What did Nebuchadnezzar actually say in Daniel 3:25?












2















In Daniel 3:25, both Young's Literal and Green's Literal give :




... a son of the gods




whereas the KJV gives :




... the son of God.




Young lists the word Elah, as being the Chaldee word which Nebuchadnezzar uttered and I presume that he uttered it in the plural.



But if that were transferred into Hebrew, would he not have said 'Elohim' the plural version, or 'composite' version of the singular 'El' ?



And therefore should it not be translated 'God' as the KJV ?



Is it interpretation to try to figure out what he, himself, at that time in his life, actually knew or believed of God ?



If he uttered a pluralised form, or it might be called a composite form, should it not be translated (despite being Chaldee) in the way in which Elohim is translated into English ?



Also, is the definite article in front of 'son' missing ? If so, why would the KJV have translated it as 'the' ?



I do not wish to wander into interpretations, I am simply trying (despite not being an Hebrew scholar) to understand for myself, what exactly the King said at the time.










share|improve this question

























  • Being a Hebrew scholar won't do you a lot of good for this verse anyway. The whole verse is written in Aramaic.

    – Jack
    3 hours ago













  • I am not an Aramaic expert, but I cant find a definite article anywhere in the Aramaic part of Daniel. I can't find a ה used as "the" (that is what I would expect in Hebrew), but moreso I cannot find anything that is consistently translated as "the". Does Aramaic not have a definite article? Someone correct me if I just can't find it.

    – Jack
    2 hours ago











  • @Jack Aramaic has an emphatic state (next to absolute and construct) which serves this function (and develops into a marker of all important nouns). It is for the masculine (see e.g. ṣalmā in 3:2 vs. ṣəlēm in 3:1; the first is definite; the second not), and -tā for the feminine. (See also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language#Nouns_and_adjectives.)

    – Keelan
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    In 3:25, bar "son" is not in the emphatic state, but it is in construct with a noun which is in either the emphatic or the absolute state (they are the same in the masculine plural). Hence it can literally be translated both "a son of gods" (if elāhīn "gods" is in the absolute state) or "the son of the gods" (if it is in the emphatic state). But as in Hebrew the whole construct chain is either definite or indefinite, you cannot mix and match (so no "a son of the gods" or "the son of (some, unspecified) gods").

    – Keelan
    2 hours ago
















2















In Daniel 3:25, both Young's Literal and Green's Literal give :




... a son of the gods




whereas the KJV gives :




... the son of God.




Young lists the word Elah, as being the Chaldee word which Nebuchadnezzar uttered and I presume that he uttered it in the plural.



But if that were transferred into Hebrew, would he not have said 'Elohim' the plural version, or 'composite' version of the singular 'El' ?



And therefore should it not be translated 'God' as the KJV ?



Is it interpretation to try to figure out what he, himself, at that time in his life, actually knew or believed of God ?



If he uttered a pluralised form, or it might be called a composite form, should it not be translated (despite being Chaldee) in the way in which Elohim is translated into English ?



Also, is the definite article in front of 'son' missing ? If so, why would the KJV have translated it as 'the' ?



I do not wish to wander into interpretations, I am simply trying (despite not being an Hebrew scholar) to understand for myself, what exactly the King said at the time.










share|improve this question

























  • Being a Hebrew scholar won't do you a lot of good for this verse anyway. The whole verse is written in Aramaic.

    – Jack
    3 hours ago













  • I am not an Aramaic expert, but I cant find a definite article anywhere in the Aramaic part of Daniel. I can't find a ה used as "the" (that is what I would expect in Hebrew), but moreso I cannot find anything that is consistently translated as "the". Does Aramaic not have a definite article? Someone correct me if I just can't find it.

    – Jack
    2 hours ago











  • @Jack Aramaic has an emphatic state (next to absolute and construct) which serves this function (and develops into a marker of all important nouns). It is for the masculine (see e.g. ṣalmā in 3:2 vs. ṣəlēm in 3:1; the first is definite; the second not), and -tā for the feminine. (See also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language#Nouns_and_adjectives.)

