I explain why I prefer discuss Buddhism intellectually but others don't seem to accept my point. Why is that?












2















In this Reddit post Is Buddhism about cognitive linguistics and cognitive psychology?, I am advised that practice is far more important than intellectualizing. I understand that the core teaching of Buddhism is to stop clinging on dharma, and I would miss the main point of it if I don't practice it, but I'm not sure if intellect is less important than it. Sure, after you get to the opposite shore, you want to left your raft behind, but when you are still paddling in the middle of the river, you should take care of it.



But after I explain my point, it seems that it goes into one ear and out another. Why is that? Is it actually bad to use intellect? Telling me to not using intellect sounds like asking me to think about the shore when the job is to paddle. I just want to find a way to paddle more efficiently.



I am reading Nagarjuna's Middle Way if that matters.






Related: intellectualism or anti-intellectualism and Buddhism










share|improve this question

























  • If you're reading Nagarjuna then you're seeing the benefit and importance of the intellect. Using the intellect is not always good or bad. It's how and when we use it that determines this. Using it to discuss and understand Nagarjuna seems eminently sensible, as does using it to test the Buddha's teachings as he advises. Intellectualising falls under the heading of contemplation and is encouraged. As always,though, there are useful and not so useful ways of intellectualising, and some ways that are damaging and create obstacles. . .

    – PeterJ
    9 hours ago


















2















In this Reddit post Is Buddhism about cognitive linguistics and cognitive psychology?, I am advised that practice is far more important than intellectualizing. I understand that the core teaching of Buddhism is to stop clinging on dharma, and I would miss the main point of it if I don't practice it, but I'm not sure if intellect is less important than it. Sure, after you get to the opposite shore, you want to left your raft behind, but when you are still paddling in the middle of the river, you should take care of it.



But after I explain my point, it seems that it goes into one ear and out another. Why is that? Is it actually bad to use intellect? Telling me to not using intellect sounds like asking me to think about the shore when the job is to paddle. I just want to find a way to paddle more efficiently.



I am reading Nagarjuna's Middle Way if that matters.






Related: intellectualism or anti-intellectualism and Buddhism










share|improve this question

























  • If you're reading Nagarjuna then you're seeing the benefit and importance of the intellect. Using the intellect is not always good or bad. It's how and when we use it that determines this. Using it to discuss and understand Nagarjuna seems eminently sensible, as does using it to test the Buddha's teachings as he advises. Intellectualising falls under the heading of contemplation and is encouraged. As always,though, there are useful and not so useful ways of intellectualising, and some ways that are damaging and create obstacles. . .

    – PeterJ
    9 hours ago
















2












2








2








In this Reddit post Is Buddhism about cognitive linguistics and cognitive psychology?, I am advised that practice is far more important than intellectualizing. I understand that the core teaching of Buddhism is to stop clinging on dharma, and I would miss the main point of it if I don't practice it, but I'm not sure if intellect is less important than it. Sure, after you get to the opposite shore, you want to left your raft behind, but when you are still paddling in the middle of the river, you should take care of it.



But after I explain my point, it seems that it goes into one ear and out another. Why is that? Is it actually bad to use intellect? Telling me to not using intellect sounds like asking me to think about the shore when the job is to paddle. I just want to find a way to paddle more efficiently.



I am reading Nagarjuna's Middle Way if that matters.






Related: intellectualism or anti-intellectualism and Buddhism










share|improve this question
















In this Reddit post Is Buddhism about cognitive linguistics and cognitive psychology?, I am advised that practice is far more important than intellectualizing. I understand that the core teaching of Buddhism is to stop clinging on dharma, and I would miss the main point of it if I don't practice it, but I'm not sure if intellect is less important than it. Sure, after you get to the opposite shore, you want to left your raft behind, but when you are still paddling in the middle of the river, you should take care of it.



But after I explain my point, it seems that it goes into one ear and out another. Why is that? Is it actually bad to use intellect? Telling me to not using intellect sounds like asking me to think about the shore when the job is to paddle. I just want to find a way to paddle more efficiently.



I am reading Nagarjuna's Middle Way if that matters.






Related: intellectualism or anti-intellectualism and Buddhism







practice thinking






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













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edited 4 hours ago







Ooker

















asked yesterday









OokerOoker

1568




1568













  • If you're reading Nagarjuna then you're seeing the benefit and importance of the intellect. Using the intellect is not always good or bad. It's how and when we use it that determines this. Using it to discuss and understand Nagarjuna seems eminently sensible, as does using it to test the Buddha's teachings as he advises. Intellectualising falls under the heading of contemplation and is encouraged. As always,though, there are useful and not so useful ways of intellectualising, and some ways that are damaging and create obstacles. . .

    – PeterJ
    9 hours ago





















  • If you're reading Nagarjuna then you're seeing the benefit and importance of the intellect. Using the intellect is not always good or bad. It's how and when we use it that determines this. Using it to discuss and understand Nagarjuna seems eminently sensible, as does using it to test the Buddha's teachings as he advises. Intellectualising falls under the heading of contemplation and is encouraged. As always,though, there are useful and not so useful ways of intellectualising, and some ways that are damaging and create obstacles. . .

    – PeterJ
    9 hours ago



















If you're reading Nagarjuna then you're seeing the benefit and importance of the intellect. Using the intellect is not always good or bad. It's how and when we use it that determines this. Using it to discuss and understand Nagarjuna seems eminently sensible, as does using it to test the Buddha's teachings as he advises. Intellectualising falls under the heading of contemplation and is encouraged. As always,though, there are useful and not so useful ways of intellectualising, and some ways that are damaging and create obstacles. . .

– PeterJ
9 hours ago







If you're reading Nagarjuna then you're seeing the benefit and importance of the intellect. Using the intellect is not always good or bad. It's how and when we use it that determines this. Using it to discuss and understand Nagarjuna seems eminently sensible, as does using it to test the Buddha's teachings as he advises. Intellectualising falls under the heading of contemplation and is encouraged. As always,though, there are useful and not so useful ways of intellectualising, and some ways that are damaging and create obstacles. . .

– PeterJ
9 hours ago












6 Answers
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3














You should always keep in mind the differences between the Buddha's dispensation, and the teaching of, let's say, Socrates, Plato and other Hellenistic philosophers, which were, apparently, contemporaries of the historical Buddha.



While Greek philosophers were trying to use their intellect to understand the world surrounding us, sometimes as a means for living a better life, and others just for the sake of knowing more, the Buddha was part of a living tradition of ascetics and mystics that were trying to get free from Samsara (this latter concept having multiple descriptions and definitions, according to the tradition telling the story).



