What is the group of thanes surrounding a king?












1















I'm writing a fantasy book and it suddenly occurred to me that I had forgotten the name of the group of thanes that surrounded the king in Anglo-Saxon (or was it Celtic?) culture. As far as I know, how it worked was that the King would have a group of notable warriors in his tribe (thanes) surrounding him to do his bidding, and they would meet in the mede hall and party and all that. But I can't remember what the heck that group of thanes was called.



Anybody remember this or know about the Beowulf culture enough to know?










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  • 2





    You might get better answers at History.SE

    – Jason Baker
    May 9 '15 at 21:50











  • Are you simply wanting the collective noun for a group of thanes or are you asking specifically about Beowulf (e.g. the poem or the film).

    – Valorum
    May 9 '15 at 22:05













  • The names that come to mind (from reading wargaming forums -- I'm no expert!) are hird, fyrd and housecarls, but I don't think they're exactly the term you're looking form.

    – Andres F.
    May 9 '15 at 22:26













  • @JasonBaker I'm wanting the specific term. but whatever Beowulf the poem says is nice too!

    – mkrell
    May 9 '15 at 23:17






  • 1





    There is now a Mythology Stack Exchange. There is no need to migrate this question, but future readers should be aware and can post questions like this there.

    – durron597
    May 12 '15 at 19:28
















1















I'm writing a fantasy book and it suddenly occurred to me that I had forgotten the name of the group of thanes that surrounded the king in Anglo-Saxon (or was it Celtic?) culture. As far as I know, how it worked was that the King would have a group of notable warriors in his tribe (thanes) surrounding him to do his bidding, and they would meet in the mede hall and party and all that. But I can't remember what the heck that group of thanes was called.



Anybody remember this or know about the Beowulf culture enough to know?










share|improve this question




















  • 2





    You might get better answers at History.SE

    – Jason Baker
    May 9 '15 at 21:50











  • Are you simply wanting the collective noun for a group of thanes or are you asking specifically about Beowulf (e.g. the poem or the film).

    – Valorum
    May 9 '15 at 22:05













  • The names that come to mind (from reading wargaming forums -- I'm no expert!) are hird, fyrd and housecarls, but I don't think they're exactly the term you're looking form.

    – Andres F.
    May 9 '15 at 22:26













  • @JasonBaker I'm wanting the specific term. but whatever Beowulf the poem says is nice too!

    – mkrell
    May 9 '15 at 23:17






  • 1





    There is now a Mythology Stack Exchange. There is no need to migrate this question, but future readers should be aware and can post questions like this there.

    – durron597
    May 12 '15 at 19:28














1












1








1


2






I'm writing a fantasy book and it suddenly occurred to me that I had forgotten the name of the group of thanes that surrounded the king in Anglo-Saxon (or was it Celtic?) culture. As far as I know, how it worked was that the King would have a group of notable warriors in his tribe (thanes) surrounding him to do his bidding, and they would meet in the mede hall and party and all that. But I can't remember what the heck that group of thanes was called.



Anybody remember this or know about the Beowulf culture enough to know?










share|improve this question
















I'm writing a fantasy book and it suddenly occurred to me that I had forgotten the name of the group of thanes that surrounded the king in Anglo-Saxon (or was it Celtic?) culture. As far as I know, how it worked was that the King would have a group of notable warriors in his tribe (thanes) surrounding him to do his bidding, and they would meet in the mede hall and party and all that. But I can't remember what the heck that group of thanes was called.



Anybody remember this or know about the Beowulf culture enough to know?







beowulf






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited May 9 '15 at 21:50









Valorum

398k10328973129




398k10328973129










asked May 9 '15 at 21:42









mkrellmkrell

82




82








  • 2





    You might get better answers at History.SE

    – Jason Baker
    May 9 '15 at 21:50











  • Are you simply wanting the collective noun for a group of thanes or are you asking specifically about Beowulf (e.g. the poem or the film).

    – Valorum
    May 9 '15 at 22:05













  • The names that come to mind (from reading wargaming forums -- I'm no expert!) are hird, fyrd and housecarls, but I don't think they're exactly the term you're looking form.