    – Keelan
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    In 3:25, bar "son" is not in the emphatic state, but it is in construct with a noun which is in either the emphatic or the absolute state (they are the same in the masculine plural). Hence it can literally be translated both "a son of gods" (if elāhīn "gods" is in the absolute state) or "the son of the gods" (if it is in the emphatic state). But as in Hebrew the whole construct chain is either definite or indefinite, you cannot mix and match (so no "a son of the gods" or "the son of (some, unspecified) gods").

    – Keelan
    2 hours ago














2












2








2








In Daniel 3:25, both Young's Literal and Green's Literal give :




... a son of the gods




whereas the KJV gives :




... the son of God.




Young lists the word Elah, as being the Chaldee word which Nebuchadnezzar uttered and I presume that he uttered it in the plural.



But if that were transferred into Hebrew, would he not have said 'Elohim' the plural version, or 'composite' version of the singular 'El' ?



And therefore should it not be translated 'God' as the KJV ?



Is it interpretation to try to figure out what he, himself, at that time in his life, actually knew or believed of God ?



If he uttered a pluralised form, or it might be called a composite form, should it not be translated (despite being Chaldee) in the way in which Elohim is translated into English ?



Also, is the definite article in front of 'son' missing ? If so, why would the KJV have translated it as 'the' ?



I do not wish to wander into interpretations, I am simply trying (despite not being an Hebrew scholar) to understand for myself, what exactly the King said at the time.










share|improve this question
















In Daniel 3:25, both Young's Literal and Green's Literal give :




... a son of the gods




whereas the KJV gives :




... the son of God.




Young lists the word Elah, as being the Chaldee word which Nebuchadnezzar uttered and I presume that he uttered it in the plural.



But if that were transferred into Hebrew, would he not have said 'Elohim' the plural version, or 'composite' version of the singular 'El' ?



And therefore should it not be translated 'God' as the KJV ?



Is it interpretation to try to figure out what he, himself, at that time in his life, actually knew or believed of God ?



If he uttered a pluralised form, or it might be called a composite form, should it not be translated (despite being Chaldee) in the way in which Elohim is translated into English ?



Also, is the definite article in front of 'son' missing ? If so, why would the KJV have translated it as 'the' ?



I do not wish to wander into interpretations, I am simply trying (despite not being an Hebrew scholar) to understand for myself, what exactly the King said at the time.







daniel aramaic






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edited 2 hours ago









Keelan

2,46111130




2,46111130










asked 3 hours ago









Nigel JNigel J

5,365426




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  • Being a Hebrew scholar won't do you a lot of good for this verse anyway. The whole verse is written in Aramaic.

    – Jack
    3 hours ago













  • I am not an Aramaic expert, but I cant find a definite article anywhere in the Aramaic part of Daniel. I can't find a ה used as "the" (that is what I would expect in Hebrew), but moreso I cannot find anything that is consistently translated as "the". Does Aramaic not have a definite article? Someone correct me if I just can't find it.

    – Jack
    2 hours ago











  • @Jack Aramaic has an emphatic state (next to absolute and construct) which serves this function (and develops into a marker of all important nouns). It is for the masculine (see e.g. ṣalmā in 3:2 vs. ṣəlēm in 3:1; the first is definite; the second not), and -tā for the feminine. (See also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language#Nouns_and_adjectives.)

    – Keelan
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    In 3:25, bar "son" is not in the emphatic state, but it is in construct with a noun which is in either the emphatic or the absolute state (they are the same in the masculine plural). Hence it can literally be translated both "a son of gods" (if elāhīn "gods" is in the absolute state) or "the son of the gods" (if it is in the emphatic state). But as in Hebrew the whole construct chain is either definite or indefinite, you cannot mix and match (so no "a son of the gods" or "the son of (some, unspecified) gods").