The Simpasa Leaves sutta point to the general direction of Early Buddhism: deliverance from suffering. All the efforts, both practical and intellectual, were directed to that very end; all the teachings, debates and analyses had Dukkha and the end of Dukkha as its axis.



https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.031.than.html



Intellect is an essential part of Buddhism, as well as critical thinking and empirical endeavours. Your views about the world inform to and are the basis of your perceptions and thought, which in time are the ground for your intentions and actions. And that's why the cultivation of the mind is so important to the Path. But this cultivation is not a mere absoption of information, but a practice for understanding suffering, the causes of suffering, the ending of suffering and the path leading to it. Everything else goes beyond the point.



This is why it's so hard to classify Buddhism as a religion or as a philosophy. It has a bit if both, while being none. If comparison have to be made, Stoicism would be a good point to start if you are looking to the west, and early Daoism, if you look to the East. Both paths were pretty practical, both in reflexion and in deeds.



EDIT: This post from a discussion on DhammaWheel might shed some light on the question of the involvement of Buddhism in matters that may fall outside the "original dispensation" (on quotations, because we'll never know for sure if the NikayAgamas contain the original teachings just as the historical Buddha taught them).



https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=500754#p500754



Have a wonderful day!






share|improve this answer


























  • This nails it. Thank you so much. If I see the sufferings as interesting and see it with a curious eye, then does it make sense to intellectualize the teachings? From the Daoist perspective, you can always transform your sufferings into an opportunity that you are long seeking for.

    – Ooker
    17 hours ago











  • First, I think you should define precisely when something is "intellectualized". As PeterJ wrote, intellect itself is neither bad nor good. What Buddhism show us is how to use that intellect skillfully and in a wholesome manner. In the Path, the knowledge that helps to destroy the taints of craving, aversion and ignorance is the knowledge worth reflecting on. Any other knowledge can have social and personal value and utility, or can be used as leisure. The key is to be mindful of your intentions when executing any act, even when trying to learn new things. Kind regards!

    – Brian Díaz Flores
    4 hours ago



















2














This is just from a personal perspective



In my early 20s my engagement with Buddhism was exclusively reading books and intellectualising about it. Fairly quickly I ran into the sand with it as I just couldn't see the difference between nihilism and Buddhism. It was only years later when I joined a Buddhist group and built up a regular meditation practice that I was able to move past this and engage again with Buddhism.



For me there are two activities




  1. Practising Buddhism - meditation, ethics and wisdom

  2. Being interested in Buddhism - reading books about it and wondering about the finer philosophical points


Nothing wrong at all with the second one but for me it isn't helping me practise and realise the end of suffering. Practicising and heavy intellectualising are different. I read that when it comes to wisdom - a good grasp of the 4 noble truths and the eightfold path is good enough. Once you are there then get working on your ethics and meditation. You can come back to the intellectual stuff (much) later.



As I say - this is just my own personal experience. Others will have a different view and I know that traditions such as Tibetan are a lot more keen on the intellectual stuff.



Cheers






share|improve this answer


























  • Was it nihilism because the Dhamma takes you towards not-self, but your natural (non-practising) tendency takes you towards identity views? Was it a kind of dissonance? And then meditation helped you reduce this dissonance?

    – ruben2020
    16 hours ago













  • @ruben2020. Not so much. I've always being reasonably comfortable with not-self. It was more reading about the emptiness of all things and the lack of inherent existence in everything. Also no metta practice and general ignoring of compassion. That's how I remember it now anyway

    – Crab Bucket
    16 hours ago











  • So dissonance is everyday life and we don't even see it as suffering. Do you think that our discussion actual makes us suffer?

    – Ooker
    16 hours ago



















2














Here's a very suitable sutta for this question. Self-explanatory.



From Dhammaviharin Sutta (AN 5.73):




Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having
bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to
the Blessed One, "'One who dwells in the Dhamma, one who dwells in the
Dhamma': thus it is said, lord. To what extent is a bhikkhu one who
dwells in the Dhamma?"



"Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues,
narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous
exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question &
answer sessions. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects
seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of
awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who
dwells in the Dhamma.



"Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
& studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the
day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit
himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk
who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.



"Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
& studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in
Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to
internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen
on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.



"Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
& studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with
his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects
seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of
awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who
dwells in the Dhamma.



"Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues,
narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous
exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question &
answer sessions. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't
neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of
awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma.



"Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one
who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one
who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma.
Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples,
out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are
the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk.
Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message
to you."







share|improve this answer































    0














    It was against the rules for monks to speak without knowing if something is true or false.



    If you yourself don't understand or know something then it's just the same as lying or misleading others.




    ‘If a monk falsely claims for himself a superhuman quality, knowledge
    and vision worthy of the noble ones, saying, “This I know, this I
    see,” but after some time—whether questioned or not, but having
    committed the offense and desiring purification—should say: “Not
    knowing I said that I know, not seeing that I see; what I said was
    empty and false,” he too is expelled and excluded from the
    community.’” (Uttarimanussadhamma Pli Tv Bu Vb Pj 4)




    What is the point in discussing something without experiencing it? What is the point of mere words if the world is empty of a sammasambuddha, paccekabuddhas, arahants, or those near-enlightened beings who have attained higher jhanas and developed iddhi?



    The goal in Buddhism is to achieve arahantship here and now not merely read about it or discuss it.



    After you experience something and actually know it yourself then speak about it. From direct experience you should also be able to correctly reason things.






    share|improve this answer
























    • I think I have experience mindfulness, but not really into it. Is that good? What do you think?

      – Ooker
      17 hours ago





















    0














    How many years do you already hang around in Dhamma areas and still not grasp the basics?



    As it is with chosing teachers. Good if following those who let it rain.



    Only one who walks arives and the villagers just wast their times, discussing what they are to lazy to do and see for themselves.



    [Given not for trade exchange, stacks, Buddh-ism and intellectual "sex" but for liberation]






    share|improve this answer










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      0














      In the post in question:




      • You use the parable of the elephant as an example (which is in a sutta about sectarian disputes)

      • You say that "Buddhism is strongly about this interaction between cognitive psychology and cognitive linguistic"


      When I first read that I think that's an unorthodox and unrecognisable summary of Buddhism, or at least, it is so from the perspective of the suttas.



      See also comments under this question, I think you assume that Nagarjuna's Middle Way is Buddhism -- and 'that "dharma has no self-nature" is a basic foundation in Buddhism' -- which I think isn't so.



