "No" could result in the OP being shown the door (for an "unrelated" reason). In the end that may be desirable, but I would rather "fit in" temporarily and then leave on my own terms.

    – mcknz
    7 hours ago











  • @mcknz If OP get shown the door then OP can do other things. Getting fired can be good.

    – Steve
    6 hours ago






  • 1





    I think mcknz's observation should be worked into this answer. A polite but firm "no" is the correct answer, but OP should be aware this almost certainly sets him up to part with the company in the short-to-medium term, one way or another. He should send out resumes immediately.

    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago






  • 1





    The thing is: if you go skiing for a bit, and tell yourself 'it's so I can do things on my terms' you're almost certainly mistaken. If your employer makes one unreasonable demand, and doesn't seem to get any grief for it, there's no reason there will not be about just at the tail of that, and then, when will you have that moment, where you're the one on top, in control, and can just leave on your own terms?

    – user3801839
    4 hours ago



















23















Are they allowed to force me to do overtime at no extra pay?




This really depends on your local laws, your employment contract, and your status as an employee, none of which can really be determined here. Your best bet, should you really want an answer for this, is to consult a lawyer.



What is more concerning is that your employer appears to have no concern for work/life balance, which is essential for your well-being, your mental health, and your long-term employment.



In the software development industry, overtime is often part of the business, but is usually paid, at least in terms of compensatory time if not directly added to your paycheck. It is also not a regular occurrence.



Your manager may put in a 60-hour week, but that's because he has managerial responsibilities, and is probably getting paid such that overtime for him makes sense. To suggest that you do the same is ridiculous.



Whatever you need to do in the short term to fit in is up to you, but medium to longer term, I would explore new employment, because this will only get worse.






share|improve this answer





















  • 10





    The manager may have to do 60 hours per week to do what anyone else can do in 40...

    – Solar Mike
    9 hours ago



















12














I would set up a meeting with your manager to discuss this. I would be point blank:




Boss, I am working and meeting all the demands expected. I complete all the assigned tickets/tasks on time and in completion. I am not clear on what you mean that I should work more than 40 hours. I am meeting expectations and do not believe I need to do more than 40 hours to do the tasks. Is there more expected of me?




If he cannot give a solid explanation on what he is expecting from you and keeps talking in suggestive tones, then you should consider quitting or continue to do what you're doing and continue to explain that you are meeting expectations and need further clarification on what they're expecting of you.




And, if not, then should I do it anyway just to "fit in" or make a good impression? I would much prefer to only put in the 40h I signed up for, but if it is an standard industry practice, then I can deal with it.




It's like in that movie Office Space with the pieces of flair topic. The manager explains in the movie a co-worker goes above the demand of minimum pieces of flair, but give no specific on what is expected of the main character who did the bare minimum that was set (I believe it was set at 13 minimum and she did that). If you cannot get a clear expectation then how do you know you're "pleasing" the manager? I would set clear expectations and if it cannot be adequately explained then you should ignore it.






share|improve this answer



















  • 2





    I’m amazed that (so far) this is the only answer that recommends directing the manager’s focus back onto sensible performance metrics rather than arbitrary ones.

    – eggyal
    5 hours ago











  • Do you really want to be someone who only does the bare minimum? :P

    – Wildcard
    2 hours ago











  • @Wildcard If the minimum is doing a great job, sure! If the boss is expecting the OP to do more actual work, they need to say so. Saying they want the OP to stay longer without explaining what they want the OP to accomplish in that time is pretty silly.

    – jpmc26
    4 mins ago



















3














Canada is a big place, your province and city matter a lot. Since your overall employment situation most likely vastly exceeds the minimums required by law it is unlikely they are actually violating any labor regulation.



Culturally, in private sector, in software, definitely someone who always locks their workstation stands up and hits the door at 3:59:59 regardless of what's going on will be perceived as un-engaged, just here for the paycheck, etc etc. Especially if you're not, say, catching an extremely infrequent bus or something.
That's just how some people will feel and you can't really change other people's feelings.



Yes it is normal in Canada for full-time developers to be salaried staff with no OT compensation or (official) time in lieu.



No it is not normal in most Canadian markets for successful employers of software developers to still be judging people based on 'time spent in seat' instead of 'useful work output' in 2019.



They cannot force you to do anything. You are employed at will and can resign at any time. Likewise they can lay you off at any time. (If they attempted to terminate for cause without a clear policy, find a decent lawyer and that would be a nice payday for you in most provinces.)



If you signed a contract that says otherwise that doesn't also clearly define terms about your hours and so-forth, there are lots of answers on this site about that.






share|improve this answer





















  • 3





    "Culturally, in private sector, in software, definitely someone who ... hits the door at 3:59:59 regardless of what's going on will be perceived as un-engaged." I wouldn't say this is true in general. At my company, most people (developers & managers) put in right around 40 hours, or maybe a few hours extra, and this is perceived as normal. Everyone that I've spoken to, management or not, agrees that our out-of-office lives are more important. They're not going to pressure you into staying extra, because they don't want to. Most of my coworkers have families, which might matter.

    – John T
    5 hours ago






  • 1





    For sure, environments where lots of people leave at fixed times due to childcare responsibilities etc attract and retain like minded people! I guess that was my sideways way of suggesting OP needs to seek out such an environment if that's what he wants. Cause extremely fluid environments are also common in software, and I think in those types of places the guy who always quits at quttin-time may be at a perceptual disadvantage to someone who sometimes pulls an all nighter then comes in late the next day, even if they both worked the same total hours.

    – Affe
    5 hours ago



















3














I'm going to take up a contrary position to the other answers and agree with management here.



It's slightly unclear from your question if you're hourly or salaried. If you're hourly, it's definitely illegal for them to ask you to work overtime without extra pay.



If you're salaried, though, you're paid to do the job, not to work a specific number of hours a week. That being said, this is not unpaid overtime - you're being paid the salary you agreed to when you took the job.



Your question makes it sound like you think that you're somehow doing them a favor by occasionally working more than 40 hours to meet deadlines and do releases. You're not - you're doing the job that they're already paying you to do.



With that said, I think that you're missing their point about the overtime. It doesn't sound like they're ordering you to start working 60 hours a week or something. I suspect that their point is that if you immediately head for the door the second the clock hits 4:00, it creates the perception that you're just doing the absolute minimum expected of you.



I actually agree with them about not interrupting yourself at a bad stopping point just because it's 4:00. You don't say in your question if you ever do that, but if you do, I'd encourage you to reconsider because it's definitely hurting your productivity. Even if you're not doing that, the fact that it looks like that's what you're doing is still a problem.






share|improve this answer





















  • 4





    This is a good point. The obvious addendum to this is to tell your boss, "Sure, I don't want to break my flow,, so I'm happy to finish when I hit a convenient break. But if I hit a convenient break at 3:30, I'm OK leaving then, right...?" Flexibility is great, so long as the employer is equally flexible.