    – Keelan
    2 hours ago



















  • Being a Hebrew scholar won't do you a lot of good for this verse anyway. The whole verse is written in Aramaic.

    – Jack
    3 hours ago













  • I am not an Aramaic expert, but I cant find a definite article anywhere in the Aramaic part of Daniel. I can't find a ה used as "the" (that is what I would expect in Hebrew), but moreso I cannot find anything that is consistently translated as "the". Does Aramaic not have a definite article? Someone correct me if I just can't find it.

    – Jack
    2 hours ago











  • @Jack Aramaic has an emphatic state (next to absolute and construct) which serves this function (and develops into a marker of all important nouns). It is for the masculine (see e.g. ṣalmā in 3:2 vs. ṣəlēm in 3:1; the first is definite; the second not), and -tā for the feminine. (See also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language#Nouns_and_adjectives.)

    – Keelan
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    In 3:25, bar "son" is not in the emphatic state, but it is in construct with a noun which is in either the emphatic or the absolute state (they are the same in the masculine plural). Hence it can literally be translated both "a son of gods" (if elāhīn "gods" is in the absolute state) or "the son of the gods" (if it is in the emphatic state). But as in Hebrew the whole construct chain is either definite or indefinite, you cannot mix and match (so no "a son of the gods" or "the son of (some, unspecified) gods").

    – Keelan
    2 hours ago

















Being a Hebrew scholar won't do you a lot of good for this verse anyway. The whole verse is written in Aramaic.

– Jack
3 hours ago







Being a Hebrew scholar won't do you a lot of good for this verse anyway. The whole verse is written in Aramaic.

– Jack
3 hours ago















I am not an Aramaic expert, but I cant find a definite article anywhere in the Aramaic part of Daniel. I can't find a ה used as "the" (that is what I would expect in Hebrew), but moreso I cannot find anything that is consistently translated as "the". Does Aramaic not have a definite article? Someone correct me if I just can't find it.

– Jack
2 hours ago





I am not an Aramaic expert, but I cant find a definite article anywhere in the Aramaic part of Daniel. I can't find a ה used as "the" (that is what I would expect in Hebrew), but moreso I cannot find anything that is consistently translated as "the". Does Aramaic not have a definite article? Someone correct me if I just can't find it.

– Jack
2 hours ago













@Jack Aramaic has an emphatic state (next to absolute and construct) which serves this function (and develops into a marker of all important nouns). It is for the masculine (see e.g. ṣalmā in 3:2 vs. ṣəlēm in 3:1; the first is definite; the second not), and -tā for the feminine. (See also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language#Nouns_and_adjectives.)

– Keelan
2 hours ago





@Jack Aramaic has an emphatic state (next to absolute and construct) which serves this function (and develops into a marker of all important nouns). It is for the masculine (see e.g. ṣalmā in 3:2 vs. ṣəlēm in 3:1; the first is definite; the second not), and -tā for the feminine. (See also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language#Nouns_and_adjectives.)

– Keelan
2 hours ago




1




1





In 3:25, bar "son" is not in the emphatic state, but it is in construct with a noun which is in either the emphatic or the absolute state (they are the same in the masculine plural). Hence it can literally be translated both "a son of gods" (if elāhīn "gods" is in the absolute state) or "the son of the gods" (if it is in the emphatic state). But as in Hebrew the whole construct chain is either definite or indefinite, you cannot mix and match (so no "a son of the gods" or "the son of (some, unspecified) gods").

– Keelan
2 hours ago





In 3:25, bar "son" is not in the emphatic state, but it is in construct with a noun which is in either the emphatic or the absolute state (they are the same in the masculine plural). Hence it can literally be translated both "a son of gods" (if elāhīn "gods" is in the absolute state) or "the son of the gods" (if it is in the emphatic state). But as in Hebrew the whole construct chain is either definite or indefinite, you cannot mix and match (so no "a son of the gods" or "the son of (some, unspecified) gods").