    – Andres F.
    May 9 '15 at 22:26













  • @JasonBaker I'm wanting the specific term. but whatever Beowulf the poem says is nice too!

    – mkrell
    May 9 '15 at 23:17






  • 1





    There is now a Mythology Stack Exchange. There is no need to migrate this question, but future readers should be aware and can post questions like this there.

    – durron597
    May 12 '15 at 19:28














  • 2





    You might get better answers at History.SE

    – Jason Baker
    May 9 '15 at 21:50











  • Are you simply wanting the collective noun for a group of thanes or are you asking specifically about Beowulf (e.g. the poem or the film).

    – Valorum
    May 9 '15 at 22:05













  • The names that come to mind (from reading wargaming forums -- I'm no expert!) are hird, fyrd and housecarls, but I don't think they're exactly the term you're looking form.

    – Andres F.
    May 9 '15 at 22:26













  • @JasonBaker I'm wanting the specific term. but whatever Beowulf the poem says is nice too!

    – mkrell
    May 9 '15 at 23:17






  • 1





    There is now a Mythology Stack Exchange. There is no need to migrate this question, but future readers should be aware and can post questions like this there.

    – durron597
    May 12 '15 at 19:28








2




2





You might get better answers at History.SE

– Jason Baker
May 9 '15 at 21:50





You might get better answers at History.SE

– Jason Baker
May 9 '15 at 21:50













Are you simply wanting the collective noun for a group of thanes or are you asking specifically about Beowulf (e.g. the poem or the film).

– Valorum
May 9 '15 at 22:05







Are you simply wanting the collective noun for a group of thanes or are you asking specifically about Beowulf (e.g. the poem or the film).

– Valorum
May 9 '15 at 22:05















The names that come to mind (from reading wargaming forums -- I'm no expert!) are hird, fyrd and housecarls, but I don't think they're exactly the term you're looking form.

– Andres F.
May 9 '15 at 22:26







The names that come to mind (from reading wargaming forums -- I'm no expert!) are hird, fyrd and housecarls, but I don't think they're exactly the term you're looking form.

– Andres F.
May 9 '15 at 22:26















@JasonBaker I'm wanting the specific term. but whatever Beowulf the poem says is nice too!

– mkrell
May 9 '15 at 23:17





@JasonBaker I'm wanting the specific term. but whatever Beowulf the poem says is nice too!

– mkrell
May 9 '15 at 23:17




1




1





There is now a Mythology Stack Exchange. There is no need to migrate this question, but future readers should be aware and can post questions like this there.

– durron597
May 12 '15 at 19:28





There is now a Mythology Stack Exchange. There is no need to migrate this question, but future readers should be aware and can post questions like this there.

– durron597
May 12 '15 at 19:28










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















5














The Anglo-Saxon social structure consisted of tribal units led by chieftains ("kings," or "lords") who, theoretically at least, earned their respect from their warriors (or "retainers," or "thanes," the group being called a "comitatus").





  • Comitatus was a Germanic friendship structure that compelled kings to rule in consultation with their warriors, forming a warband. The comitatus, as described in the Roman historian Tacitus's treatise Germania (98.AD), is the bond existing between a Germanic warrior and his Lord, ensuring that neither leaves the field of battle before the other.




The translation is as follows:





  • Moreover, to survive the leader and retreat from the battlefield is a lifelong disgrace and infamy Comitatus, being the agreement between a Germanic lord and his subservients (his Gefolge or host of followers), is a special case of clientage and the direct source of the practice of feudalism.




Source: Michael Delahoyde, Washington State University: Anglo Saxon Culture






share|improve this answer


























  • Comitatus... yeah I think that's right! Been a while since I heard it so it's still coming back, but I think that's right.

    – mkrell
    May 9 '15 at 23:19











  • From which, I suspect, comes the word "committee"?

    – VBartilucci
    Jan 14 at 15:47



















3














Heorðgenéatas and þegns



The actual Old English word repeatedly used in Beowulf is heorðgenéatas, which translates literally to 'hearth-companions', or alternatively gesíð (gesith) or gesteallum, which also translate as 'companion'.