    – Graham
    3 hours ago











  • @Graham That's a good point as well.

    – EJoshuaS
    3 hours ago











  • "Your question makes it sound like you think that you're somehow doing them a favor by occasionally working more than 40 hours to meet deadlines and do releases." If the actual policy or contract only specifically requires 40 hours of work (which sounds to be the case), then they are doing the company a favor.

    – jpmc26
    2 mins ago





















1














Your employer is typically allowed to request you work overtime (within limits).



However, as far as I know, it is overwhelmingly likely that overtime pay is mandated by law in your province, even if you are salaried. (or the federal government if you live in a territory, I suppose) There are exceptions that vary province-by-province, so check if you are covered. (most relevantly, people with managerial responsibilities may be required to work overtime uncompensated, but that doesn't sound like that is the case with you) Your provincial government's website should have a page detailing overtime laws.



You should look for new work while working 40 hours a week at your current job. If you acquiesce to "suggestions" for unpaid overtime, also consider consulting a labour lawyer.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




user99410 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 3





    "Information Technology Professionals" are exempt at least in all the provinces that contain 'major market cities' for programmers and probably everywhere since I'd imagine the others are also more or less inheriting from the federal tables.

    – Affe
    4 hours ago



















1














Your manager is giving you a 'heads up' for the second time. If you value your job and want to have good career prospects then take the advice seriously. If you don't, then just carry on ignoring it but expect potential repercussions in terms of remuneration or advancement.



Is the manager allowed to?



Yes, he can give you any advice he wants.






share|improve this answer























    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function() {
    var channelOptions = {
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "423"
    };
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
    createEditor();
    });
    }
    else {
    createEditor();
    }
    });

    function createEditor() {
    StackExchange.prepareEditor({
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader: {
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    },
    noCode: true, onDemand: false,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    });


    }
    });














    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function () {
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworkplace.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f128554%2fmanagement-strongly-suggest-that-i-do-more-unpaid-overtime-during-performance-re%23new-answer', 'question_page');
    }
    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown




















    StackExchange.ready(function () {
    $("#show-editor-button input, #show-editor-button button").click(function () {
    var showEditor = function() {
    $("#show-editor-button").hide();
    $("#post-form").removeClass("dno");
    StackExchange.editor.finallyInit();
    };

    var useFancy = $(this).data('confirm-use-fancy');
    if(useFancy == 'True') {
    var popupTitle = $(this).data('confirm-fancy-title');
    var popupBody = $(this).data('confirm-fancy-body');
    var popupAccept = $(this).data('confirm-fancy-accept-button');

    $(this).loadPopup({
    url: '/post/self-answer-popup',
    loaded: function(popup) {
    var pTitle = $(popup).find('h2');
    var pBody = $(popup).find('.popup-body');
    var pSubmit = $(popup).find('.popup-submit');

    pTitle.text(popupTitle);
    pBody.html(popupBody);
    pSubmit.val(popupAccept).click(showEditor);
    }
    })
    } else{
    var confirmText = $(this).data('confirm-text');
    if (confirmText ? confirm(confirmText) : true) {
    showEditor();
    }
    }
    });
    });






    7 Answers
    7






    active

    oldest

    votes








    7 Answers
    7






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    34














    What your manager says is nonsense.



    What he apparently wants is "bums on seats". A nice quote from some top manager at Microsoft: "You can make people stay in the office 80 hours a week. You can't make them work more than 40 hours a week". Working more than 40 hours a week decreases productivity, and not productivity per hour, but productivity per week. That's it from the company's point of view, it's nonsense. But for you, it is destructive. It destroys your health. It destroys your family life, or your chances of getting one.



    So your answer to any demand working more than 40 hours a week, and unpaid at that, should be a very strong "No". You can give the reasoning I gave here.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 15





      caution: giving a strong "No" could result in the OP being shown the door (for an "unrelated" reason). In the end that may be desirable, but I would rather "fit in" temporarily and then leave on my own terms.

      – mcknz
      7 hours ago











    • @mcknz If OP get shown the door then OP can do other things. Getting fired can be good.

      – Steve
      6 hours ago






    • 1





      I think mcknz's observation should be worked into this answer. A polite but firm "no" is the correct answer, but OP should be aware this almost certainly sets him up to part with the company in the short-to-medium term, one way or another. He should send out resumes immediately.

      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago






    • 1





      The thing is: if you go skiing for a bit, and tell yourself 'it's so I can do things on my terms' you're almost certainly mistaken. If your employer makes one unreasonable demand, and doesn't seem to get any grief for it, there's no reason there will not be about just at the tail of that, and then, when will you have that moment, where you're the one on top, in control, and can just leave on your own terms?

      – user3801839
      4 hours ago
















    34














    What your manager says is nonsense.



    What he apparently wants is "bums on seats". A nice quote from some top manager at Microsoft: "You can make people stay in the office 80 hours a week. You can't make them work more than 40 hours a week". Working more than 40 hours a week decreases productivity, and not productivity per hour, but productivity per week. That's it from the company's point of view, it's nonsense. But for you, it is destructive. It destroys your health. It destroys your family life, or your chances of getting one.



    So your answer to any demand working more than 40 hours a week, and unpaid at that, should be a very strong "No". You can give the reasoning I gave here.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 15





      caution: giving a strong "No" could result in the OP being shown the door (for an "unrelated" reason). In the end that may be desirable, but I would rather "fit in" temporarily and then leave on my own terms.

      – mcknz
      7 hours ago











    • @mcknz If OP get shown the door then OP can do other things. Getting fired can be good.

      – Steve
      6 hours ago






    • 1





      I think mcknz's observation should be worked into this answer. A polite but firm "no" is the correct answer, but OP should be aware this almost certainly sets him up to part with the company in the short-to-medium term, one way or another. He should send out resumes immediately.

      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago






    • 1





      The thing is: if you go skiing for a bit, and tell yourself 'it's so I can do things on my terms' you're almost certainly mistaken. If your employer makes one unreasonable demand, and doesn't seem to get any grief for it, there's no reason there will not be about just at the tail of that, and then, when will you have that moment, where you're the one on top, in control, and can just leave on your own terms?

      – user3801839
      4 hours ago














    34












    34








    34







    What your manager says is nonsense.



    What he apparently wants is "bums on seats". A nice quote from some top manager at Microsoft: "You can make people stay in the office 80 hours a week. You can't make them work more than 40 hours a week". Working more than 40 hours a week decreases productivity, and not productivity per hour, but productivity per week. That's it from the company's point of view, it's nonsense. But for you, it is destructive. It destroys your health. It destroys your family life, or your chances of getting one.