– Keelan
2 hours ago










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In Aramaic, אלה 'elāh is the general word for "(a) god". When a particular god is meant, the noun is in the emphatic state, אלהא 'elāhā' "the god". The plural אלהין 'elāhīn "(the/some) gods" is used only for groups of gods, as Niehr wrote in his lemma of אלה in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (vol. XVI, pp. 33, 37):




For the use of 'elāh in Biblical Aramaic, one must emphasize fundamentally that the plural 'elāhîn or 'elāhayyā' always means "(the) gods" and is not comparable to Hebrew 'elōhîm "God." — p. 37




To explain why: Aramaic was a thriving language at the time that Biblical Aramaic came forth from so-called "Imperial Aramaic", and Biblical Aramaic came into existence in a highly pluralistic context where אלהין (the Aramaic plural) could be used for e.g. the Persian pantheon. Furthermore, Hebrew אלהים had become almost like a personal name. It is therefore not odd that אלהים was not translated into Biblical Aramaic (because names are rarely translated, and because this would suggest a polytheistic perspective which the biblical authors wanted to avoid).



According to Rosenthal (A Grammar of Biblical Aramaic7, §47) a construct chain such as בר־אלהין in 3:25 is either fully determined ("the son of the gods") or fully undetermined ("a son of some gods"). He argues that "a X of the Y" would be expressed with X in absolute state followed by the preposition ל and Y, as in מלך לישראל "a king of Israel" in Ezra 5:11. However, he suggests to read בר־אלהין in Daniel 3:25 as "a divine being", because בר "son" may also be used to indicate class membership (just as בני־ישראל "the sons of Israel" means "the Israelites").



I agree with Rosenthal and would read Daniel 3:25 also as "a divine being". This is similar to the translation Niehr gives (p. 37): "a divine one" with (3:25); "(holy) divine spirit" with רוח in 4:5f.,15; 5:11,14; "divine wisdom" with חכמה in 5:11. This is in contrast to the Babylonian gods (2:11; 3:12,14,18; 5:4,23).



The conversion of Nebuchadnezzar takes place after 3:25, namely between that verse and the following, in which he addresses Daniel's companions as servants of אלהא עליא "the Most High God". Here, אלהא is in singular and emphatic, i.e., "the god". This is the moment where Nebuchadnezzar exchanges his previous polytheistic point of view for a monotheistic one.






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    In Aramaic, אלה 'elāh is the general word for "(a) god". When a particular god is meant, the noun is in the emphatic state, אלהא 'elāhā' "the god". The plural אלהין 'elāhīn "(the/some) gods" is used only for groups of gods, as Niehr wrote in his lemma of אלה in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (vol. XVI, pp. 33, 37):




    For the use of 'elāh in Biblical Aramaic, one must emphasize fundamentally that the plural 'elāhîn or 'elāhayyā' always means "(the) gods" and is not comparable to Hebrew 'elōhîm "God." — p. 37




    To explain why: Aramaic was a thriving language at the time that Biblical Aramaic came forth from so-called "Imperial Aramaic", and Biblical Aramaic came into existence in a highly pluralistic context where אלהין (the Aramaic plural) could be used for e.g. the Persian pantheon. Furthermore, Hebrew אלהים had become almost like a personal name. It is therefore not odd that אלהים was not translated into Biblical Aramaic (because names are rarely translated, and because this would suggest a polytheistic perspective which the biblical authors wanted to avoid).



    According to Rosenthal (A Grammar of Biblical Aramaic7, §47) a construct chain such as בר־אלהין in 3:25 is either fully determined ("the son of the gods") or fully undetermined ("a son of some gods"). He argues that "a X of the Y" would be expressed with X in absolute state followed by the preposition ל and Y, as in מלך לישראל "a king of Israel" in Ezra 5:11. However, he suggests to read בר־אלהין in Daniel 3:25 as "a divine being", because בר "son" may also be used to indicate class membership (just as בני־ישראל "the sons of Israel" means "the Israelites").