      I don't want to say that "Nagarjuna isn't Buddhism" but I think there's a school (Theravada) for whom Nagarjuna isn't canonical and to whom a statement like "dharma has no self-nature" is a bit far-fetched, possibly heretical, maybe novel at best, I don't know -- anyway, who aren't familiar with Nagarjuna's doctrine.



      I think that a more-orthodox (according to the suttas) summary of Buddhism might be something like:




      • The Buddha taught about "suffering and cessation" (of suffering)

      • The way (to end suffering) has components including "ethics, mindfulness, and wisdom"


      I think that's maybe the shortest summary.



      I find it hard to see that definition in "interaction between cognitive psychology and cognitive linguistics ... to identify incorrect sememes", so I sympathise with those who disagree with it as a definition. But I for one had never heard the word "sememe" before this, so maybe that definition makes more sense to you than it does to me. But perhaps you're not wrong, either, and that what you're saying reflects Buddhist doctrine that "right view" is important, and so is "seeing things as they truly are".



      Still if that (i.e. "right view") is all you're talking about, I think that Buddhism is more than that.



      Incidentally I don't see that the suttas identify "illusion of transparency" as a cause of dispute -- more likely conceit (e.g. "my view is superior to yours"). You might be onto something with "naïve realism", I think that papañca is identified as the cause of (e.g. sectarian) disputes, defined e.g. here and here, and "reification" might be part of that.






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        6 Answers
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        6 Answers
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        3














        You should always keep in mind the differences between the Buddha's dispensation, and the teaching of, let's say, Socrates, Plato and other Hellenistic philosophers, which were, apparently, contemporaries of the historical Buddha.



        While Greek philosophers were trying to use their intellect to understand the world surrounding us, sometimes as a means for living a better life, and others just for the sake of knowing more, the Buddha was part of a living tradition of ascetics and mystics that were trying to get free from Samsara (this latter concept having multiple descriptions and definitions, according to the tradition telling the story).



        The Simpasa Leaves sutta point to the general direction of Early Buddhism: deliverance from suffering. All the efforts, both practical and intellectual, were directed to that very end; all the teachings, debates and analyses had Dukkha and the end of Dukkha as its axis.



        https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.031.than.html



        Intellect is an essential part of Buddhism, as well as critical thinking and empirical endeavours. Your views about the world inform to and are the basis of your perceptions and thought, which in time are the ground for your intentions and actions. And that's why the cultivation of the mind is so important to the Path. But this cultivation is not a mere absoption of information, but a practice for understanding suffering, the causes of suffering, the ending of suffering and the path leading to it. Everything else goes beyond the point.



        This is why it's so hard to classify Buddhism as a religion or as a philosophy. It has a bit if both, while being none. If comparison have to be made, Stoicism would be a good point to start if you are looking to the west, and early Daoism, if you look to the East. Both paths were pretty practical, both in reflexion and in deeds.



        EDIT: This post from a discussion on DhammaWheel might shed some light on the question of the involvement of Buddhism in matters that may fall outside the "original dispensation" (on quotations, because we'll never know for sure if the NikayAgamas contain the original teachings just as the historical Buddha taught them).



        https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=500754#p500754



        Have a wonderful day!






        share|improve this answer


























        • This nails it. Thank you so much. If I see the sufferings as interesting and see it with a curious eye, then does it make sense to intellectualize the teachings? From the Daoist perspective, you can always transform your sufferings into an opportunity that you are long seeking for.

          – Ooker
          17 hours ago











        • First, I think you should define precisely when something is "intellectualized". As PeterJ wrote, intellect itself is neither bad nor good. What Buddhism show us is how to use that intellect skillfully and in a wholesome manner. In the Path, the knowledge that helps to destroy the taints of craving, aversion and ignorance is the knowledge worth reflecting on. Any other knowledge can have social and personal value and utility, or can be used as leisure. The key is to be mindful of your intentions when executing any act, even when trying to learn new things. Kind regards!

          – Brian Díaz Flores
          4 hours ago
















        3














        You should always keep in mind the differences between the Buddha's dispensation, and the teaching of, let's say, Socrates, Plato and other Hellenistic philosophers, which were, apparently, contemporaries of the historical Buddha.



        While Greek philosophers were trying to use their intellect to understand the world surrounding us, sometimes as a means for living a better life, and others just for the sake of knowing more, the Buddha was part of a living tradition of ascetics and mystics that were trying to get free from Samsara (this latter concept having multiple descriptions and definitions, according to the tradition telling the story).



        The Simpasa Leaves sutta point to the general direction of Early Buddhism: deliverance from suffering. All the efforts, both practical and intellectual, were directed to that very end; all the teachings, debates and analyses had Dukkha and the end of Dukkha as its axis.



        https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.031.than.html



        Intellect is an essential part of Buddhism, as well as critical thinking and empirical endeavours. Your views about the world inform to and are the basis of your perceptions and thought, which in time are the ground for your intentions and actions. And that's why the cultivation of the mind is so important to the Path. But this cultivation is not a mere absoption of information, but a practice for understanding suffering, the causes of suffering, the ending of suffering and the path leading to it. Everything else goes beyond the point.



        This is why it's so hard to classify Buddhism as a religion or as a philosophy. It has a bit if both, while being none. If comparison have to be made, Stoicism would be a good point to start if you are looking to the west, and early Daoism, if you look to the East. Both paths were pretty practical, both in reflexion and in deeds.



        EDIT: This post from a discussion on DhammaWheel might shed some light on the question of the involvement of Buddhism in matters that may fall outside the "original dispensation" (on quotations, because we'll never know for sure if the NikayAgamas contain the original teachings just as the historical Buddha taught them).



        https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=500754#p500754



        Have a wonderful day!






        share|improve this answer


























        • This nails it. Thank you so much. If I see the sufferings as interesting and see it with a curious eye, then does it make sense to intellectualize the teachings? From the Daoist perspective, you can always transform your sufferings into an opportunity that you are long seeking for.

          – Ooker
          17 hours ago











        • First, I think you should define precisely when something is "intellectualized". As PeterJ wrote, intellect itself is neither bad nor good. What Buddhism show us is how to use that intellect skillfully and in a wholesome manner. In the Path, the knowledge that helps to destroy the taints of craving, aversion and ignorance is the knowledge worth reflecting on. Any other knowledge can have social and personal value and utility, or can be used as leisure. The key is to be mindful of your intentions when executing any act, even when trying to learn new things. Kind regards!

          – Brian Díaz Flores
          4 hours ago














        3












        3








        3







        You should always keep in mind the differences between the Buddha's dispensation, and the teaching of, let's say, Socrates, Plato and other Hellenistic philosophers, which were, apparently, contemporaries of the historical Buddha.