    So your answer to any demand working more than 40 hours a week, and unpaid at that, should be a very strong "No". You can give the reasoning I gave here.






    share|improve this answer













    What your manager says is nonsense.



    What he apparently wants is "bums on seats". A nice quote from some top manager at Microsoft: "You can make people stay in the office 80 hours a week. You can't make them work more than 40 hours a week". Working more than 40 hours a week decreases productivity, and not productivity per hour, but productivity per week. That's it from the company's point of view, it's nonsense. But for you, it is destructive. It destroys your health. It destroys your family life, or your chances of getting one.



    So your answer to any demand working more than 40 hours a week, and unpaid at that, should be a very strong "No". You can give the reasoning I gave here.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 9 hours ago









    gnasher729gnasher729

    86.7k39152275




    86.7k39152275








    • 15





      caution: giving a strong "No" could result in the OP being shown the door (for an "unrelated" reason). In the end that may be desirable, but I would rather "fit in" temporarily and then leave on my own terms.

      – mcknz
      7 hours ago











    • @mcknz If OP get shown the door then OP can do other things. Getting fired can be good.

      – Steve
      6 hours ago






    • 1





      I think mcknz's observation should be worked into this answer. A polite but firm "no" is the correct answer, but OP should be aware this almost certainly sets him up to part with the company in the short-to-medium term, one way or another. He should send out resumes immediately.

      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago






    • 1





      The thing is: if you go skiing for a bit, and tell yourself 'it's so I can do things on my terms' you're almost certainly mistaken. If your employer makes one unreasonable demand, and doesn't seem to get any grief for it, there's no reason there will not be about just at the tail of that, and then, when will you have that moment, where you're the one on top, in control, and can just leave on your own terms?

      – user3801839
      4 hours ago














    • 15





      caution: giving a strong "No" could result in the OP being shown the door (for an "unrelated" reason). In the end that may be desirable, but I would rather "fit in" temporarily and then leave on my own terms.

      – mcknz
      7 hours ago











    • @mcknz If OP get shown the door then OP can do other things. Getting fired can be good.

      – Steve
      6 hours ago






    • 1





      I think mcknz's observation should be worked into this answer. A polite but firm "no" is the correct answer, but OP should be aware this almost certainly sets him up to part with the company in the short-to-medium term, one way or another. He should send out resumes immediately.

      – GrandOpener
      5 hours ago






    • 1





      The thing is: if you go skiing for a bit, and tell yourself 'it's so I can do things on my terms' you're almost certainly mistaken. If your employer makes one unreasonable demand, and doesn't seem to get any grief for it, there's no reason there will not be about just at the tail of that, and then, when will you have that moment, where you're the one on top, in control, and can just leave on your own terms?

      – user3801839
      4 hours ago








    15




    15





    caution: giving a strong "No" could result in the OP being shown the door (for an "unrelated" reason). In the end that may be desirable, but I would rather "fit in" temporarily and then leave on my own terms.

    – mcknz
    7 hours ago





    caution: giving a strong "No" could result in the OP being shown the door (for an "unrelated" reason). In the end that may be desirable, but I would rather "fit in" temporarily and then leave on my own terms.

    – mcknz
    7 hours ago













    @mcknz If OP get shown the door then OP can do other things. Getting fired can be good.

    – Steve
    6 hours ago





    @mcknz If OP get shown the door then OP can do other things. Getting fired can be good.

    – Steve
    6 hours ago




    1




    1





    I think mcknz's observation should be worked into this answer. A polite but firm "no" is the correct answer, but OP should be aware this almost certainly sets him up to part with the company in the short-to-medium term, one way or another. He should send out resumes immediately.

    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago





    I think mcknz's observation should be worked into this answer. A polite but firm "no" is the correct answer, but OP should be aware this almost certainly sets him up to part with the company in the short-to-medium term, one way or another. He should send out resumes immediately.

    – GrandOpener
    5 hours ago




    1




    1





    The thing is: if you go skiing for a bit, and tell yourself 'it's so I can do things on my terms' you're almost certainly mistaken. If your employer makes one unreasonable demand, and doesn't seem to get any grief for it, there's no reason there will not be about just at the tail of that, and then, when will you have that moment, where you're the one on top, in control, and can just leave on your own terms?

    – user3801839
    4 hours ago





    The thing is: if you go skiing for a bit, and tell yourself 'it's so I can do things on my terms' you're almost certainly mistaken. If your employer makes one unreasonable demand, and doesn't seem to get any grief for it, there's no reason there will not be about just at the tail of that, and then, when will you have that moment, where you're the one on top, in control, and can just leave on your own terms?

    – user3801839
    4 hours ago













    23















    Are they allowed to force me to do overtime at no extra pay?




    This really depends on your local laws, your employment contract, and your status as an employee, none of which can really be determined here. Your best bet, should you really want an answer for this, is to consult a lawyer.



    What is more concerning is that your employer appears to have no concern for work/life balance, which is essential for your well-being, your mental health, and your long-term employment.



    In the software development industry, overtime is often part of the business, but is usually paid, at least in terms of compensatory time if not directly added to your paycheck. It is also not a regular occurrence.



    Your manager may put in a 60-hour week, but that's because he has managerial responsibilities, and is probably getting paid such that overtime for him makes sense. To suggest that you do the same is ridiculous.



    Whatever you need to do in the short term to fit in is up to you, but medium to longer term, I would explore new employment, because this will only get worse.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 10





      The manager may have to do 60 hours per week to do what anyone else can do in 40...

      – Solar Mike
      9 hours ago
















    23















    Are they allowed to force me to do overtime at no extra pay?




    This really depends on your local laws, your employment contract, and your status as an employee, none of which can really be determined here. Your best bet, should you really want an answer for this, is to consult a lawyer.



    What is more concerning is that your employer appears to have no concern for work/life balance, which is essential for your well-being, your mental health, and your long-term employment.



    In the software development industry, overtime is often part of the business, but is usually paid, at least in terms of compensatory time if not directly added to your paycheck. It is also not a regular occurrence.



    Your manager may put in a 60-hour week, but that's because he has managerial responsibilities, and is probably getting paid such that overtime for him makes sense. To suggest that you do the same is ridiculous.



    Whatever you need to do in the short term to fit in is up to you, but medium to longer term, I would explore new employment, because this will only get worse.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 10





      The manager may have to do 60 hours per week to do what anyone else can do in 40...

      – Solar Mike
      9 hours ago














    23












    23








    23








    Are they allowed to force me to do overtime at no extra pay?




    This really depends on your local laws, your employment contract, and your status as an employee, none of which can really be determined here. Your best bet, should you really want an answer for this, is to consult a lawyer.



    What is more concerning is that your employer appears to have no concern for work/life balance, which is essential for your well-being, your mental health, and your long-term employment.