þegn (thegn, or thane) can mean 'retainer' or 'servant', but came more generally to mean a minor member of the landed aristocracy, as described in Geþyncðo (Dignities):




"And if a ceorl throve, so that he had fully five hides of his own land, church and kitchen, bellhouse and burh-gate-seat, and special duty in the king's hail, then was he thenceforth of thegn-right worthy."




Thus, every heorðgenéat was a þegn, but not every þegn was a heorðgenéat.



Comitatus



There are two problems with using the term comitatus to describe a group of Scandinavian warriors (despite being a famous English work, Beowulf is set in Denmark):
firstly, it's a Latin term and thus definitely not what the people themselves would have said, and secondly it's used at least 400 years prior to the writing of Beowulf, and to describe a different culture. This is about as accurate as describing them as knights.



Huscarls (housecarls)



A related term which comes into use late in the Anglo Saxon period to describe an elite group of warriors surrounding a king or lord is huscarl - these were not thegns as they held no land, and were instead paid in coin.






share|improve this answer
























  • Thank you, I didn't know comitatus is a latin word

    – mkrell
    Jan 15 at 14:11



















2














In the classic Beowulf (Lesslie Hall translation), they're literally referred to as the King's "thanemen"




Misery knew not. The monster of evil

Greedy and cruel tarried but little,

He drags off thirty of them, and devours them

Fell and frantic, and forced from their slumbers
Thirty of thanemen; thence he departed

Leaping and laughing, his lair to return to,

With surfeit of slaughter sallying homeward.




...




The strength-famous went till he stood at the shoulder

Of the lord of the Danemen, of courteous thanemen

The custom he minded. Wulfgar addressed then

His friendly liegelord: “Folk of the Geatmen

He thereupon urges his liegelord to receive the visitors courteously.

O’er the way of the waters are wafted hither,




You can see it used in (real-world) context here in A History of Shrewsbury by Hugh Owen.



enter image description here






share|improve this answer

























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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    5














    The Anglo-Saxon social structure consisted of tribal units led by chieftains ("kings," or "lords") who, theoretically at least, earned their respect from their warriors (or "retainers," or "thanes," the group being called a "comitatus").





    • Comitatus was a Germanic friendship structure that compelled kings to rule in consultation with their warriors, forming a warband. The comitatus, as described in the Roman historian Tacitus's treatise Germania (98.AD), is the bond existing between a Germanic warrior and his Lord, ensuring that neither leaves the field of battle before the other.




    The translation is as follows:





    • Moreover, to survive the leader and retreat from the battlefield is a lifelong disgrace and infamy Comitatus, being the agreement between a Germanic lord and his subservients (his Gefolge or host of followers), is a special case of clientage and the direct source of the practice of feudalism.




    Source: Michael Delahoyde, Washington State University: Anglo Saxon Culture






    share|improve this answer


























    • Comitatus... yeah I think that's right! Been a while since I heard it so it's still coming back, but I think that's right.

      – mkrell
      May 9 '15 at 23:19











    • From which, I suspect, comes the word "committee"?

      – VBartilucci
      Jan 14 at 15:47
















    5














    The Anglo-Saxon social structure consisted of tribal units led by chieftains ("kings," or "lords") who, theoretically at least, earned their respect from their warriors (or "retainers," or "thanes," the group being called a "comitatus").





    • Comitatus was a Germanic friendship structure that compelled kings to rule in consultation with their warriors, forming a warband. The comitatus, as described in the Roman historian Tacitus's treatise Germania (98.AD), is the bond existing between a Germanic warrior and his Lord, ensuring that neither leaves the field of battle before the other.




    The translation is as follows:





    • Moreover, to survive the leader and retreat from the battlefield is a lifelong disgrace and infamy Comitatus, being the agreement between a Germanic lord and his subservients (his Gefolge or host of followers), is a special case of clientage and the direct source of the practice of feudalism.




    Source: Michael Delahoyde, Washington State University: Anglo Saxon Culture






    share|improve this answer


























    • Comitatus... yeah I think that's right! Been a while since I heard it so it's still coming back, but I think that's right.

      – mkrell
      May 9 '15 at 23:19











    • From which, I suspect, comes the word "committee"?