        While Greek philosophers were trying to use their intellect to understand the world surrounding us, sometimes as a means for living a better life, and others just for the sake of knowing more, the Buddha was part of a living tradition of ascetics and mystics that were trying to get free from Samsara (this latter concept having multiple descriptions and definitions, according to the tradition telling the story).



        The Simpasa Leaves sutta point to the general direction of Early Buddhism: deliverance from suffering. All the efforts, both practical and intellectual, were directed to that very end; all the teachings, debates and analyses had Dukkha and the end of Dukkha as its axis.



        https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.031.than.html



        Intellect is an essential part of Buddhism, as well as critical thinking and empirical endeavours. Your views about the world inform to and are the basis of your perceptions and thought, which in time are the ground for your intentions and actions. And that's why the cultivation of the mind is so important to the Path. But this cultivation is not a mere absoption of information, but a practice for understanding suffering, the causes of suffering, the ending of suffering and the path leading to it. Everything else goes beyond the point.



        This is why it's so hard to classify Buddhism as a religion or as a philosophy. It has a bit if both, while being none. If comparison have to be made, Stoicism would be a good point to start if you are looking to the west, and early Daoism, if you look to the East. Both paths were pretty practical, both in reflexion and in deeds.



        EDIT: This post from a discussion on DhammaWheel might shed some light on the question of the involvement of Buddhism in matters that may fall outside the "original dispensation" (on quotations, because we'll never know for sure if the NikayAgamas contain the original teachings just as the historical Buddha taught them).



        https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=500754#p500754



        Have a wonderful day!






        share|improve this answer















        You should always keep in mind the differences between the Buddha's dispensation, and the teaching of, let's say, Socrates, Plato and other Hellenistic philosophers, which were, apparently, contemporaries of the historical Buddha.



        While Greek philosophers were trying to use their intellect to understand the world surrounding us, sometimes as a means for living a better life, and others just for the sake of knowing more, the Buddha was part of a living tradition of ascetics and mystics that were trying to get free from Samsara (this latter concept having multiple descriptions and definitions, according to the tradition telling the story).



        The Simpasa Leaves sutta point to the general direction of Early Buddhism: deliverance from suffering. All the efforts, both practical and intellectual, were directed to that very end; all the teachings, debates and analyses had Dukkha and the end of Dukkha as its axis.



        https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.031.than.html



        Intellect is an essential part of Buddhism, as well as critical thinking and empirical endeavours. Your views about the world inform to and are the basis of your perceptions and thought, which in time are the ground for your intentions and actions. And that's why the cultivation of the mind is so important to the Path. But this cultivation is not a mere absoption of information, but a practice for understanding suffering, the causes of suffering, the ending of suffering and the path leading to it. Everything else goes beyond the point.



        This is why it's so hard to classify Buddhism as a religion or as a philosophy. It has a bit if both, while being none. If comparison have to be made, Stoicism would be a good point to start if you are looking to the west, and early Daoism, if you look to the East. Both paths were pretty practical, both in reflexion and in deeds.



        EDIT: This post from a discussion on DhammaWheel might shed some light on the question of the involvement of Buddhism in matters that may fall outside the "original dispensation" (on quotations, because we'll never know for sure if the NikayAgamas contain the original teachings just as the historical Buddha taught them).



        https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=500754#p500754



        Have a wonderful day!







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 8 hours ago

























        answered yesterday









        Brian Díaz FloresBrian Díaz Flores

        34318




        34318













        • This nails it. Thank you so much. If I see the sufferings as interesting and see it with a curious eye, then does it make sense to intellectualize the teachings? From the Daoist perspective, you can always transform your sufferings into an opportunity that you are long seeking for.

          – Ooker
          17 hours ago











        • First, I think you should define precisely when something is "intellectualized". As PeterJ wrote, intellect itself is neither bad nor good. What Buddhism show us is how to use that intellect skillfully and in a wholesome manner. In the Path, the knowledge that helps to destroy the taints of craving, aversion and ignorance is the knowledge worth reflecting on. Any other knowledge can have social and personal value and utility, or can be used as leisure. The key is to be mindful of your intentions when executing any act, even when trying to learn new things. Kind regards!

          – Brian Díaz Flores
          4 hours ago



















        • This nails it. Thank you so much. If I see the sufferings as interesting and see it with a curious eye, then does it make sense to intellectualize the teachings? From the Daoist perspective, you can always transform your sufferings into an opportunity that you are long seeking for.

          – Ooker
          17 hours ago











        • First, I think you should define precisely when something is "intellectualized". As PeterJ wrote, intellect itself is neither bad nor good. What Buddhism show us is how to use that intellect skillfully and in a wholesome manner. In the Path, the knowledge that helps to destroy the taints of craving, aversion and ignorance is the knowledge worth reflecting on. Any other knowledge can have social and personal value and utility, or can be used as leisure. The key is to be mindful of your intentions when executing any act, even when trying to learn new things. Kind regards!

          – Brian Díaz Flores
          4 hours ago

















        This nails it. Thank you so much. If I see the sufferings as interesting and see it with a curious eye, then does it make sense to intellectualize the teachings? From the Daoist perspective, you can always transform your sufferings into an opportunity that you are long seeking for.

        – Ooker
        17 hours ago





        This nails it. Thank you so much. If I see the sufferings as interesting and see it with a curious eye, then does it make sense to intellectualize the teachings? From the Daoist perspective, you can always transform your sufferings into an opportunity that you are long seeking for.

        – Ooker
        17 hours ago













        First, I think you should define precisely when something is "intellectualized". As PeterJ wrote, intellect itself is neither bad nor good. What Buddhism show us is how to use that intellect skillfully and in a wholesome manner. In the Path, the knowledge that helps to destroy the taints of craving, aversion and ignorance is the knowledge worth reflecting on. Any other knowledge can have social and personal value and utility, or can be used as leisure. The key is to be mindful of your intentions when executing any act, even when trying to learn new things. Kind regards!

        – Brian Díaz Flores
        4 hours ago





        First, I think you should define precisely when something is "intellectualized". As PeterJ wrote, intellect itself is neither bad nor good. What Buddhism show us is how to use that intellect skillfully and in a wholesome manner. In the Path, the knowledge that helps to destroy the taints of craving, aversion and ignorance is the knowledge worth reflecting on. Any other knowledge can have social and personal value and utility, or can be used as leisure. The key is to be mindful of your intentions when executing any act, even when trying to learn new things. Kind regards!