    In the software development industry, overtime is often part of the business, but is usually paid, at least in terms of compensatory time if not directly added to your paycheck. It is also not a regular occurrence.



    Your manager may put in a 60-hour week, but that's because he has managerial responsibilities, and is probably getting paid such that overtime for him makes sense. To suggest that you do the same is ridiculous.



    Whatever you need to do in the short term to fit in is up to you, but medium to longer term, I would explore new employment, because this will only get worse.






    share|improve this answer
















    Are they allowed to force me to do overtime at no extra pay?




    This really depends on your local laws, your employment contract, and your status as an employee, none of which can really be determined here. Your best bet, should you really want an answer for this, is to consult a lawyer.



    What is more concerning is that your employer appears to have no concern for work/life balance, which is essential for your well-being, your mental health, and your long-term employment.



    In the software development industry, overtime is often part of the business, but is usually paid, at least in terms of compensatory time if not directly added to your paycheck. It is also not a regular occurrence.



    Your manager may put in a 60-hour week, but that's because he has managerial responsibilities, and is probably getting paid such that overtime for him makes sense. To suggest that you do the same is ridiculous.



    Whatever you need to do in the short term to fit in is up to you, but medium to longer term, I would explore new employment, because this will only get worse.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 6 hours ago

























    answered 9 hours ago









    mcknzmcknz

    17.1k65873




    17.1k65873








    • 10





      The manager may have to do 60 hours per week to do what anyone else can do in 40...

      – Solar Mike
      9 hours ago














    • 10





      The manager may have to do 60 hours per week to do what anyone else can do in 40...

      – Solar Mike
      9 hours ago








    10




    10





    The manager may have to do 60 hours per week to do what anyone else can do in 40...

    – Solar Mike
    9 hours ago





    The manager may have to do 60 hours per week to do what anyone else can do in 40...

    – Solar Mike
    9 hours ago











    12














    I would set up a meeting with your manager to discuss this. I would be point blank:




    Boss, I am working and meeting all the demands expected. I complete all the assigned tickets/tasks on time and in completion. I am not clear on what you mean that I should work more than 40 hours. I am meeting expectations and do not believe I need to do more than 40 hours to do the tasks. Is there more expected of me?




    If he cannot give a solid explanation on what he is expecting from you and keeps talking in suggestive tones, then you should consider quitting or continue to do what you're doing and continue to explain that you are meeting expectations and need further clarification on what they're expecting of you.




    And, if not, then should I do it anyway just to "fit in" or make a good impression? I would much prefer to only put in the 40h I signed up for, but if it is an standard industry practice, then I can deal with it.




    It's like in that movie Office Space with the pieces of flair topic. The manager explains in the movie a co-worker goes above the demand of minimum pieces of flair, but give no specific on what is expected of the main character who did the bare minimum that was set (I believe it was set at 13 minimum and she did that). If you cannot get a clear expectation then how do you know you're "pleasing" the manager? I would set clear expectations and if it cannot be adequately explained then you should ignore it.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 2





      I’m amazed that (so far) this is the only answer that recommends directing the manager’s focus back onto sensible performance metrics rather than arbitrary ones.

      – eggyal
      5 hours ago











    • Do you really want to be someone who only does the bare minimum? :P

      – Wildcard
      2 hours ago











    • @Wildcard If the minimum is doing a great job, sure! If the boss is expecting the OP to do more actual work, they need to say so. Saying they want the OP to stay longer without explaining what they want the OP to accomplish in that time is pretty silly.

      – jpmc26
      4 mins ago
















    12














    I would set up a meeting with your manager to discuss this. I would be point blank:




    Boss, I am working and meeting all the demands expected. I complete all the assigned tickets/tasks on time and in completion. I am not clear on what you mean that I should work more than 40 hours. I am meeting expectations and do not believe I need to do more than 40 hours to do the tasks. Is there more expected of me?




    If he cannot give a solid explanation on what he is expecting from you and keeps talking in suggestive tones, then you should consider quitting or continue to do what you're doing and continue to explain that you are meeting expectations and need further clarification on what they're expecting of you.




    And, if not, then should I do it anyway just to "fit in" or make a good impression? I would much prefer to only put in the 40h I signed up for, but if it is an standard industry practice, then I can deal with it.




    It's like in that movie Office Space with the pieces of flair topic. The manager explains in the movie a co-worker goes above the demand of minimum pieces of flair, but give no specific on what is expected of the main character who did the bare minimum that was set (I believe it was set at 13 minimum and she did that). If you cannot get a clear expectation then how do you know you're "pleasing" the manager? I would set clear expectations and if it cannot be adequately explained then you should ignore it.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 2





      I’m amazed that (so far) this is the only answer that recommends directing the manager’s focus back onto sensible performance metrics rather than arbitrary ones.

      – eggyal
      5 hours ago











    • Do you really want to be someone who only does the bare minimum? :P

      – Wildcard
      2 hours ago











    • @Wildcard If the minimum is doing a great job, sure! If the boss is expecting the OP to do more actual work, they need to say so. Saying they want the OP to stay longer without explaining what they want the OP to accomplish in that time is pretty silly.

      – jpmc26
      4 mins ago














    12












    12








    12







    I would set up a meeting with your manager to discuss this. I would be point blank:




    Boss, I am working and meeting all the demands expected. I complete all the assigned tickets/tasks on time and in completion. I am not clear on what you mean that I should work more than 40 hours. I am meeting expectations and do not believe I need to do more than 40 hours to do the tasks. Is there more expected of me?




    If he cannot give a solid explanation on what he is expecting from you and keeps talking in suggestive tones, then you should consider quitting or continue to do what you're doing and continue to explain that you are meeting expectations and need further clarification on what they're expecting of you.




    And, if not, then should I do it anyway just to "fit in" or make a good impression? I would much prefer to only put in the 40h I signed up for, but if it is an standard industry practice, then I can deal with it.




    It's like in that movie Office Space with the pieces of flair topic. The manager explains in the movie a co-worker goes above the demand of minimum pieces of flair, but give no specific on what is expected of the main character who did the bare minimum that was set (I believe it was set at 13 minimum and she did that). If you cannot get a clear expectation then how do you know you're "pleasing" the manager? I would set clear expectations and if it cannot be adequately explained then you should ignore it.






    share|improve this answer













    I would set up a meeting with your manager to discuss this. I would be point blank:




    Boss, I am working and meeting all the demands expected. I complete all the assigned tickets/tasks on time and in completion. I am not clear on what you mean that I should work more than 40 hours. I am meeting expectations and do not believe I need to do more than 40 hours to do the tasks. Is there more expected of me?




    If he cannot give a solid explanation on what he is expecting from you and keeps talking in suggestive tones, then you should consider quitting or continue to do what you're doing and continue to explain that you are meeting expectations and need further clarification on what they're expecting of you.