      – VBartilucci
      Jan 14 at 15:47














    5












    5








    5







    The Anglo-Saxon social structure consisted of tribal units led by chieftains ("kings," or "lords") who, theoretically at least, earned their respect from their warriors (or "retainers," or "thanes," the group being called a "comitatus").





    • Comitatus was a Germanic friendship structure that compelled kings to rule in consultation with their warriors, forming a warband. The comitatus, as described in the Roman historian Tacitus's treatise Germania (98.AD), is the bond existing between a Germanic warrior and his Lord, ensuring that neither leaves the field of battle before the other.




    The translation is as follows:





    • Moreover, to survive the leader and retreat from the battlefield is a lifelong disgrace and infamy Comitatus, being the agreement between a Germanic lord and his subservients (his Gefolge or host of followers), is a special case of clientage and the direct source of the practice of feudalism.




    Source: Michael Delahoyde, Washington State University: Anglo Saxon Culture






    share|improve this answer















    The Anglo-Saxon social structure consisted of tribal units led by chieftains ("kings," or "lords") who, theoretically at least, earned their respect from their warriors (or "retainers," or "thanes," the group being called a "comitatus").





    • Comitatus was a Germanic friendship structure that compelled kings to rule in consultation with their warriors, forming a warband. The comitatus, as described in the Roman historian Tacitus's treatise Germania (98.AD), is the bond existing between a Germanic warrior and his Lord, ensuring that neither leaves the field of battle before the other.




    The translation is as follows:





    • Moreover, to survive the leader and retreat from the battlefield is a lifelong disgrace and infamy Comitatus, being the agreement between a Germanic lord and his subservients (his Gefolge or host of followers), is a special case of clientage and the direct source of the practice of feudalism.




    Source: Michael Delahoyde, Washington State University: Anglo Saxon Culture







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited May 9 '15 at 22:04

























    answered May 9 '15 at 21:56









    Thaddeus HowzeThaddeus Howze

    194k18611912




    194k18611912













    • Comitatus... yeah I think that's right! Been a while since I heard it so it's still coming back, but I think that's right.

      – mkrell
      May 9 '15 at 23:19











    • From which, I suspect, comes the word "committee"?

      – VBartilucci
      Jan 14 at 15:47



















    • Comitatus... yeah I think that's right! Been a while since I heard it so it's still coming back, but I think that's right.

      – mkrell
      May 9 '15 at 23:19











    • From which, I suspect, comes the word "committee"?

      – VBartilucci
      Jan 14 at 15:47

















    Comitatus... yeah I think that's right! Been a while since I heard it so it's still coming back, but I think that's right.

    – mkrell
    May 9 '15 at 23:19





    Comitatus... yeah I think that's right! Been a while since I heard it so it's still coming back, but I think that's right.

    – mkrell
    May 9 '15 at 23:19













    From which, I suspect, comes the word "committee"?

    – VBartilucci
    Jan 14 at 15:47





    From which, I suspect, comes the word "committee"?

    – VBartilucci
    Jan 14 at 15:47













    3














    Heorðgenéatas and þegns



    The actual Old English word repeatedly used in Beowulf is heorðgenéatas, which translates literally to 'hearth-companions', or alternatively gesíð (gesith) or gesteallum, which also translate as 'companion'.



    þegn (thegn, or thane) can mean 'retainer' or 'servant', but came more generally to mean a minor member of the landed aristocracy, as described in Geþyncðo (Dignities):




    "And if a ceorl throve, so that he had fully five hides of his own land, church and kitchen, bellhouse and burh-gate-seat, and special duty in the king's hail, then was he thenceforth of thegn-right worthy."




    Thus, every heorðgenéat was a þegn, but not every þegn was a heorðgenéat.



    Comitatus



    There are two problems with using the term comitatus to describe a group of Scandinavian warriors (despite being a famous English work, Beowulf is set in Denmark):
    firstly, it's a Latin term and thus definitely not what the people themselves would have said, and secondly it's used at least 400 years prior to the writing of Beowulf, and to describe a different culture. This is about as accurate as describing them as knights.