        – Brian Díaz Flores
        4 hours ago











        2














        This is just from a personal perspective



        In my early 20s my engagement with Buddhism was exclusively reading books and intellectualising about it. Fairly quickly I ran into the sand with it as I just couldn't see the difference between nihilism and Buddhism. It was only years later when I joined a Buddhist group and built up a regular meditation practice that I was able to move past this and engage again with Buddhism.



        For me there are two activities




        1. Practising Buddhism - meditation, ethics and wisdom

        2. Being interested in Buddhism - reading books about it and wondering about the finer philosophical points


        Nothing wrong at all with the second one but for me it isn't helping me practise and realise the end of suffering. Practicising and heavy intellectualising are different. I read that when it comes to wisdom - a good grasp of the 4 noble truths and the eightfold path is good enough. Once you are there then get working on your ethics and meditation. You can come back to the intellectual stuff (much) later.



        As I say - this is just my own personal experience. Others will have a different view and I know that traditions such as Tibetan are a lot more keen on the intellectual stuff.



        Cheers






        share|improve this answer


























        • Was it nihilism because the Dhamma takes you towards not-self, but your natural (non-practising) tendency takes you towards identity views? Was it a kind of dissonance? And then meditation helped you reduce this dissonance?

          – ruben2020
          16 hours ago













        • @ruben2020. Not so much. I've always being reasonably comfortable with not-self. It was more reading about the emptiness of all things and the lack of inherent existence in everything. Also no metta practice and general ignoring of compassion. That's how I remember it now anyway

          – Crab Bucket
          16 hours ago











        • So dissonance is everyday life and we don't even see it as suffering. Do you think that our discussion actual makes us suffer?

          – Ooker
          16 hours ago
















        2














        This is just from a personal perspective



        In my early 20s my engagement with Buddhism was exclusively reading books and intellectualising about it. Fairly quickly I ran into the sand with it as I just couldn't see the difference between nihilism and Buddhism. It was only years later when I joined a Buddhist group and built up a regular meditation practice that I was able to move past this and engage again with Buddhism.



        For me there are two activities




        1. Practising Buddhism - meditation, ethics and wisdom

        2. Being interested in Buddhism - reading books about it and wondering about the finer philosophical points


        Nothing wrong at all with the second one but for me it isn't helping me practise and realise the end of suffering. Practicising and heavy intellectualising are different. I read that when it comes to wisdom - a good grasp of the 4 noble truths and the eightfold path is good enough. Once you are there then get working on your ethics and meditation. You can come back to the intellectual stuff (much) later.



        As I say - this is just my own personal experience. Others will have a different view and I know that traditions such as Tibetan are a lot more keen on the intellectual stuff.



        Cheers






        share|improve this answer


























        • Was it nihilism because the Dhamma takes you towards not-self, but your natural (non-practising) tendency takes you towards identity views? Was it a kind of dissonance? And then meditation helped you reduce this dissonance?

          – ruben2020
          16 hours ago













        • @ruben2020. Not so much. I've always being reasonably comfortable with not-self. It was more reading about the emptiness of all things and the lack of inherent existence in everything. Also no metta practice and general ignoring of compassion. That's how I remember it now anyway

          – Crab Bucket
          16 hours ago











        • So dissonance is everyday life and we don't even see it as suffering. Do you think that our discussion actual makes us suffer?

          – Ooker
          16 hours ago














        2












        2








        2







        This is just from a personal perspective



        In my early 20s my engagement with Buddhism was exclusively reading books and intellectualising about it. Fairly quickly I ran into the sand with it as I just couldn't see the difference between nihilism and Buddhism. It was only years later when I joined a Buddhist group and built up a regular meditation practice that I was able to move past this and engage again with Buddhism.



        For me there are two activities




        1. Practising Buddhism - meditation, ethics and wisdom

        2. Being interested in Buddhism - reading books about it and wondering about the finer philosophical points


        Nothing wrong at all with the second one but for me it isn't helping me practise and realise the end of suffering. Practicising and heavy intellectualising are different. I read that when it comes to wisdom - a good grasp of the 4 noble truths and the eightfold path is good enough. Once you are there then get working on your ethics and meditation. You can come back to the intellectual stuff (much) later.



        As I say - this is just my own personal experience. Others will have a different view and I know that traditions such as Tibetan are a lot more keen on the intellectual stuff.



        Cheers






        share|improve this answer















        This is just from a personal perspective



        In my early 20s my engagement with Buddhism was exclusively reading books and intellectualising about it. Fairly quickly I ran into the sand with it as I just couldn't see the difference between nihilism and Buddhism. It was only years later when I joined a Buddhist group and built up a regular meditation practice that I was able to move past this and engage again with Buddhism.



        For me there are two activities




        1. Practising Buddhism - meditation, ethics and wisdom

        2. Being interested in Buddhism - reading books about it and wondering about the finer philosophical points


        Nothing wrong at all with the second one but for me it isn't helping me practise and realise the end of suffering. Practicising and heavy intellectualising are different. I read that when it comes to wisdom - a good grasp of the 4 noble truths and the eightfold path is good enough. Once you are there then get working on your ethics and meditation. You can come back to the intellectual stuff (much) later.



        As I say - this is just my own personal experience. Others will have a different view and I know that traditions such as Tibetan are a lot more keen on the intellectual stuff.



        Cheers







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 17 hours ago

























        answered 22 hours ago









        Crab BucketCrab Bucket

        13.1k544123




        13.1k544123













        • Was it nihilism because the Dhamma takes you towards not-self, but your natural (non-practising) tendency takes you towards identity views? Was it a kind of dissonance? And then meditation helped you reduce this dissonance?

          – ruben2020
          16 hours ago













        • @ruben2020. Not so much. I've always being reasonably comfortable with not-self. It was more reading about the emptiness of all things and the lack of inherent existence in everything. Also no metta practice and general ignoring of compassion. That's how I remember it now anyway

          – Crab Bucket
          16 hours ago











        • So dissonance is everyday life and we don't even see it as suffering. Do you think that our discussion actual makes us suffer?

          – Ooker
          16 hours ago



















        • Was it nihilism because the Dhamma takes you towards not-self, but your natural (non-practising) tendency takes you towards identity views? Was it a kind of dissonance? And then meditation helped you reduce this dissonance?

          – ruben2020
          16 hours ago













        • @ruben2020. Not so much. I've always being reasonably comfortable with not-self. It was more reading about the emptiness of all things and the lack of inherent existence in everything. Also no metta practice and general ignoring of compassion. That's how I remember it now anyway

          – Crab Bucket
          16 hours ago











        • So dissonance is everyday life and we don't even see it as suffering. Do you think that our discussion actual makes us suffer?