    And, if not, then should I do it anyway just to "fit in" or make a good impression? I would much prefer to only put in the 40h I signed up for, but if it is an standard industry practice, then I can deal with it.




    It's like in that movie Office Space with the pieces of flair topic. The manager explains in the movie a co-worker goes above the demand of minimum pieces of flair, but give no specific on what is expected of the main character who did the bare minimum that was set (I believe it was set at 13 minimum and she did that). If you cannot get a clear expectation then how do you know you're "pleasing" the manager? I would set clear expectations and if it cannot be adequately explained then you should ignore it.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 9 hours ago









    DanDan

    8,59231529




    8,59231529








    • 2





      I’m amazed that (so far) this is the only answer that recommends directing the manager’s focus back onto sensible performance metrics rather than arbitrary ones.

      – eggyal
      5 hours ago











    • Do you really want to be someone who only does the bare minimum? :P

      – Wildcard
      2 hours ago











    • @Wildcard If the minimum is doing a great job, sure! If the boss is expecting the OP to do more actual work, they need to say so. Saying they want the OP to stay longer without explaining what they want the OP to accomplish in that time is pretty silly.

      – jpmc26
      4 mins ago














    • 2





      I’m amazed that (so far) this is the only answer that recommends directing the manager’s focus back onto sensible performance metrics rather than arbitrary ones.

      – eggyal
      5 hours ago











    • Do you really want to be someone who only does the bare minimum? :P

      – Wildcard
      2 hours ago











    • @Wildcard If the minimum is doing a great job, sure! If the boss is expecting the OP to do more actual work, they need to say so. Saying they want the OP to stay longer without explaining what they want the OP to accomplish in that time is pretty silly.

      – jpmc26
      4 mins ago








    2




    2





    I’m amazed that (so far) this is the only answer that recommends directing the manager’s focus back onto sensible performance metrics rather than arbitrary ones.

    – eggyal
    5 hours ago





    I’m amazed that (so far) this is the only answer that recommends directing the manager’s focus back onto sensible performance metrics rather than arbitrary ones.

    – eggyal
    5 hours ago













    Do you really want to be someone who only does the bare minimum? :P

    – Wildcard
    2 hours ago





    Do you really want to be someone who only does the bare minimum? :P

    – Wildcard
    2 hours ago













    @Wildcard If the minimum is doing a great job, sure! If the boss is expecting the OP to do more actual work, they need to say so. Saying they want the OP to stay longer without explaining what they want the OP to accomplish in that time is pretty silly.

    – jpmc26
    4 mins ago





    @Wildcard If the minimum is doing a great job, sure! If the boss is expecting the OP to do more actual work, they need to say so. Saying they want the OP to stay longer without explaining what they want the OP to accomplish in that time is pretty silly.

    – jpmc26
    4 mins ago











    3














    Canada is a big place, your province and city matter a lot. Since your overall employment situation most likely vastly exceeds the minimums required by law it is unlikely they are actually violating any labor regulation.



    Culturally, in private sector, in software, definitely someone who always locks their workstation stands up and hits the door at 3:59:59 regardless of what's going on will be perceived as un-engaged, just here for the paycheck, etc etc. Especially if you're not, say, catching an extremely infrequent bus or something.
    That's just how some people will feel and you can't really change other people's feelings.



    Yes it is normal in Canada for full-time developers to be salaried staff with no OT compensation or (official) time in lieu.



    No it is not normal in most Canadian markets for successful employers of software developers to still be judging people based on 'time spent in seat' instead of 'useful work output' in 2019.



    They cannot force you to do anything. You are employed at will and can resign at any time. Likewise they can lay you off at any time. (If they attempted to terminate for cause without a clear policy, find a decent lawyer and that would be a nice payday for you in most provinces.)



    If you signed a contract that says otherwise that doesn't also clearly define terms about your hours and so-forth, there are lots of answers on this site about that.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 3





      "Culturally, in private sector, in software, definitely someone who ... hits the door at 3:59:59 regardless of what's going on will be perceived as un-engaged." I wouldn't say this is true in general. At my company, most people (developers & managers) put in right around 40 hours, or maybe a few hours extra, and this is perceived as normal. Everyone that I've spoken to, management or not, agrees that our out-of-office lives are more important. They're not going to pressure you into staying extra, because they don't want to. Most of my coworkers have families, which might matter.

      – John T
      5 hours ago






    • 1





      For sure, environments where lots of people leave at fixed times due to childcare responsibilities etc attract and retain like minded people! I guess that was my sideways way of suggesting OP needs to seek out such an environment if that's what he wants. Cause extremely fluid environments are also common in software, and I think in those types of places the guy who always quits at quttin-time may be at a perceptual disadvantage to someone who sometimes pulls an all nighter then comes in late the next day, even if they both worked the same total hours.

      – Affe
      5 hours ago
















    3














    Canada is a big place, your province and city matter a lot. Since your overall employment situation most likely vastly exceeds the minimums required by law it is unlikely they are actually violating any labor regulation.



    Culturally, in private sector, in software, definitely someone who always locks their workstation stands up and hits the door at 3:59:59 regardless of what's going on will be perceived as un-engaged, just here for the paycheck, etc etc. Especially if you're not, say, catching an extremely infrequent bus or something.
    That's just how some people will feel and you can't really change other people's feelings.



    Yes it is normal in Canada for full-time developers to be salaried staff with no OT compensation or (official) time in lieu.



    No it is not normal in most Canadian markets for successful employers of software developers to still be judging people based on 'time spent in seat' instead of 'useful work output' in 2019.



    They cannot force you to do anything. You are employed at will and can resign at any time. Likewise they can lay you off at any time. (If they attempted to terminate for cause without a clear policy, find a decent lawyer and that would be a nice payday for you in most provinces.)



    If you signed a contract that says otherwise that doesn't also clearly define terms about your hours and so-forth, there are lots of answers on this site about that.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 3





      "Culturally, in private sector, in software, definitely someone who ... hits the door at 3:59:59 regardless of what's going on will be perceived as un-engaged." I wouldn't say this is true in general. At my company, most people (developers & managers) put in right around 40 hours, or maybe a few hours extra, and this is perceived as normal. Everyone that I've spoken to, management or not, agrees that our out-of-office lives are more important. They're not going to pressure you into staying extra, because they don't want to. Most of my coworkers have families, which might matter.

      – John T
      5 hours ago






    • 1





      For sure, environments where lots of people leave at fixed times due to childcare responsibilities etc attract and retain like minded people! I guess that was my sideways way of suggesting OP needs to seek out such an environment if that's what he wants. Cause extremely fluid environments are also common in software, and I think in those types of places the guy who always quits at quttin-time may be at a perceptual disadvantage to someone who sometimes pulls an all nighter then comes in late the next day, even if they both worked the same total hours.