    Huscarls (housecarls)



    A related term which comes into use late in the Anglo Saxon period to describe an elite group of warriors surrounding a king or lord is huscarl - these were not thegns as they held no land, and were instead paid in coin.






    share|improve this answer
























    • Thank you, I didn't know comitatus is a latin word

      – mkrell
      Jan 15 at 14:11
















    3














    Heorðgenéatas and þegns



    The actual Old English word repeatedly used in Beowulf is heorðgenéatas, which translates literally to 'hearth-companions', or alternatively gesíð (gesith) or gesteallum, which also translate as 'companion'.



    þegn (thegn, or thane) can mean 'retainer' or 'servant', but came more generally to mean a minor member of the landed aristocracy, as described in Geþyncðo (Dignities):




    "And if a ceorl throve, so that he had fully five hides of his own land, church and kitchen, bellhouse and burh-gate-seat, and special duty in the king's hail, then was he thenceforth of thegn-right worthy."




    Thus, every heorðgenéat was a þegn, but not every þegn was a heorðgenéat.



    Comitatus



    There are two problems with using the term comitatus to describe a group of Scandinavian warriors (despite being a famous English work, Beowulf is set in Denmark):
    firstly, it's a Latin term and thus definitely not what the people themselves would have said, and secondly it's used at least 400 years prior to the writing of Beowulf, and to describe a different culture. This is about as accurate as describing them as knights.



    Huscarls (housecarls)



    A related term which comes into use late in the Anglo Saxon period to describe an elite group of warriors surrounding a king or lord is huscarl - these were not thegns as they held no land, and were instead paid in coin.






    share|improve this answer
























    • Thank you, I didn't know comitatus is a latin word

      – mkrell
      Jan 15 at 14:11














    3












    3








    3







    Heorðgenéatas and þegns



    The actual Old English word repeatedly used in Beowulf is heorðgenéatas, which translates literally to 'hearth-companions', or alternatively gesíð (gesith) or gesteallum, which also translate as 'companion'.



    þegn (thegn, or thane) can mean 'retainer' or 'servant', but came more generally to mean a minor member of the landed aristocracy, as described in Geþyncðo (Dignities):




    "And if a ceorl throve, so that he had fully five hides of his own land, church and kitchen, bellhouse and burh-gate-seat, and special duty in the king's hail, then was he thenceforth of thegn-right worthy."




    Thus, every heorðgenéat was a þegn, but not every þegn was a heorðgenéat.



    Comitatus



    There are two problems with using the term comitatus to describe a group of Scandinavian warriors (despite being a famous English work, Beowulf is set in Denmark):
    firstly, it's a Latin term and thus definitely not what the people themselves would have said, and secondly it's used at least 400 years prior to the writing of Beowulf, and to describe a different culture. This is about as accurate as describing them as knights.



    Huscarls (housecarls)



    A related term which comes into use late in the Anglo Saxon period to describe an elite group of warriors surrounding a king or lord is huscarl - these were not thegns as they held no land, and were instead paid in coin.






    share|improve this answer













    Heorðgenéatas and þegns



    The actual Old English word repeatedly used in Beowulf is heorðgenéatas, which translates literally to 'hearth-companions', or alternatively gesíð (gesith) or gesteallum, which also translate as 'companion'.



    þegn (thegn, or thane) can mean 'retainer' or 'servant', but came more generally to mean a minor member of the landed aristocracy, as described in Geþyncðo (Dignities):




    "And if a ceorl throve, so that he had fully five hides of his own land, church and kitchen, bellhouse and burh-gate-seat, and special duty in the king's hail, then was he thenceforth of thegn-right worthy."




    Thus, every heorðgenéat was a þegn, but not every þegn was a heorðgenéat.



    Comitatus



    There are two problems with using the term comitatus to describe a group of Scandinavian warriors (despite being a famous English work, Beowulf is set in Denmark):
    firstly, it's a Latin term and thus definitely not what the people themselves would have said, and secondly it's used at least 400 years prior to the writing of Beowulf, and to describe a different culture. This is about as accurate as describing them as knights.