          – Ooker
          16 hours ago

















        Was it nihilism because the Dhamma takes you towards not-self, but your natural (non-practising) tendency takes you towards identity views? Was it a kind of dissonance? And then meditation helped you reduce this dissonance?

        – ruben2020
        16 hours ago







        Was it nihilism because the Dhamma takes you towards not-self, but your natural (non-practising) tendency takes you towards identity views? Was it a kind of dissonance? And then meditation helped you reduce this dissonance?

        – ruben2020
        16 hours ago















        @ruben2020. Not so much. I've always being reasonably comfortable with not-self. It was more reading about the emptiness of all things and the lack of inherent existence in everything. Also no metta practice and general ignoring of compassion. That's how I remember it now anyway

        – Crab Bucket
        16 hours ago





        @ruben2020. Not so much. I've always being reasonably comfortable with not-self. It was more reading about the emptiness of all things and the lack of inherent existence in everything. Also no metta practice and general ignoring of compassion. That's how I remember it now anyway

        – Crab Bucket
        16 hours ago













        So dissonance is everyday life and we don't even see it as suffering. Do you think that our discussion actual makes us suffer?

        – Ooker
        16 hours ago





        So dissonance is everyday life and we don't even see it as suffering. Do you think that our discussion actual makes us suffer?

        – Ooker
        16 hours ago











        2














        Here's a very suitable sutta for this question. Self-explanatory.



        From Dhammaviharin Sutta (AN 5.73):




        Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having
        bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to
        the Blessed One, "'One who dwells in the Dhamma, one who dwells in the
        Dhamma': thus it is said, lord. To what extent is a bhikkhu one who
        dwells in the Dhamma?"



        "Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues,
        narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous
        exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question &
        answer sessions. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects
        seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of
        awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who
        dwells in the Dhamma.



        "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
        & studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the
        day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit
        himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk
        who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.



        "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
        & studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in
        Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to
        internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen
        on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.



        "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
        & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with
        his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects
        seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of
        awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who
        dwells in the Dhamma.



        "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues,
        narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous
        exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question &
        answer sessions. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't
        neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of
        awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma.



        "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one
        who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one
        who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma.
        Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples,
        out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are
        the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk.
        Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message
        to you."







        share|improve this answer




























          2














          Here's a very suitable sutta for this question. Self-explanatory.



          From Dhammaviharin Sutta (AN 5.73):




          Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having
          bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to
          the Blessed One, "'One who dwells in the Dhamma, one who dwells in the
          Dhamma': thus it is said, lord. To what extent is a bhikkhu one who
          dwells in the Dhamma?"



          "Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues,
          narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous
          exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question &
          answer sessions. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects
          seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of
          awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who
          dwells in the Dhamma.



          "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
          & studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the
          day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit
          himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk
          who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.



          "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
          & studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in
          Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to
          internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen
          on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.



          "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
          & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with
          his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects
          seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of
          awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who
          dwells in the Dhamma.



          "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues,
          narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous
          exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question &
          answer sessions. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't
          neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of
          awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma.



          "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one
          who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one
          who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma.
          Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples,
          out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are
          the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk.
          Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message
          to you."







          share|improve this answer


























            2












            2








            2







            Here's a very suitable sutta for this question. Self-explanatory.



            From Dhammaviharin Sutta (AN 5.73):




            Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having
            bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to
            the Blessed One, "'One who dwells in the Dhamma, one who dwells in the
            Dhamma': thus it is said, lord. To what extent is a bhikkhu one who
            dwells in the Dhamma?"



            "Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues,
            narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous
            exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question &
            answer sessions. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects
            seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of
            awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who
            dwells in the Dhamma.



            "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
            & studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the
            day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit
            himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk
            who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.



            "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
            & studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in
            Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to
            internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen
            on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.



            "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
            & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with
            his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects
            seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of
            awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who
            dwells in the Dhamma.



            "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues,
            narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous
            exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question &
            answer sessions. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't
            neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of
            awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma.



            "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one
            who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one
            who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma.
            Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples,
            out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are
            the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk.
            Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message
            to you."







            share|improve this answer













            Here's a very suitable sutta for this question. Self-explanatory.



            From Dhammaviharin Sutta (AN 5.73):




            Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having
            bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to
            the Blessed One, "'One who dwells in the Dhamma, one who dwells in the
            Dhamma': thus it is said, lord. To what extent is a bhikkhu one who
            dwells in the Dhamma?"



            "Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues,
            narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous
            exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question &
            answer sessions. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects
            seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of
            awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who
            dwells in the Dhamma.



            "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
            & studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the
            day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit
            himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk
            who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.



            "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
            & studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in
            Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to
            internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen
            on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.



            "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard
            & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with
            his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects
            seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of
            awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who
            dwells in the Dhamma.



            "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues,
            narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous
            exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question &
            answer sessions. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't
            neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of
            awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma.



            "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one
            who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one
            who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma.
            Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples,
            out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are
            the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk.
            Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message
            to you."








            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 15 hours ago









            ruben2020ruben2020

            14.8k31242




            14.8k31242























                0














                It was against the rules for monks to speak without knowing if something is true or false.



                If you yourself don't understand or know something then it's just the same as lying or misleading others.




                ‘If a monk falsely claims for himself a superhuman quality, knowledge
                and vision worthy of the noble ones, saying, “This I know, this I
                see,” but after some time—whether questioned or not, but having
                committed the offense and desiring purification—should say: “Not
                knowing I said that I know, not seeing that I see; what I said was
                empty and false,” he too is expelled and excluded from the
                community.’” (Uttarimanussadhamma Pli Tv Bu Vb Pj 4)




                What is the point in discussing something without experiencing it? What is the point of mere words if the world is empty of a sammasambuddha, paccekabuddhas, arahants, or those near-enlightened beings who have attained higher jhanas and developed iddhi?



                The goal in Buddhism is to achieve arahantship here and now not merely read about it or discuss it.



                After you experience something and actually know it yourself then speak about it. From direct experience you should also be able to correctly reason things.






                share|improve this answer
























                • I think I have experience mindfulness, but not really into it. Is that good? What do you think?

                  – Ooker
                  17 hours ago


















                0














                It was against the rules for monks to speak without knowing if something is true or false.



                If you yourself don't understand or know something then it's just the same as lying or misleading others.