      – Affe
      5 hours ago














    3












    3








    3







    Canada is a big place, your province and city matter a lot. Since your overall employment situation most likely vastly exceeds the minimums required by law it is unlikely they are actually violating any labor regulation.



    Culturally, in private sector, in software, definitely someone who always locks their workstation stands up and hits the door at 3:59:59 regardless of what's going on will be perceived as un-engaged, just here for the paycheck, etc etc. Especially if you're not, say, catching an extremely infrequent bus or something.
    That's just how some people will feel and you can't really change other people's feelings.



    Yes it is normal in Canada for full-time developers to be salaried staff with no OT compensation or (official) time in lieu.



    No it is not normal in most Canadian markets for successful employers of software developers to still be judging people based on 'time spent in seat' instead of 'useful work output' in 2019.



    They cannot force you to do anything. You are employed at will and can resign at any time. Likewise they can lay you off at any time. (If they attempted to terminate for cause without a clear policy, find a decent lawyer and that would be a nice payday for you in most provinces.)



    If you signed a contract that says otherwise that doesn't also clearly define terms about your hours and so-forth, there are lots of answers on this site about that.






    share|improve this answer















    Canada is a big place, your province and city matter a lot. Since your overall employment situation most likely vastly exceeds the minimums required by law it is unlikely they are actually violating any labor regulation.



    Culturally, in private sector, in software, definitely someone who always locks their workstation stands up and hits the door at 3:59:59 regardless of what's going on will be perceived as un-engaged, just here for the paycheck, etc etc. Especially if you're not, say, catching an extremely infrequent bus or something.
    That's just how some people will feel and you can't really change other people's feelings.



    Yes it is normal in Canada for full-time developers to be salaried staff with no OT compensation or (official) time in lieu.



    No it is not normal in most Canadian markets for successful employers of software developers to still be judging people based on 'time spent in seat' instead of 'useful work output' in 2019.



    They cannot force you to do anything. You are employed at will and can resign at any time. Likewise they can lay you off at any time. (If they attempted to terminate for cause without a clear policy, find a decent lawyer and that would be a nice payday for you in most provinces.)



    If you signed a contract that says otherwise that doesn't also clearly define terms about your hours and so-forth, there are lots of answers on this site about that.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 8 hours ago

























    answered 8 hours ago









    AffeAffe

    29715




    29715








    • 3





      "Culturally, in private sector, in software, definitely someone who ... hits the door at 3:59:59 regardless of what's going on will be perceived as un-engaged." I wouldn't say this is true in general. At my company, most people (developers & managers) put in right around 40 hours, or maybe a few hours extra, and this is perceived as normal. Everyone that I've spoken to, management or not, agrees that our out-of-office lives are more important. They're not going to pressure you into staying extra, because they don't want to. Most of my coworkers have families, which might matter.

      – John T
      5 hours ago






    • 1





      For sure, environments where lots of people leave at fixed times due to childcare responsibilities etc attract and retain like minded people! I guess that was my sideways way of suggesting OP needs to seek out such an environment if that's what he wants. Cause extremely fluid environments are also common in software, and I think in those types of places the guy who always quits at quttin-time may be at a perceptual disadvantage to someone who sometimes pulls an all nighter then comes in late the next day, even if they both worked the same total hours.

      – Affe
      5 hours ago














    • 3





      "Culturally, in private sector, in software, definitely someone who ... hits the door at 3:59:59 regardless of what's going on will be perceived as un-engaged." I wouldn't say this is true in general. At my company, most people (developers & managers) put in right around 40 hours, or maybe a few hours extra, and this is perceived as normal. Everyone that I've spoken to, management or not, agrees that our out-of-office lives are more important. They're not going to pressure you into staying extra, because they don't want to. Most of my coworkers have families, which might matter.

      – John T
      5 hours ago






    • 1





      For sure, environments where lots of people leave at fixed times due to childcare responsibilities etc attract and retain like minded people! I guess that was my sideways way of suggesting OP needs to seek out such an environment if that's what he wants. Cause extremely fluid environments are also common in software, and I think in those types of places the guy who always quits at quttin-time may be at a perceptual disadvantage to someone who sometimes pulls an all nighter then comes in late the next day, even if they both worked the same total hours.

      – Affe
      5 hours ago








    3




    3





    "Culturally, in private sector, in software, definitely someone who ... hits the door at 3:59:59 regardless of what's going on will be perceived as un-engaged." I wouldn't say this is true in general. At my company, most people (developers & managers) put in right around 40 hours, or maybe a few hours extra, and this is perceived as normal. Everyone that I've spoken to, management or not, agrees that our out-of-office lives are more important. They're not going to pressure you into staying extra, because they don't want to. Most of my coworkers have families, which might matter.

    – John T
    5 hours ago





    "Culturally, in private sector, in software, definitely someone who ... hits the door at 3:59:59 regardless of what's going on will be perceived as un-engaged." I wouldn't say this is true in general. At my company, most people (developers & managers) put in right around 40 hours, or maybe a few hours extra, and this is perceived as normal. Everyone that I've spoken to, management or not, agrees that our out-of-office lives are more important. They're not going to pressure you into staying extra, because they don't want to. Most of my coworkers have families, which might matter.

    – John T
    5 hours ago




    1




    1





    For sure, environments where lots of people leave at fixed times due to childcare responsibilities etc attract and retain like minded people! I guess that was my sideways way of suggesting OP needs to seek out such an environment if that's what he wants. Cause extremely fluid environments are also common in software, and I think in those types of places the guy who always quits at quttin-time may be at a perceptual disadvantage to someone who sometimes pulls an all nighter then comes in late the next day, even if they both worked the same total hours.

    – Affe
    5 hours ago





    For sure, environments where lots of people leave at fixed times due to childcare responsibilities etc attract and retain like minded people! I guess that was my sideways way of suggesting OP needs to seek out such an environment if that's what he wants. Cause extremely fluid environments are also common in software, and I think in those types of places the guy who always quits at quttin-time may be at a perceptual disadvantage to someone who sometimes pulls an all nighter then comes in late the next day, even if they both worked the same total hours.

    – Affe
    5 hours ago











    3














    I'm going to take up a contrary position to the other answers and agree with management here.



    It's slightly unclear from your question if you're hourly or salaried. If you're hourly, it's definitely illegal for them to ask you to work overtime without extra pay.



    If you're salaried, though, you're paid to do the job, not to work a specific number of hours a week. That being said, this is not unpaid overtime - you're being paid the salary you agreed to when you took the job.



    Your question makes it sound like you think that you're somehow doing them a favor by occasionally working more than 40 hours to meet deadlines and do releases. You're not - you're doing the job that they're already paying you to do.