    I agree with Rosenthal and would read Daniel 3:25 also as "a divine being". This is similar to the translation Niehr gives (p. 37): "a divine one" with (3:25); "(holy) divine spirit" with רוח in 4:5f.,15; 5:11,14; "divine wisdom" with חכמה in 5:11. This is in contrast to the Babylonian gods (2:11; 3:12,14,18; 5:4,23).



    The conversion of Nebuchadnezzar takes place after 3:25, namely between that verse and the following, in which he addresses Daniel's companions as servants of אלהא עליא "the Most High God". Here, אלהא is in singular and emphatic, i.e., "the god". This is the moment where Nebuchadnezzar exchanges his previous polytheistic point of view for a monotheistic one.






    share|improve this answer






























      2














      In Aramaic, אלה 'elāh is the general word for "(a) god". When a particular god is meant, the noun is in the emphatic state, אלהא 'elāhā' "the god". The plural אלהין 'elāhīn "(the/some) gods" is used only for groups of gods, as Niehr wrote in his lemma of אלה in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (vol. XVI, pp. 33, 37):




      For the use of 'elāh in Biblical Aramaic, one must emphasize fundamentally that the plural 'elāhîn or 'elāhayyā' always means "(the) gods" and is not comparable to Hebrew 'elōhîm "God." — p. 37




      To explain why: Aramaic was a thriving language at the time that Biblical Aramaic came forth from so-called "Imperial Aramaic", and Biblical Aramaic came into existence in a highly pluralistic context where אלהין (the Aramaic plural) could be used for e.g. the Persian pantheon. Furthermore, Hebrew אלהים had become almost like a personal name. It is therefore not odd that אלהים was not translated into Biblical Aramaic (because names are rarely translated, and because this would suggest a polytheistic perspective which the biblical authors wanted to avoid).



      According to Rosenthal (A Grammar of Biblical Aramaic7, §47) a construct chain such as בר־אלהין in 3:25 is either fully determined ("the son of the gods") or fully undetermined ("a son of some gods"). He argues that "a X of the Y" would be expressed with X in absolute state followed by the preposition ל and Y, as in מלך לישראל "a king of Israel" in Ezra 5:11. However, he suggests to read בר־אלהין in Daniel 3:25 as "a divine being", because בר "son" may also be used to indicate class membership (just as בני־ישראל "the sons of Israel" means "the Israelites").



      I agree with Rosenthal and would read Daniel 3:25 also as "a divine being". This is similar to the translation Niehr gives (p. 37): "a divine one" with (3:25); "(holy) divine spirit" with רוח in 4:5f.,15; 5:11,14; "divine wisdom" with חכמה in 5:11. This is in contrast to the Babylonian gods (2:11; 3:12,14,18; 5:4,23).



      The conversion of Nebuchadnezzar takes place after 3:25, namely between that verse and the following, in which he addresses Daniel's companions as servants of אלהא עליא "the Most High God". Here, אלהא is in singular and emphatic, i.e., "the god". This is the moment where Nebuchadnezzar exchanges his previous polytheistic point of view for a monotheistic one.






      share|improve this answer




























        2












        2








        2







        In Aramaic, אלה 'elāh is the general word for "(a) god". When a particular god is meant, the noun is in the emphatic state, אלהא 'elāhā' "the god". The plural אלהין 'elāhīn "(the/some) gods" is used only for groups of gods, as Niehr wrote in his lemma of אלה in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (vol. XVI, pp. 33, 37):




        For the use of 'elāh in Biblical Aramaic, one must emphasize fundamentally that the plural 'elāhîn or 'elāhayyā' always means "(the) gods" and is not comparable to Hebrew 'elōhîm "God." — p. 37




        To explain why: Aramaic was a thriving language at the time that Biblical Aramaic came forth from so-called "Imperial Aramaic", and Biblical Aramaic came into existence in a highly pluralistic context where אלהין (the Aramaic plural) could be used for e.g. the Persian pantheon. Furthermore, Hebrew אלהים had become almost like a personal name. It is therefore not odd that אלהים was not translated into Biblical Aramaic (because names are rarely translated, and because this would suggest a polytheistic perspective which the biblical authors wanted to avoid).