                ‘If a monk falsely claims for himself a superhuman quality, knowledge
                and vision worthy of the noble ones, saying, “This I know, this I
                see,” but after some time—whether questioned or not, but having
                committed the offense and desiring purification—should say: “Not
                knowing I said that I know, not seeing that I see; what I said was
                empty and false,” he too is expelled and excluded from the
                community.’” (Uttarimanussadhamma Pli Tv Bu Vb Pj 4)




                What is the point in discussing something without experiencing it? What is the point of mere words if the world is empty of a sammasambuddha, paccekabuddhas, arahants, or those near-enlightened beings who have attained higher jhanas and developed iddhi?



                The goal in Buddhism is to achieve arahantship here and now not merely read about it or discuss it.



                After you experience something and actually know it yourself then speak about it. From direct experience you should also be able to correctly reason things.






                share|improve this answer
























                • I think I have experience mindfulness, but not really into it. Is that good? What do you think?

                  – Ooker
                  17 hours ago
















                0












                0








                0







                It was against the rules for monks to speak without knowing if something is true or false.



                If you yourself don't understand or know something then it's just the same as lying or misleading others.




                ‘If a monk falsely claims for himself a superhuman quality, knowledge
                and vision worthy of the noble ones, saying, “This I know, this I
                see,” but after some time—whether questioned or not, but having
                committed the offense and desiring purification—should say: “Not
                knowing I said that I know, not seeing that I see; what I said was
                empty and false,” he too is expelled and excluded from the
                community.’” (Uttarimanussadhamma Pli Tv Bu Vb Pj 4)




                What is the point in discussing something without experiencing it? What is the point of mere words if the world is empty of a sammasambuddha, paccekabuddhas, arahants, or those near-enlightened beings who have attained higher jhanas and developed iddhi?



                The goal in Buddhism is to achieve arahantship here and now not merely read about it or discuss it.



                After you experience something and actually know it yourself then speak about it. From direct experience you should also be able to correctly reason things.






                share|improve this answer













                It was against the rules for monks to speak without knowing if something is true or false.



                If you yourself don't understand or know something then it's just the same as lying or misleading others.




                ‘If a monk falsely claims for himself a superhuman quality, knowledge
                and vision worthy of the noble ones, saying, “This I know, this I
                see,” but after some time—whether questioned or not, but having
                committed the offense and desiring purification—should say: “Not
                knowing I said that I know, not seeing that I see; what I said was
                empty and false,” he too is expelled and excluded from the
                community.’” (Uttarimanussadhamma Pli Tv Bu Vb Pj 4)




                What is the point in discussing something without experiencing it? What is the point of mere words if the world is empty of a sammasambuddha, paccekabuddhas, arahants, or those near-enlightened beings who have attained higher jhanas and developed iddhi?



                The goal in Buddhism is to achieve arahantship here and now not merely read about it or discuss it.



                After you experience something and actually know it yourself then speak about it. From direct experience you should also be able to correctly reason things.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 18 hours ago









                MischievousSageMischievousSage

                72436




                72436













                • I think I have experience mindfulness, but not really into it. Is that good? What do you think?

                  – Ooker
                  17 hours ago





















                • I think I have experience mindfulness, but not really into it. Is that good? What do you think?

                  – Ooker
                  17 hours ago



















                I think I have experience mindfulness, but not really into it. Is that good? What do you think?

                – Ooker
                17 hours ago







                I think I have experience mindfulness, but not really into it. Is that good? What do you think?

                – Ooker
                17 hours ago













                0














                How many years do you already hang around in Dhamma areas and still not grasp the basics?



                As it is with chosing teachers. Good if following those who let it rain.



                Only one who walks arives and the villagers just wast their times, discussing what they are to lazy to do and see for themselves.



                [Given not for trade exchange, stacks, Buddh-ism and intellectual "sex" but for liberation]






                share|improve this answer










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                Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                  0














                  How many years do you already hang around in Dhamma areas and still not grasp the basics?



                  As it is with chosing teachers. Good if following those who let it rain.



                  Only one who walks arives and the villagers just wast their times, discussing what they are to lazy to do and see for themselves.



                  [Given not for trade exchange, stacks, Buddh-ism and intellectual "sex" but for liberation]






                  share|improve this answer










                  New contributor




                  Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.























                    0












                    0








                    0







                    How many years do you already hang around in Dhamma areas and still not grasp the basics?



                    As it is with chosing teachers. Good if following those who let it rain.



                    Only one who walks arives and the villagers just wast their times, discussing what they are to lazy to do and see for themselves.



                    [Given not for trade exchange, stacks, Buddh-ism and intellectual "sex" but for liberation]






                    share|improve this answer










                    New contributor




                    Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.










                    How many years do you already hang around in Dhamma areas and still not grasp the basics?



                    As it is with chosing teachers. Good if following those who let it rain.



                    Only one who walks arives and the villagers just wast their times, discussing what they are to lazy to do and see for themselves.



                    [Given not for trade exchange, stacks, Buddh-ism and intellectual "sex" but for liberation]







                    share|improve this answer










                    New contributor




                    Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 15 hours ago





















                    New contributor




                    Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                    answered 15 hours ago









                    Samana JohannSamana Johann

                    134




                    134




                    New contributor




                    Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                    New contributor





                    Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.






                    Samana Johann is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.























                        0














                        In the post in question:




                        • You use the parable of the elephant as an example (which is in a sutta about sectarian disputes)

                        • You say that "Buddhism is strongly about this interaction between cognitive psychology and cognitive linguistic"


                        When I first read that I think that's an unorthodox and unrecognisable summary of Buddhism, or at least, it is so from the perspective of the suttas.



                        See also comments under this question, I think you assume that Nagarjuna's Middle Way is Buddhism -- and 'that "dharma has no self-nature" is a basic foundation in Buddhism' -- which I think isn't so.



                        I don't want to say that "Nagarjuna isn't Buddhism" but I think there's a school (Theravada) for whom Nagarjuna isn't canonical and to whom a statement like "dharma has no self-nature" is a bit far-fetched, possibly heretical, maybe novel at best, I don't know -- anyway, who aren't familiar with Nagarjuna's doctrine.



                        I think that a more-orthodox (according to the suttas) summary of Buddhism might be something like:




                        • The Buddha taught about "suffering and cessation" (of suffering)

                        • The way (to end suffering) has components including "ethics, mindfulness, and wisdom"


                        I think that's maybe the shortest summary.



                        I find it hard to see that definition in "interaction between cognitive psychology and cognitive linguistics ... to identify incorrect sememes", so I sympathise with those who disagree with it as a definition. But I for one had never heard the word "sememe" before this, so maybe that definition makes more sense to you than it does to me. But perhaps you're not wrong, either, and that what you're saying reflects Buddhist doctrine that "right view" is important, and so is "seeing things as they truly are".