    With that said, I think that you're missing their point about the overtime. It doesn't sound like they're ordering you to start working 60 hours a week or something. I suspect that their point is that if you immediately head for the door the second the clock hits 4:00, it creates the perception that you're just doing the absolute minimum expected of you.



    I actually agree with them about not interrupting yourself at a bad stopping point just because it's 4:00. You don't say in your question if you ever do that, but if you do, I'd encourage you to reconsider because it's definitely hurting your productivity. Even if you're not doing that, the fact that it looks like that's what you're doing is still a problem.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 4





      This is a good point. The obvious addendum to this is to tell your boss, "Sure, I don't want to break my flow,, so I'm happy to finish when I hit a convenient break. But if I hit a convenient break at 3:30, I'm OK leaving then, right...?" Flexibility is great, so long as the employer is equally flexible.

      – Graham
      3 hours ago











    • @Graham That's a good point as well.

      – EJoshuaS
      3 hours ago











    • "Your question makes it sound like you think that you're somehow doing them a favor by occasionally working more than 40 hours to meet deadlines and do releases." If the actual policy or contract only specifically requires 40 hours of work (which sounds to be the case), then they are doing the company a favor.

      – jpmc26
      2 mins ago


















    3














    I'm going to take up a contrary position to the other answers and agree with management here.



    It's slightly unclear from your question if you're hourly or salaried. If you're hourly, it's definitely illegal for them to ask you to work overtime without extra pay.



    If you're salaried, though, you're paid to do the job, not to work a specific number of hours a week. That being said, this is not unpaid overtime - you're being paid the salary you agreed to when you took the job.



    Your question makes it sound like you think that you're somehow doing them a favor by occasionally working more than 40 hours to meet deadlines and do releases. You're not - you're doing the job that they're already paying you to do.



    With that said, I think that you're missing their point about the overtime. It doesn't sound like they're ordering you to start working 60 hours a week or something. I suspect that their point is that if you immediately head for the door the second the clock hits 4:00, it creates the perception that you're just doing the absolute minimum expected of you.



    I actually agree with them about not interrupting yourself at a bad stopping point just because it's 4:00. You don't say in your question if you ever do that, but if you do, I'd encourage you to reconsider because it's definitely hurting your productivity. Even if you're not doing that, the fact that it looks like that's what you're doing is still a problem.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 4





      This is a good point. The obvious addendum to this is to tell your boss, "Sure, I don't want to break my flow,, so I'm happy to finish when I hit a convenient break. But if I hit a convenient break at 3:30, I'm OK leaving then, right...?" Flexibility is great, so long as the employer is equally flexible.

      – Graham
      3 hours ago











    • @Graham That's a good point as well.

      – EJoshuaS
      3 hours ago











    • "Your question makes it sound like you think that you're somehow doing them a favor by occasionally working more than 40 hours to meet deadlines and do releases." If the actual policy or contract only specifically requires 40 hours of work (which sounds to be the case), then they are doing the company a favor.

      – jpmc26
      2 mins ago
















    3












    3








    3







    I'm going to take up a contrary position to the other answers and agree with management here.



    It's slightly unclear from your question if you're hourly or salaried. If you're hourly, it's definitely illegal for them to ask you to work overtime without extra pay.



    If you're salaried, though, you're paid to do the job, not to work a specific number of hours a week. That being said, this is not unpaid overtime - you're being paid the salary you agreed to when you took the job.



    Your question makes it sound like you think that you're somehow doing them a favor by occasionally working more than 40 hours to meet deadlines and do releases. You're not - you're doing the job that they're already paying you to do.



    With that said, I think that you're missing their point about the overtime. It doesn't sound like they're ordering you to start working 60 hours a week or something. I suspect that their point is that if you immediately head for the door the second the clock hits 4:00, it creates the perception that you're just doing the absolute minimum expected of you.



    I actually agree with them about not interrupting yourself at a bad stopping point just because it's 4:00. You don't say in your question if you ever do that, but if you do, I'd encourage you to reconsider because it's definitely hurting your productivity. Even if you're not doing that, the fact that it looks like that's what you're doing is still a problem.






    share|improve this answer















    I'm going to take up a contrary position to the other answers and agree with management here.



    It's slightly unclear from your question if you're hourly or salaried. If you're hourly, it's definitely illegal for them to ask you to work overtime without extra pay.



    If you're salaried, though, you're paid to do the job, not to work a specific number of hours a week. That being said, this is not unpaid overtime - you're being paid the salary you agreed to when you took the job.



    Your question makes it sound like you think that you're somehow doing them a favor by occasionally working more than 40 hours to meet deadlines and do releases. You're not - you're doing the job that they're already paying you to do.



    With that said, I think that you're missing their point about the overtime. It doesn't sound like they're ordering you to start working 60 hours a week or something. I suspect that their point is that if you immediately head for the door the second the clock hits 4:00, it creates the perception that you're just doing the absolute minimum expected of you.



    I actually agree with them about not interrupting yourself at a bad stopping point just because it's 4:00. You don't say in your question if you ever do that, but if you do, I'd encourage you to reconsider because it's definitely hurting your productivity. Even if you're not doing that, the fact that it looks like that's what you're doing is still a problem.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 3 hours ago

























    answered 3 hours ago









    EJoshuaSEJoshuaS

    407213




    407213








    • 4





      This is a good point. The obvious addendum to this is to tell your boss, "Sure, I don't want to break my flow,, so I'm happy to finish when I hit a convenient break. But if I hit a convenient break at 3:30, I'm OK leaving then, right...?" Flexibility is great, so long as the employer is equally flexible.

      – Graham
      3 hours ago











    • @Graham That's a good point as well.

      – EJoshuaS
      3 hours ago











    • "Your question makes it sound like you think that you're somehow doing them a favor by occasionally working more than 40 hours to meet deadlines and do releases." If the actual policy or contract only specifically requires 40 hours of work (which sounds to be the case), then they are doing the company a favor.

      – jpmc26
      2 mins ago
















    • 4





      This is a good point. The obvious addendum to this is to tell your boss, "Sure, I don't want to break my flow,, so I'm happy to finish when I hit a convenient break. But if I hit a convenient break at 3:30, I'm OK leaving then, right...?" Flexibility is great, so long as the employer is equally flexible.

      – Graham
      3 hours ago











    • @Graham That's a good point as well.

      – EJoshuaS
      3 hours ago











    • "Your question makes it sound like you think that you're somehow doing them a favor by occasionally working more than 40 hours to meet deadlines and do releases." If the actual policy or contract only specifically requires 40 hours of work (which sounds to be the case), then they are doing the company a favor.

      – jpmc26
      2 mins ago










    4




    4





    This is a good point. The obvious addendum to this is to tell your boss, "Sure, I don't want to break my flow,, so I'm happy to finish when I hit a convenient break. But if I hit a convenient break at 3:30, I'm OK leaving then, right...?" Flexibility is great, so long as the employer is equally flexible.