    Huscarls (housecarls)



    A related term which comes into use late in the Anglo Saxon period to describe an elite group of warriors surrounding a king or lord is huscarl - these were not thegns as they held no land, and were instead paid in coin.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered Jan 14 at 11:01









    walruswalrus

    40835




    40835













    • Thank you, I didn't know comitatus is a latin word

      – mkrell
      Jan 15 at 14:11



















    • Thank you, I didn't know comitatus is a latin word

      – mkrell
      Jan 15 at 14:11

















    Thank you, I didn't know comitatus is a latin word

    – mkrell
    Jan 15 at 14:11





    Thank you, I didn't know comitatus is a latin word

    – mkrell
    Jan 15 at 14:11











    2














    In the classic Beowulf (Lesslie Hall translation), they're literally referred to as the King's "thanemen"




    Misery knew not. The monster of evil

    Greedy and cruel tarried but little,

    He drags off thirty of them, and devours them

    Fell and frantic, and forced from their slumbers
    Thirty of thanemen; thence he departed

    Leaping and laughing, his lair to return to,

    With surfeit of slaughter sallying homeward.




    ...




    The strength-famous went till he stood at the shoulder

    Of the lord of the Danemen, of courteous thanemen

    The custom he minded. Wulfgar addressed then

    His friendly liegelord: “Folk of the Geatmen

    He thereupon urges his liegelord to receive the visitors courteously.

    O’er the way of the waters are wafted hither,




    You can see it used in (real-world) context here in A History of Shrewsbury by Hugh Owen.



    enter image description here






    share|improve this answer






























      2














      In the classic Beowulf (Lesslie Hall translation), they're literally referred to as the King's "thanemen"




      Misery knew not. The monster of evil

      Greedy and cruel tarried but little,

      He drags off thirty of them, and devours them

      Fell and frantic, and forced from their slumbers
      Thirty of thanemen; thence he departed

      Leaping and laughing, his lair to return to,

      With surfeit of slaughter sallying homeward.




      ...




      The strength-famous went till he stood at the shoulder

      Of the lord of the Danemen, of courteous thanemen

      The custom he minded. Wulfgar addressed then

      His friendly liegelord: “Folk of the Geatmen

      He thereupon urges his liegelord to receive the visitors courteously.

      O’er the way of the waters are wafted hither,




      You can see it used in (real-world) context here in A History of Shrewsbury by Hugh Owen.



      enter image description here






      share|improve this answer




























        2












        2








        2







        In the classic Beowulf (Lesslie Hall translation), they're literally referred to as the King's "thanemen"




        Misery knew not. The monster of evil

        Greedy and cruel tarried but little,

        He drags off thirty of them, and devours them

        Fell and frantic, and forced from their slumbers
        Thirty of thanemen; thence he departed

        Leaping and laughing, his lair to return to,

        With surfeit of slaughter sallying homeward.




        ...




        The strength-famous went till he stood at the shoulder

        Of the lord of the Danemen, of courteous thanemen

        The custom he minded. Wulfgar addressed then

        His friendly liegelord: “Folk of the Geatmen

        He thereupon urges his liegelord to receive the visitors courteously.

        O’er the way of the waters are wafted hither,




        You can see it used in (real-world) context here in A History of Shrewsbury by Hugh Owen.



        enter image description here






        share|improve this answer















        In the classic Beowulf (Lesslie Hall translation), they're literally referred to as the King's "thanemen"




        Misery knew not. The monster of evil

        Greedy and cruel tarried but little,

        He drags off thirty of them, and devours them

        Fell and frantic, and forced from their slumbers
        Thirty of thanemen; thence he departed

        Leaping and laughing, his lair to return to,

        With surfeit of slaughter sallying homeward.




        ...




        The strength-famous went till he stood at the shoulder

        Of the lord of the Danemen, of courteous thanemen

        The custom he minded. Wulfgar addressed then

        His friendly liegelord: “Folk of the Geatmen

        He thereupon urges his liegelord to receive the visitors courteously.

        O’er the way of the waters are wafted hither,




        You can see it used in (real-world) context here in A History of Shrewsbury by Hugh Owen.



        enter image description here







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 1 hour ago

























        answered May 9 '15 at 21:58









        ValorumValorum

        398k10328973129




        398k10328973129






























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