                        Still if that (i.e. "right view") is all you're talking about, I think that Buddhism is more than that.



                        Incidentally I don't see that the suttas identify "illusion of transparency" as a cause of dispute -- more likely conceit (e.g. "my view is superior to yours"). You might be onto something with "naïve realism", I think that papañca is identified as the cause of (e.g. sectarian) disputes, defined e.g. here and here, and "reification" might be part of that.






                        share|improve this answer






























                          0














                          In the post in question:




                          • You use the parable of the elephant as an example (which is in a sutta about sectarian disputes)

                          • You say that "Buddhism is strongly about this interaction between cognitive psychology and cognitive linguistic"


                          When I first read that I think that's an unorthodox and unrecognisable summary of Buddhism, or at least, it is so from the perspective of the suttas.



                          See also comments under this question, I think you assume that Nagarjuna's Middle Way is Buddhism -- and 'that "dharma has no self-nature" is a basic foundation in Buddhism' -- which I think isn't so.



                          I don't want to say that "Nagarjuna isn't Buddhism" but I think there's a school (Theravada) for whom Nagarjuna isn't canonical and to whom a statement like "dharma has no self-nature" is a bit far-fetched, possibly heretical, maybe novel at best, I don't know -- anyway, who aren't familiar with Nagarjuna's doctrine.



                          I think that a more-orthodox (according to the suttas) summary of Buddhism might be something like:




                          • The Buddha taught about "suffering and cessation" (of suffering)

                          • The way (to end suffering) has components including "ethics, mindfulness, and wisdom"


                          I think that's maybe the shortest summary.



                          I find it hard to see that definition in "interaction between cognitive psychology and cognitive linguistics ... to identify incorrect sememes", so I sympathise with those who disagree with it as a definition. But I for one had never heard the word "sememe" before this, so maybe that definition makes more sense to you than it does to me. But perhaps you're not wrong, either, and that what you're saying reflects Buddhist doctrine that "right view" is important, and so is "seeing things as they truly are".



                          Still if that (i.e. "right view") is all you're talking about, I think that Buddhism is more than that.



                          Incidentally I don't see that the suttas identify "illusion of transparency" as a cause of dispute -- more likely conceit (e.g. "my view is superior to yours"). You might be onto something with "naïve realism", I think that papañca is identified as the cause of (e.g. sectarian) disputes, defined e.g. here and here, and "reification" might be part of that.






                          share|improve this answer




























                            0












                            0








                            0







                            In the post in question:




                            • You use the parable of the elephant as an example (which is in a sutta about sectarian disputes)

                            • You say that "Buddhism is strongly about this interaction between cognitive psychology and cognitive linguistic"


                            When I first read that I think that's an unorthodox and unrecognisable summary of Buddhism, or at least, it is so from the perspective of the suttas.



                            See also comments under this question, I think you assume that Nagarjuna's Middle Way is Buddhism -- and 'that "dharma has no self-nature" is a basic foundation in Buddhism' -- which I think isn't so.



                            I don't want to say that "Nagarjuna isn't Buddhism" but I think there's a school (Theravada) for whom Nagarjuna isn't canonical and to whom a statement like "dharma has no self-nature" is a bit far-fetched, possibly heretical, maybe novel at best, I don't know -- anyway, who aren't familiar with Nagarjuna's doctrine.



                            I think that a more-orthodox (according to the suttas) summary of Buddhism might be something like:




                            • The Buddha taught about "suffering and cessation" (of suffering)

                            • The way (to end suffering) has components including "ethics, mindfulness, and wisdom"


                            I think that's maybe the shortest summary.



                            I find it hard to see that definition in "interaction between cognitive psychology and cognitive linguistics ... to identify incorrect sememes", so I sympathise with those who disagree with it as a definition. But I for one had never heard the word "sememe" before this, so maybe that definition makes more sense to you than it does to me. But perhaps you're not wrong, either, and that what you're saying reflects Buddhist doctrine that "right view" is important, and so is "seeing things as they truly are".



                            Still if that (i.e. "right view") is all you're talking about, I think that Buddhism is more than that.



                            Incidentally I don't see that the suttas identify "illusion of transparency" as a cause of dispute -- more likely conceit (e.g. "my view is superior to yours"). You might be onto something with "naïve realism", I think that papañca is identified as the cause of (e.g. sectarian) disputes, defined e.g. here and here, and "reification" might be part of that.






                            share|improve this answer















                            In the post in question:




                            • You use the parable of the elephant as an example (which is in a sutta about sectarian disputes)

                            • You say that "Buddhism is strongly about this interaction between cognitive psychology and cognitive linguistic"


                            When I first read that I think that's an unorthodox and unrecognisable summary of Buddhism, or at least, it is so from the perspective of the suttas.



                            See also comments under this question, I think you assume that Nagarjuna's Middle Way is Buddhism -- and 'that "dharma has no self-nature" is a basic foundation in Buddhism' -- which I think isn't so.



                            I don't want to say that "Nagarjuna isn't Buddhism" but I think there's a school (Theravada) for whom Nagarjuna isn't canonical and to whom a statement like "dharma has no self-nature" is a bit far-fetched, possibly heretical, maybe novel at best, I don't know -- anyway, who aren't familiar with Nagarjuna's doctrine.



                            I think that a more-orthodox (according to the suttas) summary of Buddhism might be something like:




                            • The Buddha taught about "suffering and cessation" (of suffering)

                            • The way (to end suffering) has components including "ethics, mindfulness, and wisdom"


                            I think that's maybe the shortest summary.



                            I find it hard to see that definition in "interaction between cognitive psychology and cognitive linguistics ... to identify incorrect sememes", so I sympathise with those who disagree with it as a definition. But I for one had never heard the word "sememe" before this, so maybe that definition makes more sense to you than it does to me. But perhaps you're not wrong, either, and that what you're saying reflects Buddhist doctrine that "right view" is important, and so is "seeing things as they truly are".



                            Still if that (i.e. "right view") is all you're talking about, I think that Buddhism is more than that.



                            Incidentally I don't see that the suttas identify "illusion of transparency" as a cause of dispute -- more likely conceit (e.g. "my view is superior to yours"). You might be onto something with "naïve realism", I think that papañca is identified as the cause of (e.g. sectarian) disputes, defined e.g. here and here, and "reification" might be part of that.







                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited 3 hours ago

























                            answered 3 hours ago









                            ChrisWChrisW

                            29.4k42485




                            29.4k42485






























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