    – Graham
    3 hours ago





    This is a good point. The obvious addendum to this is to tell your boss, "Sure, I don't want to break my flow,, so I'm happy to finish when I hit a convenient break. But if I hit a convenient break at 3:30, I'm OK leaving then, right...?" Flexibility is great, so long as the employer is equally flexible.

    – Graham
    3 hours ago













    @Graham That's a good point as well.

    – EJoshuaS
    3 hours ago





    @Graham That's a good point as well.

    – EJoshuaS
    3 hours ago













    "Your question makes it sound like you think that you're somehow doing them a favor by occasionally working more than 40 hours to meet deadlines and do releases." If the actual policy or contract only specifically requires 40 hours of work (which sounds to be the case), then they are doing the company a favor.

    – jpmc26
    2 mins ago







    "Your question makes it sound like you think that you're somehow doing them a favor by occasionally working more than 40 hours to meet deadlines and do releases." If the actual policy or contract only specifically requires 40 hours of work (which sounds to be the case), then they are doing the company a favor.

    – jpmc26
    2 mins ago













    1














    Your employer is typically allowed to request you work overtime (within limits).



    However, as far as I know, it is overwhelmingly likely that overtime pay is mandated by law in your province, even if you are salaried. (or the federal government if you live in a territory, I suppose) There are exceptions that vary province-by-province, so check if you are covered. (most relevantly, people with managerial responsibilities may be required to work overtime uncompensated, but that doesn't sound like that is the case with you) Your provincial government's website should have a page detailing overtime laws.



    You should look for new work while working 40 hours a week at your current job. If you acquiesce to "suggestions" for unpaid overtime, also consider consulting a labour lawyer.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    user99410 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.
















    • 3





      "Information Technology Professionals" are exempt at least in all the provinces that contain 'major market cities' for programmers and probably everywhere since I'd imagine the others are also more or less inheriting from the federal tables.

      – Affe
      4 hours ago
















    1














    Your employer is typically allowed to request you work overtime (within limits).



    However, as far as I know, it is overwhelmingly likely that overtime pay is mandated by law in your province, even if you are salaried. (or the federal government if you live in a territory, I suppose) There are exceptions that vary province-by-province, so check if you are covered. (most relevantly, people with managerial responsibilities may be required to work overtime uncompensated, but that doesn't sound like that is the case with you) Your provincial government's website should have a page detailing overtime laws.



    You should look for new work while working 40 hours a week at your current job. If you acquiesce to "suggestions" for unpaid overtime, also consider consulting a labour lawyer.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    user99410 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.
















    • 3





      "Information Technology Professionals" are exempt at least in all the provinces that contain 'major market cities' for programmers and probably everywhere since I'd imagine the others are also more or less inheriting from the federal tables.

      – Affe
      4 hours ago














    1












    1








    1







    Your employer is typically allowed to request you work overtime (within limits).



    However, as far as I know, it is overwhelmingly likely that overtime pay is mandated by law in your province, even if you are salaried. (or the federal government if you live in a territory, I suppose) There are exceptions that vary province-by-province, so check if you are covered. (most relevantly, people with managerial responsibilities may be required to work overtime uncompensated, but that doesn't sound like that is the case with you) Your provincial government's website should have a page detailing overtime laws.



    You should look for new work while working 40 hours a week at your current job. If you acquiesce to "suggestions" for unpaid overtime, also consider consulting a labour lawyer.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    user99410 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.










    Your employer is typically allowed to request you work overtime (within limits).



    However, as far as I know, it is overwhelmingly likely that overtime pay is mandated by law in your province, even if you are salaried. (or the federal government if you live in a territory, I suppose) There are exceptions that vary province-by-province, so check if you are covered. (most relevantly, people with managerial responsibilities may be required to work overtime uncompensated, but that doesn't sound like that is the case with you) Your provincial government's website should have a page detailing overtime laws.



    You should look for new work while working 40 hours a week at your current job. If you acquiesce to "suggestions" for unpaid overtime, also consider consulting a labour lawyer.







    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    user99410 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.









    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer






    New contributor




    user99410 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.









    answered 6 hours ago









    user99410user99410

    111




    111




    New contributor




    user99410 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.





    New contributor





    user99410 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






    user99410 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.








    • 3





      "Information Technology Professionals" are exempt at least in all the provinces that contain 'major market cities' for programmers and probably everywhere since I'd imagine the others are also more or less inheriting from the federal tables.

      – Affe
      4 hours ago














    • 3





      "Information Technology Professionals" are exempt at least in all the provinces that contain 'major market cities' for programmers and probably everywhere since I'd imagine the others are also more or less inheriting from the federal tables.

      – Affe
      4 hours ago








    3




    3





    "Information Technology Professionals" are exempt at least in all the provinces that contain 'major market cities' for programmers and probably everywhere since I'd imagine the others are also more or less inheriting from the federal tables.

    – Affe
    4 hours ago





    "Information Technology Professionals" are exempt at least in all the provinces that contain 'major market cities' for programmers and probably everywhere since I'd imagine the others are also more or less inheriting from the federal tables.

    – Affe
    4 hours ago











    1














    Your manager is giving you a 'heads up' for the second time. If you value your job and want to have good career prospects then take the advice seriously. If you don't, then just carry on ignoring it but expect potential repercussions in terms of remuneration or advancement.



    Is the manager allowed to?



    Yes, he can give you any advice he wants.






    share|improve this answer




























      1














      Your manager is giving you a 'heads up' for the second time. If you value your job and want to have good career prospects then take the advice seriously. If you don't, then just carry on ignoring it but expect potential repercussions in terms of remuneration or advancement.



      Is the manager allowed to?



      Yes, he can give you any advice he wants.






      share|improve this answer


























        1












        1








        1







        Your manager is giving you a 'heads up' for the second time. If you value your job and want to have good career prospects then take the advice seriously. If you don't, then just carry on ignoring it but expect potential repercussions in terms of remuneration or advancement.



        Is the manager allowed to?



        Yes, he can give you any advice he wants.






        share|improve this answer













        Your manager is giving you a 'heads up' for the second time. If you value your job and want to have good career prospects then take the advice seriously. If you don't, then just carry on ignoring it but expect potential repercussions in terms of remuneration or advancement.



        Is the manager allowed to?



        Yes, he can give you any advice he wants.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 2 hours ago









        KilisiKilisi

        117k66256450




        117k66256450






























            draft saved

            draft discarded




















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to The Workplace Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworkplace.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f128554%2fmanagement-strongly-suggest-that-i-do-more-unpaid-overtime-during-performance-re%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown











            Popular posts from this blog

            How to label and detect the document text images

            Vallis Paradisi

            Tabula Rosettana