        According to Rosenthal (A Grammar of Biblical Aramaic7, §47) a construct chain such as בר־אלהין in 3:25 is either fully determined ("the son of the gods") or fully undetermined ("a son of some gods"). He argues that "a X of the Y" would be expressed with X in absolute state followed by the preposition ל and Y, as in מלך לישראל "a king of Israel" in Ezra 5:11. However, he suggests to read בר־אלהין in Daniel 3:25 as "a divine being", because בר "son" may also be used to indicate class membership (just as בני־ישראל "the sons of Israel" means "the Israelites").



        I agree with Rosenthal and would read Daniel 3:25 also as "a divine being". This is similar to the translation Niehr gives (p. 37): "a divine one" with (3:25); "(holy) divine spirit" with רוח in 4:5f.,15; 5:11,14; "divine wisdom" with חכמה in 5:11. This is in contrast to the Babylonian gods (2:11; 3:12,14,18; 5:4,23).



        The conversion of Nebuchadnezzar takes place after 3:25, namely between that verse and the following, in which he addresses Daniel's companions as servants of אלהא עליא "the Most High God". Here, אלהא is in singular and emphatic, i.e., "the god". This is the moment where Nebuchadnezzar exchanges his previous polytheistic point of view for a monotheistic one.






        share|improve this answer















        In Aramaic, אלה 'elāh is the general word for "(a) god". When a particular god is meant, the noun is in the emphatic state, אלהא 'elāhā' "the god". The plural אלהין 'elāhīn "(the/some) gods" is used only for groups of gods, as Niehr wrote in his lemma of אלה in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (vol. XVI, pp. 33, 37):




        For the use of 'elāh in Biblical Aramaic, one must emphasize fundamentally that the plural 'elāhîn or 'elāhayyā' always means "(the) gods" and is not comparable to Hebrew 'elōhîm "God." — p. 37




        To explain why: Aramaic was a thriving language at the time that Biblical Aramaic came forth from so-called "Imperial Aramaic", and Biblical Aramaic came into existence in a highly pluralistic context where אלהין (the Aramaic plural) could be used for e.g. the Persian pantheon. Furthermore, Hebrew אלהים had become almost like a personal name. It is therefore not odd that אלהים was not translated into Biblical Aramaic (because names are rarely translated, and because this would suggest a polytheistic perspective which the biblical authors wanted to avoid).



        According to Rosenthal (A Grammar of Biblical Aramaic7, §47) a construct chain such as בר־אלהין in 3:25 is either fully determined ("the son of the gods") or fully undetermined ("a son of some gods"). He argues that "a X of the Y" would be expressed with X in absolute state followed by the preposition ל and Y, as in מלך לישראל "a king of Israel" in Ezra 5:11. However, he suggests to read בר־אלהין in Daniel 3:25 as "a divine being", because בר "son" may also be used to indicate class membership (just as בני־ישראל "the sons of Israel" means "the Israelites").



        I agree with Rosenthal and would read Daniel 3:25 also as "a divine being". This is similar to the translation Niehr gives (p. 37): "a divine one" with (3:25); "(holy) divine spirit" with רוח in 4:5f.,15; 5:11,14; "divine wisdom" with חכמה in 5:11. This is in contrast to the Babylonian gods (2:11; 3:12,14,18; 5:4,23).



        The conversion of Nebuchadnezzar takes place after 3:25, namely between that verse and the following, in which he addresses Daniel's companions as servants of אלהא עליא "the Most High God". Here, אלהא is in singular and emphatic, i.e., "the god". This is the moment where Nebuchadnezzar exchanges his previous polytheistic point of view for a monotheistic one.







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        KeelanKeelan

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